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Key points - ‘Research’ on the shortlisting criteria and apply STRATEGICALLY - Keep your options ‘OPEN’ & have a plan B - Show your APTITUDE, INTEREST and EXPERTISES - Provide easily-verified ‘STRONG/ CONVINCING’ evidence for points - Be PASSIONATE, natural, genuine at interviews


Join us this evening with our guest speaker Prof Paul Baker (Northwest Foundation School Director and Dr Sunil Daga (Yorkshire Academic Lead) who will be answering the questions you have about the specialised foundation programme or clinical academia in general.

If you have any questions that would like answered, please filled up the form:

Learning objectives

Learning Objectives: 1. Explain the structure and purpose of the SFP (Specialty Foundation Program) 2. Identify the various types of skills and aptitudes that may be beneficial when applying for an SFP position. 3. Analyze the differences in application criteria among different foundation school directors. 4. Demonstrate an understanding of the competing demands of the SFP such as research and clinical duties. 5. Summarize the considerations for including incomplete research projects in SFP applications.
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Computer generated transcript

The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

I hope you can all hear me? Good. Um, so good evening from Yorkshire. I'm Sunil. I'm one of the consultant nephrologist um in Leeds Teaching Hospital. I'm based at Saint James's Hospital and I've been the academic lead for a specialized foundation program for just over 18 months, two years. And I sort of have the oversight of the program in the Yorkshire and Humber Foundation School. So that's me. Lovely to see you all. And um, can you hear me? Yeah, I'm, I'm Paul Baker. I'm um the um post code deputy dean uh in the north west of England. And, er, one of my roles nationally is to, is to lead on the SFP subcommittee for foundation school directors. So, as you'll see, um, the structure of SFP is loose and variable and what we try and do nationally is bring in a bit of coordination to it. Um, but there are caveats to that and hopefully we can answer that tonight. Yeah. And I suppose, I suppose just to start off, I think, although we have the director of the Foundation of the Yorkshire Foundation School and who might give to get some specific insights about their own. This session is more about general principles and general skills that apply to. And really this is designed to give you an understanding of what the SFP is, how it varies. But the best advice that I think any of us can give you is look on the US, you're looking to apply to because all of them are slightly different and if you can get in contact with an SSP where in the areas you're looking to apply to because they are the ones. Uh So can we move on with the Q and a second? Yeah. So I think we've had loads of questions. Um you know, we compiled um the feedback from the previous session where we had about 100 students attending and I think we had loads of questions about publications in particular and research. Um So I think that the main misconception about the SFP is that, you know, you need to have um alerts of research experience, alerts of publications before you can even think of applying. And, but from my personal experience, you know, when I applied for the SFP, I had um you know, just II I previously, so the only sort of research experience I had, I was doing a BT side dissertation which was a part of my university course and, but I had no previous research experience before. Um and I still managed to get an offer it. So I would strongly, you know, again, I would strongly encourage people to, you know, give it a shot even if you have no previous research experience and I'm not sure if anyone wants to add on. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. Um, young, I can talk about more on Yorkshire but, you know, it's a range of skills, not, not necessarily reset as mandatory, but you do hear sort of gossip done to you that certain golden triangle you were, you know, programs would always want, um, publication almost like a list of criteria. So you got to be really mindful, um, with those information, when you're applying to two different schools, then, then you always keep your options open and you don't go, you know, from, from the feedback from the past, don't choose the same type of school is what I would say. Probably agree with that. Yes, you've got, you've got to do your research, I mean, do, do your homework and, um, have a plan and, um, it will clearly depend on where you're applying and what you've got in mind and what you want. If you apply for Oxford and Cambridge, you know, the bar is going to be set slightly differently than if you apply for East Anglia Wales or whatever, or North West even. So it does vary what, what you want and where you are, what you're applying for. Um, so, you know, do you have to have obligations? No, er, um, but clearly, er, as in all applications and as in life, you know, it's a competition and um, you've got to be realistic about your prospects. So I would say do your homework and, um, if you've got something in mind, er, talk to someone and, and ask for advice and that could include me, you know, Robbie's got my email address so happy to, to help. And, er, I think just be, you know, obviously be ambitious but be realistic. Have a plan A, have a plan B. Yeah, and I think most of the programs will give some guidance but there are some hidden rules and that's where I think doing research will help. But all I can assure you from Yorkshire, what's on the website? We are very clear what points somebody will score if they have publication, what points somebody will score if they have research experience or other things, it's very objective eye. So you could see some, you know, it will vary different region but we would be absolutely objectives. It's in front of you, you can score yourself and you know, where you are in terms of um you know, the points in relation to research or publication or for that matter, any other things really. And it's important to say that um this isn't just about the north. Er, and you know, and I'm talking UK so you know, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the whole of England. There are almost as many, well, there are as many systems as an application, er, criteria as there at school. So I, I would say be clear about what you want and be clear about what you're applying for and all that information will be there. Um, it depends on where you're applying and what you want as to the, the, the various, er, hoops that you'll have to jump through and I suppose just some reassurance from perspective of someone who recently, um, although not every foundation or not, not every U A application guideline is out yet, they should be coming out for the next week, I believe, um, I believe Northwest is out Yorkshire is definitely out. London's has just been released, the others should be coming out soon. So I think, I suppose kind of a quick summary. What one is, it's about skills, mostly check where you're applying and check how you evidence those skills. Yeah, aptitudes really is what we're after because we accept that not everybody can have access to, you know, opportunities that other people may have had. And so it's important to, to sort of address that in, in, uh, in the application as best as you can. Um, as I say, it does vary and, and there are as many application processes as there are schools. So I think you need to do your homework. I think one of the more interesting questions about research and publications we had was that, um, you know, if you've got previous research experience as a medical student, you know, what are the additional benefits that doing as an SFP can bring? I mean, you know, I mean, if you've got, you know, previous opportunities to get involved with research, you know, why should someone already, um, still apply for the SFP? Well, I think that's a good question. And, and is it, is it absolutely necessary? No, it's not. But the mathematics are, um, yeah, there are a number of SFE posts around the country, the UK, er, there are a number of AC F posts. If you're thinking that far ahead, most AC F posts will be filled with people who've done SF but there are a lot more sf first than AC F. So, you know, it's a, it's a small proportion of sfps that actually go on to AC F. So, is it necessary? No. Um, does it help? They must do, er, and it's all about, you know, competition at the interview or whatever stage of the process? So you just need to give yourself the best chance and um either show your aptitude rather than, um you know, whatever your situation may have allowed you to, to do so, you know, show your interest and attitude rather than your, yeah, expertise because, you know, at this stage you can't have huge amounts of experience behind you. No, absolutely. And I think it does help to consolidate what you've done in a medical school and some program will also give other opportunities like, you know, fully funded PT certificate, which you might have not had a chance to do and you certainly won't be able to do that for free if you're in the normal foundation program. But it does mean that you are then working extremely hard, you know, SFP, research project, PT cert as well as the clinical placement. And that conflict is quite important. So if you are somebody that aren't going to be able to handle all those three things simultaneously, that it is a challenge. And when it comes to the A RCP, it's all the clinical competency that are important. So sometime it might leave, you know, um some very ambitious SFP under frustration because um you know, when it comes to um prioritizing research, they may be asked to prioritize the service and the clinical side of things. So yes, you do put yourself into a quite a unique position where you would be pleasing three masters, almost the research, the PT CT team is separate and the clinical team. So you got to be very clear that that's what you want to do. But as Paul said, it does mean that you have shown that you can handle various things under pressure and still deliver and that helps moving to the next stage of your research career. And the great thing about um about this, I mean, it's not great, it's just, you know, there but um er most it depends on the model but most um SFP programs will we um, give some time, it depends where you are but give some time away from the clinical workplace to do the, er, academical or educational leadership work. That means less time in the actual normal foundation workplace. And what you have to do obviously, as a foundation doctor is, is, is do the foundation stuff and get through the foundation work and all, er, do all the competencies, get the competencies evidenced on, on who the portfolio and, and, and, and do that and, and so you have to do that. Everybody has to do that. But what SFE doctors have to do as well in, in less time inevitably is, is doing their SFP stuff so be realistic. Um, and, and plan for that but, er, er, you know, er, whatever SFE is, it's more work and more competency. So, er, be realistic about that. Thank you. And I think the last two questions are sort of similar in the sense that I think people were just um asking if, you know, uncompleted, unfinished research projects. Do they actually count to where it's the short listing for the SFP? I mean, I appreciate that it might be different, you know, between deaneries but I mean, it in general would unfinished unpublished research projects that you're involved in count to where the short listing. Um I would say yes for Yorkshire. Um that, that, that certainly will be counted, but obviously the publication is a separate section. So we got nine different sections where you can score. Um, yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, you know, um, does it count depends what my count? I mean, if it, does it give you points in um short listing, long listing interviews? Uh That depends, it depends on the system that's being used by the school at the time. Does it count in terms of giving you, er, competencies? Yes, of course, it does. And does it count, will it show your interest, expertise, aptitude? Of course, it will. Yes. But as opposed to points, you know, points mean prizes, um, that depends on the, the system you're applying to. So you have to have to do your home work there. Good. So, moving on, um, we've had a few, few questions on the White Space questions as well. Um, so I think a lot of people have been asking us, um, to give a model white white space question model answer. Um, so we'll be running a separate session on that, um, in the interest of time. And so I think, um, we had many questions, um, from people asking about what qualities, um, the sort of interview panel we're looking at in the white space, um, answers, white space question answers. Um, is there like a specific quality that you're looking for? When, when, when, when, when someone's on spring them, I can tell you from the North West. And so I will tell you from the northeast and what I can tell you again is that it will vary from school to school and you need to ask that specific question. Um, can we have an SQ model answer? Not really, it depends on the question, doesn't it? Um, the qualities and, and really how are they scored? And really what you need to do is read the question. That sounds obvious. But, you know, if a question says, give me two examples, er, of leadership skills uh and how you address them, I'm just making it up now. Um Give two examples. Don't give one, don't give three, don't give none. Read the question, split it in two pieces and answer each section. Um, you know, er, leadership skills, look at the job spec and answer the question in the sense of what is it, the jobs right looking for, you know, and, and itemize that, um, it's about reading the question, look, you know, interpreting what they're actually after and giving them that if you can, obviously from your experience, you can't make things up. But, um that's how widespread questions are structured and you have to read them, er, and not ignore them if it says, give two examples, give two examples. Exactly. Um So that's how the structures read them and answer them in, in sections. Um You know, be careful. Yes. So I think the key thing is if there is a question you need to almost think what are the key components around that question? And you answer now also, just remember if you're applying for two schools, one of the school might want the White Space question other school might not. So for example, Yorkshire, we don't want we wouldn't be looking at them. But if you're applying for Yorkshire, just make sure you still do those white space question because that is the same system that will go to the other school. So that's another thing just to bear in mind. So how are based question score and the score, these sections? And it depends on who's marking them, you know, which, which system you're using. But there will be identifiable sections in the question. You know, give me two examples. What were the examples? How, how and how will that equip you to be a foundation doctor? Is, is another good one. There will be sections in the question, identify those and address them, don't ignore them. Um And so it, it does vary and you, you've got to do your homework and I suppose to reassure everyone to, I suppose to let you do your homework and we'll be running two sessions through the series one where we'll talk to the workspace questions and another session where we're going to work with professor Juan, who is the Northern Foundation called, who I think will check my workspace questions so we can look through them and work from there. How are they West widespread Western score, they score these sections usually. So you've identified each of the bits that I've just done and score them separately. Ok. Moving on. So, um we had a few questions about the interview short listing process as well. Um So I think the main big things would be um interview short listing process is that um you know, the E PM score was removed. Um And previously, even for Yorkshire, they did take into account um your E PM score. So, you know, from Northwest um and Yorkshire, how how has the removal of the E PM sort of affected the way um you shot list people for interviews. Yeah. So for Yorkshire, we got 100 point self assessment form which each candidate would have to score themselves and submit alongside that evidence. What we what? Because there's no way we can actually categorize into, you know, long listing short listing or any, any particular box. What we're going to do is purely based on logistics. We're going to look at the top 2 50 self assessment score. So for example, previous years, we looked at 100 and 60 but because the number has increased, we will do that one in 31 in 3.5 ratio. So we will get to the top 2 50 numbers. There is no cut off in terms of how many points out of the 100 you have scored. Um There is no cut off set a line on the side. I'm afraid purely logistic reason the top 2 50 would be taken to the next step. And is it sort of sorry, you go ahead, Robie. Well, you know, um, to the northwest there, there's really no difference, you know, where, where sure listing on the basis of, of, of your, you know, the whole answer really. And, um, er, there was, you know, the E PM didn't have a great influence on that. But again, you know, it depends on the school you're going to. So I wouldn't stress on, on new about that, just answer the, you know, the, the questions as you're asked. And I suppose, I suppose another impact of this to some extent is previously some schools would not consider an application from somebody says that they did get the top 40% on EP in school. And I think that's previously been seven and London who done things like that, I suppose now this opens up the application to everyone. Um, which is probably, yeah, so I guess the next question, which is how do you improve the chance of, you know, getting in the top 2 50 in Yorkshire? Um, you would see the self assessment form, um, you need to choose so that you, you know, the evidence that you provide, you to choose the one that scores you the maximum point and you need to absolutely make sure, you know, you got this good evidence to back that up. Um For example, publication, we are very clear that we need the, you know, the number that if we click it, it takes us straight to the paper. What we don't want really is is a lot of back and forth. We want people to be very well organized. They need to provide the evidence, you know, from that portfolio that can be easily verified. And also in Yorkshire, if there is a tie, let's say between two people at 2 50 number, the one who submitted the application first will be chosen just that you're very well organized and you actually did a timely fashion. So we've thought about various things that might be applicable. We are in those situation, but the key thing is um carefully read them, see where you can score the maximum and that you got a strong evidence that you can submit with it. Yeah, I mean to add, there won't be much difference for us. It depends entirely on where you are and where you're applying to, you know, if you apply to a school where there's um roughly the same number of Africans as, as spaces, there won't be a problem. If you apply to a school where there are five times as many Africans as places, then there will be a problem. So, you know, it depends on the situation and um er clearly the best thing is, you know, show interest, show aptitude, show expertise. Er, however, you do that, whether it's in the white face answers or, or, or whatever. But, er, the E PM I don't think will make a great deal of a difference if I'm honest. Um, and it, you know, what can I do now to improve my chances, show interest, aptitude expertise and, and you can do that, you know, despite in, in your context you can do that whether you're in, um, er, you know, AAA golden triangle place or whether you're in something that's distant from that. So, er, just be convincing in, in what you say, right? So, I think um this is the second last slide we have. So um loads of questions about interview. Um So we'll be running a few sessions on how to um sort of approach ESFP interviews if anyone's interested and that will be later on sometime in se um late September to October. So do look out for that. Um I think we had a few questions because with ESFP, you have sort of different types of ssfps, you've got med and you've got um the leadership. So I think um the question we had was um how are they met at and leadership interviews um different from the research interviews there may be or they may not be depending on where you are. Um Like I say, if you go to a place that I can email me, I can, I can show you examples it if you, if you want to, um, apply to somewhere where, um, they're all equal, you apply and, you know, they can, they can judge your merits and distribute you accordingly. There are some places where the process is different according to which stream you choose. So, um, um, I can't answer that because it's specific to the school. Yeah, absolutely. So when we used to do interviews, we had the same for me or research, we don't do any more interviews um in number. Um but yeah, it was very similar stations really that they were judged by 22 member of the panel when we used to do that and sort of um you know, just general tips on interviews, you know, what makes a, an applicant stand out um as opposed to another, um any general advice on how to approach the SFP interviews. I mean, again, we'll be running a few sessions but I mean, from the sort of directors and I say we're not looking for, you know, great achievements. We're not looking for, um you know, huge amounts of research, whatever we're looking for an attitude, we're looking for an aptitude, we're looking for an interest and, and we're looking for um someone who's, who's whatever opportunities is about. We're looking for someone who's, who's been able to demonstrate a passion for it. Um Now, you know, you can, you can break that down into an interview score on what you're looking for, ask the questions, score, this score that score that it'll be different for every place and I would suggest, you know, er, explore the place, um, that you have and have a plan and like I said, if you, if you want my advice, email me. Yep. Yeah, I agree, Paul, it's the passion that, that really scores the most. You just have to get your nerves away. Be, be genuine, be natural confidence, you know, practice, but don't over practice. You know, the last thing you want to do is, you know, just war with some answer. It needs to come. Like, you know, you're thoughtful when you're talking, uh, rather than, you know, like parrot just, just speaking out so, really important. Um, and those were the people that, you know, really, I would have scored higher in the days when we did the two years, but it's a passion that, that most gets the most score and we still do interviews and we will this year. But what we've got to say for all of this, the whole thing is that what we're saying now is true for this year and for the 2024 intake, whether it's true for the 2025 intake, I just don't know. And I could say that genuinely because it's not been decided, uh, it may, it may stay the same, er, but things change so, er, be alert to that. I, I don't know what you, what year you're in, if you're in the fourth year. That's relevant. How if you're in the 3rd, 2nd, 1st year, er, you need to keep your eye on the ball. And I think that's a nice insight from, um, two national directors and the national director. It was just kind of summarize that point, I suppose. Bring in kind of the idea is I probably right in saying because it really every found for every, every unit of application look the same and to some extent, I'm looking for passion for research, looking for ability, commitment, et cetera, et cetera, just assessed in different ways and at different points where an interview is part of that assessment. And I suppose almost just a question for you to my own interest to an extent. Why did you decide not to interview? Yeah. So as I said, you know, it's the second year that we're not, we used to interview um the whole process we found really did not add a huge value when, when we started looking through the self assessment form, what we wanted to really bring is is those aptitudes that we could assess through written form. Now, you could argue that all the other founders and doctors don't interview, why do the SFP needs to interview? It's only a four months additional research experience. Um So one of the thoughts were it wasn't needed. We spoke to the academics, we did a stakeholder engagement. Um and that's when we concluded it was quite resource intense as well actually. And what we were struggling were the academics were not coming to the interview. We were sort of dependent on leadership fellow. We were depend on various various colleagues. So we wanted to have a system that wasn't too onerous on medical students just coming out and are treated very differently than the majority of the, you know, peers. And we thought that we could achieve this with other ways. And that's when we started doing this self assessment form, which is now after focus group on stakeholder engagement, we're changed that now. So that self assessment form is different than what it was last year. So it's an e creative process, you know, by talking to various colleagues. And what we also wanted was um to bring different types of um you know, students from different walks of life who are actually going to take the research, not necessarily one who are the best prepared to take, you know, give an answer or best prepared in certain aspect of because obviously, you're only going to ask some questions if nobody's done research and you ask a question about research, then, then they would feel like, oh, well, I've not done well and they will be score different and you can't actually um do a justice to that person in front of you who might be actually a really good academic. So you'll see in the assessment form, we got nine different categories then to be able to interview, to do the justice to person in front of you would always be a challenge. So we thought in the interview does bring a lot of biases. Um, what subject to you as well as the questions that we've been asked and hence we really move forward. Hope that is convincing argument. But that was the thoughts that we had in our mind. It's busy. Um, I mean, what, what we want are people who are, you know, showing me the aptitude to, to, to do this and that doesn't depend on, on, um, er, necessarily on having done an in interco degree or even a phd or having got a paper. I mean, you know, um, it's, uh, it's a tricky one because it's difficult to know how to, how to be objective and that's a whole science in itself. But, er, the example of this is the widening participation, um, uh, I can see some of nothing there that, that, that, you know, um, you know, there, there's a group of people who will not have had access to the advice, uh, they will not have had um, the, the availability, you know, they just can't have the head space the time, er, you know, the sort of room in their life to do this. But, yeah, there might be and I know people who are brilliant academics and, and the most, er, brilliant academic I've ever met, er, and, and, er, you know, he's still around and, and, and, um, you know, she was, I'll say it's a, she, and I'll say it's from an ethnic majority background and I'll say it's from a widen party background and, and she was approached by a medical school as a year three and said, um, you must intercalate, you must do an MRE, you know, er, er, here we are and her mother said, well, who's going to pay for that and, um, you know, we need you working frankly and, and there is, you know, it's a difficult route around that and that is a problem. And what for all people say there's no evidence and it's not happening, it is happening, it must be happening, it's happening everywhere. The more you look, the more you see it. So, you know, what we've got to do is look beyond, uh, you know, the opportunities that people are having and the sort of anything that costs money we can, you know, it's difficult to look at like phd S and some, even some publications, you know, the charge, you know, so we've got to look at aptitude, ability, passion and that's more and more what we're trying to do and we've got to look beyond did I tick that box. So I, I've rambled on of it there but you, I think you can see the points I'm making, you know. Absolutely. The last year we had two self assessment forms so the students could rank um, their form as a social skill or an academic credential. And 50% of the sfps that were appointed subsequently, I mean, it wasn't planned or thought about it, but 50% actually got through the social skills, um you know, points and 50% through academic credentials. So what I mean by social skills as well, like, you know, medical students were doing business, set up a business um or they were doing volunteer in the community, you know, six months volunteer or, you know, got an Olympic medal. None of them were actually, you know, um rewarded in, in the previous way where we ran. Um So the experiment still continues. Now we got one form that, that actually, um you know, will account those broader skill sets and in a way, it will also help the widening participation as Paul Paul mentioned. So that, that, that, that was the idea. So I think, I think we've a fair amount about the qualities that might be, you might be other places, I suppose. Now a slight more specific thing towards interviews is the clinical sections of the interviews. So what I, I suppose almost from an interviewer perspective, what would you be looking for from the C if it, I'd be looking for the same as I'd be looking from everybody else frankly, you know, there'd be a clinical scenario and you know, uh have you on the ABC S, have you, you know, sorted out the diagnosis can you sort the wood from the trees? Can you, can you come up with a plan and that's no different from, uh, I mean, not everybody does a clinical scenario and not everybody does interviews if you've heard. But, but that's fairly, you know, fairly obvious ABC plan diagnosis and that's how, you know, uh, being grounded in your clinical training. And I, I suppose just to kind of pick up on some of those is you kind of spoke about ABC S, the kind of, and I'm gonna use simple in, you know, the basic stuff that you would expect any GV doctor or F one F two to do. Is that a fair kind of assessment you're not looking for? Absolutely. You need that, you need that you need that whatever else you need then. Yeah. So it's, I, I suppose always the question is is that almost like a clinical screen to check when we get the left one? Are you safe? You know what I want you on my ward, you might be on me. So I think, I think where you might be on mute, potentially. Sorry. Am I? Am I still music? Oh, yes. Oh, I think you might have really, we love technology. Um All right. Can everyone hear me now? Good. OK. So this last slide we have is more about um the SFP specifics and just um some um last minute um sort of questions. So if you're applying for a research sp will we still, we use to consider someone who um for, for sort of like the other SFP jobs like in me at and leadership? Or if you're applying for le for research, you can just apply for research and not the other types depends on your unit of application. And again, you know, if you want, if you want to know uh go to the school where you're applying to and you know, this will depend on, yeah. Is it important where I go? Is it important? What I do? Is it important, research, education, leadership, you make, make your decision, make your priorities and, and do your homework on, on, on that particular place. Um Because you're gonna have only two at the moment to accept others from so that, you know, that depends on what you want. And also does anyone have um because I mean, I, I've just started one so I haven't reached my academic block yet and, and Robbie as well, but um is have, and does anyone have any examples of what of what an SFP trainees have sort of achieved during their academic log? But that, that depends as well because what I always say is there are as many models of academic training as there are of schools and OK, you've done the normal thing, normal usual um typical of you apply for F one, you join a one and the F two contains the uh academic component not all models are like that in, in some places, I think in Scotland you don't get any time at all designated. You can, you know, it's completely flexible in, in most, in, well, in our school and in all the places you apply and it, it may not be four months f two, it may be half a day a day a week, varying for the whole two years. So you need to be clear on the model. Uh So it, it doesn't, it doesn't always apply what you just said. Yeah. Also, you know, some schools have fixed sort of academic placement. Whereas, you know, in Yorkshire, the supervisor have to do a pitch. So we have a day when we supervisor will come and pitch their project and ideas and almost try and say, please come and work with us, you know, what are the strength of the team and then the um the trainee will be going and meeting them and then they have to submit a form. So the way it works is you have to submit a proposal with your supervisor signature with what are the key aims from that project in Yorkshire? They all four months, I'm afraid, you know, probably it will be lovely to have, you know, a bit more flexible models, but it's all four months um placement, whether it's me or a research one. Um and the students and sometimes, you know, the students or sorry, the trainees might actually go and, you know, bring an academy of their own, like, even that's not been listed, even if they're not pitched because they've got some specific interest and we support that, you know, we would support, even if the supervisor isn't a full university supervisor, we just want to make sure that what they are proposing is actually going to achieve what, what they are saying. So it's pretty, you know, open door, um, very, you know, creative within, within our school. So, yeah, you need to find whether that is allowed or not when you're applying to a certain school. Yeah. And that's great. I mean, um, what some described is, you know, the ideal, I think. But so what, what you've got is a menu and, you know, on the menu will be slots for, you know, with clinical and, and, and, er, tracks and, but for the sap bit with, er, academic supervisors, academic projects, academic slots. So that's a menu. There may be more items on the menu than there are trainees. So there may be choice and, you know, not every, er, place on the menu will be filled every time. So, um, er, it does vary and I think you've got to, er, you know, use your school, choose your slot, be clear about what you want, er, if that's possible and I know, you know, it's difficult to choose a career at this stage but, you know, what are you, what are you passionate about, er, Steve Jobs said, find what you love and do that. You know, he invented the house home and we all know what, you know, success that had. So, you know, and she, you need to be clear about what you're after, uh, and, um, try and choose that item on the menu that's for you and if it's not on the menu, yeah, there are possibilities. You, you can get it on the menu. Um, but you have to, you know, impress the program that, that that's what's needed. So, um, um it's, it's a, it's a choice on the menu and what's on the menu depends on local circumstances and what's available. So it just add to that point to some level and everybody's different and how projects allocated. I know in Northern you're given a lot of freedom to choose what you do and how you do it. I was my own supervisory team and I know that's the norm for people in, whereas for example, London, you are given the differences and what you applying to. Um, uh um, I suppose I pull to some level around ver cetera and I, I think like for last year, haven't been released as of yet. And, um, but I suppose kind of in my head anyway, they've always been around the kind of 3 to 1 level that's kind of a national average is that I think it is, but it depends entirely what, where you are, what, what you, what you're after, um, I'd have to ask you is a competition writer really important to you. Uh, as we said, at the beginning, you've got a vision hopefully. And if you haven't, you know, we can advise you but, you know, give you advice. Um, you've got a vision and you've got a plan A, that's your vision had a plan B and the competition ratios may have a, a big place in, in plan A, er, probably a lesser place in me. So, um, it depends entirely where you are, what you want to do, what you want to go for. And you can imagine if you want to go for Oxford and Cambridge Imperial College, the competition ratios are going to be quite high, er, if you want to come to the north west, I'm not going to speak to the northeast but, you know, east of England, um, er, other in Wales Scotland. I don't know, it doesn't matter. But, you know, there are places with lesser competition ratio so you have to decide on what you want and how likely it is and, and do your homework. Er, and um, yes, um, competition ratios will vary, um, but they'll vary greatly upon where you are. So, you know, most of, actually, I've said that there are as many systems as there are schools and most of that variation is around competition issues. You know, if you have a school where you can accommodate every application SFP without any problem. Then why bother with an interview or short? Or if you've got an, you know, a system where you're in the golden triangle and you've got 20 times as many people wanted to get in as need, er, you know, places then, oh, you're gonna need long listed short listing interviews. So, um, the answer to the question is what the competition is, it depends entirely on what you're applying for. Ok. So I suppose um if anyone wants to ask any last minute questions, I think it's probably best to chat as soon as possible. But I suppose I think we're gonna have an attempt to summarize what we've just run through and please correct me if I'm wrong. So I think, I suppose know what you're applying to. Almost every foundation school will score the same themes of qualities and skills, but in different ways, some place high rates on things like publications, ations, et cetera, for example, London. Um some have completely different, completely different things, some of them not traditionally linked to academia, for example. Uh and I think as nicely uh stated by call, we don't necessarily pay attention to the competition ratio, but pay attention to what you're applying to and why you're applying to it because that's what's going to build your application. Fine. Ok, I think, I think that's probably most of the questions we had for you. So um yeah, and, and I Oh yeah, I just, just picking up something that's SFP posts or if you're not selected initially, Baker, would you be able to briefly talk about how kind of the SFP allocation waves happen? Yeah. On the onfi a fe host do occasionally happen. Um you know, after three rounds of offers and so on and if that happens, then that post goes into the pot and it's a, it's a normal application and somebody will be allocated it from the the general um foundation application system. Um What was the other bit of the question? So around how the office system works and the waves of, well, my understanding is that this year the same as ever. So you can, you do your application and you get your scores and whatever and that depends on the school, you are able to hold two offers from two schools and at some point, you're going to have to decide which one you go for. Um But you know, it's only two. but and the other caveat is next year, it may be different. So none of this applies. So if you're, if you're 1/4 year may be different, yeah, I think you only have 48 hours to accept an offer and once you accept an offer, the other will automatically not exist. So you've got to really do that. I mean, on one occasion, somebody due to it, technical issues could not accept for whatever reason. And individual cases, we can come back. But you got to really, you know, do it in timely fashion and don't do what I do, which is to leave it till five to midnight or whatever it is. You know, because that, you know, if you look on the graph that, you know, the application go like that and then they go right five to midnight and that's when the system is going to crash. And, you know, you're going to have to explain why you couldn't get in and, and I believe that's what I did submitting and accepting office for s so, um I suppose the other thing that's probably worth talking about is when you are, you might not necessarily be given an SFP offer on of um of all the offices coming out and you might be put on a reserve list. This um now what happen? There are three rounds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and what, what happens to people who don't get an offer initially will get two off say and then reject one of them, that place is then given to the next person on the list, depending on what, what that person does is then offered to the next person on the list. So the third way and then if that's not filled nationally, that's right, they're going to the pot as if the whole of the SFP thing hasn't happened. And I suppose it's worth mentioning to people on the call that people do get offered people on 2nd and 3rd round of offers. And I've got fa OK, I think we're probably wrapping up now and to briefly mention we are looking to run um some interview, one, some interview sessions, interview, then also some practice interviews with parent to run through the um progress and just give you an experience of what it's like. And I'm just adding the Google form just for expression of interest. Just so we know roughly how many places we need to make. And if you want, if you would be interested in having some interview practice, please fill out the form and also please fill out the form because that's what makes us know what to help you with. Um And it really helps guide future sessions. Otherwise, uh if you've got any last minute questions, please have them in the chat otherwise, thank you very much for coming. Thank you very much to professor Professor Baker dot Stagger for coming and much appreciate it and it's been very useful for me. And um otherwise I hope everyone has a lovely evening. Thanks. And I, I did mean that if anybody wants to email me, my email address is public information. Do do that and I'm uh I'm happy to happy to do that likewise. Yeah. Thank you. Great job organizing this. Thank you. Bye bye.