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Yeah, get the therapy on a Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna message to me to just uh set up. Do you want to hear a copy? Uh Okay. Trying to super happening myself. It's my shit. It might be one of, you know, between the rich. Yes, I'm always uh so I'll supervise Abdel Big Forceps and you can tell me about supervising him. Okay? Yeah, he's very nice. Like, are you? Thanks for your presentation, see for your phd. Sorry, I'm a day one of the trainers and uh for your php. Do you? Um uh So I had funding someone to, I was quite lucky because I kind of cancer did. They was project, it was already on knowing. So university version uh I thought it was already on them was about sepsis. Whereas mine mountains actually went to University of Birmingham, the additional part of uh coming 12. Uh uh Yes, it's, oh my, it was kind of spotted, it was sponsorship. So I, I had 2000 every month. Electrician's uh it was 101 it was like 10 Freddy's which have uh you're right. I want to stage, this is just like um I, uh, so I did it after I started my training, uh, website, you, you get invited to interview and then, uh, and then the academic is kind of like power a little ongoing where you have to get, uh, stuff. So you have to do, uh, uh, questions. Uh, uh, uh, yeah, I still, uh, okay. Uh, oh, uh, oh, uh, yeah. Okay. Okay. So you've done your election? You've got like, uh, yeah. Uh uh Yeah, but uh I think uh no, he's honestly I can start. Yeah. Okay. Cancer. All right. Hi, everyone. Thanks very much for joining and for those of you joining online. Welcome. So, this is the first time you're doing. It's called a research repair workshop, which means you have an idea. You don't know how to proceed. You have data. They're just sitting for 23 years. You're feeling guilty every time you look at it because you spend so much effort and time. But then you actually haven't done anything with it or you've written something you've submitted, it, kept getting rejected and then you lost heart and they're sitting on the pile somewhere. Um So, oh, you want to write a grant and you want to know how to go about it? So, anything that we, you want to bring to the table today we can discuss? So who wants to go first? I can do that? Yeah. Thank you prof. So, um I essentially want to find out about So this is at a proposal stage. Um It's an idea that I thought about, it's a question I have in my mind and I don't know how to go on about it really. So I want to see obstetric outcomes in a particular cohort of women who had a particular kind of fertility preservation method. And then they have gone on to have Children. I want to find obstetric outcomes in this particular cohort and I don't know how to go on about it. Okay. Um So you want to look at the rate, the outcome rate following this intervention? Yeah. So uh what happened in their pregnancies? What kind of complications they had? What kind of birds they had? Um what were their modes of delivery? Um And then, then within complications, is there any correlation between um compared to uh you know, healthy population, whether there's an increased risk of um preeclampsia in this particular cohort, um small babies or miscarriage even. So, um there is a gap, I know there is a gap because I've done a preliminary search, but I don't know how to design it. Okay. So it's a comparative go, which is exactly what you should do. Ideally, a randomized trial is better if you're going to look at the effect of the intervention, if you don't have a trial. And the next best thing is actually having a comparative cohort that is matched. Uh And it depends on what you want to do whether you actually want to apply for a grant in that area. And you want to look at the preliminary evidence out there. In that case, I would say, do a systematic review and see what's out there. And then you can actually publish that. Uh and then say, okay, this is it. And now we need a trial and that lays the groundwork if you're going to apply for a proposal or you might have access to good primary data already. And then in that case, you have to see if the virus, this data, where are these data coming from? If these are routinely collected data, then you need to get the approvals because you need ethics approval for this. And then you can do the analysis and you can do or it could be that there are existing studies out there. In which case, you need to go through a data sharing agreement with them. And you can actually, I would suggest talk to multiple people who have done the studies and get their individual data and then do that. So I think the main thing that you need to decide is what do you want to do? Do you want to apply for a funding a grant proposal or actually do you have the time and energy to look at all of the primary data and do the analysis yourself? Then in that case, then this is what I would suggest. Harry sure is this ovarian tissue cryopreservation and the outcome in women who had transplantation of the tissue back and then you want to know the life birth. So you see there are only a few centers in the world who do that. So I think really the right way to do this would be to have all those centers into a collaborative partnership, you know, and agree on a set of variables that you would gather in terms of patient uh demographic variables, clinical variables. And then of course, outcome variables, you know, and if you have a harmonized data capture framework, then you all agree, then all these centers could start to report on those on those pregnancy outcomes. Um And then, then you would have it, I think because this is only a few centers that are, that are doing it. I think that would be the most useful thing to do. So I think the perhaps as with all research, I think the success of this enterprise would depend on you building a team of people who are like minded who agree that this is important and willing to play ball with you. If you have that, then this, this would this would work. And if you have that team, then what I would say is to generate some pilot data so that, you know, when you apply for funding, as Chocula said, you're not going with a blank sheet, you're going with, look, you know, I've got some data limited data doesn't tell the full story. But if you were to fund me, then I can expand this collaborative network, I can produce, you know, more robust uh findings that way. But I think it's very worthwhile. I mean, there is a debate about when should you use variant tissue cryopreservation and when, when you shouldn't, but nobody is debating the role of this in pre pubertal cancer Children. You know, this is the only fertility preservation option for them. And they would want to know the only reason that you're chopping off a little bit of the ovary and preserving it is so that they would have a chance of, of a pregnancy later on. And so I think in terms of funding, I would pursue that line because cancer and Children, you know, you're much more likely to get traction from a funder, uh than say, for benign conditions like endometriosis, you might want to put away some tissue. But, you know, it may not be, it may not have the traction in terms of funding. Thank you so much. That was really helpful. Thank you. Anybody else has got any other, do you want to? I have a question about funding when you apply for a grant or several grant senates approved, what does the funding go towards? Is there a breakdown of different categories? Yes. So it depends on the funder. Uh but as a minimum, the funder will always fund you for the staff costs. Okay. Uh If it's a project staff cost, uh they will also fund for consumables if it's a lab project or even if it's a uh systematic review of primary study computers and those are all Commander Consumables, um, they will fund you for travel uh and for dissemination these days. A lot of journals do ask for money to make it open access, including uh BMJ if it's a funded project, uh all of these will go under the request. If it is a funder is a charity like welcome trust or well being of women. Uh in UK, these are the the charities that fund, then they will not fund what are called the overheads for the institution like the estate cost. And so these are the routinely um calculated cost. But if it's an N H are funded one, then they will also fund additional one. So you, the best thing to do is for you to first identify okay, how big the project is going to be, how long it's going to be? How many people are needed to do this project? What should be their expertise at what level of expertise, your research fellow, higher grade or research associate a bit lower grade and then link with the university. If you're going through as part of the university, that is always somebody in the university who does these costing as they are based in the R and D office and then they actually will put it all together, but they like you to contact them much, much earlier and they will give you a figure, but it might be a bit too high than what you want and then you then have to tweak it. Okay. Maybe you need to think about reducing the duration or removing one of the staff costs. So it's like a back and forth, um, costing. But the thing to remember is most funders would fund. So I wouldn't necessarily reduce it just to make it competitive because the funders will see it through uh that you're making it lower and it's not sustainable. So the grand scheme of things, they do want to fund projects that are viable and they're going to deliver. So don't worry too much about the money you go asking is a bit too much. If it's a good project, they, they will fund it. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, getting funding is so important. Uh If you're doing it for the first time, um and you don't have a track record, you haven't got funding before, you haven't done research, then it's near enough impossible to get money from a national scheme. Uh because they, you know, funders are like investors. Um you know, they want to invest in people and projects where there is some assurance that they will get a return on the investment. And, you know, with, uh you know, if you had, I don't know, a million pounds, you would probably take it to a bank or an investor with the name, won't you? Because you know that there are systems and processes and structures and track record. That would mean that your money, your investment is looked after and there's a return on that investment and funders are no different and you wouldn't take it to an uncle and say, look, I've got a million pounds. Can you just look after this and give me a return on it? Because your uncle may be a great person, but it doesn't have that track record and you know, it might just Quander the million pounds, isn't it? So, funders are no different. They're trying to make investment and it's really fascinating. We got a grant from the Gates Foundation. They don't even call it a grant application. They call it an investment document. So the form that we are filling out uh grant application if you like is called an investment document, that's how the funder really sees it. So how can you as a first time person trying to get research grants? How do you go about, you know, um uh securing grants, the first is look for any local pots, you know. So if you're within your hospital, if there is a springboard, you know, research fellow shape or grant it maybe 70,000, but that's a good way to start to build up that track record and you know, deliver on it. So that other funders can say, yeah, okay. This person can take a pot of money and do something with it and give a return. And then when you upped the game and go for national level funding, whether it's for fellowships or projects or whatever, they may be, your best chance is by aligning yourself with an established academic, you know, so you need to find someone like, you know, she Akilah and say, look, these are my ideas and you would get the critical input for a start. But also you would need that, you know, um uh the experience and the track record that uh academic would bring to convince the funder that they should give you the money, you know, and these days there are some really good schemes where you can go as an associate P I call P I. So if it's your idea and you're going to drive it forward, the recognition will be there, you know, but you would need to kind of go with someone. So I think, you know, the medical students we saw, right, you guys, the fact that you're able to find the right mentorship and guidance, you know, I think was so important in your achieving what, what you did. And I think that is also true for trainees, I think they, you know, they need to associate themselves and then uh you know, the the whoever is associating with would be able to hopefully guide you now be a bit ruthless with whoever is associating, there might be a big name, you know, professor. So, and so in your department asked them? Okay. Well, what's your track record? You know, have you got an increase in grants and have you taken a fellowship application and seen it through? You know, and if they said, oh, you know, I did, you know about 20 years ago, then you won't politely, you know, move away and find somebody who, you know, who is active. And so I think that would be very important too, uh to some extent, ride the wave, you know, find, you know, where things are happening and uh and associate yourself so that you can get your 1st, 2nd, 3rd grand and then of course, 1st, 2nd, 3rd grand, you've got it, then you, you know, you would soon be able to fly solo, you know, and there should be a plan for that also in place. But yeah, getting the first one is hard, it's really hard. Um But there are ways in which you can make it, you know, easy for yourself. Can I just give you that? I think you should not forget about putting funding for. Uh I think it's important to remember to put funding for PPI as well, patient and public involvement because that's becoming more important, isn't it? And we often forget to, we think they're going to do it voluntary, but quite often now they're asking for you know quite rightly for that time. And I think we should remember to involve that. Absolutely has mean next, next door, I think that's what they're doing. PPI has cost for PPI uh and, and to add to be a success with the three, we, we also do the funding boards, three things we look for. One is the project, is it asking me the, the important question? Uh is it asking the right question? And are you telling um your proposal making sense and how you're going to do it and the time? So everything to do with the project, the timeline is a sense of the whole thing. The second one is the team, okay. The team is the team capable of delivering. Have they done this before? And that's why I was telling hydra they want to do, you need to establish a track record, you can't just jump in and put in the ground for something. There is nothing anywhere with the name linked to it. So they want to look at the track record of the team, what funding they've got before have they delivered on time? So the team is important. The third one is where are they based? Do they have an institution that actually is able to support them? Are they're partnering institutions as well? Okay. Um How are they actually linked? Do they have the expertise? These are the three things that are most important within the project? Has PPI with NIH are one that is half of it is PPI uh it's so critical the PPI work. Um Thank you. And, and rightly so, I mean, uh in a grant giving panel, there are patient representatives and they have uh you know, a very strong voice, all the, you know, clinicians. So the researchers might say, oh, this is, you know, this is not so important, but if the patient and layer of present, it'd says, you know, I think this is actually really important from our perspective, then it flies, you know, and they can veto and, you know, so, you know, it's really important to appreciate that this is a real thing and, and engage patient's and lay public in a robust manner, you know, not just, you know, say, look, you know, I'm doing this project. Are you happy with it? Yeah. Okay, fine. You know, I'll put your name down, know you really have to engage um them properly. So that's the next. Yeah. Yeah. So we have an online question. How important is the sustainability of the project for funders? Uh They do want to know what's going to happen after this. So if you're doing a pilot, they want to know how are you going to a full scale trial? If you do a full scale trial, they want to know how it's going to be implemented. But from the funders perspective, the main thing is what are you going to do in the three years, it comes in terms of the importance, okay, doesn't have legs to go any further. If you're doing an intervention, that's not going to go anywhere. That doesn't make sense. So they do like to see a signal on where this is going. Um That's important. Uh But the main priority is what are you going to do to do now? Um With the time, very much agree with that. So I think sustainability is important and there are some red flags. So for example, if you're proposing an intervention that is a million pound a shot, then they know that even if it's proven to be highly effective, this is not really going to work, you know, at, at scale. Um So uh so that such red flags, you need to be mindful. So if you're proposing some fancy technology that is very expensive, then people would ask the question, you know, is this really relevant, is it sustainable scalable and so on? But generally speaking, there is a hierarchical approach, you take an intervention, you establish its effectiveness, you know, and safety and then we will, you know, also we would do healthy economic evaluation to see if it's kind of broadly affordable, then you hand it over to the policymakers in a sense, you know, and then they would decide, okay, what's the scope of this for large scale implementation and uh and scale up uh and, and, and sustaining it all over time. I think the funders are turning into this though. So they often ask you for what's called a pathways to impact assessment. You know, MRC I think asks for a pathway, they stopped doing that. Yeah, pathways to impact away exactly a separate annex way. You would say how will this be used in practice and how would it be scaled up and so on? That's no longer there because they appreciate it's uh it's a multi stage process, you know, you can't really see it all the way to the, to the end in that way. Yeah, thank you. I think we have time for one more question. If anybody else has a question, good question with comments. Um Again, coming to the PPI and I'm only bringing this up because I've been caught out. It's the language that you use when you're writing, they have to be able to understand it. Uh So you have to not use your very technical medical language, especially in the, the introduction, they need to understand it, especially in that first ground that you put in. The second is probably not that. But the first one, those lay people have to understand completely agree that they're, they're actually tools online tools that you can look at the readability. The Dunning Kruger think, I don't know, maybe I'm not, there's a hole there like three Fleischer reading scale. There are, there are multiple things. So you actually Google on the readability index and you can put in and you'll say at what level they say it has to be read by uh somebody who's entering secondary school, that's the level they're looking for, for a, for a lay summary and, and clarity is important because you have to remember the board compresses of not people in your specialty. So you have to, you're writing to neurologist and gastroenterologist and health economist. So that is you, you have to really have the clarity and write it. Asthma. I usually ask my daughter who's a secondary school to read any of my grand proposals. And if she understands it, then I know my, my colleagues at the panel will understand and she's usually she will say to, I don't understand. I don't, it's not flowing. So yeah, get something, somebody at school to read it and see, I couldn't agree more. I think maybe this should be one of the really important takeaway message is, you know, and the way that you get miscued is that in the grant application, it would say lay summary, you know. And so that did you write it, you know, very clearly a five year old can understand it, you know, rest of it you think? Well, I've done the layer summary. Now let me get as technical as I want to and use lots of jargon. It's a massive mistake because around the grant giving panel, they will be health economists, they will be qualitative research is there are people who are not in your field at all, you know, and they would be reading it and they're not just going to be reading the late summary. They, they would read the whole application. So if you haven't actually written it, like as though the whole application, you know, needs to be read by a layperson, then you have done yourself a massive disservice, you know. Uh So I think really treat every bit of it as though it is written for someone who is 11 12, you know, is able to understand it. Yeah, thank you everyone. Thank you. So it's time to move on now. Online participants, please move on to your next session and thank you for in person people. You were doing back down. Why speak Helen back. Yeah, an online question which I said, I'll ask for it. Uh Yeah. Uh Let's come in and the rest in Greek. Hi, welcome and welcome to the online participants who are joining us. Uh So it's um Shaquille, a tan gritty numb and Ari Kumar, same from University of Birmingham. So this is a research repair workshop is the first time you're doing something like this and this is to help troubleshoot. You might have some data that's sitting and you just feel guilty every time you're looking at it because you spent ages collecting the data. But then then you don't know what to do with it or maybe within the analysis, you submitted it got rejected and you lost heart and, and that was it or maybe you written up and nobody has actually given you any input or you want to write a paper or you want to apply for a grant. So anything that you think you're struck, you're here to sort of help you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So, um yeah, put your questions to us. I think we have a question already online. So let's take that first and then uh we can move on to the uh to the audience in the room. Okay. So we've been asked in many grant applications, health economics and epidemiological support required cannot be provided by L MC and funders don't want it to be based outside. So how do we get around this? I think that's a really important question. So certainly if you're applying to HTA. So health technology assessment, which is a major funder for trials within NIH, are they expect you to have health economics uh component in it? In fact, if you don't have it, you have to justify why that is the case. If you're doing more basic science or translation a work and you're applying to say M R C or welcome trust, you don't need to normally have health economics uh in it because they understand that this is kind of earlier stage research, you know, it's only when it gets closer and closer to practice than health economics becomes relevant. But many of the applications, you know, there's an expectation that you would either have health economics or you would justify why you don't need it. You know. So how do you deal with that? Now, this could also be um uh this question could be not just for health economics, but also for qualitative research. As you said, you may not have the local capacity. So this is where finding your strength within a network becomes really important. The way that you access all kinds of specialist skills and knowledge and expertise is within a network, right? So it may be that you're applying from, I don't know, you know, from Kenya, but within your academic network, you might have University of Birmingham and University of Birmingham has a health economic facility and it may be that, you know, that's where you will get the support now to the funder. Also, this would look good, you know, it would seem like this is a truly national, you know, international application that draws on strength from different parts of the network. So I think all of you guys, if you're into clinical research, probably even for basic science research and cancellation or research, this is true, your strength, your strength will be in the network that you have, you are as strong as the network that you have that you're able to tap into, you know, and so that's where I would find the solution. I would find it. I mean, yes, it is possible, you can find somebody locally train them up and you know, get them to do a job, but it may not be to the standard that a funder expect. So I think I would tap into a network as opposed to um trying to kind of locally create that solution. Uh And funders are sensible, right? Um They're not going to say, okay, you have to find somebody in Kenya if nobody exist. The main thing is health economic is always an add on the funders want to fund the main project. And then you, you have to be very transparent and I look at grant applications, just talk to the funder, talk to the reviewer. They're not like super heavenly bodies sitting somewhere. Say look, this is a really important question. We really have to look at the cost implications, but we do not have the capacity and capability in Kenya. And therefore we are going to link with a partner in Birmingham. But within the grant we're going to build in a capacity building. So we are then going to train somebody in Kenya. So if you fund us, you not only get a good project which gives the cost, but you also will be funding somebody who can then come for the next application. They like to see this. Everybody wants to feel good, right? Then they think, oh yes. Oh wow. OK. I'm doing something good and helping these guys who don't have uh they're all health economists in low middle income countries. For example, we work with Buenos Aires in Argentina for MRC funded one. They have I E X the Institute of Effectiveness and Clinic. Yeah. So they do uh economic health economics one and W H O does work with them. So if you go look at the wh of collaborating centers in low middle income countries, they do have. But as Harris said, it's very hard to go cold and you can't just randomly choose the W H 0 cc and say, can you do healthy? It's much better that you tell the funder up front saying I'm already working in this network. I don't have it, but this is it and then it's up to the funder, they usually would not reject the whole proposal just they would come back to you. They usually have a dialogue with you as well. Once they like the project, they will say, okay, we like this, but they would remove the health economics, they might say, or they might say, okay, reduce it or just do a capacity building. So it's not like certain stone funders are very, very flexible when they want to fund. Uh There's always a bit of dialogue that goes back and forth once they actually want to fund your project. So I would not be afraid and also talk to the funding manager even before you put in the application. So these are brilliant guys know we heard from Charlotte Island today from MRC. She's the first point of call, you talk to her beforehand and they give some good guidance. Thank you. Any other questions from the group? Yeah. Um Thank you very much for all the support that you've been giving us and training and workshops. This has really been very helpful. I was just wondering that I'm a master's student and currently um during um a quantitative um secondary data analysis, which does not in mice, my um data is not waited and therefore, I cannot publish the paper. And I'm told like, OK, once you're done because it's so like, I don't have so much time to start doing weights and everything. So once I'm done, I have to like redo the whole analysis again with the application of weight. So I was just wondering how much support can you give me if I need um to reach out for excess support in terms of maybe trainings or, or just extra like um guidance in publications? Um If I can reach out to this kind of uh thank you. There is a quote that is attributed to Einstein and it, there are many quotes that I attributed to Einstein. But this one is an authentic when it's, you know, he definitely said this and that is that uh he said if he gave me an hour to solve a problem and my life depended on it, then I would spend 50 minutes on the question and 10 minutes on the answer, right? He wasn't trying to say that like, you know, I'm so clever that I can solve the problem in 10 minutes. But he was really trying to say there is that spend so much time on the question because if you get the question right, then everything else follows from that, you know, it's really important. So the question has to be as well. Professor Wendy Graham was saying, you know, is there an appetite for people to take up your work and you know, use it in practice and so on? Because that is a worthwhile question to pursue and if it's not there, it doesn't matter how interesting you think it may be, you may not want to invest time and effort in that. So going back to your question, you've got a set of data and that set of data, you're able to use it for masters, but you can't use it for publication because it doesn't have something in it at the moment. Is that roughly right? Okay. Yeah. Thank you. So it's a longitudinal survey. So I'm just wondering just the aspect of weight is not there like do you guys support in quantity? Okay. So what you need to do this is a very specific problem that's good. You know, you've got a very specific problem. You need to find a methodology ist or statistician who can look at the data, look at what the data can and can't do. And what is it that your research question that, you know, you're trying to answer with this data and then you need to put that very specific question to that methodology ist or the statistician to say, can I or can't I do this? You know, I think. So, are you asking whether the two of us can do that? You know, where are you, where are you at the moment based where university? Okay. Okay. Um That's funny because once there was a time when I had to send somebody from here to Aberdeen to get statistical support. Um But the answer is yes, you know, uh you can pass it bias but, you know, you might be able to get that support locally that is always better in that, you know, you can keep returning to them and they have an obligation to provide this support. But if you can't find that support by all means, um reach out to us because, you know, the whole concept of Glow is that it creates a community, as I mentioned earlier, it creates a network, we are part of your network, you know, you have a lifetime pass in this network. So, yeah, the short answer is uh you can pass it by us and we can, you know, we can have a look at that, that would be helpful. So Aberdeen has got one of the best statistical units there. Yeah. So we, we went there and we actually had a meeting with them and it also got a senior lecturer called Married Black who is fantastic. And Ben Mole who's here today. He's still some visiting here. He's actually a professor in Aberdeen and he's actually going to travel to Aberdeen. And Ben's really brilliant in actually mentoring young researchers. And Ben Mole mentored so many young researchers in Netherlands and continues to do that um medical students, postgraduate students. So I would suggest so I probably you probably didn't know that he was linked with Aberdeen. So he is around his, he was sitting down or maybe he's just left, but he's actually planning to go to Aberdeen next week. He said, find him. Um uh we can give you his email. Um John has his email um so email him and then meet up with him. So Ari said it's always um easier for you to link in with your own network. And you also uh they also know who you are as well because the end of the day, your growth is going to be in a place where you are unless it's a completely barren area of nothing to grow. Whereas Aberdeen is not like that, it is actually a fertile ground and they are very, very supportive. So yeah, I talk to them and if not, but I am really confident that they will support you. Any other worries. What, what has kept you up in the night could be passed that Michael on there. Um This is my own question. Um So you both know that I really love global maternal health research. How important is it, do you think for me to find a niche within that or do you think global maternal health is enough of a niche on its own? It's a very good question and I think it applies, not just a global maternal health, but you know, any kind of research, this the question of, you know, how diversified you need to be so that you're not putting all your eggs in one basket versus how focused do you need to be? So that people start to take you seriously, you know, uh they don't see you as the jack of all trade. You know, I my my advice on that is that um at a junior and intermediate level, you're really better off kind of veering more towards the the diversified portfolio route. You know, because you don't yet perhaps fully know what deeply motivates you, you don't yet fully have an understanding about the funding landscape. You don't yet fully know what your clinical versus non clinical, you know, research world might might look like. So when, you know, when you have limited information, trying to pin your stripes on, you know, one particular issue can mean that you are narrowing it far too early, you know, but as you move further forward, at some stage, you will need to start to focus and narrow so that people will come to know your middle name is, you know, Catherine sepsis dunlop, you know, you need to get to that level so that, you know, people will take you seriously. You see what I mean? So I think um uh so I think at an intermediate level, I would say just keep a slightly broad portfolio, I would say the same thing. I tell my daughters when they don't know what subject to take in GCC or a level, don't take it if you hate it, okay, you can diversify. But there's certain things you will say that actually I'm not going to touch it okay. It could be oncology or uh something that actually you think it's not you. So I will suggest make a list of things okay. I am not going to do it which even if it's going to be something that's really. So once you do that, then the next step is okay. What are you going to do with your diverse? But where is it going to take you if you're going to take a on a topic that's not really in your interest, but you think it's going to land you a high impact publication or is going to land you the first grant, then I will suggest go for it because at the end of the day, that track record then allows you to be successful when you go into your sepsis grant for example, because at that time, funders don't never look okay. Has she done got a grant and sepsis? They only want to see how she got any grants as you got a high impact publication. So for those areas that you, you think you can, you're okay to diversify. Um I would suggest go and then you can and I would still suggest have something that maybe, I don't know, maybe you look at Menorrhagia, for example, you may not want to, but you could look at it from a methodology angle. So if you work on it in a network meta analysis and you learn it as a skill, that skill will actually help. If you, when you come at a later date, a sepsis. So as you grow, if you only focus on one topic, you won't have the opportunity to learn the various methodologies which do come in hand. When you become a, a fully grown um senior academic, you really need your methodologies to be to your foundation to be very strong. Um That allows you to do that. I hope that answers. I'm not sure if at the end of they don't do something that you don't like. Um So conversely, if you are coming to research later in training, so S D five F D S T six kind of level um and if you want to be able to do some research kind of going forward after C C T one is there a kind of type in terms of practicalities of actually getting jobs and stuff a little bit as well. Is there a practical time when it would be say, is post CCT too late to do an MD or research or unequally? Um If you are going to kind of start late, do you need to go in and do, uh rather than just an additional bachelors, you best kind of aim for phd if something suitable is available. Good question. Uh The uh I would ask you to examine your motives. You know, I would ask you to consider why am I doing this? You know, what's the big picture here? You know, what's driving me to, to, to even think about research? If the answer is I just need to get one or two papers on my CV, so that I get the post that I want, that's completely legitimate. You know, it's a means to an end, right? Then you choose a subject, you choose the one that would give you an output reasonably, you know, within a tight timeframe with the minimum amount of effort. And ideally you do it, get it over and done with a couple of papers in your CV. You know, a couple of points when you are scored for consultant post you're in, that's fine, you know, and I think that that's, you know, sometimes people think, well, you know, that doesn't seem like a noble, you know, uh end of it, but we do whole host of things to improve our prospects of getting a decent job. And if this is what you need to do, then I'm all for it. You know, I don't see a problem with it, you know. But if your motive is different, if you said, look, you know, I've seen a problem, uh, you know, when I traveled out to Kenya, I did three months of observation, there is a terrible problem with sepsis, you know, and in my lifetime, I want to do something meaningful to have an impact on this. Then I think you need to play the slower, longer game. You know, there are no quick fixes if there were, that would have been implemented already, you know, and then you are saying, you know, what an MD or a phd would give me the time, uh the protected time to, to really apply myself, you know, and I would say those who want to do an MD or a phd, they really need to be clear about their motive because within the first 3 to 6 months, they will realize this is bloody hard work, you know, and if your motive was somewhat, you know, uh I don't want to call it shallow, but you know what I mean? If, if it wasn't deeply rooted, then you are now thinking, oh, maybe I should quit, you know, for you to, to, to, to stick with it and keep going your motive needs to be deeply rooted. And if that is the case, then this is what I would say any time is perfect time. You know, if you can do it now do it. Now, if you want to do it, you know, later on as an S P R, that's completely fine. If you want to do it as a consultant, you know, part time while doing a and, and it's just post do it, you know, and the beautiful thing now is that the funders are working up to the reality that, you know, there are people, you know, with very different backgrounds, you know, they have their consultant, they've been consultants for some years, they won't do research. Well, there needs to be a pathway for them to enter, you know, research and anemia and there are opportunities now, you know, for uh for that. So I think the right time is actually whenever you think you are deeply motivated to do it and then you need to find the right people and get going and the nice thing is you can get going part time, you see what I mean, you can test things out while holding out of the job and, you know, and, and so so yeah, I fully agree. There is no such thing as this is not the right time. I, I actually have a phd student who is a consultant, um fertility consultant working full time and she's doing her phd and she just completed it. Uh And her motivation was she wants to supervise other phd students and she felt that she has to have the degree herself before she does that. And also any hr has got funding um for NHS consultants, they fund two sessions as well. Um So the main thing I would say is linked with an academic who actually is there to support you and uh and then you can actually work around with your job plan and things as a consultant. So it's never too late. Yes, opportunities for non clinical colleagues as well. Which one then? Hr one that NHS, only for NHS uh NHS consultants, they, they fund for two sessions is called, it's called an A I forgotten the funding, the fund for two sessions. But for the non clinical ones, it's a bit harder because so the NHS is easier because they say you're a consultant or a PPO CCT, whether non clinical it's hard for the funder to say you, you are this and I'm only going to fund you for two sessions. Uh They do have fun for allied health professionals. They do um fund that, I don't know. I read, you know, for non clinical uh medication would be nice, you know, will be the next step you suggest to reconnect. Okay. I think that's a really good question. I think the pathways are not so well worked out for non clinical researchers as it is for clinical researchers and often post doctoral non clinical postdoctoral uh fellows I often referred to as the lost tribe, you know, uh for this reason. But what I would say is that the way to, to deal with that is to acquire highly transferable, highly desirable skills. You know, if you're a trialist, if you are a health economist, if you are a systematic reviewer, then you are needed and you're needed badly, you know, and then you are going to find the opportunities to kind of, you know, progress in your career. So I think for non clinical researchers, that the really important thing is to acquire skills and knowledge that are truly valued within the research world, you know, at large, it may be operating. I don't know, you know, a piece of uh uh machine in the laboratory that is quite technical that that only you are able to do. But I think it's acquiring that, that, you know, that niche skill that would put you uh give you the opportunities, open the doors. Thank you very much. I'm afraid I'm going to have to close this workshop now. We've got so lots of thanks on the chat saying it's really nice talk. Many thanks to everybody. So if you guys move on to the next room and online people, if you can move on to your next session, thank you. You start the same for GPS. I have these questions. Are they got uh Africa whatever, done, all sorts of things, including child. Would it be the same thing? I think that's a good question here. Yeah. Yeah. So, where I didn't know that they have opened it up, it's just quite recent. This is quite recent. Yeah. Where do I do? Uh, uh, you can just, yeah, because many might, might find it attractive. Yeah. Yeah. They will have a lot of experience and they will have motivation by that time and they did a excellent Yeah. Uh huh. But this is the professorial delegation. All right, welcome everyone. Um Thank you know, which we welcome everyone and, and welcome for those joining us online. Um So this is, this workshop is a what we call a research repair workshop. And this is if you have got data that's been sitting on your shelves and you feel so guilty because you spend so much time and effort collecting it, but then it's stuck in the analysis stage or you've submitted it, it's bounced back and then you lost heart or you want to talk about a research proposal, how to go about it or about the paperwork at the fund or a research carrier. So, anything that you think needs to be discussed, so it's more like an open forum and we're here to, to provide suggestions and see what you want. Any questions, what inspired you both to get into research in the first place. Uh I would like to say something, I only wanted to travel the world and go to different places and then see how things are done. And to me, rather than being a clinician in one place, research allowed me to do that. But I think at, at a much more deeper level, um doing research sort of allowed me to get the big picture. And I just felt very constrained just working in one hospital and looking after hundreds of thousands of women when I actually can do something that's going to impact on millions. Uh And that's actually the bigger, bigger, bigger picture. But when I was very young and very naive at that time, my immediate goal was okay. I just don't want to only do the clinical training. I actually want to do something larger than just going into the L A T the specialist rotation. Um So, uh and then once I came in, it was people like uh R E, it was people like Khalid who was my supervisor Javier Tamora and it is just a joy of doing research. There's a special joy that you feel adrenaline rush that you get when you do the analysis and you see that ourselves or when you get a grant, okay. It's a short lived one because the work has to be done or when you see your work in the guidelines. So it's, I mean, being an obstetrician, you already are addicted to the adrenaline rush when you deliver a baby or you save somebody's life. It's like uh it's a joy and I always think that they pay me for something which I would do any how, how it is. Yeah. Thank you, Shakeel. I'll give you the honest answer. But within the four walls, okay. I know within the, within the virtual four walls too. So, uh the reason I came into uh to research was because I was stuck, I was trying to become a doctor in obscene Gynie and I made lots of applications. I wasn't even getting shortlisted, let alone being interviewed. So I thought I should really go and become a G P because I wasn't cut out to be an O N G doctor. And at this point, someone said to me, look, you know, do a bit of research and publish one or two papers, you know, you might have a better chance of uh getting through uh the program. And my immediate thinking was, look, you know, um uh 22 streams of thoughts. One was that you need to be very clever uh to be a researcher and I didn't consider myself to be that, you know, and the other is, you know, a researchers life is, is a dull one. You know, you are in the laboratory, you know, titrating all day. Why would you want to do that? Right. Uh But I thought, well, you know, but I am stuck. So I, I started to uh to work with Khalid Khan uh to do some uh some research. And then I realized my word, this is just amazing. I couldn't have, you know, I couldn't have enough of it, learning new things, meeting people, like minded people who are just burning with passion to, to do some, some good. Um And um and really producing output that could transform care in places that you don't even know, exist, you know, somewhere in the world what you're putting out could be, could be of value. And so the whole thing, you know, became my life. So, you know, I was actually pushed into it out of, out of necessity. And I guess the lesson in there is that when, you know, does are getting shut on you, you know, on your face, uh it feels hard and, you know, I was a very keen enthusiastic S H O and senior S H O U know Cingrani, I would do all the four steps, all the one too. So I will stay on after my shift, you know, to get extra training and so on. But I couldn't get a reduced role post at the time. But the fact that the doors were getting shut on my face was what put me into uh another track, you know, and now I can't imagine a life without, without research that is far more important to me than, you know, uh the clinical work, if I were to be honest with you. So I think Um, yeah, you know, uh, setbacks, what might appear as, as setbacks in your lives are sometimes and if you, if you have a faith it's good if you don't have faith, call it nature, you know, guiding you, uh, you know, in a part that may be perhaps more productive and, you know, uh, better for you, although you may not know it at the time. Yeah. So that's, uh, rather unorthodox path. What happened? Hi, my name is Alicia and I was just graduated from the University of Leicester. I'm starting my phone post in a couple of weeks. Um So just a little bit about me just so that gives my question context. Um I was quite affected by, oh sorry. Um I was quite affected by COVID in my, in my medical school training. I did my interrelated uh B S C at lead in 2019 to 2020 which was in global Health and it had a research project at the end of the year that was canceled. And also I didn't get a, an elective either. Um So my question is, is in one of the workshops we mentioned earlier that mentorship is really important, especially when you're starting out and researching. Don't have much experience having a lot of guidance in that first project really sets you up for future projects. Now, I'm going into foundation years. I wanted to know what your advice was. Forgetting that mentorship in, in settings which may be, you know, resource limited time limited and, you know, sometimes people don't always have that time to give. So I was wondering if you had any advice on that? Sure. Shall I start? Tequila? Yeah, a really important question. You are going to be busy and whoever you're going to approach for supervision and mentorship and coaching is also going to be busy, you know, so you need to have absolute clarity about what you are trying to achieve and what the other person is able to give you, you know, and so having a frank discussion, not an abstract one, but really frank discussion is important. And in this frank discussion, you need to actually the first thing I would say you need to settle on, it's just how much time you can invest and how much time the supervisor can invest. You know, and because without time you're not going to get very far, you know, all that would result is frustration. You know, you would be waiting for this person to come back to you, but they are busy for the next five months or this person has given you something to do, but you can't do it because you're running around. So frustration, relationship breaks down, you know, you both kind of don't have a positive experience. So that is the first thing, you know, absolute clarity about what you and the other person can do and then really, you know, set aside time to do it, you know, and be realistic with it. You know, we all want to do 10 systematic reviews and one randomized trial in the first year of being a doctor. But you can't, you know, you have to be very realistic about that. The second thing that I would, um I would say uh when you are doing lots of things is that celebrate every small um bit of success that you have along the way. You know, you may not have lance that. First of all the paper like Djamila does, you know, that's an exception. That's really rare as hen's teeth, you know. So what you need to do is that what, you know, you are looking at 100 sets of notes, you know, you've done 10 cents, sets of notes, you know, go and celebrate that because that is success, you know, and that sets you up for the next 10. Now you're 20 you know, and so make sure that you have got lots of small successes you can celebrate because what I see often happening, especially when you are in your, your foundation year doctor or, you know, junior doctor really busy and you've got a big program that would only come to fruition in two or three years. You know, you lose heart along the way. You just think I'm working all the time giving all my time and effort into it, but I'm not seeing anything, you know, so you need to learn to celebrate the small success, uh success is along the way, then that will keep you going, you know, and then related to that is to start a project that is somewhat limited in school. You know, take systematic reviews that can be done in your own time. There are good projects to do when you are, when you have a full time job, right? But systematic reviews vary, you can do a review, your scoping search will tell you the review has got might have 10 to 15 studies or 102 150 studies. You see what I mean? You want to take the one that has 10 to 15 studies because you can see it through within six months over a year and you have a visible output and that gives you the motivation to keep going, you know. So I think I would say absolute clarity about what you want to do and then a negotiated agreement with whoever is going to supervise you, you know, so that you are both clear about it, not just you are clear, but you know, you, you're both clear and then, you know, limiting the scope of the work. You know, normally I say think big, you know, do big but I think here this is better, right? And then celebrating the small successes as you go along, these are strategies that, you know, you could put to use. Think disclaimer. We are neither of us are experimental, this whole research on the experimental medicine side and basic science of talking very much about the other end of the applied health um research and asked me discussed earlier, I would say going into F one is a new job for you just settle in first. That's got all the time in the world. You don't need to start right from day one and find you got a clinical commitment and the research one, the thing with the mentor I find is I actually do not believe in the university actually giving you a personal mentor and you have like one hour of meeting with them and then you come out and it's not a mentor is somebody who actually is that part of your journey with you. And, and, and you can actually pick up the phone and say, because who knows you, not just this person being allocated, they give you one hour, you just talk more like a therapist than, and actually a mentor. Uh And, and in terms of the project you're taking on, um this is my flow isn't, it's not applicable to everybody. But the way I look at it is, I would suggest my students to align with a group that's already doing your work. So if you're working with Ari, then ask Harry, what systematic reviews he's got going, what studies is there a role for you? And then you can choose, you can say, look, I only have time to be a second review or do you have a systematic review that can do it that way you don't have the pressure that work is going to be done with or without you, that work is going. It's just not you who's doing it. It's not dependant only solely on you. That's the first step. And then once you're in and then you know that you can deliver and ari knows that you're doing really well and he tells you today and then, yeah, you have the time effort energy and you do fantastic work and you deliver it to the next week and he's like, wow, okay. Well, that's brilliant. The next time something comes, he's going to give you something more and then you do it and then you give it something more because we really have to first assess how much you can do. We don't want to give you the third bit at the beginning. And also it's less pressure on you. It's not like I've given you a project and I got going to chase you because from our experience, trainees and students have got multiple priorities. So we first have to make sure that you have the time you are really passionate about it, you are delivering and once you do it and then you, then that bond happens automatically. And then after that, then you can say, look, I really have a great idea. I think I've done N F and I can start on my own and then we would support you. It's much harder for you to start by saying I've got this huge 1000 data, I'm going to do on Ovarian um preservation and it's got nothing to do with my research projects. Then I would say great idea, but then work with somebody who works on ovarian cryopreservation. So you just have to be aware of what is it that person is doing how you can follow the journey because that guy is not going to change his research track for you is when you're not, not in a bad man or not for you in the sense that we all have a limited time and we've chosen a path and we're traveling and you're not going to do something on no ovarian prior preservation. So you need to find the guy who's traveling along that road and then join up with them and that person becomes a mentor. So it's which journey and which part you want to take. So that's the philosophy with which I work. Yeah, just to, just to add to that, um you know, you need to look after yourself as a foundation year doctor. You know, there are going to be so many demands on you and I think not complicating your life and not over committing to an already stressful period is going to be very important. Um uh You know, you will have plenty of time, you know, to pursue research. Uh So I would say, you know, just ask yourself what is right for you, first and foremost. Yeah. Um just to ask with regards to research because I was so interested, it was so interesting to hear undergraduates, you know, at the level they are, I mean, for us, we would have maybe a very odd one or two undergraduates who would have done very basic research. Um So is it like a requirement for the undergraduate or just if they have some interest? So undergraduate, they may be able to answer better. I think it's part of their curriculum. The thing, they also can take a period off to do some inter collation, they can also do a masters as well. So um be meds I or masters. So that's for they can get selected to do that. But from my experience for the COVID in pregnancy living systematic review, all I wanted was um medical students who are interested and wanted to learn. So I had students who never done any research before. They, they have not even heard the word systematic review before, did not know anything about the search. So we trained them right from the start and gave them the input. So I I just learned myself that it is possible for a student to become a researcher with apart from the basic whatever they're learning in as part of med school curriculum and research. Uh that yes, it it is the training that we give and, and they are engagement with us. If they are motivated and they're working with us, we can't support them. There is nothing that they're less than, uh, than a research assistant or a research associate. Um, they are bright ones. They are, they going to come this far. You know, it seems to me that it would be really important to share your experiences. Hirsche Akilah with the wider world, maybe as a, as a, as a publication on its own, right? You know, how is it that you take a group of medical students who God, you know, a lot of revision to do and lots of other things to be getting on with, but, you know, help them develop in the way that you, you have um uh being able to do and create the conditions for them to do well. Uh I think this would be a great, great interest. I, I think uh you know, uh the students themselves would, would have lots of ideas, but I think sh airing it with the world, I think would be would be phenomenal and you know, you can also show the output you had and then nobody can question the effectiveness of the, of the approach. So I think it would be good to share. Yeah, definitely. When I met with Fiona Godly, the just completed editors in chief of BMJ, she actually wanted to come and meet with the students because all of the living systematically, we were published in the BMJ and just with the COVID and then she, she left her post and we didn't carry it through. But I, I agree, I think this model needs to be sort of shared and the work. So they have the teams, they have a team for searching, they have a team for um study selection. They have a team for quality assessment team for mother to child transmission and as a team leader for each and then they are a senior one and a junior one and the junior one actually shadows for two weeks and they does and then they do the work, the same one the senior does. And once the senior knows that this person is doing the data make, it's actually um there are no discrepancies, then they're allowed to do independently. It's still a two person data extraction. So and, and they have their own whatsapp groups, they have the training videos on how to do that. So they, they do fantastic stuff and we, and we raise the profile, we put them on the web page, we call them student researchers. Um They are given co authorship. I, they get opportunities to present and submit abstract, they present a civil G multiple conferences. Um and we promote them on social media. Uh We help them with their applications. They won the price each year for the women's health interpolation, in fact, for their work. So we also try to boost their academic profile because they're doing work for us and I have to do something for them. So it's less and more like a, like a win win. And I get free labor. Yeah, I get free labor and they get very senior, very senior academic. Who knows exactly what's needed. I know exactly how many points they need for their academic foundation. And I make sure that these students get, I give them joint first authorship. There are support of them, share a first authorship because I know that all four worked on that. And uh it goes, it goes towards what they need. I think that that that's a relationship. It is a symbiotic. We both need each other. It's not a one way relationship. Yeah, just to continue that conversation for us, I think we even have an issue with our postgraduate because they are supposed to do a research activity for us now in year three because we've moved to a four year program. But there are very few of us faculty who are in research and who keenly supervised. So our students are really struggling. Okay. Some of you will find a supportive supervisor, stroke mentor and some of you will not. So it's, it's, it's actually even difficult for them, leave alone undergraduate, nothing and then postgraduates, you know, they're just struggling and sometimes I personally right now I feel I am doing so much of, I mean, I'm so busy with what I am doing that I don't have time for my own, you know, the postgraduate. So I'm supervising. So I'm like, oh my God, you know, how do I balance out this thing? Because they also need a lot of support for me time and then it's like, how do you balance off? It depends on what your postgraduate research requirements or Zaida. So for example, if, if it's okay for them to participate in evidence synthesis or the day healthy surveys, they do that. You're already part of like a program like see safe and we already are doing systematic reviews and we can easily link up and this is something they can actually take as part of their. I do this with. Indeed they, she's got different b um students, they have research. So I think there's a really good opportunity. If it allows, if the institution does allow that, then we can actually provide the joint supervision because these women, we've got like 15 systematic reviews to do. And this can easily be allocated to some of the students who can actually take that as part for us. The work gets done. We have another reviewer, they learn and we make your life a bit easier as well, but we really need to make sure the students engage for us is the distance. If they with us, then I know come for a coffee, what's going wrong? But if there's somewhere else, then we just want to make sure they're motivated and they will engage with us. So that's all you're, you're asking for. I'm afraid our time is up. I'm really sorry. We can have a, we can walk and discuss. We need to go back down to the fries very well. Yeah. Can online participants please go back to the main session? Thank you. You know, uh, excellent. You do some more meds. Share the money. Uh, nice. Yeah. No. Uh huh. I will. Uh, what is it? Mhm.