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SFP teaching session 5: Unlocking WSQs with Professor Gill Vance



This workshop is designed to help medical professionals understand the purpose and the importance of White Space questions in medical applications and interviews. There will be discussion about what makes a good White Space question and what to do and not to do when writing them. It will also feature interactive sections, where attendees can share their own White Space questions to receive advice on how to improve them. The goal is to help the attendees make their White Space questions stand out to the assessors and become more successful medical candidates.
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In this session we will go through model answers to the white space questions, using the answers provided by past applicants as an example. Our guest speaker for this session is Professor Gill Vance, the SFP lead at the Northern Foundation School and Consultant Paediatrician at Great North Children's Hospital. We look forward to seeing you there!

Learning objectives

Learning Objectives: 1. Understand what white space questions are and why they are important when applying for a position in medical training 2. Identify the key criteria for addressing white space questions 3. Demonstrate a knowledge of the different sections of a white space question and how to approach each section 4. Practice applying the key criteria to address a white space question 5. Critically assess white space questions and provide constructive feedback in small groups
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Computer generated transcript

The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

Thank you everyone for coming and also thank you to fans for joining. I'm Robby, one of the SFP ones in Northern. Um uh And today me and, and then also the other people from the SFP on that team are gonna talk a little bit about White Space questions. We want this to be as interactive as possible and there'll be sections for you to be interactive throughout and um and we'll ask you to add some of your thoughts about some of the questions and we're actually gonna get you to shred one of my um SFP, one of my White Space questions that was submitted last year. Um So we can talk through things and so please be interactive, please ask questions, please let us know if you need anything. And uh I think if, if Jill is able to unmute and potentially turn on her camera, so she might be able to introduce herself. That's OK. And I'll just start sharing my screen if that's ok. Oh, that's not good. Why can't we do that? Um Right, Jill, do you, is it possible do you need to like allow access? Is that like a little box that comes up when you try to say allow access to camera and microphone. OK. Fine. Um I think what I'll do if that's OK, just for the interest of time is I'll start on the initial slides and then we can circle back and talk through things if it's OK. So I'll share my screen and hope it works time. OK. Fine. So can we see things? Can we see and hear things? Yeah, we can um Good. So the plan of today is to give an overview of the White Space questions and what we doing and some kind of dos and don'ts about what to do and what not to do on your whitespace questions. And we're then going to try and look at some of the White Space questions from this year. Um And what makes a good White space question and what makes a bad White space question uh answer? Um And then work through an example or two of mine and then any examples of yours that you put up and we can have a talk through if that's if you're, if you're happy and open to putting them onto the chat. So just to kind of be clear, this session is about, it's a workshop. We're gonna try and talk through things, but the more interactivity we have the better for all of us. Um And it's designed to give you general skills, but this isn't about specific units of application or specific deaneries and also emphatically, this is not a cheat sheet of how to score well, in a, you know, in the Northern Deaner or in other places, this is about generally what we think makes a good workspace question. Um uh We're also not going to write your white space questions for you. We are just trying to go, we're going to try and give you some advice on what you need to aim for and what they want to look for when you're doing them. So I think, I think the first things to talk about is what a white space question actually is and what its purpose is. So really, it's all about you. So it's, they're short statements, 200 words each um that are very specific and are very targeted towards a specific area and they are about your ski, they are about your skills and your achievements and what you've done. Um And what will make you a good trainee and it's about getting your qualities across um in 200 words or less that make you seem like an attractive training to the region. And they're not necessarily um sort of, you know, they are very focused towards a specific thing that the question is asking and you will be scored on a mark scheme against that spec specific thing. We'll talk a bit about how that works in a second. Um But when you are writing those questions, make sure that you one are selling you and not someone else. And, and two, if you are saying if you're talking about something like I was involved in a project, make sure you say what you did and what you got from it and why that makes you a better trainee than what the team got from it. If that makes sense because these are all about you and keep it personal to you and these are the real places to show off in your application. And it's worth saying that all su a use White space questions differently. Some places don't use them at all. Um But um make sure you check which white space questions you are required to fill out and how they mark those white space questions as well. And most of that information is available on each of the Suas website. OK. Um So just to start off um has, have we managed, have we managed to get Jill in the room yet? Just gonna pull it back. Yes, we have. Excellent. Hello Joe. Um So just to start off with what makes a good white space question? So it's a bit plain, it's a bit simple and it's a bit obvious, but make sure you answer the question. Um If the question's about teamwork, make sure we talk about teamwork and not leadership. If the question is about leadership, make sure we talk about how you led. And if a question asked for multiple things, make sure you provide multiple things. And if a question asked for one thing, make sure, try one thing. I know it's a bit, I know it's a bit, you know, teaching you to suck eggs. But it is important and people do miss out on things like that and it's important that you put that in. It's also important you take the time to do the background reading. So um a lot of these questions have very specific points, say, for example, there's a point about simulation in some of the questions you are expected to know what simulation is or simulation and teaching is and know the background around that. So have a bit of a read. Um And there's quite a lot of literature on everything out there basically. So make sure you know what you're talking about when you're writing about it and do some background reading, take time to look through your answer, make sure you're actually answering the question. For example, teamwork versus leadership is the question asking you teamwork or is it leadership and make sure you give examples. And I I think the point here is that everyone can write something that makes them sound good or everyone can say I am a natural born leader or something ridiculous like that. Not very many people can say how they are a natural born leader and why they're able to do that. And, and the way you do that is by providing it with experiences um so kind of as we were talking about last week, um backing your statements up with experiences that are authentic, they are not overexaggerated and they state what you learned from. It is the most important thing because it gives the marker some level of evidence to understand that you actually know what you're on about and you will make a good trainee because at the end of the day, the people who are marking these will be probably your clinical bosses and they need to make sure they're letting someone who is competent and passionate. And it's worth saying that doesn't necessarily mean overly like ludicrous experienced in research with 18 million publications. It's just about do like do you will you be a competent safe clinician but also good academic trainee? Um Finally, these things take time and don't do what I did where I submitted my white space questions and the rest of the oral form about a day before the deadline. Um and then accepted my right and then accepted my SFP offer within an hour of the deadline closing because it's horrific. Um And it is the most stressful thing you will ever do and make sure you take time to prepare your whitespace questions, make sure other people read them and we'll talk a little about how that works shortly. Um Does prop have anything to add to those points? I'm not sure we can hear you at the moment. Fine, perfect. So I think, yeah, fluency um is also important and I think these are all about telling little stories. So pay to them as a chronological story is often helpful. It's something that I definitely try to do when I wrote mine. OK. So these are the, these are the questions of this year and there are, there used to be 10 or 11 questions. Now there are five or six depending how you look at them And they are fairly similar to last year's questions with fairly similar themes, but with some subtle and important differences. Um and the purpose of these is to get out again, very specific things. So say, for example, career goals, that is actually quite an important question around. If you are an SFP and you are looking to go into clinical academia in the long run or you are looking to do something specific, say, for example, you know, become an academic surgeon or whatever, how is your SFP going to help you do that? Um And I think this is a point of showing that you have a plan and having a plan is important, but also you understand how you're going to make that plan happen and you understand what the SFP is going to give you. I think a point here that's important to know is just by virtue of having an SFP does not mean by any stretch, you will get to the end of your plan. It just enables you to have a bit more time so you can focus on that. So I think, I think that's an important thing. We're going to talk a bit more about the education and teaching section shortly, so we can talk through that. Um And then leadership and note leadership is different to teamwork and, and it's worth talking about where you have been a leader and how you've managed that. And the thing I'd also note for the research section, I just get a pointer up is achievements, plural. And last year there was a question which we talk about about a singular research achievement. This year, it's achievements pleural. So almost listing your experiences as kind of an approach to draft. This question is quite a good one to probably start off with again, teamwork, very important but very distinctive leadership. Make sure you use something on here that's ideally separated from this example. And then programming interest about what you're applying for and why you're applying for it. So we're going to talk a bit about the education and teaching section and what what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk a little bit about it. I'm going to leave this here for about 3 to 5 minutes and then let us have a if you can put in the chat about your thoughts around this question and what you would add to this. If people have prepared questions, we can talk about that and then we'll talk about what we think makes a good answer to this question and how to approach this question when you're answering it. So, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna copy, paste this into the chat so I can actually see the chat. Um, and then I will leave it for a couple of minutes and then we'll come back to it as well. Is that all? OK. So I'll just copy that in. OK? And we'll give you a few minutes, just everyone on the chat, just throw some things into the chat and we can talk about them, um, briefly if that's ok. Just while we're looking, I'll have a look through the chart to make sure we've answered all the questions. I'm back in the room. Oh, excellent. Do you have anything to answer what I was saying? Um So, um, so I think everything you said sounds, sounds totally fine. I've missed a little bit about it. So, in terms of the last little bit as I was logging off to different laptops. So, so what was your, what was your kind of key take home message, read the question, the question, read the question, I think. Um And you know, it's something, it's something you see, um, at all levels. Actually, I think where people answer what they think the question means. Um, but not what the question says. Um And don't mold the question to you necessarily make sure your experiences make your experiences for the question some. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, something I was going to ask the audience is, um um what fears they had about White Space questions? Obviously, we've got some ideas as to how to improve it. But perhaps of our advice can be geared to kind of particular anxieties and fears about White space questions. Um Equally, some folk may have already tried writing the White Space questions for, for their application. How do they find it? What's been problematic? What's been troublesome because we can draw on that information to, you know, give further advice on this. There's a couple of um questions already. Robbie I from Sharon does running mock sky for medical students code to si I would say it, it, the, the definition of simulation here is quite a broad one I would say and I think it depends on what your definition is because simulation and education can mean quite a lot of things. And I think it's something we'll talk about, but depending on how you shape that and how you phrase that. Um I think potentially um you know, say, for example, if you have a SIM station within your Roski, that is Joe Blogs has come with ad K A do some medical things to sort of about EK A that is a simulation um which could be part of an sky. So I think, I think if you can, if you have that experience within there, then I think. Absolutely. Um So I think your intro as to simulation comes in many guises is an important one. So um as an intro to a question like that, it's helpful to define what you mean by simulation and set the context around the example you're going to give as to why it was a simulated scenario. Stop. OK. I think I'll, what I'll do is there's a lot of questions in there. I think John is slowly working his way, working his way through them. We can come back to them as well, but I'll share the screen again, we can talk through what we think about what me and Jill think about. Make a good question there. Again, this is our, this is what we think in our head anyway. So again, going back to those top tips um answering the question, achievements, plural. Um And within the first part of that question, within and outside of medicine. Um Now again, depending on how it's marked, there will probably be marks for doing teaching things outside of meds, outside of medicine. I think to some extent, it's probably fair enough. If you did teaching before medical school, you could probably use that um to any experience, you can think that's useful is probably usable there. Um And it's important to remember within and outside taking time to research is really important here because they have point of the value of simulation. What is simulation? What does that mean? And, and I think as part of your question is kind of said that simulation means a lot of things to different people. You know, that it's not necessarily the very rigid um 18 minute station where you have six people in the room, er, trying to do something acute, it can be different. And, and I think using the literature basis around simulation education, literally going to PUBMED and Google simulation in ED and you will find something useful, have a read, think about it and, and put something useful in that. It will also give you an idea of how to phrase your language because you know, these are all peer-reviewed texts with nice text. Hopefully. So it'll give you an idea of OK, that's how I want this to sound. Um again, take time to review and make sure you're talking about, make sure that whatever you're talking about is simulation or you can craft it to be simulation in the same way that you know, on sky overtly isn't necessarily simulation. You have to explain to the reader why you did something in simulation and why that was valuable. And the other thing is this question talks about your experience, it can be your experience as a teacher, but then also as a learner and I'm pretty sure almost all courses talk have an element of simulation in somewhere. So it's worth building on that. Again, giving examples is important, your experience, your ex um your teaching experience, your achievements, use that and, and again to finalize for all of them, please take time to run through things. Um I think it's probably not unreasonable for you to give anyone who's reviewing these a week to look at them, which means you probably need to think about getting these drafted, hopefully within the next week because that will then give you time to get them reviewed. Um Anything to add to that? A couple of little bits. The first thing is, I think it's quite a hard white space question because there are two very different bits to this question, um which don't really relate to each other. So you've got to number one, check the number of words that you have available to your white space question and app portion, your answer equally. So you've got appropriate balance to the first part. And the second part, the practical point I have is you've got to make your wife's best question stand out from everyone else's. So you got to think about how you make yours special. And certainly when I hear the word achievement, um have a think about how you could interpret the word achievement. So what examples, what evidence could you give around successful teaching? Whether that be evaluation you've gathered or the design of the teaching exercise that you've made that is based on pedagogic principles. Say, so you're demonstrating that you have a level of experience which is distinctive and effective Yeah. And that's really nice advice. I think just picking up on the point on word count. Um, I suppose the general urge to me on this question would be to split it 100 words, 100 words because it's a 200 word question. What do you think about that? I, I think that I would agree totally because, um, you do not want to, um, er, have a very detailed answer for one part, but only 20 words left for the second part. I think it needs to be appropriately balanced and um and, and make sure that you capture the scores, the marks across the whole piece and not have a perfect answer which only gets you half of the marks. Cool. Amazing. So the next point I'm going to add before we get on to shedding, one of my examples is um I think it's just a Hamma home that it's really important. You get feedback on your whitespace questions and my white space questions, particularly the ones about me personally changed an a ludicrous amount actually, after getting input from firstly my family, but then also other people. Um and the way that you think you present yourself when you're writing these things is not always necessarily how it does actually come across. And actually, I think the best litmus test is giving these whitespace questions to someone who basically doesn't know you. Um So if you can find just a nice clinician who or a nice academic who knows you a bit enough to agree to let, to read your 1000 words of your whitespace questions, but not someone who's worked with you for like half a decade. And that's actually a really good place to be. Um, because they can give you a much more accurate insight because they can't make the assumptions about yourself that you or someone who knows you really well does automatically. So my advice would be make sure you, you get these red one and got mine read by about five or 10 people do that. It's helpful. Um And two make sure you get someone who doesn't know you very well to read them because that is helpful. Um There's always a point, there's always a danger of getting conflicting advice when you get multiple people to read them. And the way I manage that is going back to what I think works. So what I think is best for that section. I kind of go with that advice. It's also your white face question. So you can disagree with advice, but you will have things that you won't have thought of that other people will see. So it is really worth taking the time to get these done early and get them read by people um, all around you if you can. Ok. So the next thing we're going to do is can I, shall I just jump in as well? Just for another I think that's really good advice. I've put something in the chat about taking time to make sure grammar, spelling syntax are, are perfect. So can someone completely unrelated can make sure that your, your application um is, is perfectly proofread? I was just going to um suggest, I mean, a start point is often to throw a lot of different examples that you might wish to use on a piece of paper and then chat through with somebody. Which of those examples sound like the best examples. You've only got a small number of words. The example I've just given is that you've only got half of the word count for quite a large question. So you might want to spend a wee bit of time thinking about what might be the best examples and chatting that through with someone even before you put pen to paper. Yeah. And I, yeah, and I think thinking about it appropriately is good. Um Or thinking about it strategically in some ways is good. Not necessarily putting everything on from the from the get go is often quite a good tip. OK? So the next thing we're going to do is this isn't a question that's in this year's white space questions. But this is one that is similar to some of the questions that is in this year's whitespace questions and shows some of the same points. And the question that was asked last year was um what is your single best clinical research achievement and why. And I have added something that I did between my 3rd and 4th year. Um And I was very lucky to get a project with some of the cystic fibrosis team up in Newcastle. Um uh And this is said, project, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna give everyone about five minutes to read it. I'll also copy and paste it into the chat. So if it's easy to read in that way and then we can talk about it. Um I think in the meantime, if John is able to potentially answer questions um while we're talking, that would be ideal. Um But I think we're doing OK. Um So I'll give everyone about five minutes and then I think what we'll do is me and pro pro if you put your comments of what you think about this question in the chat, it is not perfect. There are ways to improve this, put what you think and, and then we can all talk about it and um rip me to threads basically, which is all OK? And so fine, we'll we'll have another chat in a few minutes time. So just have a read and we can go from there. Were there any questions Juan that you wanted to pass to Robbie or I whilst attendees are looking at the worked example. Were there any questions that you were struggling to answer? I think initially there was one about uh it's not related to white space questions but consultants on the academic pathway that has a research interest. The appen was asking um what is the job scope of the consultant? Great, great question. It's and to some degree, there's no one single answer because consultants with research interests can have quite, quite a varied job package, I guess. Number one is the consultant employed predominantly by the NHS with some time bought out for research sessions or as a consultant, predominantly an academic consultant and funded by the university employed by the university with some clinical sessions. Because then perhaps the job um goals and shape of the of the working week are very different. Um Then if we perhaps say perhaps a slightly more, it's going to be a more common scenario of having a clinical NHS consultant with some research sessions. Um Again, it depends on the type of research activity. So there'll be a group of consultants who do a lot of research delivery as part of portfolio or trial studies. They may have one or two sessions to support trial delivery. There's another group of consultants um perhaps who are delivering empirical research where they are the principal investigator, designing and um delivering research from the bottom up. So it then there's consultants for the clinical work um links to their academic work. But I follow that very small group of consultants for who my clinical work is very different to my academic research work. So there's, there's another group. So really it's, it's there's a wide range of differing um um types of academic consultant. And I suppose step one is to think in terms of career intentions and career direction is. What type of doctor do I want to be an academic doctor with some clinical or do I want to be a clinical doctor with some academic? And maybe that's the start point? Great. I think one of the question is simulation, is it purely about clinical scenarios? Because someone asks, he run basically a research mentorship. Can he put that as a simulation or assimilation is mainly about clinical scenarios? Again, that's a, that's a good question. Um I suppose on the face of it, I would not regard mentorship as being an example of simulation. However, if someone is running a mentorship program that feels like a leadership activity that you want to weave into one of your answers because that's about coordinating, managing, supporting, developing others. Um you know, really quite a responsible role which you of course want to make sure that the assessors have an eye on. But simulation, I guess the question again, we can bring it up before, but it's very much linked to teaching delivery. Um And why that has value as part of medical education um in what circumstances, high risk infrequent scenarios where really we want to make sure that future doctors have had um experience in a safe space. So I think mentorship probably falls a bit beyond that. Um But nonetheless, a good question. Thanks. That's all for me. I think also just to add on that your experience as a mentor is a useful point for the section. One of that question ie teaching and running a successful mentoring scheme with multiple people I think is an achievement. So that's something to potentially add in perception above. Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. That's very true. Um And, and, you know, again, a, a strong answer is perhaps, um you know, someone perhaps who has led a teaching exercise from inception. So, and you know, had an idea, you know, designed and delivered and evaluated that exercise, the number of mentees, um effects of that mentorship, what they've gone on to do. Those are all really nice examples of achievement in a teaching capacity. OK. Um So I think I got a few minutes on that then. Um so if people want to have their comments to chat about this question and we can have a chat about this answer. Um And about how we want to approach it, I can't see the chat. So June, if you'd be OK to read any comments, if there are any there and we can talk about it. I think people are being a bit shy today. That is, that is OK. That is, I think, I think, I think to start off with um to be a bit pig headed I think it's worth commenting that I was very lucky with this experience and this is probably actually quite a good answer. Um from a level of I was lucky and it's quite nice, but there are flaws with it. And I suppose there's a, we can probably approach this from a content and then writing quality aspect, I guess. Um Initially, I think, I think the first thing to talk about is there's probably some aspects where there's probably too many words. So say, for example, we work with an international collaboration between 13 countries. Like that's fine. But every word counts here. Do I need both international collaboration and between 13 countries don't know, I also start one sentence, two sentence, three sentences with I um boring. So, so you know that to me, I think looking back on this be, I haven't looked this in a year, there's probably a point of I probably need to reflect on my language here because actually, should I start every single sentence I write with the, with the, with the letter I or can I think of something slightly better? Um And I think the answer is the latter. I think, I think that's a trap that I, I often fall into. Always starting everything when I write about myself is starting with I um whereas I could start with something a bit more. Um What are your thoughts about this prop fan? Um So I know um so I think again, there, there's a number of practical points perhaps just the first part on the word. I, I mean, this is an opportunity for you to sell yourself. So you have to be honest, you have to be open, you have to be uh you know, you have to um er give honest answers, but it is an opportunity to sell yourself. So I'm probably less bothered by the word. I, because really you want to say I am the best person that you want to appoint to this job for the following reasons. So, so you can't be shy of selling yourself would be, would be the first thing to say. I would agree with the lodge uh with, with, with, with a very um discreet number of words, every word matters. And I would also agree that international collaboration doesn't, doesn't need 13 countries, but when it comes to size, um I, I guess the, the, the, the extent the the, the um the why this was a great research achievement can be emphasized perhaps by the degree of work that this entailed. So this might be perhaps the number of Children, the number of samples, the size of the work um would have conveyed that perhaps you spent many hours working on this proposal. Um You know, the analysis. So over and above perhaps, you know, I don't know, half a dozen data sets which um which you took an evening. So you do want to convey that. Actually, this was something that was unique. It was something that was um detailed, it was time consuming and it had impact. I think the, the, the, the the why is probably one of the most important bits of this question? I think again, setting yourself apart. Um What did you learn from it? What new skills did you get? Why did you find it rewarding um in what way has it changed you and impacted on your career choices? Why does this mean try and link it to your application of becoming an academic doctor? So how was that experience really shaped your decision making about applying to become an SFP doctor and potentially even guiding your interest in respiratory medicine, say, or pediatric medicine? So you're telling a story and and allowing the person to perhaps visualize you as someone who has got involved, worked hard, learned from the experience and it's informing your future career direction. So I suppose to pick up on that Jill just be critical. The why part of it here for me is this last sentence? Um I suppose just reflecting back on it, it is very brief and it isn't very specific like broad base of skills. What the hell does that mean? Um How would you change that? So, um OK, so how would I change your answer? The single best achievement and why? So you um so your findings at an oral presentation at National meeting, you could sell um a national meeting of the world, experts in uh cystic fibrosis medicine. Um You could even perhaps a um um you know, you know, published abstract um as part of that meeting. Um So I that you can demonstrate that you have been the person that the group selected to present this research activity in front of a national audience that would show achievement and you know, an impressive um development, personal development as part of it. Um You find it rewarding um because it contributes to academic understanding. Again, perhaps you could develop it further by saying um new understanding. Um it's not been, you know, this was a unique finding not seen in, you know, that has informed whatever the next step might be in that research group's activity. Um you know, did the finding challenge understanding about the particular problem. So that would explain why what you did really matters. Um Why again, it was um it's perhaps helped you understand, as a clinician, the importance of research outputs affecting um the lives of Children living with this particular problem. I think that comes across. Um And I, I think perhaps, you know, to develop it further, I now feel passionate about becoming a clinical academic whose outputs can help shape the lives of others as part of my activity. And I suppose that's quite a nice way to end the question like that because you're then link me back to and to do this I want to be an SFP I suppose one of the, I would say perhaps in questions I've scored against about balance. So for me, and again, I would preface what I say is that this is my opinion, there may be a variety of opinions elsewhere in the country as how they approach this. But I would want to see a sufficient balance that the why isn't lost with what you did? Which takes up a lot of the question you do need to make sure that you've got enough word count left to think about and why did it matter? It was new information, it was challenging new knowledge. It allowed me to present in front of this national audience with um you know, sort of expert um um reputations and because of this experience, I know, I now want to pursue a career in academic medicine. So you make sure that the what isn't dwarfing the y amazing. Excellent, perfect. Does anyone have any comments about this in the chat to talk through any questions about this to talk through? So, so Janabi has, how much of the question should be talking about your achievements versus talking about why the ski would help as an sop doctor? OK. So we were on the same page there. So um again, and again, it's perhaps back to this underlying point about taking time. Um And you know, when you go to iteration 17, then you know, you're probably there but it's going to take a number of iterations to get it right. So I would argue that you do need to have a good deal of balance. You need to set up the why you need to explain why it was a research achievement and why it was really good. But you do need to have enough words left that the why it matters um is is visible to the reader. I think, I think just the point of kind of the practical process of drafting these questions. I often find not worrying about the word count at this stage. Right? Like deal with it afterwards. Right. Absolutely. That's a really, really good practical right to write the answer to the best, the best answer you can possibly write, you could, there's always ways to um to cut down the words. Um And that's the easy bit actually, once you've actually got the structure and the content of your answer just spot on. So write it, deal with it later. That's my, that's my crude way of thinking about it. I agree. Ok. Any other comments? Fine. Ok. So I think just to kind of round off then and our main top tips I think get, get them sorted early and it doesn't have to be perfect because you're sending them to people to make them perfect and just get them out and make sure you have time to send them to people for them to make edits and for them to you, for you to look over those edits and hopefully send them around again because it is really important that you do that also familiarize yourself with the oral form before you submit because um it's not intuitive in any way, shape or form and it will find extra words that don't exist. Um So just make sure that you know that your words fit before the night of the submission because otherwise you're gonna have quite a stressful few hours. Um get it sorted and it took me about maybe 18 hours of work to go back through all of my emails and try and find all certificates and like see what actually I I've done and get the white space question sorted and don't do that the day before like I did because it's horrific. Just make sure you get it sorted. Um Read, review, revise, proof, read, read again, proofread again, edit pro again, get feedback, make sure you give these to other people because it is so important to do that. And always remember the thing you're trying to get across is why you're going to be the best SFP who's applying to this job. So be enthusiastic, be, be committed and be thoughtful in how you're writing these questions because if they get through, you will be fine. Um and make sure it's not boring because if it is boring, yeah, the, the selector has about another 200 of these to read, just make sure that you have something interesting down there and that's probably a very important point. Ok. I think that's all of the slides I wanted to run through and I think we've got about 10 or so minutes left. So I think we can probably take any questions or follow up on any, any other points if that's useful. Um, I think we can also chat about other elements of the SFP as well if that's also helpful. But if we can focus on another few minutes, that's probably help. Um Robbie, we've got a nice question from um a man about um if we look at the question. So um can you apply for education, one gene in research another? Yes. How it affect the final question? I suppose. Which question are you talking about? But if you're thinking about um achievements and the, the, the, the, the white space that um the last question we were using as our example that is about research. So the answer will have to be about research. If you're applying for education, then you might want to consider educational research within that white spec question. And that would be a really neat way of um you know, covering two birds with one stone. What's your most important educational achievements? Um have one that relates perhaps to clinical research or laboratory research and one that potentially is around educational research. But again, it's about answering the question and it's also it's also worth noting. I, I can't remember what it was last year. You do get the opportunity for some of those questions to tweak your answer for the uh, place you're applying. So, so do that because it's useful but you do have the option to tweak your answer to the SU A that you're sending on to. Um, fine. Ok. Uh I think, I mean, Eamonn has another one about, do you need, do you need senen certificates as proof of anything, er, when you submit these things? Um, no, not to my knowledge. I think, I think, I think no one has ever asked for evidence. The only times you need to supply evidence is the type of thing of where you, you submit something in your educational achievement form saying that you've got a publication, you need to supply the, you know, public d or whatever about that. Um It is possible for Suoas to check what you've done and there is a mechanism in place that they can ask you if you say something that's a bit like um but um no, you don't formally, it's not mandatory submit to submit evidence for everything you put on the whole of your application actually, but specifically about questions is no, actually has just told us that Yorkshire do ask for evidence to check quite strictly. Oh, they do. That's different. But that um but their entire thing is the self assessed form, isn't it? Yeah. Which is a separate application of the oral system for memory. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. It ma it applies to other places that are Yorkshire. Ignore my advice to a um fine. Ok. So does anyone have any questions or anything else they'd like to talk through while we're here? Just from just the last couple of minutes? Any questions about sf pr that you had just one other key tip I would say from in, in. there's a great, thank you. The, the number the four you've written down up. Perfect. I I would probably just flag that point. I made a little earlier about you all will have a wealth of examples as part of your undergraduate career over five years, give yourself some time to doodle what might go into the box and reflect as to which is the most appropriate example that you can really develop and choose to sell yourself and give yourself enough time then to, to change that as time goes by, keep those examples. As I say, there's got to be, you've got to sell yourself and make yourself different to somewhere else. Um Keep them real, keep them authentic, keep them interesting as, as as Robbie said. Um and um and, and, and you know, and again, is perhaps as, as close to medicine as wherever possible actually. And just to point about, can you apply to a maximum of two uoas? Yes, you can apply to one or two. You don't have to submit both applications if you don't want to um you just apply to the general SFP job in wherever you, wherever you're applying. Um not, not to overhype anything but consider applying to normal. It's actually quite nice. Um So please come um fine. Ok, perfect. So I think I'm probably gonna hang around for another couple of minutes. So if anyone's got any other questions, please um feel free to ask them. There's two things to make you aware of. So the first is um please fill out the feedback form for the session. I think it's, there's a email that very useful to do that for us as well. And the second is um as Alicia, another member of the team has added in the chat, we're gonna run some interview practice sessions for those with interviews across kind of the end of October and early November. Um If you would be interested in getting some interview experience with Sfps who've been through that interview, um Already please fill out that form because we need some idea of how many people are going to do it. So we know how many teachers to recruit. So if you would be interested, please fill out that form so we can make sure we know that you want an interview session. Um Otherwise, thank you very much and I hope everyone else has a lovely evening. Thanks very much, Robbie. Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye guys. I'm just gonna, I sit here a few minutes in case any other questions. It's great. Robbie. Thank you so much. What's your interest? What's your Demi poster on? Oh, ok. Oh, that's I actually really interested to know what your yours is on, but I'll just say we'll talk about it. Actually, there's another question from someone from way. Let's talk about that. So you, so how it works is you apply to an SU a for a job and then you, um, effectively are able to then rank your jobs. So you, so say, for example, in northern they have 21 jobs. So you rank those jobs and then, um, you can actually pick to not rank certain jobs if you don't want those jobs. So say, for example, um, Norland has some jobs that include, I think it's academic first, then forensic psychiatry and then vascular surgery. I didn't want that job. So I right at the bottom, but I still want the SFP job. But I know people who applied for the SFP who absolutely didn't want that job. So didn't rank it at all, which means that they would not be offered that job. So you apply to the Deanery, but you rank your jobs and if you are offered a place, you'll only get the jobs that you've ranked if that makes sense. So, um, it's a bit, it's a bit complicated, convoluted, but that's how that system works. So, you apply for the job or you apply to the Deanery and then rank your jobs. So, yeah, it's, yeah, complicated. Um.