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Hello and welcome to this introduction to Leadership Development Program. We are delighted to introduce our 11th webinar, which is on the topic of working in digital health and MedTech. My name is R s. You're saying I'm a academic clinical fellow at Imperial, um, and also clinical director at Humor, a global digital health company. And I am really excited today to be introducing an esteemed panel which covers a whole range of different sections of the med tech industry. Joining us tonight we have three speakers Doctor Dylan Obika, Doctor M. A Cox and Doctor Lisa Murphy. We've had a look at your questions that you submitted in advance, and we've got a really exciting agenda covering a whole range of different aspects of working in digital health what the sector is going to look like in the future, but also some tips and advice for people who might be moved wanting to move into this part of the industry. If you have any questions or anything from the webinar that you want to ask in our que and at the end, please do problem in the chat, our speaker's are gonna have a good go answering them as we go, but also we'll have some time at the very end of the session to, um to give them an answer. Now, before I go to my speakers, I think it's really important that we put all of this into context. Digital health has been rapidly expanding, particularly since the start of the colon pandemic and its aftermath. For me personally, what's really exciting is we're now starting to see many of these technologies and innovations that were done in some cases out of desperation are now being validated and being scaled on a previously unprecedented scale. And what we're now seeing is some big mindset shifts within the industry. We're seeing evidence generation coming really to the four. We're seeing regulation now, really starting to think about how it can cope with some of these innovations. We're seeing enormous amount of investment regularly seeing companies with valuations of $1 billion or more. Um, and actually, now we're starting to see people developing lifelong careers in digital health. And that's why I'm really excited to have three such those individuals here joining me today. So without further ado, we're gonna start our panel session and we're going to have some intros from each of our panel members, starting with Doctor M A. Cox. Thanks, Irish. That was far to kind. So, as I said, I'm Emma. I'm an emergency medicine training, and I'm also the chief product officer at Medics Academy. So for those of you who don't know medics, academy is a start up. We've got just over 50 employees, and what we do is we deliver technology enhanced learning solutions for all healthcare professionals. So that range is from the Healthcare Leadership Academy program to PG sets and things like that. And in short, what my role is as the chief product officer is to oversee the tech side of things. So that's our AP platform dashboards, internal and external, um, And to manage our product design and engineering team's, um, I've been doing that for about five years now. Thank you. Thanks, Emma. I'm gonna allow our next speaker to introduce themselves. Doctor Dylan, A bigger thanks. Rash. Um, yeah, and thank you for the invites. Pleasure to be on this panel, Especially at least. And Emma more interested in what they've got to say than what I've got to say. To be honest, But I'm a clinical specialist at Google Health, and I've got a background and acute medicine. Um, I think Google is a name that people recognize mainly from Google Search and, um, Gmail and things like that. But Google's a company that sort of got 100 and 80,000 employees, I think, and one of the big things that tries to push forward is health. And so Google Health is almost a company wide effort to kind of improve the health of billions of users. As we say, Um and that's kind of done through various ways. The one that's, um, sort of surfacing, you know, high quality health information through tools that people are familiar with, like YouTube and search, Um, and then some of it through the use of devices, Um, two things like fit bit, Uh, and then a lot of the work that I spend my time thinking and working on is how Google can sort of make software and tools to help clinicians at the point of care. Um and so a lot of work I do is on something called Care studio. But happy to talk about that a little bit later. Thanks Dylan. And last but not least, Doctor Lisa Murphy. Thanks. Rash. Definitely happy to be at least in this in this panel. Um, so, yes, My name is Lisa. I feel a little bit like a fraud calling myself a doctor. I did my my F one f to finish in 2018. When did the FML M Leadership Fellowship? I was in public health. England and I haven't really gone back since since then, very, very briefly during coated. So I've been working in in really taking digital policy entrepreneurship for the last five or six years. My current role is a senior policy manager in the NHL England Center for Improving Data Collaboration. So we mostly work to support Energy's organizations to establish and grow partnerships. The externals be that industry academic, etcetera around data driven research, invasion. So my work really centers around down infrastructure. A lot of work on how we value health data just recently finished rewriting the guidance for the N. H. S and lots of different things. And but I'm only in that job for the next 20 hours or so. I'm just about to start with the welcome trust as one of their technology leads in their data for health and science team, so I can only give you a little bit of speculation that that might be like. But if anyone's interested, we can always have a follow up in a few weeks when I finally settled in Awesome Thanks, Lisa. And I think what's really fascinating about that is the three of you cover very different stretches of the industry. Lisa, you've also alluded to the fact that it's relatively common to pivot between that bit of the industry. And so I wondered, actually, if we could kick off to maybe share of our audience. Um, what does a typical week look like for each of you and I'll start with Dylan? Um, I guess it kind of varies per week. So, um, I mentioned beforehand my background is an acute medicine. So I, um, well, intermittently local as an acute med ridge, um, in East London. And I tend to do that perhaps, maybe a couple of days a month at most, um, and then the rest of the time is spent in Google health. And so I tend to start work around 10 AM because I thought we have it up with the US side. Um, and in the morning, it's kind of coming in and then working closely with software engineers, product managers, people who sort of build the products within Google, helping them to kind of design it. Think about how it's going to demonstrate clinical impact, Um, thinking about any research that we need to do. But then also thinking about not just research in the way that we think about it clinically, but also research in terms of, actually, how can we design this in a way that is most valuable to the people that are going to be using it? Um, so that would be sort of a big chunk of work. And then I also sort of contribute to something a little bit of work with the health information quality team. So just thinking about how can we make sure that the health information that people see is is a good, good quality? Um, and sometimes that will be meeting. Sometimes. I just spent looking at documents having to think about how I can sort of frame things, articulate them in a way that other people will work well. But it's a very collaborative job. A lot of my day is spent talking to people, which I enjoy quite a lot. Um and really, I think the best way of framing it is to say, like I just problem solved. My whole day is basically problem solving. And what may vary is the flavor of problem that comes my way. Um, and I tend what I find it very, very interesting. Problem solving. Great. Thanks, Dylan. Um and I know Lisa, You said that we can't press you about your new job, but I wonder if you can tell us what your current ones like. What's that typical week for you? Um, it sounds a little bit boring. It's a lot of a lot of sitting in front of my computer, but I do have a really good time while I do that. Do a lot of I suppose that problem solving is actually probably to put it often. I feel like I'm more of a research with anything else. I think my background as a clinician also have a master's in health data science and having worked, you know, international organizations and things as well. I'm in quite a unique position to kind of pull together different different threads of what people need from us. So, you know, I know how to talk to different conditions or N h s C. O s commercial directors and understand what it's like for them and their pressures. And I can talk to the academics and we talk about, you know, everything from really high level data quality issues to like super intense nuances of differential privacy were very sick algorithm and so it's really, really varied. And again we do a lot of work for government ministers. It might be that Minister wants a brief on something that's come to the desk. We do a lot of influencing of bills and things going through. Parliament, particularly the health care bill, did a lot of work on on the status strategy as well and and feeding into other people's documents. Are stakeholders really, really reach all over the UK and so you know, it's the same, although a lot of it is sort of sitting here in my my little office, we only really going about once a month. But I do really enjoy that because we spend that time in your laptops off all the post. It's on the wall and you're really trying to work. And kind of, uh, I won't call a startup culture because I don't think that's that's fair. Startups definite. Probably work harder than we do. We're trying to use, like, a gel ceremonies and do a retrospective and huddles and learning from each other. And so, yeah, it's actually a lot more damage than that. I'm probably making it. So, uh, thanks, Lisa. And actually on that topic of startups. So, Emma, you mentioned that you do work in that setting. So what does that? What does that look like? Is it Is it as glamorous as they say? I think Busy. As busy as they say, I can't promise it was glamorous, as they say. Um, so, in terms of what? My weeks, like, um, I'm still in training as a doctor, so I do 50% of that and then 50% medics academy, um, so probably end up with two clinical shifts a week. Um, but the real issue is trying to make sure you don't end up with two kind of full time jobs. Um, about the hospital and particularly working in a in a is you leave and you are done. Um, that doesn't happen in any of these other roles. You know, you finished in the hospital and you've got a load of emails and questions on slack that have come through to you, Um, in terms of what I really do. Medics academy, I think a lot of it is problem solving. Um, the next thing I think is really implementation. So how can I deliver something with the resources I've got is a big part of what I do. And and I take things literally from an idea or a problem. And then through specifications being written and, you know, figuring out how to solve the problem through design teams doing those designs, Have they worked through the user journeys tha engineers reviewing the engineering, build deployment, getting feedback from users and starting the whole thing over again. So it's really, really varied, and I tend to have different teams on different products or projects, and so you'll be flipping from one to the other. Um um and the main thing is trying to make sure that each team is getting enough input and isn't being held up by the other one. Um, and then we've got enough of a pipeline kind of going through, Um, so that's it. And basically trying to do all the facts. You want to deliver the maximum value for your users, um, as quickly as possible with the resources you've got. So take that big problem and then break it down into lots of little ones. It certainly does from my perspective. Um, And if if I can stick with you So, um, be interested for our audience how long you've been working in this kind of digital space? And in that time, what do you think? Some of the biggest changes that you've seen have been? Yeah, on a healthcare wide picture or personally, And the company or what? What would you like? What? I mean, A lot of people are asking about what's changed within the industry, so I think I think we can We can come to the bit about some of the personal challenge is there's been some other questions on that as well. But I think it'll be interesting to see what you think has has changed the what the changes you've seen, you know, from the technology or the industry or the opportunities, that sort of thing. Um, I think the biggest thing has been everyone will say this probably is your patient records and moving over to digital patient records. Um, but also starting to put the patient at the center Everything. It sounds really bad because I think for decades and decades always said patients first. But it's only now that you can say I can get my healthcare records on my phone. You know, I couldn't do that before, and and we're starting to gather kind of much more data and starting for that data to be a bit more joined up. So you know, you've got your NHS apps and greater integration of care records, and that provides really interesting opportunities going forward. So I think that's where we're at the start. It's just seeing what actually happens from that and moving on from that. So So Lisa, you mentioned that a lot of the work that you do is with, you know, the NHS with kind of healthcare providers and things. What do you think are some of the innovation? Some of the changes that you think are going to come and those organizations can implement. Or do you think there are some big challenge is coming up that they need to be aware of, And so I think there's definitely been a cultural shift to be more positive and facilitated of innovation. I don't think it's perfect. That's, you know, unsurprising. The NHS is a huge organization, arguably a network of lots of organizations working together. I think what has been very positive is seeing a lot of the attention and funding etcetera coming in. And you know, my team started 2.5 years ago was four of us, and now there's like over 30. I really should know how many but a lot and that that's amazing to see that there's an energy to try and help some of the policy and guidance and infrastructure catch up with the desire for innovation. Definitely meeting with energy Organizations that were understandably reticent to be handing over data sharing data with particularly industry and private providers just a few years ago are not actually much more confident in ability to do this and do this securely and and get the true value out of it and also working together, there's so many consortiums supported you care, I h okay, etcetera. So that's all really, really positive. I think, though, that what we're not getting is enough feed through to the front line. And I don't mean the doctor noticed the infrastructure being used in the front line. And yes, you know, it was years ago, but I do remember all the broken computers I had to deal with, and I completely understand why that's still everyone's biggest. But they're even just how our HR are used and structured. They're not done appropriately. There's lots of you know everyone's had that B T assessment flag, but you're just trying to look through because it's an emergency. All these things that are supposed to to be done to collect really good data from the get go or not working the way that they should, or they're all working in different ways we can standardize them. I think someone told me there's like, 40 or 41 ways that we capture white blood cell markers across the NHS. So again we can have all this lovely ambition and a I strategies and money. But if we don't have good quality data at the heart of it and diverse data at that, Um, they're they're not going to I don't know the the What's the What's the What's the Golden Goose? Maybe that is it and that we're hoping that they'll be. That's really fascinating. Thank you. And Dylan in your introduction, you you mentioned that Google does a whole range of different things and across different industries, and it's trying to introduce some of this technology in in ways perhaps we might not have thought of. So from your perspective, what do you see as some of the most exciting things coming up? Or actually, some of the biggest challenges coming up? Yeah, start off with Exciting, I think. Um, so as I said, I spent a lot of time thinking about How can we, I guess, make tools kind of that would be useful for conditions to use. And I think Google is very much a company that sort of, um, it's part of his expertise, are taking diverse sets of information and then harmonizing it in a way that's useful. And I think in the hospital, probably 80% of my day is spent, you know, looking at information and trying to make it useful or like searching through information, different sources and putting it together. And I think, um, something that excites me. But it's also a challenge is I think, when I think people become more familiar with the concept of technology in healthcare, um, and digital health and they become more familiar with the concept of a I and health. But it's very, very hard to demonstrate a positive impact, um, for a number of reasons. But I also think that there's been a kind of focus on, I think, diagnosis and labels and how a I can support that which I think makes plenty of sense. But I think there's also an additional bucket where if we think about the way clinicians often come to like a diagnosis or, um, the next thing that they need to do that. If we were to imagine there's 20 cognitive steps, I think often we can focus on that last step without being able to explain how a I got there, whereas I think some of the kind of steps earlier along the chain saying like, look, why don't you have a think about looking at this set of notes Or why don't you have a look at this investigation? Just almost kind of guiding the way towards the final answer without delivering the final answer itself is A is a really interesting area and something I spend a lot of time on or something called clinical way of finding. Thanks dot And actually, I might, um, stick with you for the for the next question because it leads very nicely from what you just said. So you've described quite a few changes and, you know, iterations that have happened in the healthcare space. Um, and digital health is, if not about anything else. It's about change from your perspective, from what you've seen. How how hard is it to implement that change? And from the bits that you've been involved with, What are the skills you found? You've needed to help push that change over the line? Yeah, I think for me my my kind of journey into health tech has been quite a short one, but fast paced one. So I've been at Google now for a year and a half, and before then, I was a health tech. Um, start up for a year. Um and I think one of the biggest challenges is off the back of coated. There's lots of work that was done, which is very, very helpful. Um, but it was very, very hard to kind of demonstrate that change in a positive way. And I think that's really important because you can't be implementing these things without knowing what the impact that they've had. And I think there's a kind of fundamental, I guess, challenge in that If you're a startup company, you can't afford to fund research. And actually, we come from backgrounds where nothing goes in front of a patient, unless there's like a large body of evidence to say that it definitely works everywhere, Whereas digital health is a very different beast when it comes to that, because, first of all, by the time it's not like a drug. By the time you sort of had 10 years worth of evidence of something, it's changed about 15 times to check, Um, and so it sort of maneuvering that I think is an interesting challenge, and one that startups have really started to mature in. Um, I also think that, um so it's quite funny for me and a rash you know this quite well. But before I kind of got into digital health had absolutely no interest in research whatsoever. I can like, very vividly remember doing my B s c A petting year in thinking I would never do this as part of my research project. Um, but it's it's very different when you kind of worked on something and then implemented it. And actually, you really want to see what the change in the impact has been. Um, and you have to be very careful because I think a lot of harm in healthcare has been done by people thinking something is so obviously the right thing to do and they implement it, and it leads to, like, a crazy amount of harm. I mean, you can just think of that sort of opioid crisis in the US as an example, and often what happens is not what you'd expect. So remember, there was a, um, an app. We built that sort of previous startup, which, um, brilliant, brilliant idea. Amazing people working on it. Um, and the idea was to kind of triage patients on a cardiac waiting list. Um, so, based on symptoms and those that have sort of worse symptoms would sort of be flagged up needing to be reviewed. And the idea is like this will save loads of time. Um, patients who love it, conditions will love it, and it's gonna be fantastic. Turned out with an evaluation. Actually, um had the opposite of time. It took so much time they had to hire an additional staff member in order to do it. Um, but patients did love it. And actually, the clinical team liked it. Not because they found that it made the day easier, but because the benefits in clinical safety were fantastic. And so these things never quite always sort of, um, end up the way that you expect. And that's why I think a big challenge is sort of measuring impact in a mature, responsible way. That's really fascinating to and actually, um, that that process that you've described particularly putting the patient of the user at the center of it, um, reminds me a lot of what you said M A at the start of your introduction and the kind of work that you've got to do with your team. So maybe I come to you next in terms of that managing that change in digital health. Um, how challenging have you found? And what are the skills that you found have been really useful in making that success? Um, so I think it's worth saying I've probably got it easier than everybody else on the panel because I'm not creating patient facing or things affect kind of clinical care products. Um, and that inevitably, is easier. There's less regulation, you know, you don't have to provide quite the same burden of of evidence that makes it a little bit easier. Um, and I think the other thing that affects how easy something is is whether you do it within the NHS in this country or if you do it outside. Um, doing it inside the NHS is typically harder at the beginning because it takes more time to get going. You know, there's lots of bureaucracy involved, but then you can guarantee people will use it because they have to use it. Uh, whereas if you come at it from a different angle and build it outside of the N h s, um, typically much easier to build it, but much harder to get, you know, into organizations and used. And I think those are some of the challenges. So I've obviously done it outside of the NHS. Um, and I think actually saying, you know, creating a digital product. You know, most people can create a very simple app or something very small if you can code, or you can find someone who can code. But actually I would say that's the easiest part of the. The hardest part is getting people to use it. The ongoing work. We tend to think I've built it. People will come and it will just stay great. They will love it. It will be perfect that that never happens or it's never happened to me. Um, instead, you spend ages iterating it, you know, tech changes. You have to do lots of maintenance, and you also have to spend ages working through all of the details. So people are strange. That's probably nothing new to anyone here, and they will always do things that you don't expect them to do with your product. Um, and so you have to try and work through those scenarios and have built in the right kind of guidance and things like that so they use the technology. How you expect them to do it? Um, I think one of the best examples of this was one of the first projects I worked on was single sign on. Um, and most people will never have ever thought about signing in or signing up or anything like that. You know, it just it just happens. And the first version I got from the engineers was whenever there was unexpected behavior. So someone signs tried to sign in with an email that doesn't have an account. The error message was oops, something went wrong and so I could see that I would spend forever dealing with customer service enquiries. Going your tech doesn't work when, actually, it was they didn't have an account, but they thought they did. And so some of the challenges are actually trying to think through all of those scenarios and build product. That is that robust. Um, and in terms of skills, um, I know a lot of people ask you don't need to code. I can't really code. I can do tiny bit, but you don't need that. A lot of skills are actually what you have as a clinician. So empathy, I think, is the top one. So being able to put yourself in the shoes of the person using it if it doesn't make their life easier or is it easy to use? They're not going to use it. You need to be able to problem solve, which I think we've spoken a lot about. How do I take this big problem, make it into little problems and deliver a solution that's actually workable? Um, and prioritizing. I think that's one of the key things as well. I saw lots of nodding while you were saying that and those those, uh, that's certainly resonated with me as well, which I guess is reassuring. And, um, it's a really interesting insight into into how those multidisciplinary teams work in that setting. A lot of parallels I feel with with clinical practice. Um, and Lisa, I wanted to, um, end this question on you and perhaps to think, if you can give us your thoughts. Sorry on how you've seen change done well or change done Not so well kind of across the across the system, because you you may have had some insights into things that have worked well and not so well. And what are your reflections from that experience? Um, sorry. Following them is answer is difficult that you really just send it up there at the end. I think I mean things that have done well. It sounds really simple, but it is. Is people being bold? I think in her expect to what Dylan was saying like, Yes, we have lots of, you know, process in place for, you know, testing drugs and things. And don't get me wrong. There are harms that can come with deploying technology. No one's denying that, but it's obviously going to be very different than you know, an immediate drug reaction. You might see a zero clinical trials, so rethinking why we do that testing. But while also being mindful that, you know, if if we're developing an algorithm, it's going to potentially be be used or implemented on everyone in the hospital versus drugs that are prescribed to certain people. So that all those kind of caveats, of course. But I think people that have have been bowled have tried something, and except that it might not, it might not win. I think people that have really worked together would be the second one. So you know there's loads of models developed, but that in silicone to actually in the hospital pipeline is fractured, and it works really well in places where you have industry in particular working really well with academics and with with the NHS. And again people can be reticent about, you know, working with industry and the perception of that and things as long as the right governance is there and people are transparent and community about doing, you know you're not going to have the public writing out your door and you know, they really don't mind and that you're working with with Google or one of our other under other with colleagues. I think people that have have been bowled and work together and also being humble, and I don't want to go ahead of ourselves because, you know, we will talk about about leadership. But I think for our generation, for one of the better phrase, we're probably going to be more skilled or knowledgeable with some of the stuff that our seniors will be. And that's quite different. And it's certainly different in in my environment, you know, I know in hospitals. The head of the surgical, you know, team for cardiothoracic almost definitely be the best cardiothoracic surgeon. And you know, that makes sense in in some of the data and digital world. We have some fantastic leaders, of course, but they never worked on this stuff where they've only done it for for an even short period of time that I have or they've got less diverse experience because they've they've been brought in further, further other skills. So the kind of having the confidence, I suppose, is someone who could be in that that kind of middle tier two to speak up as I don't get any conclusions need to do as well at times. But to speak up and allow yourself to To take the leadership and manage and say, You know, actually, you know, I know quite a lot about this because, you know, I'm doing some side work with a startup or and let me explain to you some stuff about genomic study because I did some research that my B s c and people always really open to to hearing that. And I think that, um, outside of clinical medicine, those hierarchies become a lot more horizontal, and I think people that have been able to navigate and manipulate that and senior leaders have been really open to that and and really accepting that. Yes, of course, they've got more policy, leadership experience and then the rest of us. But they've got the least digital data experience and have have been, you know, humble enough to to come and and and work in that way. And that's where I've seen real success happen. And I've been very lucky to work with senior leaders that have a lot of that's happened to be clear as well. They're obviously fantastic. I'm not trying to trying to run down their knowledge anyway. I think that's a really fair commentary on how these hierarchies are changing, and experience means different things in different settings. And so, um, coming from that question, if I can stay with you, Lisa, your clinical experience you mentioned at the very beginning how much, if at all, do you think that's shaped how you've operated in your in your digital role? So I won't pretend that it's not not limited? I mean, obviously the placement in medical school and stuff, but that's that's definitely not the same. I think giving me some of that that humility has been really important, I think, actually just being able to talk to anyone about anything, you know, you you're working in London and you're going to meet literally every type of character in the world. And being able to have a conversation with him in a very human level has actually been been exceptionally, exceptionally helpful. I think times I've got respect from other questions. I'm not saying I deserved to learn that respect, but they just go, okay? You're you're going to get it. And actually, you know, you're not here to to sell something that won't work, and I Maybe because I don't work in that specialty, But you do get some of that that sort of instant. Um, yeah. I don't know what the word is respect or gratification just because of your background. And I like to think I do try and make sure I turn that as well as just been giving it. But I also think at times I need to Yeah, I'm not saying you want to hide that, that you're a clinician, but I think that can often be a perception that clinicians will come in particular policy organizations like NHS England, and they'll say, Oh, no, it works like this. And oh, actually this and I don't maybe recognized that they are not the most experienced person in the room despite this maybe being, you know, I don't know a child health workshop and they are a pediatrician. And I'm not saying that to point fingers at anyone in particular to be very clear. Um, but I think, yeah, one of the best compliments I got was from one of the developers. I was working with it, and it just digital who came up in a meeting that I, you know, I was a doctor, if you want to call it. And he was mortified. He was like, I had no idea we were together for eight months, and I was like, That's really such a compliment because at no point you felt that I've I've come in and over, spoke in on on your knowledge with with my background and yeah, I guess that's that's really me talking about how I've not used it kind of clicks, which is, rather than how I've used it. But in the same way that you know, I've sat and listened too much more experienced in your nurses than me. I think that that still needs the whole weight when you're in policy, digital other environments to No thanks, Lisa. But in your defense, you did. You did mention how the non technical skills have been really important, but also how that grounding and what's relevant in that industry has been really, really important. Um, so leaving on from that Dylan, in your introduction, you talked quite a bit about actually your ongoing clinical work. Um, So how's how's your clinical experience shaped the work that you do now? Um, quite quite a lot of saying. And in in various ways, I think, um, if I was to try and design a training ground for, like, high, functional, well communicating people that can, like, function in intense, uh, situations, I think it looks very similar to the NHS. Um, and so one thing I definitely found when I sort of went into digital health was like, let's be clear, literally no background in digital health beforehand. I'd like a vague interest, but I didn't know much. Other than like my clinical acumen. You sort of walk into the room and you're, like, kind of like I'm quite good at, like, looking after sick people, but, like, I don't really know anything else other than that. But what you learned very quickly is you're a good communicator. You're a good problem solver. Um, and you're good at sort of looking at things with a logical lens, as well as bringing the additional skill set of, like, I've actually seen healthcare before. And I know how things work and it's really hard to kind of, I guess frame that. But it just is a thing. And I think you see this. A lot of health tech companies, they're like, Look, we know we need doctors and nurses. We don't really know why. We just know we need to get them in. And when you're in, you start asking the right questions. It's like a massive done, including effect. People don't even know the right questions to ask because they haven't been exposed to healthcare enough. So I think I think for me, what I found is like one massive bucket, which is just clinical experience from medical school on words but then separately to that, there's like an additional skill set of like, I kind of changed jobs every four months for, like, many years, and I kind of have to, like, take needles and poking into people and speak to people about bad things. And like the skills that you build, there is very hard to kind of like, articulate in a structured way. But it means that all of those skills are extremely useful. Um, even outside of the like, Oh, I know what it looks like to treat heart failure patients. I mean, the fact that we all we all laughed at your your anecdote probably tells us that's quite a shared experience by by everyone on the panel. Um, And so if I can wrap up that question with Emma, uh, what's your take on this? Do you Do you think it's It's been a big experience and a big influence on your in your digital role? Um, so I actually think I don't have to be a clinician to, um, do the role I currently do. I think it is useful. Um, everyone I speak to the NHS think they have no transferable skills and that they can only ever work the NHS and keep going and keep going. And that is, I think, rubbish. Because, um, as Dylan and Lisa have said, the communication skills are really helpful. Um, you have to be really pragmatic whilst working the NHS. Actually, that's really quite helpful. Um, and you respect about putting the patient first. And I think understanding the landscape is really helpful. Um, I do think there's also some ways in which it's not helpful. So in medicine, um, we don't really have a culture of making mistakes, you know, mistakes or a bad thing. Um, and we're typically you're type A personalities, and it must be perfect. And if we do this in tech and I go and work in a dark room for five years to create the perfect thing, it won't be perfect, and the world will have changed so much that it will no longer even be relevant. Um and so I think that's part of the challenge. You also get it from coming from a clinical background. So if I can provide you with the further on that Emma So you talked about the kind of the different challenges like, if I can get you to maybe speak a bit more about the leadership challenges. So, um, the timeframes are going to be different. You're going to be dealing with different people. Um, and your end goal is is slightly different. But how do you see the difference in the leadership challenges from when you're working in A and A and then you're working as chief product officer? Um, this won't come as a surprise to anybody working the NHS, but the NHS role is a junior doctor. I am probably just a rotor line. Um, I could be a subdivision. And you know, if there's no one there on that day, then you know, try and find someone else. If not, you may Do you have a lot of responsibility in terms of the patient in front of you so you can have an immediate impact. Um, but you actually have quite limited ability to change the organization. You can try, but you rotate around, um, and so it's quite hard. And there there's a real contrast to my role of medics academy, where I have full autonomy of kind of what we build, how we do it work flows of whole teams, budget responsibility. Um, and you know, if we've got a new apartment, go over there and help them out for a month or two and do a bit of coaching and then come back. And so there's just a whole different level of kind of responsibility. Um, and that's, I think, probably quite nice. I guess in your tech you have an impact, but it's on a longer scale but potentially reach more people. But in hospital, it's quicker but smaller people. But I think a lot of the same things apply. You have your effectively mg t um, in tech and also in the hospital. Um, and I spend a lot of time. I'm not an engineer. Can you explain that? That's that's okay. And actually, that's what you do in the hospital when you know the dietician saying something that is way beyond my comprehension, and it's just trying to get the most out of all the different skill sets there. Thanks. I think I think that resonates with a lot of people, and I think that term mg t, I feel is soon going to be quite prevalent within digital health. I'm hearing it more and more. So watch this space. Um, Lisa does that Does that kind of experience and that and the differences in the leadership challenges, uh, match your role working kind of in the jobs that that you do. I think they do. And I think I don't know if it's if it's building up, because I may not agree. But I think there's also some of the on learning that has to come because I think, you know, you're never gonna be in the same position as you might be. He doesn't have you on the night shift, and there's only one of you and there should be three and etcetera, etcetera. You can shop for help and ask for a bit more. And I think for me learning to do that sooner rather than being like, you know, I should be able to cope with this, I must just continue charging onwards. And I think then the new things you learn about switching off at the end of the day because you're not handing over and kind of having to make that decision of what? What am I putting into this today and when can I kind of kind of draw that line. And when am I going to come by back to it and and again having that that lack of, of urgency, of thinking. I have to do everything quickly and perfectly, and I kind of need to burn yourself out. So definitely would. I would agree with with what I said, and I guess because I'm not moving between the two as much, it's maybe been more of a process of learning some of the batteries you get working in the chest. But do I think, actually make you really great employee but aren't necessarily always very healthy? Nothing to do with our lovely colleagues to be very clear, but very much to do with the systems design, that is, that is a common thing that I do here. So I think those views going to be shared by a lot of people, um, and so Dylan, if I can end this question with you, what? What are your reflections on on the different leadership challenges? Um, I think so. Within the NHS, I feel like leadership is a term that's used a lot, and there's kind of the traditional leadership which people think of which is within the hierarchical structure. Who is a decision maker. Um, but then there's what I think. Within the last few years, we've really adopted as other types of leadership where you don't need to be the most senior member of a team to demonstrate leadership. Um, and I think we've got a pretty good grasp of what that looks like. But despite that, I think the NHS is quite hierarchical. And I think what I found, um, in health Tech is you work with some fantastic people and the culture is very different. The culture is very sort of collegiate and almost bottoms up, and everybody's voice is heard, Which means it's a lot of the leadership, you sort of demonstrators having to kind of get what we call stakeholder management what I just say, like, get people on board the ship, Um, and kind of just spending time, you know, getting your idea across in a way that kind of resonates with people. Um, and that's how you sort of an act change. Um, and I think there is an aspect which is quite similar in that, like if you as a clinician in digital health. You kind of do have a kind of you get to say or go or no go for many things. Um, just because you're giving that role and that responsibility. Um, but leadership, I definitely think feels different and even going from start up to big tech. I mean, big tech is big, so there's lots of people in it. Um, and so sometimes that's getting people on board the ship and making movement really does take, like, a big show of kind of leadership and not only sort of coming up with the idea, but, like, really demonstrating, proving to people why you think it's a good idea, Um, and how to do that? And a lot of that is just good communication. Um, making sure that you're articulate and getting a kind of vision across, um, so, yeah, thanks, Dylan. And if I can stay with you for the next question, So you mentioned earlier on that before joining your previous job, that was your your first real experience of digital health, which, um I guess, has to be true of everyone. At some point, you need to you need to get that experience somewhere. But what would you say, from from that reflection of what the skills and the experiences that people do need to get involved in to to succeed in this space? Yeah, I think the role that clinician can take in health tech is very varied. I think people can have a very technical expertise and, like, you know, get buried with the code. I've literally never coded anything in my life. Well, joke about how, like, I'd be terrible if I did, I might learn out of interest, but that's really what it would be interesting. I don't need it at all in my day to day job. But then people can kind of, you know, be very buried in the research side of things or focus more on the commercial partnership aspect. Um, or they can work more closely with strategy or just kind of do a mixture of everything. And I've kind of always done a mixture of everything. Um, I quite like that. I quite like to have, like, a varied a varied week, and I quite like learning. I quite liked learning lots of different things, and I think that's probably the most key skill being aware of the fact that there is lots to learn. Um, being a clinician is, like, useful, very useful. But there are certain things within digital health that, like you just kind of need to learn. And for me, what I found is I I basically kind of turned up and was like, um, I went to an interview, uh, my previous company and I've learned quite a lot of stuff in the build up to the interview. But I had no experience in Digital whatsoever. And I was just like in between interview around. Nobody is going to study harder than me before the next interview. Um, and actually, the more I interviewed, the more I was like, I'm actually really enjoying the stuff that I'm learning. Um And so, um, and in my previous role, I was constantly learning and looking for avenue, Whether it's structured information and more structured courses, or just like learning on the job, you have to have, like, a hunger and appetite to to learn new things. Um, but the good news is like the stuff you learn is pretty cool. It's pretty interesting. Um, and even now, like I'm constantly learning new new things which I really like. Um, so I think for me, I'd say that's probably the key skill. I think something that, um, within the NHS we're not used to having, I guess, is what called a career ambiguity. Um, I think from the age of 18 onwards, they've kind of known exactly what our future looks like for the next 2030 years. And I think something that people often struggle with and it's not going to digital health is what does my future look like? And to those people, I say, Just make sure you're learning stuff that's valuable and you're demonstrating stuff that's valuable and, like the rest tends to work itself out. Um, and I think like people can focus on the title. But the title may change the industry's change. The codes In the last 23 years, it may change going forward, Um, but there are, like, tangible skills which are like, extremely useful to know that health tech companies need, um but we'll start crumbling now. I mean, you say 18, but I would argue maybe even earlier given, you know, you got to choose your gs CS in your poor sort of 12 13 year olds who set the next 20 years of their life up and ready. Um, but, um, if I can come to you next, So you're now in a chief product officer role. Um, which is very different from, um, day to day kind of clinical practice. So what's your what's your reflections on kind of the skills and experiences that you've needed to do? Well, in that job, I think it's worth saying I didn't have any. I've accidentally found myself in this kind of career path, and I think that's probably what's happened with a lot of other people in this space. Um, I started working at the company originally in an education roll, and then I got more and more involved in the text side of things. Um, and there's a huge amount of learning on the job and then also going to kind of external resources. And if I actually look back what I did at the beginning, you know, just think God, that's so embarrassing. Uh, and the engineers just noted a long time. Yeah, um but so but so I don't think you have to have huge amount of experience, and I might be a bit controversial here and that I actually have hired lots of people who don't have any digital health experience and have trained them because I think the biggest thing is whether you how you think you need to kind of real attention to detail and also how you problem solve and really work through a problem of If this happens, then what's going to happen? And then what? And then what? And then what? Just keep going, Um, and working that through. I've seen lots of people who have all of the certificates and everything like that, and then actually, you give them a problem to do, and it's very, very high level. And I just go if I give that to the engineers and, you know, garbage in garbage out. Really? Um and so that's I think, what's most important? Um, so I didn't I didn't need anything. I don't think you have to necessarily be a clinician or a senior clinician. Um, and you can learn a lot on the job and kind of read around. Um, I think constantly asking those around you like, Why are we doing this? Or can you explain this to me and kind of absorbing everything you can from them is really helpful. Thanks, Emma. And so, Lisa, if I can end this question on you, what's the what's the skills and experience that you found useful or that you've observed been really useful in getting involved in this space? Um, I think for me again I feel like I'm like, but that that humility and also just being bold, you know, seeing some things happening and asking I was an F one. I saw a couple of clinical entrepreneurs talk at an event. Couldn't even tell you what it was and was like, Well, that sounds really cool. Message him and said, I'm going to an academic What Can I do something? And it wasn't much at that point, but at various points in two years, I was like and uh taking images on the night shift to help their algorithm get developed, you know, as a wh show. And they asked, you know, I was working and stuff and they were, like, really interested in. And I was like, I'm actually really into this, like, health tech thing because at the time, it just wasn't as as prevalent as it is now, and you just kind of it was a bit pushy to get myself on the project. I was like, I'll do it after a result. I'm not saying everyone should take taken exploitative work to be very clear. But I was just like I am so into this and I want to know more And I think I think that passion really, really drove me through. I think as everyone said about this transferable skills, I think they are there. But it's also being aware of them and making clear they're they're important. So I was definitely a wild card for my current job. They literally told me afterwards they were like we had, like, five interviews spots. We have four top people and thought, Yeah, why not take this doctor who seems to think that she knows some stuff because again, I, you know, approach accelerators and said, Can I help in any way you know? And when I was freelancing or in my spare time and again giving some of that that clinical expertise or information governance, all these these things that you don't quite realize you've picked up and working or medical school otherwise. And but I think yeah, it was It was the passion and the fact that same same as Dylan said They, you know, they give us an interview prep question, and I think it's where the Royal Free deepmind, you know, data sharing. And I literally was reading legal documents in prep for this interview because I was just so adamant that regardless of what I was on paper about policy or digital experience, that I could say, No one is here are gonna go and work harder for you. And at the end of that's what that's what people want. And I think you know, Amazon talking about bringing in people from nondigital backgrounds and training them. And I think, yes, super important. But if someone has hired into a couple of rolls and not like, really senior roles, but about 78 and then it just that means anything to anyone. I get a lot of clinicians applying, and they send, you know, their C b, their consultant anesthetist. They've done some some great stuff, but they're not. They're not telling me in their cover letter like why exactly this job other than digital health sounds really cool. And that's of course, I'm being facetious and putting, you know, not going to insist, agree or wanting to make anyone feel like I'm talking about them specifically. But I think just just being aware of what you've got and also what you've not got and being really bowled in coming to, whether it's for jobs, volunteer position or otherwise, and saying like I think I can bring you all of these things take a chance on me is really the best way in my view and with a little bit of luck, of course, and to kind of get your foot in the door. Thanks, Lisa. So I'm going to pivot at this point into, uh, some of the Q and A because we've had some questions come through, and I think this is a really good opportunity to go through them. So, uh, the audience members please keep your questions coming through on the chat, and we'll use what remaining time we have to go through them. But there's one question that's come up first. I'm gonna I'm going to throw, too you, Lisa, because it's very similar to what you just said. Um, and it's about What advice would you give to those who are wanting to to start out in the space? You gave a few tidbits, but what was your What was your number one tip? Be honestly, I think, as Dylan said, you can have for your career. You can have ambiguity. You can see what your liking and move around. I'm not saying you can't do that. I do think it's an important consideration to be made, whether you want to be a generalist or a specialist, you know? Do you want to be a product person? Do you want to be a data scientist? Do you? You want to be a clinical lead, which is also incredibly valuable roll be. And you know, we have plenty of working in our projects and our teams, and there's plenty of working in industry. Or do you want to be like me, who is like actually, I've just got the worst idea in the world I'm going to hit if I have to do just one thing forever. So I'm gonna deliberately try and try and do lots of things and and then I appreciate it. In that general rule, I have to be the the convener in the facilitator and the researcher a lot of the time, and I'm not necessarily going to be like the lead author, and everything are doing the ground breaking research. But I'm really okay with that. And so then deciding who is you want to be, or even just the skills and the activities that you want to do and then, yeah, it's really hard to find people that are doing the thing that you might want to do on the path, because there aren't these set your path that we are so used to from yeah, 15 16 and know what you're going to do. And it's really easy as someone who's very privileged. That's the way to say, you know, lean into that uncertainty. But I really do think just trying things, reaching out to people and and if it doesn't work out accepting that, that's fine. And you've actually got a huge shortage of a fall back of clinical medicine like that as a skill that's never going to go out of fashion. So I think, yeah, if you can, where you can Yeah, just just try and be bold. That's really helpful. So Thank you for sharing that, Dylan. I will come to you next. You talked a bit about some of your own experiences of going through that selection process. So with the retrospectoscope, what would your number one tip be to anyone looking to get involved in this space? Uh, I think a lot of what Lisa just said really resonate with I think a big part of it, as I said before, is kind of like learning stuff that's useful in demonstrating stuff that's useful and for the learning stuff that's useful, like a great bit of news is a lot of the information is just out there for free. I think the hard thing sometimes is knowing what to look at. And I think for me a lot of the work that I do is working closely with the product team. So software engineers, product managers, except you're thinking about how this product to be put together. Um, and what Emma said really resonated with me that a lot of it is just kind of problem solving and the way you problem solve. But in order to do that, you have to understand the process is that goes into like building a product. Um, and the language that software engineer speak and all that information is out there. And, you know, sometimes I see people that have done all these additional degrees and masters and things, but, like, you can get that content for free, like coursera you to me except all those things, like Fantastic. Um, so that's like the learning stuff that's useful. Just find the information, um, and then demonstrating things that are useful. I think that's probably the challenge that people have the most. Um, I think when I think about the industry slightly, um, and this is just from my own personal experiences. And then I think things have moved a little bit from like, Oh, hey, have you ever seen a patient? Sure. Come on in to, like, actually, have you done 100,000 things in health tech before? Um, and I think one that's a mistake. But also to, um, I think you can actually get like things on your CV in relation to digital quite easily. I think like in any hospital or any trust, there will be projects that are going live and there will be teams I've been on the other end of these calls that are just like desperately looking for engagement for clinical teams just to kind of, like, evaluate things and see how the project is going and seeing how to implement it, like every day they'll be meetings every week where people are spending time thinking about it. I would love, like a medical student or junior doctor whoever to come in to, like, kind of throw in helping hand and like being able to say that you've done things like that or demonstrated in interest like that is like fantastic because that is actually part of the job. So, yeah, that's what I kind of say, I think thanks dot And so, um, uh, you mentioned about you've actually been on the other side of that recruitment process. So with that perspective, what would your number one tip be people looking to stand out? Basically, I think any kind of experience with TEC is really, really helpful. But if you take a step back from that, anything around change management quality improvement, can you see a problem, come up with a solution and actually get it through to implementation and that it's sustained is actually quite helpful. Um, that anything around tech and I agree with Dylan, I think it is easier than we think it is. So most hospitals now have chief clinical information officers. Um, that you can reach out to you can, you know, at one hospital eyeshadow the CEO for a week when I was an F one. You know exactly what would be interesting. You know, I'm sure if you reach out to them, they might, you know they'll be. They'll go for it. There's also more and more, um, kind of training pathways. So I know that mid and South Essex had innovation fellowships. Um, there's the clinical entrepreneurs program where you can eat loads of people working in tech. I think you just need to meet like minded people or people who are working in something and, you know, offer to get involved in a project and deliver it. Um, and then that will open so many doors for you. I think you know, doing a bit of reading around the side or learning a bit about, you know, agile frameworks or things like that is much more important than improving your clinical knowledge. You know, there's you're not unlikely to stand out in this space by being the best clinician in the whole world because there's a load of people competing for that. Whereas actually, you can stand out more by knowing a bit about Tech because that's where the shortage is. Thank you really useful advice. And so I'm looking at the questions here, and I think there's one more that I I definitely want to pose to all of you before going for a couple of kind of more focused questions. But there's a question here about how to navigate a career in digital health, and I suppose maybe, actually, let's reframe that question as you know, how do you navigate it? But actually, more broadly, what do careers in digital health? What? What do they look like? I'll start with? Um Uh um I think I'm the anomaly here by having a real half and half split. Um, so I think the first thing is, do you keep up the clinical or not? And then I just see it as a as a load of forks in the road. Um, the next one is, Do you want to do it within healthcare like within the NHS, Or do you want to do it outside? If you want to do it within healthcare, then you know, there's lots of rolls coming up in trust. And s T p s. Um, I get fancy titles around Trans, you know, digital transformation, officer or lead and things like that. Um And then if you want to do it outside of health care, then it's really what kind of lifestyle and what do you want the day job to be? Some people from this will go on and set up their own companies and go for it. Others will want startups. Or, you know, you can go for a big tech. So I think there are lots of options and people will float around between different versions of that. And even I'm aware that my role is quite engineering heavy. But I could go and work at a different start up, and it would be much less engineering heavy. Um, and so there's really variety, and you can kind of tailor the role to what the company needs and also what you enjoy doing. Thanks. Uh, Lisa, what about? What's your perspective on this to be honest. I don't know that in the future there's going to be a non digital health career if you're in, You know that sort of health space in general, right? Like I can't remember his quote. It is so I don't want to steal. It might have been injectables, but it was basically like a eye is not going to replace doctors, but doctors that work with a I'm going to replace doctors that don't. And I think that's really stuck with me for for years since I I heard him speak and I think it was him that said it. And I think it's the same principle. Is that like, a fair enough? I have absolutely all the respect in the world. People that just want to be a front line condition. I hate it, which is why I don't I don't do it. I think they absolutely can blend the squares and they're really valuable to blend together. But it just was never for me. And and I think you know whether you're using and feeding into quit projects are increasingly going to become more digital or you're eventually carrying that research that's increasingly involving. Um, you know the use of data, whether or not that's for you know, digital innovation, the end or not, we're all going to be involved in this to a greater or lesser extent. I think, um, from that that navigation point it's it's accepting that there isn't necessarily an angle. I think someone said this before, but as long as you're learning and interesting things, then that's then that's great. I think there's going to be so many shifts and organizations and teams being built. And I think if if this is something that you want to do, you have to accept that it's going to be quite uncertain. But having said that about my first point, I think I would be surprised if in in 10 years that we didn't have much more of that blend right at the very, very front line of care delivery and in particular thinking about some of the organization. Think someone asked a question about doing an NPH and and I don't want to go into much on my own experience. But you know, I worked in public England for a couple of years. I love the digital strategy team. In fact, that's why I was like, Well, why would I do public training when I do this for a while? Have to come back to it later. I was like, I just want to stay working on this. And, you know, I think all those organizations, all the stuff that I C. S s as our GP colleagues and social care colleagues are starting to work together more again. They're starting to innovate whether they even realize it or not. And I think if we start to have more joint up here, we're going to have more joint up data, and we're really going to find that very few people are going to working in some aspect of that digital health pipeline. Thanks, Lisa and Dylan, if I can get you to wrap up that question Uh, yeah, I think, um, I think something that I think is a bit challenging is the term digital health is becoming broader and broad and broader, and I think at least kind of touched. And eventually we'll kind of get to a point where there's not much healthcare that delivered without there being digital health involved in a way. So it's kind of hard to boil down What do careers and digital look like? Because I think there's, like, lots of different flavors to it. Um, and when I think about other doctors and nurses that I've worked with and so I've seen that their their career in digital, they have all kind of taken completely different avenues. Some of them have carried on clinical practice. Some of them have left it behind and have no interest in it whatsoever. They've all had very different roles. I know some people that have carried on and start up. Um, many people have gone to Farmer, many people that have gone into consulting and digital health. Um, and some people have gone to big tech, Um, and some people that have sort of carried on medical training while sort of keeping on digital health as almost like side projects. I think I think it's very hard to kind of say what a specific career in your health looks like because I think there is a level of career ambiguity there, Um, but what does vary is like some people like to take on more partnership rolls. Some people kind of work very closely with the product some people take a more kind of research heavy career. And then some people kind of do a little bit of a broad mix of everything. Um, and that's when you kind of start to see people with kind of, I guess, like clinical director rolls or medical director chief medical officer. I mean, the terminology changes all the time. But, like in terms of what they're actually doing, it's just a broad mix of things. I think that's fair done. I think my job titles probably changed, like four times in the last six months, so that's yeah, that's quite a fair point. I'm just going through the questions and I think, all but one question we've managed to answer, thank you guys for looking through those questions as you are responding to that last one. So I'm gonna end with one last question for the audience, and then I'm going to pose one, uh, to wrap up. But we've got the question from the audience. Is any regrets or things that you wish you had done before making the switch? I'll let whoever wants to take that start. I will very happily that first, because it will be brief to say No, I Yeah, I think, um, incredibly privileged to end up where I ended up. I think I didn't always do all the right things are definitely things I did that maybe weren't as useful for my time, but I don't think there was an opportunity that I didn't see. And even when I got things wrong, you know, spending time w o creating an app for a country in in their local language. And it's really important. And then being told, actually, you know, everyone speaks French and the health system, so really, she was done in French. You know, that was a hard lesson to learn. Fine. You know, maybe regretted that night of work, but at the end of that, I learn more from that one thing, And then a lot of time I spent sitting in my masters. So yeah, I I honestly can't say that. I've I think similarly I can't think of any one thing I'm massively regret. I think I've been very lucky to kind of working fantastic people. I love the work that I do. Um, and I think that the mixture of things is like, you know, I can't really ask for for more the moment. But I think one thing I definitely struggled with for a while, um, was I couldn't decide for a very long time whether or not, um, kind of double down in digital health or to carry on training, um, and then kind of do digital health as a sort of more part time gig, and I don't think I would have regretted it either way. But just to say, I really struggled with that decision and I kind of have to break it down to, like, what does a good job look like? Um, and what does like my deal kind of future look like and what you actually really enjoy doing, But I'm very happy with my decision. Probably would have been equally happy the other way. But I definitely struggle with that for like, a good Yeah, I was I was just going to say the same. I'm very happy. I've got both aspects of kind of my career, but I do constantly have that. Is it the right balance? Um, and sometimes you can feel like you're doing two jobs badly because you're not properly, you know, doing something full time. Um and there's been lots and lots of mistakes I've made in terms of digital career. But actually, you learn a huge amount from it. So absolutely nothing I regret. And I like having that mix. I could not do a full time aid and the rotor, um, and hat off to anybody who does that. And if I could indulge myself at this point, I just also add similarly, um, no regrets. They're definitely have been mistakes on the way, but very happy with, you know, the choice is the decision. The jump. Um, so I would really echo what our Panelists say. And so if I lead us now to the last question a slight surprise question that I'm going to put to our Panelists. Um, I would really love to hear from each of you. Um, one thing that was very different to what you expected. Um, you know, a bit of a surprise that you, you know, didn't realize before you made the move. And the second thing I'd really love to hear is now that you've made the switch, what's the single thing that you're the most proud of that you've done in this new space? I can start off with what surprised me the most. I think, um, in both roles I've had in digital health, I've been very surprised by quite frankly, like the brilliance of some people that I work with, um, and also kind of their motivations for working in health because I think from a clinical background, health tech is often seen. There's like your work life balance. Etcetera is a bit bit nicer. Um, you and you have a bit more sort of control of your time. Um, and things are kind of fast paced and exciting. But for people from a technical background, health is hard. Um, and health is difficult and health is slow, very slow. And it's kind of a clash of cultures. The tech culture of, um, you know, things are fast throw out there. If it breaks just like we learn from it and go again, go again and just, like, learn from it with health compared to health, which is like nothing touches the patient until, like, someone's thought about it for 35 years, Um and so when when I kind of got into digital health, what really surprised me is like the motivations of people within health and their knowledge of health, Um is like, often very, very interesting and fantastic. Um, and that's been like across the board, for kind of everyone has a story about why they're working in health, and often they're almost as passionate, if not more passionate, than the clinician's in health tech for for what they're doing, what they're doing. Should I go next? I entirely agree with you. Um, Dylan's really, really brilliant people and also different ethos of, like this perfectionism. But I think the thing that surprised me most, what most was learning about design, I always just thought design was like, Oh, it looks nice. They are. Off you go, Um, but there is so much more to it. You know, there are reasons. Buttons are certain colors, and there's loads of science about whether you have one or two buttons and pop ups because people interact differently. And if you're gonna have radio buttons or, you know, an input there is it dropped down. They spend ages working through these things, and it makes it so much better. And the one time that somebody gets it wrong, it's probably the only time that, like the average person using it, will notice it the rest of the time. It's seamless, but that's because loads of work has gone into it. Um, so that really surprised me. And I've really enjoyed kind of learning about that in terms of what I'm most proud of. I mean, when I joined the company, we had the equivalent of one full time engineer, and we've now grown to 10 15 engineers, product teams designed to teams. And they are working effectively. So being able to grow that, implement processes, train people, set up teams that function well, probably a big thing. And in terms of tech, you know, we just got an APP out or dashboards deployed to organizations. So those types of things Thanks, Uh, Lisa, I mean, I think I think very similar to what's been said is, you know, the motivation of people. I think particularly being in in an address England, everyone I'm working with, you want to protect and pull the NHS in the same way all my clinical colleagues ever did. It's been really interesting watching some come particularly consultancy, but there may be working with the N. H s and realizing, you know, then it is where they want to be. And they couldn't be as effective in consultancy. So they wanted to to kind of actually come and do that direct work and kind of get a bit upset Sometimes when I see, not mess. So in my work people can drag it all they want. But particularly clinicians. I follow into it and maybe saying like, Oh, what was interesting was thinking about this policy. This is documented this and I think there's actually a lot of work and a lot of intelligence, and a lot of, you know, everything that goes into these And these people are so motivated to do the best thing for the H s. Obviously not everyone's going to get it right all the time. We're all human, but I think, yeah, really, really depressed radiation and for how much everyone wants to hold, hold the NHS and and it's values of patient first and and free at the point of access, all the rest of that right at the core of what they do and all that strive to to really work with with patients in the public has been been not necessarily as surprised, but I think I didn't give my non clinical colleagues and appreciation when I was working, working clinically, and I think what I'm most part of it is really difficult. One to answer or not, but I've done lots of lots of great things. But, you know, most things have been done in in consortia, and I think you know, my last piece of work. My my legacy that I'm leaving, uh, energy is England with sending sending out Tomorrow is is a technical capabilities specification for for secure that environment and just research environment, which I only heard of first about 18 months ago. And I have become, like, the kind of big thing. And yeah, I think managing to navigate a lot of technical stuff, a lot of of people who want to invest in these buildings and grow these and a lot of users and a lot of privacy concerns. And it's been it's been a really long year working on that, and I think seeing it to fruition and actually looking back, all the people I've worked with and who have contributed to it and I say I you know, I wrote it. I really just edited other people's, you know, expertise and insights. And I think being able to break down a lot of silos and bring people together to work on that from, you know, mhm CEOs to industry colleagues to yeah, members of patients in the public who really grasp a lot of this a lot more than I think we give them credit for is definitely something I'm very proud of. And I'm not necessary hoping that that document last forever. I hope everyone involved in that process took as much of it as I did, and it kind of persist is a way of doing things. But we'll see. It seems like the key take away all of us are sharing is that it's that teamwork and it's that shared goal and it really is true that these innovations, these achievements happen as part of a part of the team and we've all got important role to play in that. But it's never going to happen without all those contributions coming together and thank you very much to each of the Panelists taking the time this evening to share your reflections, your experiences and to answer some audience questions and thank you all who have joined us here tonight. Um, certificates will be provided. Um, they're going to be available on demand on the med or platform. Um, please keep an eye out through social media and through your email channels for our next webinar in this series. And if I can leave one final kind of housekeeping and trainee steering group who have posted this webinar tonight are looking for a south of England representative. If you're interested, please check out the Twitter feed where you'll see more details of how to get involved. But before I wrap up this evening a very big thank you to our three speakers, uh, in no particular order Doctor Lisa Murphy to Doctor and the Doctor and Doctor Dylan a beaker for sharing their time this evening. Their experiences, Um, and thank you very much for your contributions and all of you in the audience. I hope you've enjoyed this webinar and have a lovely rest of the evening