This on-demand teaching session offers medical professionals insight on how to gain their CT1 successfully in surgical training. Three current CT1s will share their experiences, including Alex who completed a Clinical Teaching Fellowship in their F3 year. This session will cover how to find the best teaching jobs, tips on making the most of a teaching F3, top tips for getting into core surgical training, and top tips for the application process in general. It will be an informative and interactive session that will help medical professionals succeed in their training and applications.
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Do you want to know how to use your F3 year to maximise your chances of a successful surgical training application?

Find some answers at the F3 Series 2023-24: The Surgical F3 event. Our three speakers are all applicants who successfully achieved core surgical training posts in 2023 after having taken an F3 year. We have one Orthopaedic themed applicant, one General Surgery themed applicant (who is currently working in paediatric surgery), and one ENT themed applicant.

Hear about how they planned their year and their tips for a competitive portfolio. There will then be a live Q&A session.

Learning objectives

Learning Objectives: 1. Understand the different types of teaching fellowships available and the range of roles offered (e.g. 100% teaching, part teaching/part clinical commitment). 2. Learn how to source and locate a teaching fellowship role (e.g. NHS jobs, track jobs). 3. Gain insight into making the most of a teaching fellowship, such as forms of successful audit and research, and ideas for teaching programs and leading projects. 4. Appreciate the importance of being systematic in choice of audits and presentations, and the benefits of closing the loop and representing results. 5. Recognize the value of seeking advice and practicing with seniors when considering core surgical training and interviews.
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Computer generated transcript

The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

Uh Hi there everyone. Um We'll just wait a few more minutes for a couple of people to join and then we'll get started. Right? Should we get going? So, um, hi guys. Thanks everyone for coming. Um Welcome to the Portfolio Clinics, um free series. So today we're, it's the surgical F three talk. So we've got three speakers. Um So thanks for thank you for agreeing to speak. Um who are all ct ones um successfully in course surgical training. Um And they're all gonna talk to you about what they did in their threes to help them to successfully gain a place essentially. So, um if we start with Alex, um So as I say, a Alex was ct one who did a um teaching J CF, was it that you did? But I'll let him tell you more about that. Thank you, Anna. Hi, everyone. So my name is Alex. I'm act one currently rotating in pediatric surgery and I've done a clinical teaching fellowship as my f three year. Uh Can everyone see my slides? Yeah, we can see. Ok, so I'm just gonna talk a little bit about uh my journey so far up to CT one briefly. So graduated in 2020 from Birmingham. I did F one and F two with a variety of different jobs, not uh surgery, heavy, but uh broad experience. And then for my teaching fellowship, I uh chose uh surgical specific teaching fellowship. So six months teaching general surgery, six months TN mainly to third year medical students, but also with some uh bedside teaching for second years including uh clinical examinations and histories. Uh In my particular teaching fellowship, there was no formal clinical commitment or ward based shifts and things like that. But we did have time available to attend theaters, work on projects and audits for our portfolios. And I'll touch a bit about the different roles later on that you can have as a teaching fellow. So in terms of how you find teaching jobs, if that's something you're interested in, uh it's not on Aureo like your F one f two jobs or training jobs. So you'll have to look at NHS jobs or track jobs and there's different types that you can do. So you can have 100% teaching or you could have some that are 5050 teaching, teaching and clinical or 7020 then have some 10% doing anything other than teaching. Uh You can have some on calls uh included there or just ward based and uh teaching on the side. Uh they can be university based or you could be employed by an NHS trust, teaching students uh over there. Uh And then in terms of other opportunities, you could do some locums on the side if you're university based and you want to keep up with the clinical side of things. Uh But you could have your uh clinical commitments timetabled in if that's the one you go for. Uh in terms of uni versus NHS trust, you have to consider things like uh your years of service for annual leave. If you're employed by a trust uh university, you have the long uni holidays when the students aren't around. So there's pros and cons to uh either of those. So it's just uh worth doing a little bit of research uh seeing what you're interested in and these usually start popping up around March April time, er on track or NHS jobs after training offers have come out. Uh and people are considering different options but some might uh start appearing in January or even December. So it's good to keep checking um depending on location or other factors that you might be considering to where you want to work uh and see regularly if there's anything uh suitable. So in terms of making the most of your teaching F three in terms of getting into core surgical training, uh I've included a few top tapes for different domains of the portfolio and other things you might uh be considering uh and how to make the most of it as a teaching fellow because you're not purely clinical. Uh in terms of surgical cases, I would recommend doing a trust based role rather than university unless you've got time to do locums because you know, the staff there, you might be supervised by a consultant surgeon. Such was a case in my teaching fellowship. So we had an educational supervisor who could uh let us know what's going on in theater, introduce us to other of his colleagues that we could go and help. So in terms of surgical cases, clinical exposure, that's better to be based in a hospital environment, even if you don't have a formal ward or teaching commitment. So in terms of doing audits or other research project, it's good to try and find a supervisor and express your interest early on to your clinical or educational supervisor. Uh See, that's something you want to do and then get it started early so that you could get it out of the way and try to close the loop, which is the important thing for CST applications. So uh in terms of choice of audit as well, be systematic with what you do because you might find people uh telling you about exciting and interesting projects that sound very ambitious, but then you might find yourself spending a lot of time on it, but it doesn't lead anywhere in the end. So even if it's a simple VT E audit, as long as you've done it twice that's what they care about and you've presented the results. So that's a closed loop audit. It gets you maximum points and you're more efficient about how you spend your time uh teaching and leadership. So in terms of my experience, the education department was really good in terms of providing extra opportunities for us. Uh So I had some good CTF colleagues and together we organized International online course on I MG wanting to work in the NHS and how you could get your first NHS role, which counts as your teaching program. I am aware that now that's been changed to an in person teaching program for this application cycle. So if you do organize something, it would be better to aim it at your uh audience and your trust or try to do something in person rather than online, but online will still get you enough points. So you don't have to have maximum by any means at every single category to secure a job and leadership wise. So our department provided us with an opportunity to organize a junior doctors conference for the East Midlands for people who haven't had the chance to attend a conference or present a poster. And we had doctors come from all over the region and that was good experience of organizing events and get you points for the leadership section of the portfolio as we spend a six month period as a committee organizing that. Uh And again, in terms of presentations. Uh You can present your audits at conferences that you organize or that you attend in the area. Again, speak to your supervisor and through your department, both at university or trust based is a very good thing for that because there's a lot of educators with interesting ideas both in med ed if that's something you want to pursue further, but also in terms of clinical things. So again, a bit easier if you're trust based to speak to a consultant uh in your hospital and go to a department of your chosen specialty. And again, a lot of teaching fellow jobs come with funded PG certs courses that you can do. And that would get you full points for training and teaching category. Definitely for core training for some specialties, even for registrar training. And I know a lot of people do that in their own time and have to pay tuition fees out of their own pockets. But as part of some teaching fellowships, you can get that for free funded by your trust or your university. And I know people who had already done APG cert and they got their diploma or even master's funded by their trust. So that's another thing you can consider. And then obviously, I had to include something abroad related. If I'm doing an F three talk, that's just inevitable. So top picture is us uh presenting at a conference in Valencia on the course that we organized and bottom picture, far less exotic it back in Leicester. And that's us uh in the conference that we organized. So that just shows you the opportunities available. So from one project, we were able to secure our teaching points from doing that course. And then we presented it internationally. So that's your presentation points covered. And then through the conference, we got uh leadership experience. So a lot of opportunities within departments and if you have a good set of colleagues to consider uh apart from the teaching side of things, which is also uh very enjoyable and gets you uh set up for a future career in education if that's something you want to pursue, but also helps with your portfolio and just some final top tips, as I'm sure I don't have very long left uh in terms of the application in general. So if you do know you want to go from CSD, you're in F one F to start working as early as you can on the portfolio, make yourself familiar with the A page, what they're looking for and what's the best way for you to cover those points. Uh And again, be efficient with what you're aiming for. So obviously, it's not realistic within a year or two years to get a master's or a phd. But you can do a closed loop audit fairly easily if you're systematic with what you pick. And that gets you a high number of points in terms of the M SRA, which is a new thing that no one likes that. It's the reality of applications now. Uh A lot of people will tell you different strategies. But for me, it's just doing a lot of past questions online, both the past papers and online banks goes, it's a very broad exam. So I wouldn't recommend just learning the entirety of medicine through textbooks. But by doing a lot of questions, you start recognizing patterns and a lot of the themes repeat. So that's a good tactic for that. And in terms of surgical interview, so there's a clinical scenario, make sure you know, your common general surgery and maybe some of the orthopedic emergencies and practice with seniors in your department if you can because it's always good to practice with peers as well. But with a senior, like a registrar and a consultant, they have more experience of going through interviews and uh situations like that and they can give you feedback from their perspective on what they would look for in a candidate. So I think I covered most of the things in the brief time I had, I wanted to say about teaching jobs f three in general and just CST applications. And I'm happy to answer any questions later on if there's something uh you guys would like me to expand on a bit further. Great. Thank you very much Alex. Um That was really interesting to hear about um what you did for your F three. as Alex was saying, if you guys have any questions or if anything comes up throughout listening to our talks, if you just pop them in the chat, um, and then we can answer them at the end. Um, so you don't have to come and ask them in person. Um, so next we'll go to Matt who's also, um, act one. but I'll let him introduce himself. Thanks. Hi, everyone. My name is Matt. I'm Act one currently on an orthopedic them track in the northwest. I'm gonna give you a brief talk about my GF year, which was a full nonteaching GSF year in trauma and orthopedics. So firstly, I'll just go through why I did a year out and then specifically why I chose AJC F your job as opposed to the standard um law and holiday, which seemed or used to be extremely popular. Uh then talk through the benefits of the job that I particularly had and then a couple of top tips after that. So firstly, my position graduated the same year as Alex 2020 F one and F two had a very similar job mix actually. Um throughout F one and F two ensured that I had a s surgical job in both. I had a vascular job in F one and then trauma in orthopedics in F two going into F one and F two. I already knew that I wanted to do surgery particularly orthopedics. So I already started to think early, you know, what sort of things am I gonna be doing after the foundation? Do I want to go straight into training? They'll wanna take some time out. Sub was the COVID foundation years. So all the benefits of everything outside of the foundation was taken away. Socials were gone. Everything else was sort of put to the side. So that was one of the big in influencing factors for me. Really, I just wanted to get through foundation, have a year to sort of reset. I didn't apply for um CST straight after F two, decided to take this year out sort of reenter and focus on my career. So why did I choose AJ ACF role? So I stayed in the same hospital that I worked in for F one and F two. I got to know the department very well during my F two job and I was actually offered um to continue as AJ ACF um which is something I was very keen to do and for the, the reasons I've mentioned here. So for me, it was a fixed time in a chosen subspecialty. It meant normal, rotating a year focused and specialty that I wanted to develop my knowledge and skills in uh which then led to me getting a lot of relevant experience. So I managed to get over 100 and 50 cases um in theater in my F three year, managed to complete my ST three numbers um that are relevant for application. So it was a very, very supportive uh department and a good environment for sort of building not only a CST portfolio but an ST three portfolio as well. Um Not sure why it's put a, a couple of my sur at theater apologies for that. So the benefits of the year, so I developed a lot of really good working relationships um particularly with my er consultants, clinical supervisors, educational supervisors were retired into the job. Um And that's led to still ongoing sort of unofficial mentorship. Really. Um job satisfaction was the main thing. So I enjoyed working in that department when I was there a lot of time in theater, great um sort of working group staff, nurses consultants, which for me was the main thing I wanted out of. Um the JSF EI knew I wanted to get time in theater. I wanted to build my portfolio, but I also wanted to enjoy working in the department that I was working in. So that's why I chose to stay at the trust I was already at before. Um applying for a CST I put on their exam prep as well. So it was useful um prepped for and past my MRC S part A in my GF year. Um I was going to do part B but then as Alex has already mentioned, they introduced an exam called the M SRA um much to my Joy. Um I'm not gonna talk about that. I think Alex has covered that very well already. Um theater I've touched on already, but I'm most of my colleagues who have done J CF roles. Not necessarily this one in this trust have all met significant um increases in their numbers and actually met their ST three portfolio and number requirements for cases teaching opportunities as well. So again, I had the benefit of it being the same trust. I went to the uh foundation team set up a regional teaching program and use that again, not only to you know, for portfolio points, but also to continue developing my teaching skills and get a number of presentations and things done. So that was another useful opportunity linked through the same trust as Alex has already mentioned, you can get plenty of courses and things done as as you need to audit and research are important. But again, I think Alex has covered that really well. You don't have to your mental picking some super complex audits or really ambitious research projects, especially to get into core training as long as it's double cycled presented, then you're fine in the the last thing there a contract. Now, the reason I mentioned that in here is because II was in a position where I was trying to buy a house um moving into a three. So having a fixed contract, a fixed place of work and regular income was sort of massive in actually managing to secure a mortgage. So if you're in that sort of position or thinking about doing something like that, then that is another benefit of having a AJC F EA where you've got a fixed place of work and a fixed contract. Two things I wish I'd done differently. So one is involving myself in research. It was something that I started to get involved in. Um the more I started to think about my ST three portfolio um but missed an opportunity or two actually. So it's something that if you definitely know you want to apply to a certain subspecialty, have a look at their ST three requirements in particular, their research requirements and then try and get projects started early. And then second sort of it ties into that look at the ST three portfolio. Although you'll be gearing towards some form of um post surgical training job, it's always useful to be thinking a step ahead and build your portfolio for the next step because um these four months have already flown by and I'm sure the full two years will as well the drawbacks to consider. So some of the things I've mentioned as benefits are actually drawbacks for other people. So not everyone wants to be in a fixed place, not everyone wants to have the standard on call ROTA, um which can be brutal at times as we all know, total time out of foundation is something to consider as well. So some uh ST three portfolio requirements or self assessment scores start to penalize you after a certain period out of training. So just make sure again if you know what subspecialty you want to go into, have a look at their ST three requirements because it may be something that um can be hindering you as, as well at, at the same time as as benefits in you and all the things I've mentioned, experience numbers research, they're not guaranteed, which leads me on to my next points really, um how it impacted my own portfolio things. I've mentioned really significant increase in sort of operative ability, knowledge in my Children, subspecialty part A met the operative numbers and managed to get a couple of audits in Q RPS completed as well as the regional teaching program I mentioned there as well. Um And of course, we got CSIA, which was the most important thing. Would I do it again? Absolutely. So I've said to colleagues, um ever since actually leaving this team that it was the best thing I've decided to do it, set me up well, for core training, not only in terms of getting into core training, but the sort of not confidence as such, but there's, you know, self assurance that when you're starting a, a surgical training job, you've been in theater before, you've managed it on call before and you're confident and, and comfortable in doing that. And I think it set me up really well and it was the best decision I've made for sure. So top tips moving forwards, consider firstly who you want to be and what you want to be. So if you definitely know you want to be an orthopedic surgeon or a general surgeon or ent surgeon, whatever, always be looking a couple of steps ahead, make sure you hit the CST requirements. Yes, but also look at your ST three requirements also really important for me. It was the fact that I managed to stay local with this job. So also considering your geography, if you've got reasons to be in a specific area, be it family, you know, property, whatever, always consider that. And I think AJC FE is a really good way to, to guarantee yourself to stay in a year, um a single place for a full year. And as I was saying, all of the things I've talked about aren't guaranteed in JF you, you could easily cruise through and get none of this done. So it's always important to make sure that you're proactive, you're prepared, you come to the theater, knowing the case, knowing the operation steps, you prep for your clinics, you prep your own uh time aside for research and things like that and be persistent, not everything works, you'll get research knocked back and things like that. But if you're persistent proactive and prepared, you'll do, you'll do yourself well. So thank you very much for your time. I'm more than happy to answer any questions if anyone's got any after this. So, um I'll lead you back to honor. Thank you. All right, thanks very much, Matt. Um I think that's really highlighted the importance of being prepared and um organized and also it sounds like you used your F three to, to help you with your ready training as well, which is kind of useful to hear about. Um So last, but not least we've got Tom, um who is also act one. and I'll hand you over. Great. Thank you very much and uh hopefully those slides are showing now. Um So my name is Tom. I'm also act one in the Northwest er on an ent theme track. Um I'm gonna try not to step on Alex's toes too much cos I also did a clinical teaching fellowship, er for my F three year. Um So some of this will look probably sound familiar from Alex's Talk, but I'll just try and pick out some um things that were a bit different in my um F three year. Um So a bit about me. So, um I did uh my foundation training in West Midlands. Um I did apply unsuccessfully hence why I'm giving this talk to um CST after, well, during my F two year to start straight away, however, was not successful and on reflection, I think that was a lot to do with the portfolio actually. Um So hopefully this shows that if you are getting to the earlier, you start the better. But if you are getting towards the end of F two, and you think my portfolio is not good enough, then there's certainly room to improve that quite quickly if you get into the right F three program. Um So I applied for C TF jobs and I wanted to stay in the West Midlands. So applied for C TF jobs in the West Midlands. Um And as Alex said, these are not advertised through oral um like training programs. This is usually advertised through NHS jobs um or track. And er, I think, yeah, the, the closing dates for those are kind of early next year or early, early in the year. So if you keep an eye out, now, that's probably the best thing. Um and then I was um appointed to um what they called a hybrid clinical teaching fellow um in somewhere in West Birmingham. Um Now the hybrid part was slightly different to what Alex was talking about. So mine was also completely um nonclinical, but I did 50% as a clinical teaching fellow, teaching. Um basically the clinical years uh from Birmingham Medical School, but also I did 50% as a simulation fellow. So that was d delivering simulation to foundation trainees um mainly but also doing some specialty simulation as well. Um which I'll come onto is a really er useful I have that was my favorite part of the job and it also allowed me to take a bit more of a leadership role on that side of things. Um So this is kind of like flogging the same point. But why do the, why do it a, a three year and particularly a clinical teaching fellowship? So, um it's very flexible and varied work, I would say. So the, the job that I did, they protected at least um one session a week. So one half day a week and they allowed us to kind of accrue that time. So if we wanted to do, you know, a couple of days a month, then um that we could use for our own clinical interest, basically. So if you do um get to interview at C TF, it might be worth just asking the interview panel about this, whether there is um an option to have some protected clinical time. Um That was really useful because then you are not on an on call rota, you're not being used as a kind of ward job monkey. You can go and do whatever you want to do. So that involved just attaching myself to one of the consultants and um joining them in theater 11 or two days a month, which was good. Um As I already mentioned, try and get some Q I research started as early as you can in your at three year just so that you can get the most out of it. Really, that is the advantage of doing one of these um, more permanent f three jobs is that you're not moving around all the time. So you get to make better relationships with people, people trust you a bit more and you can actually see out, uh, see out these projects rather than having to rotate every four months or if you're doing a locum job, then it's very difficult to get these started. Um As part of the uh the, the um er as part of the program, we actually put together the uh the teaching program for the, the third year medical students. So that allows you to tick the box of developing and running um a teaching program which gives you the most points in that domain of the portfolio. Um And it also allows you to interact and teach various students which then once you get starting teaching the final years, particularly towards the end of the year, it is starting to test your clinical knowledge. Believe me, it's a lot, I had forgotten a lot of things. So it is actually very useful to um get that, that revision and get you ready for doing your exams. Actually. Um As I already mentioned, there's the uh the C TF I did have no on call responsibilities that might be a benefit or some people might see that as a negative. But um that was quite nice to have a more 9 to 5 regulator, you can actually start to plan things at weekends and stuff. Um, as Alex mentioned, we, I think most, er, C TF jobs will fund APG cert for you. Um, the CPG set that I did was at Birmingham University. Um, I was told that actually you can decide if you didn't want to do it locally, you could do it virtually, um, distance learning. So if you had a particular PG set that you were interested in completing the Dundee one I hear is very good. So if you wanted to do that, then you can do that remotely as well, um And they'll still fund that. Um And I would say, you know, financially, I thought it was gonna be quite a shock to go and do something that's not on call, but it is a step up from F two because you are joining the kind of third nodal point um as act one in most cases, I think there is a bit of variation in pay, but it's, you know, it's, it's achievable. Um So just quickly, I think these are the kind of aspects that I managed to tick off or you should certainly quite straightforwardly tick off. Um And this is the, this is actually the portfolio from or the portfolio points from last year. Um So as mentioned, if you get in early with a consultant and even if you're not doing any clinical work, you can certainly get into theater a lot. Um, so getting your, the cases that you need. Um, and as Matt said, I, that was a tip that I have definitely come to learn a bit too late, but just try and look to the next step even though you want to get into C TF. Certainly look to the ST three applications because as we're finding the, er, CST, well, CT one year is already almost, you know, half gone. So you, you want to try and get started as early as possible. Um, we've talked about audits. So again, it's a good opportunity to being in one place to get a decent audit done. Um, there's lots of presentations and publications, there's lots of um, educational, er, events going on all over the country. So, and they are very encouraging that you attend these. Um, as I said, you will be hard pressed not to complete to get the most points in the teaching experience side of things because you are gonna be developing and delivering um, a regional teaching program. Um, and then the PG cert, which is actually not worth very many points, but for the amount of effort that it is, but it's still there and it's being funded. So it's a no brainer really. Uh Yeah. So, um, we've talked about that how to become, act f but just maybe a few things about how to enhance your application. So if you're um in foundation training at the minute, just try and, um, find the, the local um, educational department and just ask them if you can be involved in some medical student teaching whenever you do any teaching, try and just get some feedback, you just always have some feedback forms with you printed out that you can just get people to scribble some feedback on. And then that's good, helps with your, um horus portfolio anyway. But it's also good to then take forward to er interviews for clinical teaching fellowships. Um And then if you can be involved in any um any regional or national teaching societies and that's very useful. So NST S is a good example and they're, it's all virtual, so it's very easy to attend meetings and things like that. Um And I think that's it. So a little bit of repetition from Alex. Um But any questions, I'll be happy to answer those questions about uh about the C TF year. Well, thank you very much, Tom. Um That was really interesting to hear about a bit more about teaching. Um F three. I've just got a few slides to share as well before we move on to the questions. Um So this is just ano another one of the um schemes that the portfolio clinic has running um which is kind of actually quite relevant to, to this talk. Um So it is our um I MG surgical mentorship program. Um So essentially it, if you can, you're eligible if you are an international medical graduate um that has the right to um work in the UK and you're interested in surgery essentially. Um And what will happen is that you're paired with a mentor um who will kind of essentially offer mentorship on portfolio development. Um Give you some advice on your specialty applications, um set some goals and you can organize some meetings um kind of consistently to, to help you with your application, which is quite relevant cos the deadline for course surgical training applications is coming up really soon. Um So there's a link below. Um You re register essentially through the portfolio clinic site. Um if that's something that you're interested in. Um And as I was saying, it's it kind of to support international med medical graduates um in their careers in surgery. Um So just moving on, does anyone if anyone has any questions, don't be afraid to put them in the chat? I know, I certainly have a few. Um I know that Matt, you already mentioned what you could change what you would change if you did your F three a year again in your presentation. But Alex and Tom, is there anything that you would change? Um having the knowledge that you have now, um If you were starting F three again, I would probably say the main thing is uh similar to what Matt said, I would try and get involved in more research activities early on because that gets you um really ahead in terms of your ST three applications and it's something that I don't have a lot of experience. Uh I've done presentations and audits but not many publications or other research projects, which is something I'm looking into doing now for uh my ST three application. So I just uh wish I would have looked at the criteria earlier on and started preparing when I had my uh f three year and I had more time. Yeah, I think to echo that the other thing is just looking that step ahead and it's all, it's always very daunting. As soon as you're out, you have to start looking to the next, the next step. But, um, as Alex said, things like research, take a long time and if you can at least start something and get, get a pretty good grounding in the F three year, then a lot of the stuff can be done remotely. So if you do move away from area, at least you've made those connections. But I think starting early in your F three year is important. Um, and then similarly, as Matt said, it's important that you start to think about those, er, core cases that they want you to be competent at, by the time you start ST three and an F three year is a pretty good time to do it. If you can find a sympathetic supervisor to help you through that process, I think. Fantastic. So I just got a question from Harri. Um Can you please share the link for the I MG mental program? So, yeah, I will do, I'll just pop it in the chat. Um So you can apply through this pro through this link essentially and there's a button to apply and you can fill in a form. Um And then someone should be in contact with you. Um I know I have another question. Um It's more for, I know Alex, you said that you wish that you got involved in a bit more research in your uh three years. So it's more for Matt and Tom, how specifically, or like how easy was it to find um research opportunities? And, um how did you get involved in it essentially? I think that's the same as one of the other questions in the chat. Um How do we get started in research? I think quite a lot of people. Yeah. Good question. So, um initially, the, the first thing I ended up getting involved in was um a case report and that's how it then started from there. Really? Um So we had a particularly interesting rare presentation to our department. Uh went to my consultant, asked if you, you know, if he was happy for me to write it up, found out who the research lead was for the department. Um, and then took things from there really. Um And after leaving the department, sort of kept in contact with the same teams, their research teams, um colleagues who are keen for research and started to build projects with them. Um But, you know, I'm not, there's no illusion these aren't common things. Research is hard to get into to start from scratch. I haven't started anything other than a case series from, from scratch. So in terms of getting involved, it's good to find out early who's the lead for research in that department or wherever you're working at the moment. Um How you can get involved with them, what projects they've got up and coming because in a lot of the ST three applications as well as getting points for research that you're a first authoring, you get points for other bits of research that you're participating in or presenting. So if there's anything that particularly interests you or is ongoing through um their preexisting sort of research team is you would be a good idea to get in contact with them and try and see what you can jump on to and then through knowing people and putting yourself out there opportunities, we'll just, we'll come to you from there. Yeah, I think to add, add to that um to the, if you look for the Associate P I Scheme on the National Institute of Health. So I did that as an F two. So that, I mean, it's a, it sounds good but it, it's supposed to put you through kind of your paces and learn a bit about how research works and that sort of stuff. It's quite a lot of effort, but it does allow you to get in contact with the local, um, research department. And if they have any research that's ongoing, um then you can get involved um, initially as a kind of associate investigator and then later on, they'll come to you to, to lead on smaller projects. Um, the problem I find with research is it is a lot of work and you don't necessarily get anything out of it at the end, which could be quite demoralizing. Um So I think it is, as I've already mentioned, just being a little bit selective about what it is that you decide to do. And um case reports are a very good way because um if you submit them to B MJ case reports that they, they, it's a quite a nice way of getting your name as a first author. Yeah, just add to what Tom said there as well in the sense that um yes, you can, you can do things locally, but there are also a number of collaborative groups. And when I was an interim foundation doctor working down in Hull, um there was quite a large collaborative going on um during COVID called COVID Surgery Collaborative. And that was sort of a nice way to research as well. Um There are a number of ongoing collaborative um so groups in a number of specialties at the moment which produce things both nationally and internationally. Um, so again, if you know exactly what you want to be looking at, you could try and find these groups through the relevant people in your departments or trusts and again, to talk to them, what Tom said about it being useful. It's, it's sort of a good way to think of it is to try and kill two birds with one stone. So if you try and find something that is interesting to you that you will pursue as well as getting it published, you can then also submit it to presentation. So you're getting either a national or international presentation from your work as well as an authorship. And that will get you the points for both at the same time and therefore reduce the amount of time that you essentially wasted on um products that you either aren't interested in or um projects that you're not looking into. Well, that's really useful to know. Um And then remember guys, if you've got any questions um pop them in the chat. Um and we can, we can answer them, but I've got, I've got one more of my own. Um But essentially how important was region um of the country for you when you were applying for your course surgical place. Was it kind of more advantageous? Um as it being the same one as where you did your F three or did you want to go somewhere different, kind of interested to hear. So personal circumstances. Um So I had a house at the time. So yes, I think that kind of you, by the time you finish F two, then you might well have kind of commitments to stay in one area. Um But I think if you are a bit more flexible than actually moving regions is really useful. Um I've moved region for starting core trading and I actually think kind of going out of your comfort zone again and discovering a new region and things do actually work very differently between hospitals and then between regions. So I think if you don't have to stay in one place, then actually moving around can be a very useful way of making new connections and seeing how things work differently elsewhere. Yeah, just to echo Tom, I've been in the same situation. So end of F three, I didn't have any commitments at the time keeping me to a region. So I've been in the Midlands for about eight years from the start of UNI until F three. And now I've moved down to London for core training. So yeah, it's good to get different experience from different places, uh different supervisors and just see how other trusts work. So yeah, pretty much the same for me, but it really depends on everyone's personal situation. And F one F two, if you're an IMG as well applying from abroad, it also depends on where there are jobs available in terms of your f three years, then making those initial connections, you might want to stay around just because, you know, people to get involved in those audits and those research projects. So that would be another factor apart from family situation and housing to keep you in arm place. But again, if you move to a new region, you can start afresh and make new connections, new projects. So it's good either way, I think it depends on the person for me personally, um If you haven't heard a guess from the things I've alluded to in my presentation, I for me, I did F one F two in the same region, the J CF in the same region and I only applied for co training in one region. Um for a number of personal circumstances, I had a house at the start of uh or at the end of my F three when I was applying for co training. Um I want to work in this region long term. And for me, some people have are of the opinion that they'll happily move anywhere and everywhere for their job. And that's completely fair enough if you haven't got those commitments. But I'm also of the opinion that if you have commitments that you value significantly, be it family or, or various other reasons, then it is still possible to get into co surgical training and then move on to higher surgical training as a number of my colleagues have done um within one region. So it's, it's something worth considering about. Um you know, do you want to stay somewhere long term, build relationships within a region, long term? Um Do you have a reason to stay in one region? But again, as alluded to by Tom and Alex are significant benefits of moving region as well, both in terms of developing sense of the person meeting new teams working in different regions and seeing how different trusts work. So there's benefits to both, but it is possible to stay in one region. I've, I've got just a comment that's going to turn into a question to Matt that I think um certainly if you want to do some clinical work for an F three year, then it's probably nice to have those connections that you've worked with before so that they know your capabilities and you can kind of hit the ground running. I think, talking to some of our ct one colleagues who have worked in the same hospital before they tend to kind of hit the ground running a bit faster just because the consultants know them and know what their capabilities are. So you kind of get rid of that period where um you're not really trusted to do very much. So II would be interested to know whether you found that map compared to maybe people who came out of the area to do a Yeah, that's a good point. So, at the moment, um, um, although I'm going back to orthopedics in February, I'm currently working in general surgery, so it's slightly different at the moment. Um, however, there are colleagues of mine working in that, er, who have worked with previously in orthopedics, working in the same hospital that I'm in now who I've been to theaters with, to do cases when I've not been in general surgery for theater or say, you know, our list has been stepped down or whatever. So it's nice to have those connections, know the senior registrars, know the consultants. And it, you know, for me, it's, I think it's gonna be beneficial moving forwards. I've already had good chats with the registrars that I'm moving to work with in my next job. So I think yes, I already having worked with people and developed relationships will allow you to earn money as you've mentioned because a key thing and it's completely understandable if you look at it sort of retrospectively starting in a new place for people who haven't worked with you before and walking in saying, can I do this operation is a big thing to ask for and it takes a while to develop working relationships and trust. So if you've got that in advance, I think, yes, it, it would help you. That's a very useful, useful perspective to have. Um, just if you're considering what region, whether to stay in the same region or move. I'm, I'm sure everyone's got all of you three have slightly differing perspectives, which is quite interesting to hear. Um, any final comments from, um, any of you see, we've got no more questions in the chart as far as I concern. Fantastic. Well, thank you, um Alex Tom and Matt for um giving up their time to, to speak about their three. I'm sure that was kind of very useful for all of us who are thinking about applying to, to listen to. Um, thank you all as well for coming to, to listen. I hope that it was um, interesting for you. Um, don't forget to fill in the feedback forms, um, which should be emailed to you um, after the event because that's always useful for us as well and make sure that we can make future sessions uh, better for you guys. Um, but yeah, thank you very much everyone for coming. Um, and we'll see you next week, uh, or I think it's um, our everything else, a free talk, um, which will have, er, pediatrics, ob gyne and radiology. Um, if that's something that you want to listen to. Um, but