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Hi. Hi, everyone and welcome to yes, another series of uh urologist symposia. So they'll be taking a walk through the National ST three Urology application and we have two seasoned facilitators that will be handling this for us. Mr Yok and Miss I doo um one beauty about this session is the fact that we'll be guessing firsthand experience and also the latest um information regarding this as the two speakers went through this application last year. Um I'll be introducing um Mr um Ayoun. He graduated from the University of Ibadan in 2016, finishing top 5% of the class and winning several prizes. He owed the masters in biomedical research from the Imperial College, London where he directed with distinction. He worked as a surgical senior um house officer in General surgery and urology at a friendly NHS Foundation Trust and also in neurosurgery at the Imperial College um Healthcare NHS Trust between 2020 2021. Um He was a college surgical trainee at the University of Birmingham between 2022 and 2024. He, he is a member of College of Surgeons of England and he is currently a specialty trainee with the E LT S Education, West Midlands and is a urology. See fleet. Join me. Welcoming Mr Yo Peko. Sorry, you're still muted. Yeah, sorry about that. Uh As I was, I was, I was saying that was a bit of a brief introduction. Thank you for that Larry. And I'm glad to also give this talk to people. My name is Ayo as is rightfully said, and I'll just come to like share my personal experience about um the necessary application. And I have been specifically asked to speak about self assessment, which is quite important and, and it's a bit of a what is it called now? Stressful situation for many people when they are applying. So I'll try my best to just, you know, try not to ramble too much. I just plan to go through this talking about the introduction. Um Larry, I said a bit of my experience already. So I'll just go through the application timeline, the guidance, we break down some of these points and see what can be achieved. And if my deck works, we'll talk about the examples. And now you can, you know, um what is it called? Um show you evidence. So introduction, basically urology T three is quite competitive. Um It runs from ST three to ST seven. There are various regions in the country with each of them have been very specific number of trainees per year. Um Before the last application um section or around, I think commission ratio was about 3.07 and they were about 82 slots that year. But I think last year there was a bit of a drop. There was an approximately number of 300 applicants for about 58 to 60 jobs last year. And as we know the application is via the oral um site, it's quite easy and self exposure to go through one at a time. And for eligibility, if you are not in a core surgical training or you have not finished a course surgical training, you need a certificate of readiness of higher um of entry into higher speciality training form, which we might talk about, you know, uh um and as Laria said, and I've put this, I'm not sure if um and if you can see it very well just to like give people, I don't know, is it hope or motivate people to say that you don't need to score 100% everywhere. And basically, you need to do your best. Um So I did a master's before starting clinical um work in the NHS and finish from Imperial did um unfortunately, for me, did surgical jobs and um peak of COVID. So we didn't get that much surgical experience. It was maybe just mixing it A&E but that was very helpful. And ir at around 16 months doing sh a job I tried to apply into cos surgery and the first time didn't get in or I got into GP training. So I started GP training, but we applied again for course surgery train, which I eventually got into 22. And at the beginning of my C two, which was last year, I applied for the first time for um N TN for urology. And basically, I just put this there to help people. So my self assessment score was 55/76. I think I claimed 58 and I got a couple of points and that's my interview score there which puts on about 82 point some 82.6%. And this is what we want to see at the end of the whole thing, we want to see greens all true. And there's my rank over the number of people that eventually made it, they eventually appointed. Yes. So the application um timeline basically for this year is gonna open on the 14th of November 2024. So as you would understand, by the end of this talk, we've got lots of time to maximize those points that we have. And it goes through the long listing. Long listing is a bit of a tricky situation. So they use both the eligibility criteria so they check everything and make sure the papers are up to speed and up to date and all fine. And at this point because they are usually quite a large number of people applying, they kind of cut some other people. Yeah, so they look at your self assessment score and if they think it is so low or way beyond the minimum standard, they they even bother letting you proceed. Just stop the um they stop the application there even before short lifting. So, shortlisting involves verifying the self assessment score and making sure um you cross over that bridge to get into the interviews. Interviews are usually within around March about two days and it goes to the interviews then and they're usually online, I'm not sure if they will come back to in person interviews this year. And hopefully by the time the offers are being released on the 15th of April, um we've got something for people. So straight into the guidelines, you need to first make sure before you are doing anything you are eligible to apply into urology. Urology has some peculiarities amongst the surgical specialties. In the one you are not punished for the number of years outside of medical school or after foundation training called Factor. In some other specialities. You have this factor where I don't know what number of years now you going to cut your points based on this number of years. But in Europe, it doesn't have that. It doesn't matter. The things to know is for the, is that one you must be eligible? You must have a GMC administration of course and you must have evidence of course surgical training. So it's either you are within a course training program, either you've completed a course surgical training program or you have an equivalent form, which is the certificate of readiness to enter into higher specialty training at the time of application. The Crest form as you call it is easily accessible online. You can get it via the oral resource bank and all you need is someone that supervised you for three months and has registration, whether it's GMC, whether he is whatever. And the surgeon, they have a list of surgical specialties and they're able to sign the form for you. The form in itself is very easy to sign. I think the problem is usually finding somebody to actually sign it. And the only thing that rules you out of applying theory is that one by the time of application, you must not be eligible to enter into specialty treatment. So you must not be a consultant already or you um must not be on a specialist register in any eu country, all of the points um You need to get for self assessment must have been achieved after at any point after me and before the application deadline which is December 5 2024. It's important to see the self assessment guidance as part of your interview marks. So inter are four plus this self assessment is five because eventually they will carry equal marks or the self assessment for itself is very important because that is your gateway to get into the interview to kind of make your point. Um, the cut off mark for self assessment has been, unfortunately creeping up slowly over the years. Um, I think last year for some reason we don't know what the specific number is, but going from stories from people, I think it was set around 50 I think the year before it was just below 50. So I've put it cut off as 48 to 50. I'm not sure what exactly it is. And like I said, it carries equal marks with the interview after they've done all of the um um waiting and all this is basically a repeat of what I've said part of the application form. Um Part of the talk was we need to talk about it and talk about the form itself or when you open and you fill up the open, you realize that it's actually very easy to fill it up. You just basically answering each 0.1 yes or no and just clicking it. It's very, very easy. The evidence for each point must be collected into one PDF document. So for example, if you have like multiple um files for one point, you should put everything together on one file. So you got claiming, for example, for audits double cycle audit, it doesn't matter. The number of audits you are claiming for that, put everything together on one file. It's very easy to do this. You can do this via the Adobe, you can do it via um small PDF. There are so many websites I thought to just put it together for free leave, no room for doubt. So if in your mind, you're having some doubts and leave this application or you, if this point is going to be accepted or not try your best before that, to make sure all, all that is sorted. If it involves getting someone to explain it in a letter, you getting additional evidence, just try your best so that you don't have to do point already. And the important line, the last one is that you cannot use a single event to claim multiple points. So for example, so this unfortunately wasn't in the handbook last year and many people fell, including me, fell and pray today. So if you have done an audit, you finished the audit, you have double cycled audit, you've competed everything and you've submitted that as evidence for audits. So according to them, you can use that same point and try to present the audit somewhere and claim the point for presentation. It has to be a different audit entirely or a different article or different work entirely. You can't use that particular audit to um claim two points. So that's what I mean by that last line. And the red sign is just the one people basically warn you against falsifying data and the importance of being truthful and open and plain and all of the GMC. Good doctor advice. So this is a point breakdown comes to a total of 76. There are a bit of big shooters in here which everyone should try their best to maximize. And there are some that you just can't maximize. So I've put postgraduate degree which is a level and I've put a star on, on the week afterwards and you would understand why I did that. Later. Publication has a maximum point of nine audits um presentation 10.8 teaching seven points, prices, five, surgical logbook, 20 leadership four. So as a baseline, the big ones that almost everyone can get is audits and Q ID surgical logbook and presentations. The rest is where the and leadership points. So the rest is where you have the differentiating um factors between people. OK? I'm just checking to make sure my slide is moving. So my slide doesn't seem to have moved. So it's working out. So postgraduate degree is a long term plan. Um If at this time, you don't have a degree of working on it, there's really nothing like we can't really dwell on this too much. So basically, I put a after that, as you would know, it's called 11 points. But ideally, you can get a maximum of six points. And this is why I said so, so you have maximum points for either a phd or a master's research with heavy research input. And if that has been submitted and accepted and you have the degree, you have six points. But if you have all of these same degrees, um peer review psa and all of that, but it has not been awarded, but it has been submitted, you get two points and if you have a degree or a master's, that is not orally examined. So it's just a random master's in some other course that you don't need peer review thesis for you after three point. So it would be very difficult to find somebody that has all of these and is gonna score 11 points out of this. But as again, never say never. Um So maximum 0.6 hours for phd 2.4 and 3.4 master. So if by this time you don't have these, you don't have to chase it that much and don't be scared as 11 points, it's basically six points maximum what you get. So publications is where um you have lots of the differentiating factor, I think despite submitting three query first auto articles, I think II don't need two points for this because my points were do for several reasons. Anyway, the first thing to be to note is that case reports are not clearly stated in the past. It used to be very up there and people were sure if case reports are the same um ring as a normal research paper. So now they've put that on the second one and you receive five. So it's either non first auto peer reviewed papers or first auto case reports of it submitted. So that's clearly taking now. So if you have, for example, three first or case report, it's not gonna count as a first auto period. The paper is actually going to count as the um fifth point and you have a maximum of two points. So the key, the goal here is to have at least two or worst case scenario, one first auto paper and most people are usually worried about this and they wonder how are they ever able to get the first auto presentation and get it published in time? Fortunately, for us, we've got multiple um journals that pub net indexed and uh have very short um turnaround time. For example, Curios, I'm trying my best not to plug in people's um business here. Um Curios is very good for very quick turn around time and I'm sure there are other urology um based journals. You can check, you can Google Urology green book and it comes up with a list of IC green book journals that might not be pop index, but they actually accept um for the non peer review points. The easy thing to do is just find a blog post. Um You can, for example, contact ki Medics and all these guys and see if they have something urology based for you to write about or you can write about it or you can create your own personal blog post, which is what I did created my personal blog post use medium.com wrote a couple of articles, submitted one of those and that was what I used to claim the point. Um for the things to publish, you can publish so many things so you can publish audits, you can publish. Um If you have a very nice audit and Q IP, you can actually just go ahead and publish that. You can publish systematic or narrative reviews and original research, original research as we understand would be the most difficult to do it, especially if you are not within a research system or you don't have much of research background, but audits, we are all doing audits anyway. So you can find curios who readily accept your audits as long as it's um scientifically sound and you can write systematic reviews if you have friends, you know, that can help you to do that. Basically, it's no longer as impossible to do as before, especially as we have journals that will quickly accept our articles and audits is where most people should pre to try to score all of their full points because it's quite really exponent. So the first point is that how many closed loop audits have you done since medical school and closed loop involve you doing two cycles of audits. So looking for a gap in practice, checking what your current practice is like initiating the intervention and re auditing. So it's, it's usually be two cycles of audits for you to do that. And it's just better to do it in a urology based topic because you have additional points for that. So you may have walked somewhere else and done audit in multiple cases. They may count for seven, but they won't count for eight. So it all depends on how much time you have. So if, for example, you walk in medicine and you've done audits about geriatrics and you've done full psycho audits, you get your full points in seven or you get zero points in eight because you are not urology based. So no matter what you've done, try to get something urology based, you don't want to be missing out easy points like this. And apart from that, you also have points for single psychologist and the same thing as I've said for the um um double psychologist is that you need to have urology based on it. So it doesn't matter what you've done in the past, you've done multiple audits in the past, but they are not urology based. These are easy points for you not to miss. So just try our best to do that. Now, it's time for me to convince and say it's quite easy to do audits. But the important thing is that you need to work for yourself. So when many of us trainees or non trainees approach consultants for audits, they normally are usually give you big audits to work on because they've got their own work to do. And this might take a whole long time. Like you have people doing audits over years, but basically an audit is very simple and what they want you to do, identify a gap in practice. How do you do that? You can first look at, study your books, look at what your hospital is doing and look at what you would like to improve urology has something called Get it right first time, which is um a kind of nice article that shows different standards on what you can do. You can use a nice guidance, you can use the E AU, you can use the boss um information. Basically, this helps you just know what should be happening. And also you can get ideas from conferences. Some you just go to conference and see what someone has done with your trust. You can basically replicate it in your own trust. Um Another trick about completing um double cycle audit is that you can do it retrospectively. So this is what I mean. So you've been working as an sho or a registrar in your trust? Are you noticed? This is my classic one. I like this one a lot. Are you noticed that um for your stone patients, they're not having their calcium phosphate and uric acid check. You know, this already, you know, this is what this situation is. So for example, you realize that to today, even without doing an audit, you can just come up with a very nice information leaflet, talk about the importance of this and talk about what you need to do for this and base it around. So that's your intervention and go back in time in about 23 months, time and audit what has been done. So that in one month time, you can say you've done the audits, this is the intervention and you are re auditing in one month. So you've done a cycle of audit in one month rather than waiting six months to do all of these together. That's what, that's what many people will do. And the evidence is very easy. So there's a supervisor form which you can get from the Yorkshire site, which is, which is the first link I shared earlier today. And you can get an audit document and an audit letter. I'll come up to that later. Presentation is basically the same thing. You can present whatever you've done. You can present audits, you can present Q I PS can present papers, can present research articles and it's either virtual or in person these days, it is much more easier. You can do almost all of these things virtually. And now there comes to talk about it being more moderated and moderated, but this is how they've explained it for us. So the first point is how many times have been given an un moderated postop presentation at the national. So national is any of these national bodies that is the UK in your country. It doesn't have to be the UK wherever you work. As long as it's a national body and you didn't have to be, you didn't have to talk or you didn't have to present and you didn't need somebody to be in front of you for that poster to be count as presented. So you had a poster that has been displayed on a screen that has been displayed on a um bought. So you do have a panel in front of you itself is an un moderated POSTOP presentation. And basically, it's an easy point. It's just one point and get a maximum point here. But some people may have multiple presentations even at the same season. So you go for a conference and you have like three presentations. So you've maxed out the first point, you can use that same the other papers or the other things is presented for the other one, which is a regional meeting. Regional meetings are much more difficult to get, especially, you know, like in a regional training program or in your regional um body. So most people just use the excess presentation they have from a national meeting since medical school to claim the points. And also it's just 11. So these are easy points to miss 1.2 points should not really be missed. The next one is the big one which is a, a moderated session. So it's either you're actually talking to a group of people or you are talking to a panel or you put your poster up, you are talking to a panel. So either way, as long as you are talking to a panel, it doesn't matter if it's just you up on the podium or you in front of your screen, as long as there's a panel there and you've done this twice or more, you get maximum of five points if you've done more than this and that's at the national level, you can claim the same thing. Someone said they can't hear me anymore. Can you still hear me? You can just put it down on the page, please. I'll stop talking if you can hear, I can hear you actually. Ok. So that's good that, so I'll continue. Thank you very much. Um And basically the evidence is either the certificate, the letter, the presentation or email. So whatever you have, um you don't get marked down by submitting sensible things. So if somebody has sent you an email to say we've accepted you for oral presentation, put that down, it, come with a certificate, put that down if you have the presentation, put it down. So it's all in one file and it's very easy for you to just show that. So, teaching is a bit of a tricky one because many people, it is very difficult to actually get a master's in teaching and a master's in research that you've got. So these are really big things to do, but most people can get a diploma in education. There are so many colleges, so many bodies doesn't have to be the big medical diploma in, in education. There are some diplomas that can be done online and virtually, you don't have to be there in person to actually do it. So that's why you can get a point. Many could just get one point for this, which is strange, just certificate gained since foundation. So after your foundation, not before foundation, the teaching is where and many people think it has to be something really big or something nice. I'll try to explain what they mean by this. So to attract 3 to 4 points, which is the maximum point, you should be like the lead person in this and you should have organized something that's an equivalent of four CPD points, which is four hours. It's either you do a day teaching, which is not a teaching. So you come up with a teaching plan, discuss with people and let them know this is what you want to do and try to do that over a period of five or six hours. So a day you can invite more than one person, invite 23 consultants, 23 colleagues, this can be virtual. This can be in person like in your own department or this can be like national, you can put it in a national plan, you can put it on something like cigar or whatever body you have as long as one, you are able to get somebody that will explain your role that you organize this, stay the length of the course of the CPD point. So most people have done this. But then eventually put this under irregular teaching activities. If you have scheduled a teaching more than four times or more than four hours, you can put it as a course. And I don't think you should be losing points here. If you can contribute as a relevant cost as a faculty member means you can also be the principal organization of the relevant course. So they put relevant cost here because they don't want you to start doing courses on it or machine learning or things like that. They want it to be something urology based. So it's usually easy to just get this all, all sorted out and trust me, there's lots of time. There are lots of four hours between now and um November or December. So you can maximize your four points here. Most people eventually are able to maximize five points here, which is four point from teaching and one point from train just certificate, which is not bad for something that has a maximum of seven points. So these are the easy things we can actually just get and um try to do that and just say it's so difficult. The points is just it possible to be done and prizes. I've not seen anything yet because it's quite self-explanatory. Um, if you've got prize after medical school, which is a bit mean because many people wouldn't get prizes after medical school. But I think it's one of the nice ones. They used to delineate people. So if you have any price grant after medical school, excluding best presentation, you get two points. If you get two or more of those, you get two points. And if you have any best presentation from either a national or regional meeting maximum is 3.8. As I grew up at baseline, I had zero point here. So if possible and surgical or book is the biggest point ever is 20 everyone is expected or everyone that is gonna apply for ST three is it seems to be seems a bit of a weird thing or a bit ask that if I'm applying for a training program, why should I be at level four? Which is you're able to do it independently to score the five points. Um But actually these are all possible because when you look at it, it's actually breakdown of surgical procedures. So the first one is excision of epidermal cyst hydrocet exploration. This can be either inactive emergency and you don't have to do it by yourself. So it can be either ST S which is a supervised trainer scrub there with you where you are the first operator or it could be ST U which is your supervisor is on scrubbed. It's just watching you or you just performing it by yourself without anybody else. There, most people are the level of co training. We get ST S and we get it and we get level level four which is basically two W ba S. So a couple of questions about W ba S, do they have to be on different days? No. Can it be signed by the same person? Yes, they are not ideal or it can be signed by the same person? Should they be consultant? Yes, because these are the things that are just easier to defend. You don't want to have done a particular work and now has been cut down because they think the person is not a consultant. So if you have a consultant to sign, just sign it and it can be either whatever scooter procedure you can do and of course you can be, you have to be truthful about it, use I SCP which is the easier thing to do. So ISA P is like the online um work based assessment thing. I know in the past, some people use paper W ba so they are able to print out like the docs or print out the W BA they don't have access to IP and they get these people to sign it manually and you can still upload that even if you never test. Um ICP, you don't want to pay for it. If you're not in training, you can get those paper based ones and sign it and submit to them because you have evidence for this. It's either a DS which is a directly observed procedure. Remember the last one or a procedure, procedure based assessment, either of them is gonna work. You do need two of those same thing for cystoscopy. So is any of those can just be a flex? You can just do two flexes and you, you've got some five points easiest point ever to get for this and highest level of circumcision. Sorry if you are in a big trust that doesn't do circumcision. This doesn't do all of this. Yeah, you might not get this point, your D GH where this is a common day case. These are just easy point for you to get and stent in session. So many people complain that they can't get this done as it, as it emergencies because it could be out of hours or something. But if there's a stone list in your center, almost all stones, we have a stent in second. Once again, you don't have to do the old procedure. All you have to do is just get the stent in and of course, you get level four for it. If you're able to do it, you get five points. So this is the easiest 20 points. I don't want anyone that's gonna apply not to get 20 points for this. This is the easiest 20 points you can get on all of these and to show evidence you use the W ba and you put logbook entry. So don't just say, oh yeah, I've done it. It's not gonna work again. So you have to say W ba and you have logbook evidence that you have done this in the UK. We keep our logbook using E logbook. You may come from other countries and you may have other ways of keeping your logbook as long as you have a validated logbook within the last five years, which is a quite urology is pretty generous, which is quite a very long time for you to do these things. So all of this can be achieved before you get it. And it's usually easy points to pick up with 20 points, leadership and management. So formal leadership roles and leadership roles also once again, since leaving in medical school, so it could be less president. These are the big ones. BMA rep, but rota manager is the easiest one to do so in your trust, you don't have to be the big rota manager. The NHS pays somebody for that. But if you have multiple doctors within the same um grade, we can just try to arrange where we go um on different days, you go to theater, you go to clinic. Um It doesn't have to be only two people can talk him and do it. So it's all, it's all about getting the points. It's all about really playing the game and getting the number. You don't have to wait until somebody offers it to you. If there is no one doing it to you, trust, walk up to somebody and see if you want to do it or if there's somebody doing it, tell them that you want to join them or you have to join them. For this reason, I need it from a point I need for need for leadership. The other things you can join are surgical or non surgical organizations. So if you have anything medicine related charities that help medical student and doctors see a for example, whatever rules you have in those things come as formal leadership and these four point for you to get. So from now, yeah, it might be difficult to get um some of these, it might be, it is not impossible to still get this point. If you don't have it by now, you might not get a rota man because you need six months, but you can get into any position at any time to try to get you four point for this. So it's not too late to get probably only too late to do a research master's at this point. But most of these other points are still possible to get. Um one of my last paper presentation I submitted it one week before deadline and I got it published before deadline. So yeah, it's not impossible. You just have to keep trying to the end. Yeah. So that's the end of what and why I think the breakdown of the evidence will be and I'm just trying not to just run everything together. So one of the most important point is people putting in their documents together. So there's no point in doing all of this hard work and now getting it um rejected just because during you follow these steps. So one thing is the the verification part, like I said, is an interviewer. You want to give yourself the best chance ever. Um If you have a document, I think there are specific things they need to see. Highlight that on a page. What I try to do is uh for each document, I try to have a cover page that explained everything on the cover page. And if there are things I highlight, I just tell them to check on page seven, this is where it is. So it's easier. It's like you are explaining to them, but you are not there, which is why I put that in the first one and you have about one week to do all of this after they check everything. Um and also also ensure that you, your evidence must not contain any patient identified with data, excuse me. So no patient's name, no patient details. None of those that GMC referral straight away and also, it was updated in P DFJ peg or P MG and the file C should be less than 20 MB. These are all very clear things and it is very clear in the um handbook just to ensure that it's very clear with no ambiguity. If you are sure of that thing, it's most likely not gonna pass through. So I've come up with a few evidence examples and hopefully we can run through it before like time finishes. Um First evidence example is going to be the uh publication summary. I wish so much. I consumed this. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I try to be clearer than this. So anyway, um so this is a copy of the sample page. So I created this a first page which is a summary and like I said, so we get three articles, one was a case report, I think that go deed and put down. But you can see, I put myself explain the first, put the link and not API D. And I also told them when it was published and I said, see P number above. So I made it very clear even though it was there, I told them that this is what it is. The second one was a bit tricky because we actually two first authors and it was acknowledged in the paper that there are two first authors here. So what I did was that I noted that I put it, there can say acknowledgment. And I attached the screenshot of the journal of my first authorship and I told them what page it was. So you, it's like you're basically talking to them. We are making it very clear on them. And the last one, like I said that um it was accepted just on the last day, which means there was no P ID for it, but it's a pub met index journal. So I also explained to them that it's a pub index journal, see page number 25. So kind of made it very, very clear so that whoever is reading it already has an idea of what they are going to do because you're not there to defend yourself. So it's basically what you are doing. And in addition to that, so I attached the papers itself. So it's just gonna be me scrolling through lots of papers. So this is just one, this is just the evidence for publication and I've just attached everything sample attached, attached all the papers in there. Basically, that's what that's what I've done. So first one is just papers just attached everything because it's easier for you to just attach everything and I put a sample. So this is the one that I explained when you t was accepted and this is the paper and if you notice everything was done on the curious because yeah, I had a very short time to do all of this the next thing is non peer reviewed publication. So I published it on medium. So I wrote what it was on a different one, put the website and I've said article on the next page even show them what the obvious is. It's quite obvious that if you go to the next page, you'll see it. But this is an example of how it came. And it was just a very simple talk on the man of Ureteric Stones in Nigeria, check my legs and one hour to compare. So basically, you have to point and I put evidence that it was written, it was written by me. Next one is for the audit. So I'll just send a bit of a time there. So two audits that they said both urology based. So I've said attached evidence of the presentation, set the title and attached evidence for the G IP and I put the title and put the pages on which it's on. So, yeah, you're gonna see the next page now, which is the audit form. So this is an example of the audit form and it's just one form. You just need somebody to sign it c the ones that pertains to you, which is a close cycle, closed loop or two cycle of it and get someone to sign all of this. It's really that simple. It's actually easier to get them certificate as long as wherever you are going to meet knows you. And uh was involved in all of this. And I put the presentation. So for that audit, I put one, I put this, I put the presentation, I didn't even put the audit certificate from the hospital because I already have this. I already had this, which is what they wanted. And the same thing for the second one, this is a closed loop cycle circle. What is, what is the right one and sign all of it. And you do the same thing for the single, single cycle of it. And this is for my pre this is um I mean, I skipped the page. I'm not sure. Anyway, so this is for my presentation. So this is a sample of what I did for presentation. I had one oral presentation. So they wrote that and I think I had to go back to them to say, please kindly include orally in there and they had done that. So orally they signed it up. So that was one I had the um program list that showed. So I put it there and said, put an arrow just made it very, very clear that this is what it is and I put the present. So I was gonna say this was a poster I presented, but there was an oral presentation because I have to talk about for five minutes in front of the panel. So it can be, it can be whatever you want to present and teaching experience. So from my teaching experience, like I said, I organized two courses, which was when the first one was at Imperial and it was easier to do because it was during COVID, we had colleagues from all trust. So we had like a trust and teams meeting on I think, excuse me, between April and July and we had a couple of monthly talks and that was also that's complete teaching evidence. And for C GF too, because last year I was gaf teaching lead and I still had a basic urology course. And all of this was just evidence really. And I got the consultant that we had on our team to sign it, we just really explaining what it was. And so this is a logbook evidence. This is the one where you talk about and this is what most people are confused about. So for my logbook evidence, I actually over au the um evidence. So the first thing I did was my W BA which was two docs and I've said page two and three. And if you use I SCP, you'll see the summary pages where it kind of lists the um procedures you've done and I highlighted the particular ones I was doing that and I had my logbook page showing the procedure and it was signed on my current application has to supervise again. So this is one. So this is an example of what the WB is like. So basically I've done one was it a stent I inserted or yeah, I did a, I did a cystoscopy basically on the same day with the same consultant and assigned both of them. It is basically what it was and that was all signs. So that's the example of a W ba. So that's ad O So that's why I play it if you don't have, like I said, I SCP you can always um use the paper forms and just upload it. And I showed basically, I mean, there was no question in everybody, all of people's names. So I just highlighted the two procedures in yellow. So they know what exactly it is. So there's no, um what is it called? Questions about it if you find many who many who didn't even put this much information, but I had a bad experience before. So I wasn't just giving it to child. So I just put all of this in there and basically I put it again in yellow so they can see what I'm talking about and sign it again by the consultant. It's an overkill to be honest. But many people just use the W ba S and use the um logbook and they're OK to that. And at the end I attached my full logbook. I didn't see the point of attaching a full logbook here, but that's just the first page of my full logbook. That's it. That's all about self assessment. There's still a lot to talk about, about you finding the opportunities and things like that. But I think this talk was just one share my personal experience, which I think I've done tell you that you need to collaborate with other people. You need to seek out your opportunities. No one is ever gonna call you and say, oh yeah, come and do this or I'm gonna help you. You have to actually do that. You have to just put in the walker, it's hard worker and just choose the level of hard you really want, want to choose and hopefully it all works out mimetic planning and time is needed and it's always worth it in the end. And hopefully next April um you're able to call someone and say you, you accepted the offer and you've done it. So I put my email here. You can send me emails if you have questions and I'll try my best to answer as much as possible. Slides will be available in short. They all like talk is gonna be available after like a week. So you can always come back to watch this and see if you need to um check out and I'm sure there will be time for questions at some point. Thank you. Wow, that was really, really, really expository. Thank you so much. Um Mr Peko for a very thorough, detailed and very enlightening session. I'm sure everyone enjoyed it. Um Just like I did and I like the fact that you personalize majority of the things sharing from your own experience, which is very, very important to us. Um We'll be taking questions and answers after the second presentation. Um But if you have any questions at, at the time, so we don't forget you can drop them in the chat box, we'll come back to them. And if you want to ask our questions um without dropping on the chat box, you can just look them somewhere after the second presentation, we'll be taking all the questions. Thank you so much. Once again, Mr Ade Peko. So moving on, we'll be going straight to the second um um speaker. Um So hopefully now that we've um gotten the offer for interview. So what do we expect at the interview? So for this session, um we will be having Miss I do and I'll be doing a brief introduction of her. So she sa BSE in Human Biology at the University of Science and Technology, Kumasi and a Bachelor of Medicine, bachelor of Surgery at the same university. She represented a university in basketball during the university games and won in sports. She was a clinical fellow at the Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust between 2018 and 2022. And then she worked as a senior clinical fellow at the Northern Care Alliance NHS Foundation Trust. She's a member of a College of Surgeons of Edinburgh. She is currently a urology trainee at the NHS Education for Scotland. She has a side interest in trichology and dance. Gine Welcoming Miss. I do. Hi. Good afternoon. That's a serious, um, presentation. Ok. So, um, so good afternoon everybody. Um, I'll be talking about a, in the urology ST three. Now, this topic is a bit shaky because someone would think I was the best in the selection. But I'll just tell you what I did to gain my number. So can everyone see my slide just I can see? OK, so we'll go through. These are the outlines we go through. We do a little bit of introduction about the interviews, talk about the component of the interviews, how we prepare for the interviews. Then I'll talk about common scenarios which would be the scenarios I got during my interviews and then we'll summarize. So just as a timeline, um we've talked about the preapplication, the application which my colleague a has done. Then I'll take previews and interviews. So you're probably in the first stage, which is attending the courses, asking questions about portfolio. That's where we are. We've talked about how to submit evidences and complete the forms. Um And I will be talking about preparing for the interviews. Um booking it, I think I talked about it. Um It will just be online once it comes up and then we'll del delve into the interviews itself. So uh the national selection process is just to get you into middle level so that your ST three up to ST seven when you didn't complete your training and it's the entrance way to becoming a consultant, uh urologist. It used to be in person. But I think for the last three years after COVID, it's now online and it usually has two assessors who, who would in individually um score your points at the interview. So there's only gonna be one person you would see asking you the questions, but there's somebody else in the background without the screens on. Um that would also score you and then sometimes there's a lay person just to ensure that it's a fair process. Um And the interview is they expect you to be talking as a registrar level. Mm So what are the components? Uh I've put it as AKI most of us would know the Os and it's made up of four main stations. So you have a two minutes reading part where the question comes up, you have two minutes to read it, pick your points from it and then afterwards you then go into the station 13 minutes for those of us who have done club, it's almost the same thing. But imagine this as just online. So in pla you have sat outside the station, read the questions at the side of the door and then when the bell goes, you go into the room and then you get ask your questions. So you have the outpatient scenarios, skills, scenarios, communications, and then emergency a total of about 60 to 70 minutes in all and you're done. So uh the components, I'll just go deep deeper. So, outpatient is usually about a clinical setting. Your understanding of these clinics, the steps to approach and usually patient centered. So you have cases like uh referred to testicular lump, visible hematuria, lower urine tract symptoms or a raised psa um skills was reintroduced recently because I think two years ago, it what the interviews had then for the first online was just an outpatient award scenario then uh emergency and then a complaint communications. But last year we had like a skill stations where in person now you would have actually assembled a cystoscopy, performed a cystoscopy kind of thing. But here you had to talk through it. Um Communication, same thing. It tests how you handle difficult scenarios. So you'd have either a very angry uh relative or somebody whose diagnosis was mixed delays and you have to talk to them and then emergencies is your classic emergency scenarios. Um And it has to do with how you handle emergency urology cases. Evaluate your teamwork, how you get other people involved and your approach as well. So let's talk about preparation for the interview back to our timeline again. So you're now in the preapplication, we're talking about it. So you're taking notes. Oh, I do apologize, sorry. Um And then we'll then move on to what you do before the interviews and then the interviews itself. So before the interviews, there are lots of uh resources out there, you can go into question banks. So Medi Body meset where they kind of go through questions that other people have acts in the past. Um and then just read up if you don't have access to that, you can always just go through your normal, more or less everyday urology cases. So what you see in clinics or what you see on the ward and then read about it, you can go to some ST three urology prep courses. But the main things that you need to do is to practice, I cannot overemphasize practicing, like talking and talking and talking, get everything you want to say to a spinal level because 13 minutes under stress, um when someone is watching you, you might say things that you don't want to. So you need to be able to efficiently use a 13 minutes and gain all your points. You could also do more interviews with consultants and your seniors and your trust. And I would advise that because then when you're talking to your consultant, they can pick up things that they expected you to say that maybe you haven't said and, and then you can take um feedback from there. The other thing about practice that I want to say is try not to practice with your friends. So don't practice to somebody that knows your lingo or someone who knows when you say ah, they, they kind of, they can feel it in, try and practice with others. So, so that, that way they can give you feedback to know if they actually understand what you say and not somebody who's used to how you talk so that you don't think that, oh, that's what I meant. I thought you understood that when it, to be honest, that's not what you said. So, always try to practice with different people as well. Um logistics for the day. So decide where you're going to have your interviews. If you're going to have it at home, make sure that your internet is working. Well, your set up uh laptop that you need wherever it's gonna be. Just make sure you've had, you have a plan for where you're gonna have that interview. Don't wait till the interview. Uh child care. So for those who have family as well on the day, you don't want your kids running into the screen when you're having your interviews. So also plan for that redirect meals for that day so that someone is not banging on your door when you have the interview, plan your study leave. And then if you're on call on the day of the interview, then plan ahead of time to do swabs. Um on the day of the interview itself, try to relax. OK, better said than done. I know and then have some good lighting so that there's no shadow and then they think it was somebody but in the room with you or not position your camera at eye level. So you are not looking down or you're not looking up. So you're looking directly at the interviewer. Um have a good outfit, so look nice and I would advise that you actually have the full outfit. So you don't just have the top and then your bottom is something else. Anything can happen like you can stand up reflex or something and nah, you don't want that. So actually dress the way you would have dressed if it was an in person, um, presentation. I thought they have your phone close by. And I said that because that was my experience when I did my interview. So I thought, oh no, my phone shouldn't be closed by because in the email they sent, they didn't make any mention about that. And I was like, ok, if I'm approaching this as an interview, if I was going for an interview, I won't have my phone. So I put it away. But then there were lots of internet things I couldn't log on at the 930 that I had picked out. And it took me about 40 minutes before I went back to switch on my phone and found out that they were trying to reach me. And um, that thankfully I had to move from the 9:30 a.m. which was the slot I planned to 330. So anything can happen. So II put, they have your phone close by on like silent so that if anything happens to your internet on the day, they can't connect, they will try and reach the number that is registered to make sure you don't want to, you know, have your interview canceled on the last day and you know, your plans for child care was in the morning and now you have to do the afternoon session. It just destabilizes you. So learn from my experience, don't, don't leave your phone too far away. Um And then of course, don't disturb on the door just to make sure everything's calm afterwards. Just rest. See, don't ruminate about what he said, what you didn't say leave everything in God's hand because there's nothing you can do after that. OK. So that's for your preparation. This is how you plan for it. The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing. So let's just delve into some few scenarios and then we'll wrap everything up. So this is an example of um an outpatient scenario and that was my example. I tried to notice it that I don't know if I got all the questions but outside. So on the computer, what came up first was like a summary. A 75 year old man has been referred to you for painless visible hematuria. How would you approach this patient? Um I guess you can either write by the side or in the chart, what, what kind of things you're already thinking of with someone who comes in, in visible hematuria. So you get a sheet of paper, plain or you can have one with a pen in the room by the side so that you can just note stuff down, but you're not allowed to look at it and then, you know, show that you're looking at about while you're reading, you can either just make notes of what you would want to say before you go in and then after that comes up, you see the interviewer and he starts asking questions. So what I noticed from there, you can see you have to talk about the appropriate clinic. So visible hematuria, you think hematuria clinic, you're talking about history, examination investigations, those are the things you have to go through to ask the patient, right? I put their chaperone. If you don't say you would make sure there's a chaperone there, you lose marks and you don't want to lose marks. So don't assume that people will know that. Of course, if you are examining somebody, you're gonna have a chaperone, you have to say it. They were talking about management. So blood, blood in the urine, you're thinking bladder cancer, what are the management? Tr BT do you need further ct all of that? You need to think prevention because you're not just thinking as somebody who's sho level fy one who's just clock in the patient and then hands off the management. You are trying to treat the patient as a whole. So, prevention, if the person is a smoker, then you have to talk about smoking cessation so that you stop the instigating factor and things like that. Talk about follow up. So what next after you've now diagnosed the cancer, what would you do? MDT bring them back to clinic, things like that. So that's where your, your handling cases as a middle grade and not just as an sho or foundation yet, you're thinking about what to do next, the next four or five steps. And then of course, you always have to discuss with your seniors because although you're middle grade, you're still an ST three, you have to talk to the consultant of your plan. So this is what I said that. So when you talk about all of that, that you're talking, then the interviewer comes up with a picture of the papillary tumor. So they show you um cancer in the bladder on the right lateral wall just close to the right but not, you know, involving the right and then they tell you to describe it. So this is all still outpatient scenario and all in 13 minutes. Um and they are looking for like keywords. So, oh, papillary, what it looks like? It's on the lateral wall, the position you need to describe that and what are the important things that you need to know or list for a successful MDT. Mm. So those are like the questions I can't remember exactly exactly. But this is what I noted down and I put them in the notes that you need to do hematuria clinic with available cystoscopy in your history. You're looking out for red flags, so painless hematuria, weight loss signs of met, you have to look out for that clotting status because you're gonna be doing ATR BT. So you need to know whether they need to hold off the Apixaban or Warfarin, whatever they may be on any previous history of cancer and stage because somebody who comes in for the first time with uh hematuria is different from somebody who had bladder cancer 15 years ago and didn't have visible hematuria until now. It's a whole different classification than your um investigations and then how to then break news with your cancer nurse specialist. So that's another key word. They expect you to say specialist nurse, counsel, nurse specialist. There are some specific people for specific clinics that you cannot do or go out of without saying um then you talk about consent. Of course, you have to talk about your bowel information leaflet like it's vis a vis for every consent form you're going to be taking, you will use the B info sheet to take the consent, go through it and then list the patient for surgery and pre op and for bladder cancer you want to get, there's a timeline 62 days as is known in some hospitals. So you want to try and get the date for the operation on the day of the clinic if you can and let the patient know and then send them down to pre op that same day. So that way we are ready to go ASAP. Then based on the picture that they showed what they usually like to bring up is your obturator kick. So your cancer is on the left lateral wall or right lateral wall. What you're thinking about is an alterative kick which would lead to perforation. So then the next question will come up in, how would you want to prevent that inter so things like make sure the bladder is not too full, use your bipolar short swipes all of that they want to know. Oh, and then tell the anesthetist to paralyze deeper if possible. Um And then refer to smoking situation like I said in your history, if you do notice that they are active smokers and then MDT for this discussion. So that's your um outpatient. So then that then goes on to your skills, right? It might not be the same. But during our interview, it looked like it was one history that just kind of laced through. So once you're done with the previous station, I would always say forget that. So that's a different thing. You close the book, don't think when you're not reading the station, oh, I should have said this. I shouldn't have said that bad, bad, bad, bad, bad thing to do. So your skill scenario is um you come outside or you come up and then it shows an image of rigid cystoscopy and then the question goes in that you should list the parts of the rigid cystoscope and assemble it. So and, and an inpatient uh in person II do apologize, interview. You would have assembled it yourself but imagine actually talking about this verbally and then trying to assemble it without any label. So it's not like they had ABCD and you can say B goes into C or that no, you needed to know the name. So if you didn't know the name assembling, it might be a bit difficult because you had to say the name to assemble. So that was ma major part of the skills um scenario. Then after you've assembled it, it then went on to what would you need, what else would you need to perform atr BT. So that is based on the picture they gave you what is not there. That is actually very important in um doing a transurethral resection of bladder tumor. And in that picture, your camera is not actually there. So you have your lens or your scope, but you don't have your camera. So you need that and then you don't have your infusion. Those are some of the few other things. So I just wanted to see if actually you've done a cystoscopy yourself and how to remember that you just put yourself in the, in the theater room when you were, what were the things you kind of handed in? What were the things kind of coupled together? So if you don't couple your cystoscopy, probably the next time you are in theaters, ask the nurse, scrub nurse and then she can lead you through it and give you the different names. Cause a few of us don't actually know the names of a few if not all instruments we use because the scrub nurses are usually very educated and good in their job. So if you just go after a case and then ask her and then she can walk you through them and how to operate as well, that would be nice. Um And then they talk about you're not in theaters, walk us through how you do a transitory section. So usually this, you need to clarify. Do they want you to actually start from the briefing? So you do a brief, everybody introduces them. So if you talk about the case, what you need for theaters, the position IV, antibiotics, VT risk, um prevention and things like that or they just wanna tell you all of that has been done, then you're now scrubbed, you're in front of the patient. How'd you do it? So you need to clarify because if you don't start from where they expect you to start, then you might lose points. So um you talk about it, things like, oh I'll put in stellar gel before I put the scope. Everyone knows that you will. But if you don't say it, you might lose points for that. OK? So you, you don't know in, in detail where exactly each point is. So you have to break it down and talk to them like they don't know how to do ATR BT, but you want them to imagine you doing ATR BT. OK. So talk through all the process, you clean the patient steroid drips, all of that instill you, then you go in with your resectoscope or you know, and then go through your urethra bladder, do your inspection and all that. So always say what you're doing. Don't just assume that because they are urology consultant, they would understand what you're saying. Um And then you talk about how do you prevent a perforation? So back again almost to what um was said in the other um in the outpatient uh scenario. But then despite all this, you had the pre preparation, what do you do? So it's all about the skill. OK. If you have a perforation in theaters, then the very first thing is to stop. If your consultant isn't there, then you need your consultant in. Let everyone know that a perforation has occurred. And then you have to examine to actually find out if it's intraperitoneal, extraperitoneal and what you have to do to fix it. Ok. Um And of course, I've put there that as you're talking about this is all practice is that you're an ST three. So before you start every procedure, your consultant must be aware that you're about to start even if he doesn't have to be in theaters. So saying that as well, you probably have a point there. You always have to do an examination on the anesthesia prior to every tr BT because that information is also needed during the MDT. Um Once you're done, you're talking about labels. So confirm your samples, confirm your label, sign it off your upload. What you're gonna put in it as well could be a question. Um And then duty of condo if needed. So if in this case, there was actually a perforation, you need to go and tell the patient what has happened and uh explain to them and then always update the family and then talk about your follow up clinic. Is everyone still? Am I still audible? Yes. Yes, you're with me. Ok. So that's uh the first two, the communication scenario. Your two minutes reading stage is, excuse me, you've been called to see a 45 year old female who is a truck driver by the Ed doctors. This has, this is her second admission with hematuria ba background is that she had an emergency stent inserted four weeks ago for an infected obstructed kidney. She's awaiting uh um uroscopy. She's in a more dynamically stable and she's very angry and wants to talk to the urology. So already before you go in, there are points you can merge. She's 45. She's a female, she's a truck driver. So you're thinking her work, she's gonna be sitting down for a while. That's probably going to be a problem or concern for her. She has been off her work, she has hematuria. So that's also a presentation that I need to check, but she's hemodynamically stable. So those are the things you need to also uh sort out. And then she has a stent for an infected obstructed kidney, but it's four weeks ago. So usually we don't treat stones until like 4 to 6 weeks after. So then you need to be aware of those things. So when you go into this station, I put the again as much information prior to going into the station. So in what they will give you note everything because what you don't want to do is go in and ask her something that you should already know that just shows that you're not very competent. And this is somebody who is angry after your introductions are done. I put the let her talk communication station is not for you. It's for the patient is for them to see how you're empathetic, how you listen and how you take cues from her body language. And what she says, this is not the place to come and show that, you know, urology, your outpatients, your skills and your, you know, emergencies so that communications is the patient. So just let them pour out their hearts, most of the actors, you know, do want you to pass as well. So they would let you know all the things that they, they have, you know, prepped. So just let them talk, ok? And um the patients might be very angry and verbal. They want to also see a reaction, take everything come. Um the patient will be concerned about her work, how it's affecting her quality of life. You need to know that and then she has severe stent symptoms and she wants the stents to be removed. So it's how you explain to her that she has a stone. If you take the stent out, she probably going to come back in with the same pain, the hematuria, if she's emptying her bladder is just part of the stent symptoms. And if there are, you know, like the notes said she's hemodynamically stable, but you have to confirm that as well yourself. So tell her, tell the patient that you want to examine her and all of that, make sure she's ok. And then talk about what you would do to alleviate her pain, how you would help her quality of life. So, um her being a driver, does she need a note seek off? What are the kind of things you can do? And then raise it up with your team that there's a lady who is on the waiting list. She, she doesn't have a date here. It is four weeks and counting. Make sure that she's also on the list. These are things to um take notes. The other thing is you might want to do imaging to see if actually the stent is still in situ in the right place. You may have moved, you may have become dislodged or blocked, things like that you need to check. So handling the hematuria, part of the question is also part of it. But the main thing is just to get or how to talk. But since they said she's hemodynamically stable most of the time, it, it's, they're not gonna give you someone unwell. It will just be how you sort out her stent symptoms, the plan for the operation and any other concerns she raises in that time. Pals is something that is vis a vis your communication station that will be your patient, advise you on services. That's where they can raise concerns and complain about things. And then those people then make sure that things are moving fast. So also state that data if there's any um issues like someone had a misdiagnosis or something wasn't reported. So that, that way you can learn or the team can learn and then you might also give her a phone number of the department so that she can also keep on top of things and then safety net advice. So even though she's stable now, you also have to talk about um what she needs to look out for and then when she needs to come back and put there, be calm throughout, you'd have people through tantrums, you cannot go in there and also through yours. So you have to also be calm. Ok? Um Final scenario is your emergency scenario. So two minutes reading stage, you have been called by the Ed Department for urgent review. 34 year old man fell off a fence. Well, he went out to the pub and he's complaining of abdominal pain, no urine output. And then your next questions would be based on that. Usually it might be longer than that, it might be shorter, it might be different. Um If you open up your medi body meds, the questions may not come like that. So it kind of gives you a rough idea to read about the topic, but how it comes on that day might differ from what it is today because this is not how it is in some um the study med medi body and meds set. So on the day it was a bit different. Mm um So your 13 minutes talking stage that place since it's an emergency scenario. The thing that needs to come out of your mouth among the first thing is that you have to see yourself so you can't delegate your s your sho or FY O to guarantee it's an emergency. So you must attend. If it's a trauma before your ABCD, you have to do your ATL S protocol to make sure that, you know, you, the cervical spine is stabilized. Ed would have done that probably before you come in. But they also want to know that you can state that because you understand the importance of a trauma case and the ATL S protocol, then you can go through your ABCD airway breathing, make sure the patient is stable before you start talking about history examination and investigate as needed. Review available images, discuss with the consultant and then insert a catheter um as required. If they've already done that, then you want to be sure that it's actually in the right place it's flowing and then you might need a cystogram or not. So while you are in the scenario and you've done all of that depending on if you actually said you were go you needed some um investigations, then they bring up act result. So some of the things that you would see it during the interview depends on what you say. So if you do not talk about the fact that oh you want to do act scan, then act report will not be brought to you. If you don't talk about oh, you want to do some blood or basic blood, they will not bring out the blood results if they have it. So it's ensuring that you actually say what needs to be said to bring out the next step. Ok? And try to finish the entire um, scenario. So then they bring out act report and then the CT then shows, oh, there's an intra intraperitoneal tear and, um, what would you do next? And then they usually listen for the fact that you involve other departments because it's an emergency. So you have to talk to Ed, you have to talk to orthopedics, you have to talk to Itu and, and things like that it there a bladder rupture is not an ST three level. So you have to discuss with your consultant because he has to be aware, you have to book the case. What you can do is you book the case, you talk to seaport, you make sure they have all the instruments ready for your consultant. But your consultant would probably be the one to do the uh operation as needed and of course update to the next of care. So I've rumbled through the interview stages. But the main thing is just preparing. Now, I'm gonna talk about pitfalls or things that people do that makes them not prepared for the interviews is that people you say, oh no, I would start when have been shortlisted. You will not get enough time. If you remember my uh colleague's presentation, your short listing would be on the 14th of February thereabouts and the interviews might be just within two weeks. Trust me, two weeks might not be enough, will not be enough to prep to prep. So start from the very start right now. You think, you know, you will, you're planning to do urology, you're planning to apply even while you're going to clinics. Now, start rehearsing how you present the case, how you, what questions you would ask for your outpatient scenario. All of that start practicing early, start early, Don't wait until you're shortlisted. Then you are on calls not planned. So you don't plan ahead of time and then you're doing last minute swabs. Oh sorry, there's nobody to cover you and things like that. You don't want that happening. Plan ahead of time, taking the emotion from one station to the other. If you do that, it would, it would affect your entire station, trust me. So leave everything where they are at the door, leave it there once that station is done, forget about it, making assumptions and not mentioning things. Don't think that oh I didn't send the cystoscope and he didn't say you'd put in still at your first because the person talking to you is a consultant urologist should know, know, say what you need to say. I'll get a sharp one. Say that I'll gain verbal consent for the patient before examining say that don't assume not practicing with others. Yes. Some people say, oh I study better alone. Mm It's good to actually sound off with somebody else, what you sound like and what you look like when you're talking. Ok, so always practice and not resting adequately for the day of the interview. Don't read up all the way to midnight or even to 2 a.m. No, because the interview is what you do every day and what you don't want is for your brain to freeze on the day of the interview. So try to relax before the day two. So in summary, the interview is an online 60 minutes as of now. I don't know if they will change it and it goes to your oy. So outpatient skills communication and emergency four stations, 15 minutes each usually always think about the current situation that you have in front of you. Follow up afterwards plus or minus prevents this. Ok. Safety first and involve others, consultants, other departments, CN SS nurses and things. Practice, practice, practice. Please please please please practice, trust me, practice, start early. Don't leave it for the last minute and apply, apply for study, leave or day off or whatever for the day and have somebody take care of the family. Uh do the ones as needed, attack it station for what it is and leave the emotions from the previous one. And always remember you can do it if, if we go here, so can here. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was really, really expository. Um We had a very beautiful session from Mi bro Dokubo and he, he more like consolidated on the first speaker as well. So we've listened to the bus presentations from both speakers. So it's now time for questions and answers. I can see that um Mr has answered all the questions that um I have been asked in the chat box so far. So if you have anyone that has further questions, um I would want to ask the flow is open for questions. OK. I have a question. My question is um for the uh Medi Body and Mess. Um Are they like paid subscriptions like E MRC S? That's number one. And then the second question is um people also mention joining some courses organized by, I don't know, is he ac or College of Surgeons of England or whatever? So when do these courses get um announced? And which of these courses did um you find helpful? So both of you can actually answer just based on your, on your own experience and based on your experiences. OK. Um The courses I don't know when they open. Um I didn't join any course. Um So I don't know if IO has any input on that. I use the me and you it's paid for. So you pay for it for a duration. I think it is about four months or six months medi body as well. There is a fee for it. I'm lucky enough in my department. The person who made me was a colleague of mine. So he gave me like a discount for medicine. So that's why I use me. But yeah, it is paid for, it's not free. Ok. Yeah, just like she said, um I use Medi body. Um I didn't attend any course um because I don't think you need to do courses but um full disclosure. Um so we've got this, we had um West Midland training did some kind of like sessions for us. It was basically just for our practice sessions with other people just to see what it was like. But honestly, it's basically just practice. I think I started practice on the first of December. So, and it was almost every day today, like a few days before the interview. So yeah, just practice. Read. Ok, thank you. So there's a question in the chat box that um from Charles OJ for being the principal organizer of the relevant course. Does it have to be only urology topic? Can it be a broad surgical topic? Like acute abdomen? Wow. I would say it's difficult for me to say exactly yes or no. But I mean, they put relevant there. So that relevance is a thing we can play with. It's a surgical thing. So, yeah, it should, if that's what you have or you don't have time to do something else, I wouldn't say no to that. But it's basically just playing on what you've said. So they've said relevant too, maybe. Ok. Thank you any other question. I was gonna write something else in addition to what she said. So she said everything beautifully. Well, there's a book that I found useful. It's called the Fr CS Pink book. I forgot. I do, I do apologize. Yes, that is a very important book. It's called Fr CS Pink Book. Um, the level there is way up onto Fr CS. But the good thing is that the basics are the same thing. And honestly, if you just say the way they've said it there, you don't have to go into like when they start cutting papers and everything. But the initial parts are where the questions are from. They, they wouldn't go into deeper stuff, but book was actually very good. It's called, I don't know that I've forgotten the full name but Fr CS and in addition, if you are the kind of person that Ls by listening, so I use lots of Spotify podcasts, so it kind of allow me to just be in the moment when, when I'm going anywhere, I'm just always listening to them. So there's this Fr CS podcast. It's just beautiful. It's on Spotify and they explained everything. So your consultant actually speak in interview kind of speak. So you understand the way they want you to talk, even the Fr CS level. So you can take that and apply some of those and always reminding, put that you are an three, you do this, you will do that but you can see whatever they said and honestly helps a lot. Hello? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Oh, ok. Ok. So thank you. Um There are further questions in the chart box. Um So Charles Ojo has also acts that um oh sorry Mahmoud acts um that I think you said and I use the audits. I have presented in international conference to claim points in both presentations and audits. Let me just give you a straight to that. The answer is no, because I got point stuff here. So uh basically, if anything that makes you look like you are claiming two different points with one thing, try to avoid it. If you can't, if you don't have any other thing to do, of course, put it in there. But if you can avoid that, there's no point trying. Um ifs and buts so I would say, I don't think you can. OK? Thank you very much. And then OK, thank you. And then just went. Yeah, please. If like you can't do what I was saying to have different things. The other way you can transfer or converse, they may cut you out. I mean, if, if all you have is all you have, all you can do is you save it as a different name. So the same, yeah, so the same document I would explain. So when you put the document the first time, like the audit that you've done, you put it as audit, right? And then you submit that. Now, if you've used that same audit and it's International conference, don't put the audit in the international conference, put the certificate in the International conference that way, it doesn't look like it's the same audit, but it doesn't show us the same evidence. So in scenarios like that you might get away with it. But if you can then just do it separately, this is for like if there's nothing else you have and this is all you have. You might get lucky. There's two different people looking at the two different sides and then it will get through. Thank you. Um And then KBI so acts that does Ribe scholarship counts as awards. Well, it depends on how you play it, right? So I've tried to go through what they said. So they said I've been awarded any medical postgraduate first prizes, blah, blah, blah, including research awards and traveling fellowships. So it all depends on how you sell it to them that you are giving this award because you were excellent at something to come, do some research to come, do some work. Yeah, of course they should, it's basically selling the story. Yeah, that's what I would say. So for example, if there was like a postgraduate maybe commonwealth scholarship stuff and you've gotten that grant, which is what it is because you were excellent at something I think you should be able to sell it and you should be able to accept it. I would say put it in your awards. What is the worst thing? OK, thank you. Um The other thing I wanted to also add to um the evidence is whatever you think would help you, you have to put it up the very first time because if you don't put it up the very first time, then what happens is that you can't now say, oh no, I have something else that can help me. No, no, no. Put everything that you think would help, make sure you put everything. Don't let anybody don't leave room for confusion. So if you have four evidences, put all four, the worst case scenario is that they remove it, but you cannot re ADDD if there are any concerns down the line, so add everything. OK? So if I get that rightly, so for example, in teaching, if you organize the course and you're also part of the faculty organizing courses and not just put all of those things in one place, OK? Not, not that you're putting, not that you're putting your is points like the one that will give you the is we just put everything there. Because if yeah, why I would say that? Because if they decide that your highest point is actually not a point, then your second point will still get you something. OK? All you don't want is that oh you could have put this, then you didn't put it and then no, it's gone. OK. Yeah. Cool. First order also counts as first order. Well, doesn't it, it should, from my experience it's counted anyway. So, I don't know. That's the answer I can't give you as long as it's clearly stated somewhere. That is your co first or yes, it does count. OK. Any other question? Yeah. So I think, um, given the fact that we had several questions from the audience, it showed that as this justice to these um topics and um we really appreciate them for their time and making the session very enlightening, very expository. And we also appreciate the fact that they shared from their own experience. And um it's has really made us more clear about what we need to expect in the coming months. So we appreciate you for um taking out time of your busy schedule to um make this presentation. Thank you so much. Um The final thing I would say is um we encourage everyone to attend our regular teaching sessions in urology C GF. Um We can actually share um the link to general urology CgA. So those that are not part of us already. And then um there will be a final symposium um for the year where we'll be inviting renowned um urologists to take us to do certain things that um are important in our practice. So let's try to clear our schedule for the last Saturday in November. We'll be we're planning to organize a very big um virtual symposium. I would invite um senior colleagues in the field. Thank you very much, everyone for attending this session and a very big, thank you to our speakers and have a great evening everyone.