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Okay. Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining am. We're just going to take a couple of minutes just to wait for, for everybody to join. Um, and we'll probably get started a couple of minutes. So, um if you could just be patient for a couple minutes and we'll, we'll get cracking. Okay. Hi, guys. I think we should make a start. Um We just wanna say thank you so much for joining us today on a Saturday afternoon on a nice sunny day. Hopefully, we can make this quick and while doing that, we can give you a quick introduction into what life is like as an academic and as a surgeon and how you can start prepping the speaker is here for you today. Um And um I will hand over to Hermes and he can introduce the speaker and we can take it from there. Her meds. You're muted. Thank you. So, it's a pleasure to introduce Mrs Seneca. Do. Who's gonna kick us off with a great lineup of talks today. Um Sit and studied medicine at ST George's um medical School in London. Um After completing this, he moved across the Cambridge for foundation training and then to exeter to do his course surgical training. Um He's also been around and spent six months in Neural Zambia where he was a senior surgical registrar. Uh and then you return to exeter to do his research and urology. Um and he's lodged the identify study as well. Um He's part of the British urology researchers in surgical training research collaborative where he leads to identify a study which has become the largest observational study in hematuria and secondary care. So, so then after that, he's come back and he's doing his, his urology training in east of Scotland and he's taking time also to do a phd. Um And he also does a lot of teaching and he has a lecture ship at the University of ST Andrews. So I'm very privileged to have Mr Sedan Kadouri to kick us off with our presentations for today. Thanks Hermes for the lovely introduction. Um If you could take down your slides and I can maybe show it. That's great. Thanks. Okay, hopefully you can see this. So, um as hell me said, my name is seen an Kadoorie. I'm currently a urology trainee in the east of Scotland. Uh I'm an academic trainee. Uh I'm currently based in NHS five. Um And that's how I, how I met Hermes as a keen young medical student. Um So I just wanted to spend a few minutes with you talking about my journey into academic life. And um you know, how, how it happened. Um And some tips maybe to give you guys um to, you know, along your path even starting from, you know, from medical school. But as you become doctors and go through your training and pick your, your specialties. Um So hopefully this will give you a bit of shed a bit of light on academic surgery. Um So the first thing that I wanted to highlight, um is that failure is not the opposite of success. It's actually part of it and it actually creates opportunities. Um You know, I didn't sell through um to get to where I am now, I've had many failures in inverted commerce uh in terms of today's standards, for example, um I failed my mrcs par be three times, but that's well twice. I passed at that time, but that's because a lot was going on in my life at the time and I didn't do it at the right time. Um I actually started out uh you know, life as a F Y one wanting to become a neurosurgeon, uh which I did for a year. But, you know, I didn't really get, I didn't get a training number as such. But in the end, I realized that I didn't want to do neurosurgery. So that failure has opened doors to urology where I'm much happier and I've been a lot more successful. So never look at failure or things that you've, you know, fail exams and things as a, as a bad thing, it's only uh opportunity to grow and, and open new doors. Um So, in that light, this is how my sort of academic journey started. Um I failed to get a train neurology training number at National Selection. Um So I'm not sure if you know the root but normally do foundation years and then you apply for uh course surgical training. And then after that, you apply for urology training. There was a brief period where they had um urology run through from after a foundation year, but I think they're scrapping that now. Uh Well, it's very rare at least. Um but so after I came back from Zambia, I applied and I didn't get in. Um and um I, as her me said, I spent course surgical training in exeter. And uh you know, I worked hard, I pressed the team and they said come back and work with us. And one of the academic surgeons there, John mcgrath said, I'll take you under my wing. Let's have a look at your portfolio. We'll see where things are lacking to get you a training number. Um So basically had a look at portfolio and with the interview requirements, we've, you know, discovered that I needed a bit more research. So he was, he had a lot of connections and he said, well, we can do something basic to get you published like a, you know, a national audit which I did um um he said, but you'll need a bigger project that kind of has uh can grow legs and, and it's a bit more impactful. So at the time he did, uh when he was a training, he did a study on looking at the cancer rate in people with hematuria that come to urology. And that was at the time, one of the key papers that was quoted. And he said, well, you know, if you want to take a project on do this, but we actually forgot to collect the smoking history, which is a big risk factor. So he said, why don't you just repeat it and then um collect smoking history and you can get that published. Um So I did that and um basically um that opened up an opportunity because it created um what uh is now called the identified study. Um So initially, after, after that, I collected about 800 patients' worth just within hospitals around my area trying to collaborate. Um And then um with uh John, who was the academic lead for the British Urology section, you know, he invited me to various conferences and things. Um And through that, I um then made connections and met burst the British urology researchers and surgical training at the time. There's a very small group. It's a, it's a trainee collaborative group that basically um integrates with other trainees to, to deliver collaborative based research projects. Um So we all struggle to publish and we try to do all on our own and collect a lot of data. Um But you know, it's, it's a difficult task and you can only really have a population for your single center. But if you collaborate with other trainees around the UK and even internationally, you, you all need to just collect small amount of data. And if you put it all together, you get large data very, very quickly and that can be very impactful. So at one of these conferences I met burst, they just finished a project and we're looking for another project because I've done this work with identify. Um they really liked the idea and said that they take it forward. And so that grew and I got my training number um and it was in east of Scotland. So I moved up to Dundee while still delivering this project. Um And the project was really, really successful. Um So through our international network and uh through social media advertisement, we were a very successful team. We worked good as a team together and we worked hard and we had collaborators collecting data, sorry, collecting data from all over the world. As you can see, they're all these different places in the world, we're collecting data for us. Um And it was tough because I was in full time training and um you know, I was trying to do full time research as well running this project as the lead and I was, you know, um, doing things on the data collection website um in between operating cases and it was mental, but having a team was really, really key because it meant that when I do something they could pick, pick it up. Um, and so identify is now, um, the quoted paper for um, cancer prevalence is in he material. So, you know, when I now go to sit my exit exams for consultant, I'll have to quote myself, which is pretty cool. Um So that's what hard work pays, pays off. And then, as I said, I got my training number and it was in Scotland and the only thing I'd say, um is take the obvious path for you. Um, and I say for you because, you know, the obvious path for someone else's is different. For example, I knew trainees that weren't willing to move and, you know, for family reasons or whatever they had to be in the same Dean Ary. So they'd actually reject a training number, uh, reapply the following year, but I didn't have any ties. And I thought, do I want to move all the way from exeter to Scotland? That's literally the other end of the country. Um And then, um I kind of thought about it a bit but the real sign if you like to, to go up to Scotland was when I was at one of the urology conferences, the European ones. Um And I just felt a bit lost and went for a coffee and one of the uh pharmaceutical stands and they, in the exhibition hall there was a big screen presenting the main stage. And on the main stage was this guy called Prof Endow, who was talking about his charity in the Gambia and how he went out and did two copies and how he's, you know, lead an academic life. And I just thought that guy is amazing. Who is he? So I looked at the program and look to see where he was and hold, he was a professor in uh in Aberdeen. So I was like, right, well, that's the sign. Um So I'm off to Scotland. So I took the job to Scotland and that was the obvious path for me and I knew that there would be opportunities there. I didn't know exactly how good it would be, but I followed my heart and uh went along and as I said, I did my first year clinical training in, in Dundee. Then I moved to Aberdeen. By that point, the data collection had finished and we'd, we'd gone into analysis and I was really, really struggling to do full time job, full time research. And I felt that I wasn't giving the study um and the collaborators who worked so hard, the right the amount of time uh to, to do it justice. So I was basically heading towards a breakdown and uh hit the help button by going to my very supportive urology department and speaking to one of the consultants, um and I encourage you all to find someone who's like that, who's got good pastoral skills, who's got good advice. And she said, right, we need to sort this out. This was May and we were due to do our next rotation in August. And she said you need to take time out a program uh to, to finish this. Um So, you know, sometimes you need people to tell you that you're not looking after yourself and you need to hit the pause button and, and just look after yourself. Um So, you know, normally out a program takes, you have to apply a year before, but within a month, she managed to sort it all out. Um I went to the University of Aberdeen, spoke to them, um got an interview. Um I asked prophene dow the guy that I, you know, that look that I aspired to at the conference who I then got to know to be my supervisor and, and I got someone else from the university and I started my um out of program doing a phd uh in Aberdeen. So a bit unexpected, didn't know that it would turn that way initially, I thought to do an MD just to give me enough time, but they said no, do it properly, do a phd. So I did my three years of phd in Aberdeen and that was an in credible experience. Um It gave me time so I was still working clinical alongside it just to kind of pay the bills really. Um But because it wasn't sponsored, it wasn't funded. Um So I basically learned stats I did, of course on health economics, I learned so much about research. I learned about ethical approval. I sat on a ethical panel. Um It just gave you the time to really venture out and do whatever, you know, academic pursuit you want to follow. Uh And of course, I wrote my thesis and, and defended it three hours of fiber, which was tough. Um But it was all worth it. And uh my graduations at the end of this month um in Aberdeen. So it'll, it'll all have been worth it. And then of course, uh as a medic, you know, you're only allowed three years out of training program. Uh So you have to finish a phd in three years. There's no, you know, you go back to clinical work regardless if you've written your thesis or not. And the best advice people gave me work was, you know, write your thesis and have, have defended it before you go back into clinical training because it's so much more difficult if you're full time clinical. Um So, yeah, so then I went back, um and even before I went back, I was thinking, gosh, I still got a lot to do. I've done my phd, but I've still got papers to publish. And I'm now chair of Burst, the organization that I collaborated with to deliver my, my project. So I was supervising lots of different projects. And um even before I was going back into training, I asked my program director if I could take a bit of time out for academic. And he said you either have to go less than full time or apply for a formal academic training uh lecture ship which is part of different universities around Scotland. So each university offers one. Um I applied to the University of Edinburgh but didn't get it again, another failure. But that was an opportunity because you know, it opened up other doors and this is, this was a little bit of being at the right place at the right time and a little bit of charm because I am charming when I want to be. Um and basically, I spoke to one of the consultants who is was trying to make five a more academic unit and collaborate with the University of ST Andrews. And before you know, it, I had a spreads lectureship. So spreads is um basically the academic training but stands for Scottish uh clinical research excellence development program, something like that. And I've now started a lecture ship in ST Andrews, which basically means 20% of my time is now research and academic. So 80% is clinical and 20% is academic. But the good thing is that it doesn't delay my uh completion of training. So normally when you reduce your clinical hours, it adds on to the um uh um you know, the, the total time you need to finish training. So it would have added on six months or a year. But the spread spark way is especially based for people so that they don't have to do that. So, you know, if you're nice to people, you get on and your friendly and you work hard, people will want to help you. That's the idea behind this slide. Um So yeah, as I said, um during the University of ST Andrews, I've, I've been formally with them now a couple of months. So my role includes um research and I've met um data scientists um people to help me with my grant applications. So I'm looking at now probably delivering a trial when I'm a consultant. Um So the idea behind these two years in training um will be to develop a grant proposal for funding for a clinical trial uh based on the work I did for my phd. Um So, um yeah, all in all, it's been, it's been a in credible journey, my top tips for you guys um to be successful, I guess. Um As I said, don't be afraid to fail. It opens up opportunities um be someone who completes what you start. Uh So finish, finish what you, what you start. Uh Don't say you're going to do something unless you're committed. Um because people won't take you seriously. If you want to do a project, you need to finish that project and show that you're, you know, you can do the little things to be given bigger tasks and that's how you grow. Um Don't be one of those people who ghosts go, someone who gives you an opportunity that's really rude as well as being uh bad mannered, um be personable. Um introduce yourself to people, exchange ideas, contact details, network as much as possible, throw yourself out there. Um No one's gonna, you know, push you away. Um And the more you meet people, the more you show your face, the more you're known within that academic world and the more people will give you opportunities, believe in yourself. Um As I said, if you fall, get up, carry on, um push open the doors that are open to leave the closed doors behind. Um But believe in yourself, you're all very bright, you know, just getting into medicine means you're intelligent. Um So you've got what it takes. Don't ever believe anyone who says you can't um create a good uh support network, academic and otherwise uh because that will be the key to your success. Um So don't try to do on your own uh be part of a network, be part of a group. Um There are so many collaborative and things that are going on uh again, start with little things show that you can do them and then you'll be rewarded with bigger tasks, um, and work with similar minded people. Um, I mean, there are some people who think I'm absolutely crazy and, you know, that's fine. They just want a simple, simple life of, you know, just doing their clinical work and having there something else. So, you know, it's a work life balance is important, but it's important to be surrounded by people who have academia on their mind if that's what you're into, uh so that they can drive you and encourage you. Uh And that's it really, I'll take any questions now. Thank you so much for that. That was extremely inspirational, I think. And it just shows you that even if you do have difficulties along that path, how successful you actually can become and all the opportunities that you can get. But I think what you've been saying is you need to chase for those opportunities and you need to really put yourself out there to do that. And I don't think you've obviously worked hard for what you've done and I think it's not going to come easy and I think like you're saying, you've got to be proactive. So I found that actually extremely useful. Um I just had one quick, I'll start off and we've got time for a couple of questions. I just want to ask you what it was like to do. A phd um and clinical you know, at the same time, it sounds like it might take quite a lot out of you. How did you manage that? So, as I said, I had a very supportive urology department who basically allowed me to do the bare minimum clinically. So I only did really one or two clinics a week and the on call. Um, but actually, I'm really glad I did and I had lots of advisors that said continue your clinical work, firstly, to keep your um skills up. But secondly, actually, um research became more stressful than clinical. So when I went to do my clinical work, obviously, I had a few years of urology behind me. So I was quite experienced. So I didn't, I don't really have to think any more when I do on calls or clinics, I'm sort of on auto pilot and actually doing the clinics was a nice break. It was a nice get away from academic where I didn't have to look at data and think about logistic regression and, you know, multilevel effects and God knows what else. Um So I really, really enjoyed the fact that I had clinical work as a break. It also kept me sane because I um was when I started my phd, we just then went into COVID lockdown. So actually, clinical meant I've got to see people in chat, which was great. And one more just for my, and can you tell us a bit more about your, your lectureship award at ST Andrews and how you get kind of involved in that and what stage that comes around. So, um Saint Andrews is just starting out there spread program. Um So they're, they're fairly new university, but with the other universities, um and even Saint Andrews, there'll be a formal application process. And in order to be eligible, you need to be in a training program. So you need to have a national training number for a specialty. It doesn't need to be surgery. Um But you, you can apply for a spreads right from the word go and build in a phd into the spreads program. I'm actually unique in the way that I applied after doing my phd. That's not the norm if you like, but I do know that university of saying uh University of Edinburgh are a lot more um they prefer more lab based research. Um So they're quite sort of wet lab, heavy research. Um Saint Andrews will, will allow clinical research. They like that. Um Aberdeen, I don't know much about um but each of them if you type spreads and then the university into Google, I'm sure you'll get information, but you're all at least five years off from that. You need to graduate, do your core training and get a number and then um and then uh yeah, look at applying. Perfect. Thank you. So I'm just saying in the chat. Um we don't seem to have any questions at the moment, but thank you so much. Um You've definitely been very helpful with my journey so far and I hope you've been able to inspire and help some of some of the members who are listening to this today. So thank you. Oh, there's one, there's one question. Yeah. Do you think that you read that getting in matter reviews versus clinical are CTS comparative observation in terms of uh no, just for, for your course surgical training, just get involved in anything. Um I mean, each of these things will give you different skills. Um I think, you know, randomized control trial, realistically you're just gonna be uh recruiter. Um If you want to be impactful and get your name on a paper, maybe some observation, all studies might, might be useful if you want to do systematic reviews as there's lots to get involved with. Um and that can get your name on a paper but you know, the big, big studies, um I think, you know, you're just gonna get an acknowledgement at most, but it's good to show that you've been involved in in clinical trials and recruitment because that that shows your breadth of research skills uh in your portfolio. Um And then there's another question, if Singley caring for disabled parent, can you get hospital accommodation on site? Um I'm not sure about that. I think each hospital will be slightly different. Okay. That's great. Thank you so much, Mr Cena and it was, yeah, sorry, I keep freezing. Thank you so much, but uh uh on time. So, um yeah, thanks so much. So, our next talk is going to be about the specialized foundation program. Um And I'm honored to enter Jewish. Doctor Harun Man has, who's a graduate from the University of Glasgow. Um And he's currently working, working as a specialized foundation program, trainee in Greater Glasgow and Clyde. So, yeah, it's gonna bring on, can you guys give us a couple of minutes just to try and get icy sources and we'll hopefully be back on in one or two minutes? Okay. Right. So, can everyone hear me now? I think we've gotten over the initial humps frozen? Yeah. Fine. Right. Two minutes. Just stop living a presentation clear. All right. So I think we're good to go. So they thanks now for inviting me to present of this. Um So I'm one of the academic foundation trainees or as it's now known, the specialist foundation program. I did buy undergrad at Glasgow and interpolated. And then I've ended up here working as an AFP and Queen Elizabeth at the moment. So a I don't know if everyone has had a look at this, but this is sort of the National Institute for healthcare and research integrated academic pathway. So all of you guys, I would hope are somewhere around here, medical school, I'm somewhere about here. Um And this is where I want to be and we all want to be. And the reason I'm showing this is to demonstrate how there is a lot of ways and a lot of your points where you can enter into an academic career. So if you've not started now, not to worry, there is going to be lots of opportunities down the line where you can get involved and get to a point where you'll be involved in academia. So specialized foundation program, it's what was formally known as the academic foundation program. I'm not quite sure what changes they made because it's basically remain the same except the names being changed. So what does it do? It gives you an opportunity to develop some research skills, some teaching skills and some leadership and management skills depending on what kind of programming on. So you're on one of three of these, although strictly speaking, West of Scotland doesn't really separate them and they just do the research skills. They don't have much teaching or leadership. So I'm not gonna talk about leadership and I'm not going to talk about the teaching skills aspect of it. I'm just going to talk about the research aspect. So the program structure of the academic foundation program, um it's identical to the regular foundation program. There's not much that's different, especially in fy one. For me, it's been identical to all the other Chinese. And yeah, there's not been any difference um in F I to our, the slight difference is where it comes is that enable us to some Dean Aries offer one full block of academia, whether that be research, teaching or some leadership and management stuff. Although I don't really know what goes on with leadership management stuff because I've never looked into it. Um Not really my area of interest in the west of Scotland, which is the program that I'm on. You get one day per week in fy two for academia, which is, I guess it's really good because it gives you a consistent sort of time to develop on research and work on research rather than a four month block. I know that if I got a four month block, I would never finish any research in that time. I just don't have the mindset to sit down and just look at research the whole way through a four month period. I would lose my mind, um, in some training programs. This is off their website. Although I don't know which one's this applies to you. Get an academic time throughout both years. Currently, the program that I have on all the stuff that I've gotten involved with over F I One has been my own personal time and I've not actually had any protected time. The only thing that I has been offered to me as an academic supervisor, so I wanted the orthopedic. So I've gone orthopedic supervisor who helps, has helped me get involved in some research and get, has helped organize the taste a week for me, which has been very useful actually because a lot of people, um, find it difficult to, I guess, find an academic supervisor or someone to kind of take a lead on that side of things. But I've been really lucky on that side of things. So, what can you do at your stage? So, depends really where you are. So if you're earlier on, in your medical career, medicine, so if you're talking about your three year to your one or you know, even if you're four things you can do, you can learn about research methodology. So I always say that it's approaching research. Certainly for me, it was a very difficult task because I knew I knew I want to get involved in it, but I knew nothing about it. So one of the first things that I actually did, I was, I went and learned some of about the research, but most of my learning actually came from inter cal. And I'm gonna be honest, all the stuff that I learned before had drastically developed in the year of inter cal. So learn a bit about research methodology because you can't really get involved if you don't really understand what's going on G C P. So good clinical practice. Now, the National Institute for Healthcare and Research offer this program. And if you want to get involved with any real clinical research, if you wanna, whether that's recruitment or whether that's um you know, leading uh center or being A P I, which I don't know if it's entirely realistic at your stage. But if you want to get involved in these kind of things, you need to have your G C P in any clinical research that you get involved with other things I would recommend is depending on what university you're at, I would consider inter kelated. Um It gives you a really good opportunity to look at something and a bit more depth. So whether that be surgery or some other, other specialty or anatomy or, or anything like that, the other thing it does is it gives you an opportunity to actually work on a focus project for a full year, which you might not actually get ever again in your career, especially until you're doing some specialist academic stuff, which is way down the line. So it's a really good way of getting a project prior to applying for your C stds and your run through applications. Other things you can do is you can get involved with projects and I said it's, it's not realistic, but you can still get involved in small things. So like retrospective observational studies, some very small prospect of observational studies or some pre clinical studies, like looking at healthy volunteer studies, those are very realistically possible in the timeframe of four months or even a summer project to take on. And the M R S Scotland actually do offer um, a sort of uh funding for you to go away and do research over the summer. So I think it's like a stipend of 100 and 70 lbs per week. Um I would look into, it's MRSA Research summer vacation ship. Basically. What you have to do is you have to find someone that's willing to, to take you on as a student for a project, you make your application and you outline what you're gonna do. And then every week you get, I think it's up to 12 weeks you can do it for. So one, it gives you a bit of money for the summer um to get your project and the person that you usually get involved with her quite into their, I try to do this. So I try to extend my integral, integral projects to do a second study on it. But unfortunately COVID happened and then that's kind of went down the drain. The last thing I guess is you can get involved with uh some teaching that goes on at university. It always looks good on applications for SFP. So whether that's delivering lectures or get involved with the teaching society. So what did I do? So I mentioned I inter Kelated. So inter Kelated in critical here and anesthetics lost go poorly because I was told that was really good for research and um it was very clinical and like the other ones which were all sort of lab based Inter Cal enter Cal's as part of my inter CAL because I did a healthy volunteer study. I had to do G C P. So I got my G C P. Um I was involved heavily involved with Gomez. So which is a Glasgow University Medical Education Society and was present for about two years of it. So that gave me a lot of chances to get involved in teaching and build, build my portfolio from that side of things. And really the only project that I had from medical school was my project from Inter Cal which led on to give me quite a few things which I was really lucky to have. But again, you can get a project, even if you don't integrate, you can spend the summer too during your elective or summer vacation ship and get it that way. Mhm Sticking next time still. Uh OK. Timeline. So I'm not going to go through this individually, but basically your application deadline is your 21st September and your interviews they claim start from 22nd to third of December. Mine's were all mid December that that happened. Um And then you have to according to the S F P U K F P O document, you um Yeah, I guess because you make your applications, but um this is according to their UK FBO document, I'm not sure if this is how minds work the mines are slightly different but effectively you make your application, which is a lot earlier than it is for the regular foundation program. You have your interviews after that, you rank your jobs um in that Dean Ary. So you're only allowed to apply to Dean Aries and then you go through four rounds of offers and then clearing offers. Um And you need to be quick on these offers because they're only for about 24 to 48 hours. So the first round of offers is 11th of January. Um and the deadline is going to be something like 13th in January. It actually submit whether you want to accept it or not. So you have to be quick with it application. So you make your application through Oriole like you do for the regular foundation program, you're only allowed to apply to, to specialized units of application. They should say penury within a this type of their um each day nery manages their own recruitment process. So UK FBO doesn't really get involved with it. Um Generally there's an a little extension of an application process in which there's whitespace questions, which is basically short answers and they give you questions and I've looked at the last year's questions which are 2022 I looked at the ones from my year and it looks like they're using the same questions throughout. So I don't know if the questions actually changed, but they're not that hard. They're basically based around basic stuff. Why do you want to do academic, what's your career goals? Um, some sort of question about or research you've got involved with. What's your, I think it was like, what's your best achievement? And my, um and it's just they rank these white space questions and it adds up his points towards your application. Then the rest of the applications, basically, what academic papers you've got, presentations, prices and the asper specific evidence or this. So you need to do, need to upload certificates and stuff. Then hopefully, if you've been successful, you'll get invited to an interview. So the interview, you book a slot before the deadline. So they give you a deadline, you pick a slot, it's all online over teams. It's quite easy and it's quite sort of intuitive. So it's, I think it's better than having to go somewhere then to be personally. Um what my advice is read up on the program that you're applying to because individual generated binary, the programs differ quite a bit on what they are. So the two that I apply to raise Northwest, which is Manchester and Liverpool kind of area and west of Scotland. So west of Scotland does one academic day in F two. Whereas um Liverpool did a full lock of academia, um I would try and find current trainees and at that Dean Ary, um I don't know how easy that will be, but um generally speaking, like if you get in touch with one of the academic trainees for one Dean Ary, they'll know someone that knows someone that knows someone. And through that you can find someone that is kind of working there. Um Before your interview, I would re re read up on what research, teaching and leadership and skills methodology. The reason I say this is because despite according to the research program at my Manchester and my God is going to really, I still ask me questions about teaching methods. I don't know about leadership and management cause they don't really ask me anything. So I don't know. Um ensure if you've done a research project that you know about um are the west of Scotland questions different from different scenery? Yeah. So the interview interview style and interview questions are very different throughout between the Dean Aries. Um And they do give a, each scenery does give you a rough guide of what their interview entails, which is on their website. So you can go and look at that, ensure that if you've done a research project, you know, the ins and outs of that research project, um These people are the generally interview are quite into research and quite, quite quickly unpick stuff that's wrong with your research. So to be able to defend your work like that you've done and remember not every piece of research work is perfect. This is one thing I've learned that there's gaps in every bit of research that you do and there's downsides to every bit of research. Um arrange practice interviews to find people that have done these before and ask them to just give you an interview during your interview, be prompt, dress appropriately. So I will a suit. So just keep it simple, I guess, I think before you speak, listen to what question they've asked you before you start going into your ramble and try and answer the question that you've been asked rather than going off on a tangent structure, your answer. So think about how you're gonna structure answer. And this is, this comes through practice of listening to different questions and thinking of how you're going to answer them and remember to keep your answer concise because you've, you've only got 10 or 15 minutes or so per panel to give them your answers. So you want to work through the whole interview. Be honest if you don't know the answer to the question but try to work it out. So don't go off and just make stuff up. Um Be honest and be candid about what you know and what you don't know after the interview. Relax and focus on ESG 80. The reason I say that is your SFP job is dependent on getting a satisfactory score in your sgot. So if you completely bomb your S A T U, they will look into why you bomb your S A T. Um If you're offered a post, remember to try and accept it or reject it. Don't, don't miss this deadline. I know someone that did and then didn't get offered another post when you get and if you get SFP, start early. So at the start of F I want to try and identify supervisor, someone that's willing to help you liaise with your supervisor, meet with them and try to aim for something achievable. So I keep saying this, that and I think the previous speaker was mentioning this at the end that um be realistic about what you can actually do with the time you have randomized control trials and these sort of really big change, life changing or practice changing studies. Um Whilst it's great that you want to get involved, that it's not realistic to expect that you're going to be able to do something like this in your academic program. What things you can do is you can do systematic reviews and meta analysis. So I've, I've, I've taken, I've done a full systematic review and meta analysis and I'm working on a second one just now and I'm probably going to do a couple of my fo to so they're very realistic to do observation studies. I've done one observational study retrospectively looking back and they're really easy to do because a lot of people just have this data set sitting about and they just want you to look at something and if you know how to do research and you know how to write papers and you know how to do some bit statist six, it becomes really easy to work through this. And at the start, I struggled a bit on remembering how to work the software are, but because I've done it so much in ventricle, quickly came back and again, work through all these with no hesitation. Um, so look for something achievable and something that you can realistically do even a small healthy volunteer study, um, is very achievable like in the space of an SFP. So lastly, what on the train? And I really hate when people put coats up, I think this um this author, she's a author for disability rights. But effectively, the point I'm trying to make is that if you don't get an SFP, don't be disheartened because there's a long road ahead of you that you can get involved in academia. And this is just a starting step and it's literally just from the academic program foundation program perspective, all they're expecting from you is to get involved in develop some skills. Um So if you don't get it, don't be disheartened because all the time that I've spent in my F I one has been my own personal time doing these projects. Um And you can very easily, still find an academic supervisor um that will supervise you on things. So just because you don't get an academic program doesn't mean it's the end of the road. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Um there's no I C T anymore. So I don't know if they're gonna, I don't know, I don't think the STD is going to remain effectively. So I don't know what they're going to use. I think they're just gonna go with SFP interviews which might actually make it less competitive to actually apply to SFP. I think there's a strong myth that goes around people that's very competitive and you need to do loads of things to actually get an SFP. But I think for my year with the way the S G T score in worked out and the number of fy one positions that are available, it was a lot easier for me to actually get a position in the hospital I wanted than it was for some of my friends. So sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. Going back to what I was saying, we're only at the start of this academic pathway. There is a long road ahead where you can get involved and you can still reach the same ends. There's loads of researchers out there and tenured professors that won't have done the academic program. So just because you don't get an academic training program doesn't mean it's the end of the road. So sorry, I ran on a bit, but I'm happy to take any questions and I popped up my email there. If you wanna send me an email later on, if you think of the question. That's great. Thank you so watch her run, really appreciate you coming and giving us uh an insight and to kind of have to get involved in how to apply for the AFP and have to start training early. Um If anyone has any questions, feel free to kind of unmet yourself and you can ask him right now or email him or kind of fire into the chat, but we are running a bit short on time. So yes. So I, I do think it's about uh it's about one of those. Uh So the question that's been asked is do you think more people apply to SFP after the changes or do you think the SFP application will change as well? So you K F P O haven't made any changes to the document as far as I'm looking. So to answer the second part of the question, I don't think the changes are gonna may just yet at least for this application cycle, but they may well for the next application cycle. I can't predict what's going to happen. Do I think more people apply? I don't know if people will catch on that my be less competitive and especially in the era that we're about to enter, which is random allocation, it might actually be more um easier to get a place that you want at hostel that you want through the SFP than it is through the regular program. So people may actually catch on to that and it may become more competitive. I certainly do think that it's now become more easier to go through SFP. If you wanna say, if you want to stay in west of Scotland plan to the west is home greenery and Scotland beanery, it does make it easier to get that position. But whether people will catch on or not, I'm not sure. I don't see any other questions coming through. Um, but yeah, if there's anything else, just kind of are demanding, you can always ask Korean leader and I can get back to you. Uh But yeah, thank you so much again for your time. Um uh Pass it on to your next. Thank you so much for that talk, doctor heroin. Um So next up we have uh Mister George Davis that will be delivering our specialty, local specialty talk. So George was born in India and he completed his medicals to school degree and masters in surgery from uh India. And he's currently undertaking his surgical training in the north of Scotland to become a general surgeon with special interest in general surgery of childhood and royal surgery. And he's also doing his masters in law in healthcare, law and ethics. So without further ado do we'll have Mister George Davis. Um Okay George, are you able to turn on your camera and um mute yourself? Uh Two. There's one second to work out the technical. Okay. There we go. Uh Hi George. Hi. Can you can you hear and see me guys. Yeah, that's right. Brilliant. And if you can let me know how to share my slide. Uh So you see the present now button on the bottom panel, you can just click on that and upload your slides and their share PDF. It doesn't say a prison know. But anyway, I'd say okay, sorry about that. Strange. Trying to figure out would you like me to upload it instead? Then I can flick through it? Yeah, I can't see the person now. That will actually that's okay. Um uh Yeah. Mm Sorry guys just give us a second to work this stuff. I'm trying to do it from my end and now. Oh yeah, you're doing it for me. Good. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Do you want me to do it for my end? Just try you 11 time before you go? Uh Sure if whatever you like really? I'm happy to do it either ways. I'm just trying to do it. Open my computer now, so I'll start presenting that and you can upload on your annual. Yeah, mind changes, uploading. Great. Can you see me now? Perfect. So good afternoon of you. And once again, thanks for the nice introduction, Kirsty and welcoming me for the event. Uh me myself, George. I'm currently in ST in Aberdeen Royal Infirmary. Uh been working for years in UK before that and as you heard have been from India, essentially, I've been trying to talk to you about uh general surgery, the life of how a general surgeon Clinical Day is all about. So some of the things which I'm going to tell you may be of some interest to you. Uh And at the end of my presentation, hoping that at least some of you would choose a surgical job as your career and passions and profession. And we, we need young blood people like you to run the show for this country. So all of us have had high expectations when we get through the hard years of medical school, through the foundation years into the long 8, 10 years of surgical training after that. So the expectations are pretty much high and we often aim or look forward for a well groomed job, properly dressed, looking fine and clean and thinking all about the doctor house stuff and other medical stuff you've heard and seen in the deli. But most of the day our job is mainly multitasking. So essentially we are tied up on different perspectives. So we will be having phone calls from theaters, from ward, from nurses, from managers, from all different kinds of NHS bureaucrats. We will be very pressurized with the time management skills. We'll have I T problems. We, we struggle too, have a cup of coffee, get some second hydration and like nutrition into our system. When we talk about having not being giving enough to the patient's and we'll be struggling. We are all underpaid. So we'll be struggling with money. We'll be struggling with family, friends and all those stuff. So the end of the day, it is a stressful job. It is not an easy job. And sometimes the reality is, it is what it is. We may have to lie on the floor where we get, when we get 10 minutes break, we just lie down to get some energy back on. I'm not trying to scare you, but you have been called in for a call. It is, it's not an easy job to be a surgeon. It is a very passionate job. It is only for a few people who have got the burning fashion in there under the belt to make a difference. And this is what we aim for. Uh This is, this is Dr Shetty, one of the famous cardiothoracic surgeons from India. So see how blessed his life as so how thankful people are. And this is what we're aiming for. We're going to make a change to a people's life, to their families, their friends and we're saving their lives, which nobody else could do so it is not, it is really worth the struggle we go through when we have these happy moments and we aim to spread smiles. So this is what we get. We may miss our weekends, we may miss out of us fun. But when we come to work, we will have people who are really grateful and thankful to us. So, and if, if we didn't act on time, proactively, these people would have lost their life, a limp or something precious. So, a job is a very, very beautiful one to look forward to. And I'm going to talk to you about a few things. Firstly, I thought how to prepare yourself. I've been listening to your other presentations. They've been very thorough. Uh I've been trying to, I'm trying to tell you how to get into a surgical job. And the month rise, you need to start early and you need to have a steady pace because most of my uh foundation, your colleagues, our last minute trying to fill their portfolio points and it's either too late or very stressful. So you, most of the points you can actually get through your med school years because you're in the hospital anyway, you'll be meeting your foundation of colleagues, your co train easier, uh uh senior surgical trainees and the consultant. So you can always get an idea what, what you're expecting. And you, if you start early in your med school days, it is quite useful that you get a job without losing a year if you, if you don't want to take a break. So essentially the co surgical training, which is the first step after foundation years where you become a co surgical training. And after that, you have the another interview to sit for the S D three number, which, which is either for general surgery or urology, vascular cardiothoracic neurosurgeon, different specialties. But the end of the day, all of us do have the same co surgical training. And the requirements for this training job has been changing across the last few years. And this is what I found very recently from the H E website. So essentially they have decided uh to introduce an exam called MSR A, which is going to be the shortlist informant, you need to sit for the exam and if you get minimum marks, you'll be shortlisted for the interview. So which was not there before previously, one of the requirements was mrcs party examination. It is not there anymore. So you don't have to stress about an mrcs exams anymore. But what you need to know about is MSR which is quite gentle uh exam which has been there even for the GP trainees, which is not a difficult example, crack, but it is actually a benchmark now. And the other extreme we have the interview which accounts for 60% of the total school interview in a sense is basically two stations, which is one is a clinical scenario and one is going to be a management scenario which is basically how to run the show as a day. One doctor in NHS. So which you don't have to be stressing not much these days because you will have good two years of your foundation is in the hospital. And if you can survive a two years of foundation job in UK, your interview shouldn't be that hard, but closer to the interview you would be and rolling up to various online platforms to learn a bit more of those. So I would probably say you should be actively preparing for interview probably after your first surgical job, which you should be aiming to do in one of your foundation year, one blocks. So then you know what a life affair surgical job is and then you go through the interview scenarios which will help you to plan further today. What I want you guys to understand is the major or the the the the court important principle or the court important thing, which might make a difference for you getting a job or you're not getting a job is basically how strong you are with your portfolio. So portfolio things are not a last minute job, post-polio things has to be on a very steady process so that you get into it before you lose much of your time. So they have been changing every now and then and this is what it has been for this particular year. So essentially they have made it even more challenging and even more broad spectrum rather than looking into only some uh tick box six. So firstly, they want us to show some commitment into surgery. They want us to know what equality improvement project is what an auditor's bit of an insight about the research. They want us to have uh presentations and publications. Uh Pretty much surgical job is very much hands on. But still we need to understand what are the latest research happening in our specialty so that we know what the change in a practice. So we have to be kind of up today, that's where they want the publications and presentations involved in the co surgical applications. And uh and we all our men does to each other. We need to teach our colleagues at every day and we're learning every single day of a life. So we need to have a good teaching experience or a teaching aptitude so that we we inculcate that spirits. That's why the teaching experience is also important. So these are the four grossly divided domains of the portfolio which you need to develop from early days. I would say you're the right people to start developing those uh skills and uh evidences for that. So you won't have to be running for it in your foundation years where your job is mostly going to be very clinical and it's going to be very tough doing these things simultaneously when you have a full time clinical job. So how do you show the commitment of surgery is basically attending conferences? So clearly says my aim when I apply for any job is to get the maximum points. So if you try for the maximum number of points, as everything is going to be easy. So it's not, it is difficult to attend surgical conferences, but it's not impossible. So the maximum number of points you get is when you attend three surgical conferences. And believe me, the conferences are expensive and to get leave for that is difficult. But you would find a time in your medical school days to attend these conferences more than your foundation years. Firstly, the registration fee will be less for medical students. And you, you, you can actually plan your uh conference leaves much easier than air foundation year. So attending three conferences is what you need on one uh element of your uh surgical interest. The other thing is operative experience. Essentially, you don't have to operate anyone, you wouldn't be able to operate anyone, but it shows how key you are to get into the job. So what they basically need as your involvement in 40 or more cases, which is being an assistant or probably observing, which is equally equally fine. So if you can make yourself available to 40 cases, that's the maximum you need. So attending 40 cases, it's not, it's not a problem if you have the right aptitude and if you're keen to be a surgeon, so you can be a second assistant, third assistant scrubbed up and even watching. So all those things count. So make sure that whenever you get a chance in hours out of hours, whether you're a student or a foundation, your doctor make sure that you are there for it. So, so it might change. It was 20 a couple of years ago, they have raised it to 40 because people are easily doing 20. So by the time you come to the application years, it might be 60 or it might be slightly more different. So I would say whatever slightest chance you get yourself into theater, make use of it because every single experience uh keeps you a better surgeon. The other thing is experience in the surgical life. So if you want to be a surgical doctor, the end of your years of training, definitely you should be aiming for a block of uh surgical specialty in your two years of foundation year. So the maximum score you need you get is three, which is by doing a four months block of surgical general surgery job, which could be urology, which could be a general surgery, which could be cardiothoracic, which could be neurosurgery. So make sure that in your two years of foundation years, you have at least one block off surgical job if you can get to, that will be good for your experience. But one is enough for the maximum score for the port for you. So the we move on to the second core domain which is clinical audit. So clinical audits are pretty much very important in NHS because we constantly try to improve ourself compared with the gold standard. So that uh the element of income involving the clinical audit has to be there in a daily practice. That is why it has got eight points. So you can score up to eight points if you can lead a surgically themed clinical audit. So it, it can, it cannot be any audit. It needs to be surgically themed. It cannot be uh whether the lights have been switched on off or things like that. It has to be something to, to surgical and you have to actually lead it. So being part of an audit and really leading an audit is completely different thing. So by leading you mean that you make a plan, you meet, people recruit the team, get uh get the data collected, analyze them and, and uh and make yourself uh do a departmental presentation at least and you get a certificate from the haunted department. So all of you when you're in Mexico, so you, the problem you might have at this stage is you may not know what to do with an audit, to have a topic to do an audit, speak to a senior colleagues when you come into the ward and ask them pretty much everybody in every single stage of their surgical career would need a clinical audit even for the consultants. So as part of their annual appraisals, so they are all keen for about it, but they would need some young blood to get some more energy in order to get an audit done. So, uh so the first thing you should do is meet somebody and ask for an idea and get yourself as the first order of the first order of the uh or the leader of that audit. So, and anything less than that will be giving you less number of points. But the aim should be a surgically theme audit and you're going to be leading that and if you can present it's taking a bit of a time. Hopefully. Yes. And if you can present that audit in a national or international meeting, uh you get five points. So you, you have plenty of national and international conferences in the UK. So one common, one is A S G B I which is the association of the Surgeons of Great Britain Ireland. Then you have another for various subspecialties. You, you have something called A C P G B I which is the Association of Cola Proctology for The Great Britain and Surgical Doctors. And you have acid conferences, you have regional conferences in Wales, you have regional conferences in Scotland. So a to present your audit in a national or an international meeting. So aim for a good project which is presentable and if you can lead it and if you can present it, you get the maximum points in this domain of the portfolio and the third domain we need to know is about the presentations and publications. So uh the best is you win a price for your oral presentation, International International meeting, which is a herculean task. But if you plan well ahead, it is not impossible. So I've seen some of my colleagues planning very well ahead two or three years before uh and making sure they pick up a right project which they can actually present. The other thing is the audit which are used for the the topic you used for the audit. You cannot use that for the presentation again and get points in both domains. So you should have different projects. So the audit you should you're doing is going to be your audit and you can present it, but you have to have another oral presentation. So presentations can be either oral where you go to a conference and talk about a topic or you can have posters, which can either be a poster presentation or just going to be an e poster kind of a thing. But if you can have a good topic and if you can present it in all these prestigious honorary conferences and if you can win a price, that's the best. And the other thing is if it's a good one and you can actually publish it. And if you can be the first order in one of those publications, which is but indexed, you get 10 points, it may not be possible for everyone. But if you can try for that, at least you end up presenting in a national conference. Pardon me? Or an international conference may not even win a price, but you still get eight points. So you should all be aiming for having a presentation or publication and getting it published beginning from your late years of your med school into your first year of foundation is because usually a publication to get through the loops and heard as it takes at least a year. So if you want to get a publication ready for co surgical application at the end of your F I to, you should have all the things done by the end of fy one because it takes good 10 months, one year to get things ready. And the following slides, uh it goes from 10 to 0, which I'll share you, the slides later should go through and, and the other thing is teaching experience. So which is also something, it's also something which needs some planning. So you need to score the highest number of points, which is 10. And for that, you need to actually organize a teaching series yourself on a regional level. So you get 10 points for a regional level. But if you can organize a teaching series in your particular hospital where you wear work, you still get six points. So the best way to do that is say, for example, if you are going to be placed in north of Scotland. So the three teaching, two teaching hospitals in north of Scotland is Aberdeen and Inverness. So if you have a very good friend in, in Venice and you being placed in Aberdeen, and you can actually set up a teaching program which can be online where you have to do it. They say at least four presentations, you can have a presentation once in three months, you can share them in yourself. So one of you do a presentation from Aberdeen and make sure that people from Aberdeen and Inverness attend the webinar and the other way around. So by doing that, you have a regional presentation and you have easy to arrange four of them and you have organized it and you get 10 points of it. And believe me, if you meet any of your co surgical trainees or uh specialty trainees, they'll all be keen to do the teaching project because all of us do need to show continuing experience in teaching. So we don't have to organize a teaching at our stage. We just need to be doing teaching stuff like I'm doing today. So all of us would be keen to join you if you give them a topic, say, for example, can you talk about gall bladder appendix or laparotomy or acute surgical admission and they will all have presentations already. So you just need to organize. So that's how you pair up and find a body and speak to your senior colleagues. And it's not, it's not difficult. But the thing is you have to start a bit early. These things won't happen if you start collecting the points at the end of FY two, which is, which is going to be difficult. But if you start early, this is good one for your knowledge basis. Second, it is good for getting the maximum points for the interview. And the other thing is which is, which is something kind of new, is having a degree or a masters in, in, in teaching. So which is also something difficult in the sense it needs time, it needs a bit of money to invest and uh it's never too difficult. So, and the final bit is all of this information out there on the the website. So nothing new. The last few slides is like, basically, I would like to introduce to you the new things which you need to know about the general surgery. General surgery has changed a lot now we have especially in Scotland, whereas most of the population live in the rel areas and we have hospitals based in the Ruhr a while areas of the Scotland, we have got something on a neural surgery which is basically you are a pure actual general surgeon who's actually Jack of all trades. So you say for example, you're in Shetland and Orkney, you have a sick patient. You need at least few hours for them to, to get, to get transported Aberdeen by then they might lose their life a limp. But if you can save their life. They're doing something brilliant. They have what? Special surgical fellowships, which is part of the training. So you might be a bit of an amputation, bit of vascular work, bit of urology, bit of general surgery, bit of everything. Uh But at the end of the day, you're making a serious quality change for the patient's life. And these are some of the rurales surgical hospital we got in Aberdeen and the s are in, in Scotland. And the other bit is what we have been doing in Aberdeen as such. So Aberdeen is the first hospital in Scotland to have the robot. We have a full extensive teaching training program happening in Aberdeen for the robotic surgery. We have the best robots in the world and all our surgical trainees are getting exposed into robotic surgery. Over the last two years, we have to robotic theaters, running flood floods every day of the week except the weekend. So, so I'm introducing to the two extremes, some might be happy to have a life, the neural side of it and some might be happy, excited to have the extremes of technology into the job. So um these are the things which I wanted to let you guys know to make sure you get interested to the job and if I can see you as well. So my colleagues later on in life, it will be great. Thanks for attention. Thank you. Thank you so much George for that really, uh, informative talk. Are there any questions? So, I think we have some, a bit of time for maybe one or two questions. If you have any, you can put it in the chat or just feel free to, um, it yourself, there was a question in the chat. Well, I just read out. Okay. So, so someone has asked when on annual leave as an F one doctor, can you spend time in surgical clinics and theaters voluntarily in your free time? Very good question. Um I think daddy, yeah, that's what you should be doing. So you won't be located to a surgical theatre or a clinic on your row to because your job is essentially running the show. But I'm pretty sure you still have time if you want to and make yourself available to the theater sessions to the clinics, even if in order for the whole theater for the whole day, scrubbing for cup, all of us will count the numbers and spending half an hour in clinic will still give you the experience. So you should make yourself when you work even on an annual leave. So most of the things we do is out of us. Um So yeah, definitely, definitely you can do it and that's what you should be doing to be to be making sure you're getting the best points out of the work you do. Okay. And I think there was another question before. That was not I'm not too sure if it was answered, but someone asked us the quality of publications or like, so your level of involvement mattering more than the quantity for CSC applications or is it just a threshold that you need to reach for in order to get a number? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, essentially I'm not 100% sure about whether you need many publications. But the thing is it changes every year. So previously, it used to be the involvement in number of papers and projects. But now you need a proper one. You need to be a first or the publication public and in an index journal. So which needs to, which is a lot of work. You, you don't get yourself a blissed in an index apartment index journal. So you need to have a proper topic and get yourself ready. So the best thing for that is probably meeting people like Mister George Brown say who are who are in the units. You should be knowing him one of the colorectal surgeons. So he would be having plenty of projects under his belt and he would need people to do that and he wouldn't want to be a first order for any of those because he would, he has already got another 203 100 applications already. So meet people like him or other people you might know and they will have projects and get involved. I think that's probably all the time. We have for questions. Um Do you maybe want to drop an email in the chat George? So maybe if people have any further questions, they can contact you if you're happy for that. Um Unfortunately, I think due to time constraints, we'll have to move on. Uh Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much for the opportunity, so much for joining us to George. That was very useful. Uh Perfect speak you guys later. Thank you so much. Have a good day, so much you take care. Um Hi guys. So that's all our speakers that we had for today. And now we just have some talks for you guys to give you guys from the four of us. And it's more just kind of reinforcing what we've spoken about today with the surgeons and also just from a medical student point of view, just kind of letting you guys know what you can do and how to get involved. Um So the first talk is about how you can actually get involved in surgery as a medical student and it'll be given by myself and Hermes and we're the reps for Glasgow and Saint Andrews. So obviously, if you're from there and you have questions, just give us a shout. Um So we're hoping that this stage like from the talks, you've realized that obviously surgery is a very rewarding career, but alongside that it is highly, highly competitive to get into. And the competition ratio is typically around 123. Um and giving yourself an early start is extremely advantageous and like all the surgeons have been towards, like you can start early as a medical student. So when you begin your clinical placements and try and make contacts, ask around if there are projects taking place and just try and get involved as early as possible. Um So the surgical training pathway, I'm sure this was covered earlier as well. Um But this is just a broad outline. There's no right way to do this. People drop I/O for whatever suits them. But ideally it's your foundation training, which is usually two years. Um And then you go on to your core surgical training or your I S T um where you kind of rotate around uh surgical specialties for two years or you can do the run through program into a specialty. Um And then it's your surgical training where you're working at a registrar level. And that's for roughly six years before you then become a consultant surgeon. So your CST application um like George using um a lot of emphasis on your portfolio. Um and he and just making sure that you have evidence for all the different areas that George mentioned. Um So we'll kind of skip over that just because he has gone over it. So there is a self assessment score in guideline online and we've got the link attached here. So we can send out these slides after um just make sure that you, you're staying up to date with these because they do change relatively often. Um And recently for 2023 they have changed. Um But again, just kind of going through these and marking yourself seeing where you stand across the four domains that George listed and how many points you have? Because when you are invited for an interview, that is where, what they will be marking you against and um the question that they give you. Um Yes, so just kind of making sure that you have the time to go through the criteria when you come. Um And yes, so the requirements, like I said, change every year and they have changed for 2023. So just make sure that whichever year you're applying for your kind of checking this specific criteria for that year. Um And, but like the course article trainee does kind of until the main components that you need for all kind of um surgical programs as well. So that is if you can aim to maximize your points across the cold surgical training application, um I think you'll be in good um place for if you want to do for run through programs as well. Um So yeah, and like George said, you don't need full points and everything, you just kind of have to pick and choose what you can maximize your points in. Um For example, there's like the teaching section, people will kind of struggle to have like teaching degrees and qualifications. But again, you can, even if you don't get the maximum points in that section, you can still pick up two or three points. Um So yeah, and just don't make yourself unhappy chasing after points. Um If it's not worth as much, just you do have to strategize and again, having a mentor, you can kind of guide you through these things will allow you to see what things are easier to pick up points. And so, yeah, so now moving on to building your portfolio. So I found this, I think this is a great opportunity when you're a medical student. I think like some of the speakers were discussing. Um we, we, we can have time and we can strategize our time to build a really strong portfolio and it's not too early, I think. Um So, yeah, attending surgical conferences, I think everybody's quite aware to do that. And especially by now, after all the speakers um trying to get operative experience and surgical experience, I think it's a very good time to try and do that. Um And you know, surgical experience um just a quick anecdote, a bit of a bit of a thing I experienced. I was on the ward and I asked one of the consultants if I could possibly join them in, in theater and they turned on to me and they said, yes, of course, yes, you can. Um but there was one of the F Y s who also asked at the same time, um and the consultant suggested that they have to finish their jobs first. Um And so the fy wasn't actually able to get into the theater just because they have a full time job. So they've got to finish all of their, all the jobs and priorities and only then can they move on, um, you know, in their, in their spare time to join the theater. So I think we've got a, we're in a good situation where we can try and take advantage of that. Um Going to surgical conferences doesn't have to be expensive. There's all the Royal College conferences um which you can go to. Um And they're quite good for networking and you get a nice fancy certificate. Um It doesn't have to be them all the time, but they are quite good source and doesn't keep it structured. Um E logbook for operative experience is quite a good idea. Um So you log in all your experiences that you've helped in theater. Um You can log in all the ones that you have just um watched. But if you can scrub in and you can contribute, even the smallest thing of, you know, passing some, you know, passing equipment over, you know, very, very simple things that can actually contribute to your log book and we'll, we can put a link or we can set, we can send you the slides after for that as well and the surgical elective, which we touched on. So I won't talk too much on that. Quality improvement projects can be very, very simple. Um And it's quite good as you've seen, they get a lot of points on the applications. Um So you've got to try and focus on, on that as much as you can, especially medical school because you do have a bit more time than you would in Fy. Um find something that's, that's interesting find, ask around the department that your interested in, see what's going on in the surgical department that you are. Um and then try to present and submit if you can present locally. That's good. But you can also use that as a source of points for presentations and either either poster or um spoken presentations. Um It could be something really simple. So for example, I've done equality proven project in wound care management. Um And so we basically looked at trying to ensure that patient's and staff all no kind of what information it needs to be passed on any complications with, with them with the wouldn't care at home for patient's. Um So it can be quite simple and you can just collect the data locally and then you can just present locally or even nationally and don't be afraid of, of applying to different conferences as well. And you've got to be quite brave and put yourself out there Yeah. Um Yep. So presentations um it can be anywhere. I think that the more kind of national international um potentially you get more points. But like we said, the, the criteria can change every single year. Um oral or poster. It's quite good post is quite good way to get you started. Uh And then as you build up the oral presentations would score you more points. Um and everything can be virtual actually nowadays. So you can even just be in your bedroom and present. That's one of the things I took advantage of last year and the year before you could just present from, from, from your room and you didn't have to go anywhere. There was no costs, there was nothing and it was very easy and that's still done to this day. Um And like I said, go for it. Honestly, there's nothing to lose. Apply for both or, or sometimes if you don't get the spoken presentation, sometimes they offer you poster instead. So I'd say apply for both and you can either you can get one of the two um and prizes as well. Prizes are points. So if you get a prize, that's a bonus as well. Publications, like we said, quite tricky to obtain, sometimes it can take a long time. Yeah, it's just one of these things that if you've been in a fortunate position in the past where you've had experience, especially if you've done an undergraduate project or inter collate if, if you've inter collated, um that will stand you good stead, but it can take some time. Um But that's where things like collaborative research come into play, which is one of the things that our first speaker was talking about with, with burst. Um and things like Star surge as well. It makes it much more accessible for everybody to contribute. Um Yeah, sorry, I just realized I hadn't switched the publication bit there, but that's fine. It's still the same things. Um And one final thing, teaching, I think the most important thing is um if you can do it at med school, that's ideal. Um Sometimes if you go to, you know, we're still learning essentially, but you can do, you can teach any year groups, you can. And I think the most important thing here is just getting feedback. Um It's uh if you can't prove it and you've got no feedback, it's almost like it didn't happen, find somebody who's quite keen and interested and passionate in teaching and if it can be, if it can be done um regionally, that's amazing. Um But you can also start off locally and branch off. So. Okay. Um Okay, so just a bit on how you can kind of develop your portfolio a bit further while you're still in medical school. So, like we said, so for the 2023 application, they have kind of taken the mrcs Party um surgical courses, postgraduate qualifications, prizes and all the different points used to get for that, but don't disregard these things because things are changing every year. So you don't know by the time you kind of get rent applying, um it might back on the list and just because you haven't done those things, you might miss out on points. So there are just core skills that you would need as an aspiring surgeon as well. So it's always good to just stay up to date with these. Um And yeah, so uh next slide, please. So yeah, um like Hermes said, degrees and qualifications. So if you get an opportunity to do inter cal um and your interest in research, it's essentially like you're getting the degree in one year rather than the three or four. Um So it was a great opportunity to have. And um like Dr Harun was speaking, like most of the times throughout medical school, you're not taught research skills and stats and how to interpret all those things. So inter cal is essentially the year where you can learn to do those things and then build on them as you kind of progress in academia throughout your career. Um and then prizes and awards. So national is obviously sorry, internationals worth more than national and the national over regional. So it's always great to just present wherever you can and be brave. Apply. What's the worst thing that can happen? You'll get rejected. That's okay. Apply again, like it happens. Um And yeah, like any kind of like medical skills honors distinctions um that you get, they all kind of count towards points that you can put towards application. Um If you're doing inter color plying for grants, Bursary scholarships, things like that, they again councils count under as awards all things that you will get prizes for as well. Um So yeah, look out for things that are relevant to your degree or relevant to what you're studying and apply for them, make the most of what's there for you. Yeah. Um And then your leadership and management skills. Um So join your surgical society as a member, kind of get a feel for what the society does and what kind events they run and then if things if you're interested then apply to be a committee member. So you can be more involved. Um It doesn't necessarily have to be the surgical society. Ideally, we like any healthcare based society would obviously be good to be involved in it's relevant experience. Um And then again, if you apply for national committee such as the B M A star surgeon asset, um it becomes a regional thing rather than a local thing. So once again, that's worth more points for you. Um So yeah, and then lastly, we keep emphasizing this evidence is key. Um You do have to kind of make sure you're collecting feedback for any um teaching skills or any talks or anything like that, that you're doing, it all counts towards everything in the end, no matter how small the thing you think you're doing, just make sure you get certificates to evidence that um one and like when you're out on your placements and when you're in kind of any kind of links you make, just really try and make sure that you make good contact, try and find yourself a mentor is kind of inviting you to theater when they're going, who quite likes the way that you work and you can understand them because it's always good to reach out to them when you are looking for like projects that you later want to get involved in. Um And then the, the f past rotations that we've mentioned um is it is the foundation program. So if you don't get onto the academic foundation program, that's fine. Obviously, it's great if you do. Um But you can like strategize and try and get to surgical rotations with things that you're doing any kind of surgery, like there's vascular surgeon ones, um neurosurgery, cardiothoracic, things like that. So it is available for you just kind of have to flick through which rotations give you die, no surgery and another surgical rotation. And, and that way you have more and more surgical experience and when you're doing that job, you can log in your case is as well that you're doing. Um if you haven't collected them as a medical students. So there are always ways to go about. Um Yeah, and yeah, to evidence once again, if there's no evidence, then it doesn't count. So email your consultants, your supervisors and ask them even to like send you an email. Um, any words of praise or anything like that, just document at all and just have something that you can show. Yeah, I think one more thing to add to that is, I think it's quite useful to have a look at the, at the matrix for, for the surgical specialty application forms because they can be quite specific with things that they want. Um especially when it comes to letters from consultants or evidencing. Um So for example, in Q, you know, if in Q I, you will have to mention that you have led um that you have done two cycles of Q I and it needs to be on the form. So have a look at the application forms and see exactly what they want as evidencing because it's um it's all there. And the last thing you want is to evidence and then for them to turn on and say, you know, look, we don't have the required evidence for it. So just make sure it's, it's done, it's done, right? However, if you only have email confirmation or, or a consultant letter at the time and that's okay. Um So just going through some of our experiences, then we've talked a little bit about joining the Surgical Society, which is really good, becoming a member and then maybe potentially joining the committee um is very good. And through the surgical societies, you can also get different, different jobs, you can get allocated different jobs on top of being a committee member. So you can become teaching leads. You can do, you can be surgical leads, you can be suturing leads, you can organize annual events with the society. So it does give opportunity for teaching through them as well. So you can use that obviously, getting involved in things like star surgery will be quite good. Um Thinking about quality improvements cause improvement projects and surgery. Um have a look at the annual Medtronic Surgical Skills Competition, which has just become available to medical students as well in the past and a couple of years, I think over lockdown. Um That's quite a good one. Um And yeah, considering S S E S in, in surgery. Um and then presenting maybe any, any results you get from your S S E S um and just scrubbing into as many surgeries as you can. I think that one of my best piece of advice, um if you're going to be, if you want to get involved in surgery is just to offer and say that you're happy to do as much as whoever is leading that day, you know, finds appropriate. Um Say you want to get stuck in, say you want to do as much as you can. Um And you'll get good experience and you'll remember that and it will be quite useful for you going forward as well. So I'll put yourself out there. You'll get lots and lots of opportunity and try and identify those who are willing to give that opportunity. Um And just some final tips from us then um try and be strategic. Don't do too many things at once. Be realistic with, with your time and with your plan as well, make sure you don't burn yourself out, but challenge yourself. Um Keep everything organized. Have a folder. Maybe you can keep some paper copies on the, although I know sometimes evidence it can be hard if you've got a big folder. Um However, I think you potentially in the past, you have needed to present all your evidence in folders and big ring binders, whether that will be the case in the future. I'm not too sure. Um But just make sure they're organized um and use the log book for, for evidencing. Um That's, that's probably the top tips there. Um I think what we'll do is we'll probably move on to the next presentation. Um And then we'll save all the questions if there's any going at the end. Does that sound reasonable? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, hi, everyone. My name is Testim. I'm the regional lead in Dundee. I'll be doing this presentation with Kirsty, who's the Aberdeen regional lead and we'll just briefly go over how to get involved in research as a medical student. So I'll briefly describe what research is as basically gathering of data to answer a proposed question. It's usually conducted all stages of the medical progression. And without it, there would not be any advancement in medicine. I'll just hand over to Kirstie to briefly describe the types of research. So in terms of the types of research, uh so you have your lab based as well as you're clinically based research. Um And I'll just go into the wet lab and uh dry lab based research uh each in detail. So in terms of the wet lab research, this is research that's just done in the lab setting and you're working with biological matter. So this could include things like cell lines, tissue cultures, uh animals or even chemicals and drugs. And these often require more hands on work for you. And uh it might require, you know, prior lab, basic lab, lab skills such as petting or culturing cells, et cetera. So these tend to be less uh popular amongst medical students due to time constraints. But if you're interested, they could be done during collective uh integrations where there are more opportunities for you to do that. Um So in terms of dry, that research, this involves just previously collected data that comes from registry. So it can come in the form of literature or systematic reviews as well as meta analysis. And these can involve a lot of just sitting in front of the computer to analyze data with either a statistical software or just screening through records from a literature search. But they tend to be much more accessible in terms of getting started. Uh As you only really require a computer and probably uh working internet connection, and you're often more low risk research in the sense that all your data has already been collected or published. And then we also have the clinical research which most of us are probably familiar with. So this is research that's been supervised by consultant in the clinical setting. And this may come in the form of conducting surveys with patient's in an outpatient clinic. Uh consenting them for involvement in the clinical trial or auditing local practice or guidelines. Yeah. So this is just like a framework of what research all the steps of research are from conception Ultram dissemination which involves posters, presentations and published papers as a medical student, you wouldn't have to form the idea and like create the study protocol. You can just start at any point the project under the supervision of like a registrar or consultant and then you can go on and present it or publish it. Can you go to the next like this? Okay. So why get involved in research as an undergraduate? It improves your understanding of diseases and clinical processes and fulfills and stimulate like sort of an escape from like like really remote like learning and clinical placements and can stimulate some academic interests as well. You can learn valuable skills like study protocols, data collection skills, analysis skills, probably previously mentioned bio speakers such as R S P S S C or Python and as well as your writing skills. Um The G M C said that uh surgical training is a competitive job and research cause you a lot of points on the applications. Can you move on to the next place? Yeah, perfect. So the outcome for the graduate section 26 says that newly qualified doctors must be able to apply scientific methods and approaches to medical research and integrate these with a range of resources of information used to make the decisions for care. So just shows you how important research is and how well its course your points when you're applying for a surgical girls. So questions to ask yourself for starting is what subject are you trying to convey a project in? And are you interested in it? You have motivation. How much time are you willing to spend on it? Why are you wanting to do this? Are you wanting to present it in a conference? Are you wanting to publish it or like just for your C V applications and ask around everyone's like willing to help. There's good consultants and registrars, even senior senior colleagues and medical students as well. Let's remember the three piece which is a person which is you, do you have the motivation, what skills and experiences to have the project? What are you interested in? What will you've been working on and the place like your team, your supervisor and the resources are available to you. So there are many ways of like getting involved in research and opportunities around to get a taste of what research is like and you just really need to find them. So you can broadly look at these in terms of intraocular curricular as well as extracurricular research. So in terms of intra curricular research, this is typically the most accessible form of the to where you're required to take part in research as a part of your medical degree. So students selected components S S E S are a really good opportunity within that, go beyond the current curriculum and learn about something which is of interest to you. So they take advantage of S S E S as they're a really good starting point for getting the feel of what research is like, especially when you're working in a big group as well. Alternatively, inter kelated degrees are compulsory in some universities. And this would also allow you to take a break from your current medical degree to get another degree in the subject that's related to medicine. Um And you can also have a lot of chances to undertake research um and medical school electives as well that takes place during the final year of medical school. Would also, you know, allow you to go anywhere in the world pretty much with the possibility of arranging research within it. So, in terms of uh extracurricular research, this is a less common method of getting into research. Um And it's not because it's not directly required, you know, as a part of your medical school curriculum, and you'll have to use your own free time to conduct this type of research and considering other work life commitment as well. Uh So this can be more self directed and more difficult to do as you need to find your own supervisor to support you. So an opportunity for this would be through summer projects. So the summer holiday doing preclinical years uh would be a very good time to care at research and you can either do this through summer research scholarships or funding that you can apply through the university or Royal Colleges. Alternatively, there are also a plethora of research opportunities around if you're interested. So every, every clinical placement that you're on has research opportunities and you just really need to ask and approach the right people really to help you identify them. Um and lastly collaborative research, this is a good example of research that is pretty much very easy to get into. So for example, that Polo study, that Star search is currently organizing allows you to easily sort of dip your toes into research as the commitments are usually quite flex flexible and they're not limited in terms of who, who is able to get involved. Um So these are often multi center studies to answer research question and you can either get involved in either data collection or pain patient recruitment. Um And yeah, just to help make a bigger and more substantial research paper. So in terms of finding a good research supervisor and how to go about this. So the easiest ways to start by approaching professors or clinicians when you're on the ward or after lectures even and express your interest in research really. And just, you know, tell them that you want to get involved in a project. You could also reach out to clinicians at your university who are maybe known to be very experienced in research or are regularly publishing. Um And you tend to hear about this. Um So and just, you know, speak to your friends and seniors, seniors around you that have done like multiple previous research as you're likely to give you good advice to who to approach. Uh and would be a good supervisor. I'll be speaking about the daunting part of getting the supervisor. Obviously, you're contacting an unknown supervisor, you're not really familiar with the department. Um So I was a thing that I did that help me get like supervisors for research is like going to secretaries offices or like local audit department. And they usually have a rough idea of who's conducting what project and you can just get involved in it and just persevere not everyone reply, but hopefully you will like, don't get disheartened. You will eventually learn something. Can you move to the next place? Okay. I think that helps us to create a template of an email like along with your CV to share your experience, what you're like, what are you interested in and what skills have you got? Because that creates an idea of what you're trying to go after. And the supervisors will give you uh some ideas and help you with like creating a project. Yeah, another way to approach the questions after lecturers, clinical skill, the tutorial just target off with like some point you learn during the lecture. That's it's a good starter and explain why you're interested in it. And they usually helpful and they will give you some projects they have or like if a part of someone who's got a project 20 and you can get involved in it. Usually from my own experience, I found it useful to like start with as a collaborator like in first here with Star Search Cause. It's a good starting point. You learn like the basic skills of data collection and the ethical, the like side of it as well. And I got also involved in like the quality proven project and presented the other local conference and and all that regarding like vte prophylaxis and orthopedics and poster presentations and general surgery, just like broad interests of mine that I just went after and like, spoke to the consultants and they got me involved in the project. So just a little bit about my own research experience. So I first started getting involved in research in, I think, the earlier years and second year or third year where applied for summer research scholarship in Aberdeen. Um And it was pretty easy to get, I think they're quite a lot. There are being offered and it's something that you should look out for in your university as well. If you're thinking that um you know, you have a summer to spare and you're thinking of doing a research project. Um So I did that and I had the chance to work on a drive that project, which is a topical review that was working on the theme of patient public involvement. Um And I also managed to get a poster presentation out of that and published uh published, presented at the conference. Uh Another thing that I was working on was through my SSC project that I was working on with a group of my friends. And we worked on a card of paper on cardiology. And we decided after I had it in the project that it was a good piece of work. And so we took that further on and managed to publish that a little bit later on. It does take a bit of work. But um I think like S S E S are very good starting point, as I said, so choose it wisely, choose a topic are interested in and, you know, you never know whether it might be worth publishing they drawn in the future as well. Um And so more recently, I've been working on uh the collaborative project polo study that was, that's helped by um Star Search. And this was just an order that's ongoing in terms of our data collection that's going pretty well. Um And also currently undertaking an inter kelated degree and I'm just working on my masters masterpieces on meal breast cancer and just like some aspects of that as well. Um Also in, well, I'm currently doing the data collection for my QR project for my electives next year, which is what looking at Cholecystectomy services in improving patient care with patient for uh with acute billary problems. So, um yeah, that's also these are some resources um that you can have a look at that's uh organized and produced by Star Search. So it's called in CEPT. And you can have to look at these to kind of just study about like the methodology and um into research and things like that. So I think that's all we have. So any can pop any questions in the chat or just a mute if you have any? And if there's no questions, thank you so much for your time and sticking with us, we know we over overrun a little bit, but we hope you found today useful. Um And if you have any questions, you can get in touch with either of us or just whoever is your um lead for your region. But if not, these are all kind of read ahead. Thank you for coming guys. Thank you. Oh, and please fill, fill in the feedback form that will be sent to your email after. Thank you. I've sent the feedback form to the chat as well if anyone wants to click on that. So we have a question. Um What is your top research tip? Um I'll go first. Mine is literally just um making links. I think for me, like my sec have been great. Like I've had a chance to kind of make myself known with like vascular surgery and my supervisor through that has stayed in touch with me. And he's always been quite keen to kind of get females into surgery and I think being a female that's obviously gone in my favor. Um So he's quite keen, he's always said to me, if you're looking for um to get involved in the future and you need a mentor, then I'm kind of happy to get you through that. So just, and the, the only reason this allowed or this happened for me is because I just said to him like I am quite keen. Um I like surgery and, and yeah, and since then, he's kind of like, let me know when he's going into theater and he'll take me with him. Um, so just make yourself known, I think, make your way. That's more for surgery. I don't know if that answers your question, but that would be my top tip. Um, I think that's a really good point. Um, just like, kind of just look keen and, you know, as long as you're willing to be there and willing to take out project and work, I'm sure most like supervisors will be happy if they have something. Um That's good for you to do. Um I would also emphasize on sort of being organized and just making sure like whatever project you do you have a clear goal in mind. But whether that's to gain some research experience or whether it's to get a publication out of it because I would say like, you should always only agree to topics that projects that you're like interested in because otherwise, you know, you can't really see or not too sure what the future direction of where it's supposed to go and how much, you know, effort you should continue putting in should be. So I would say that, yeah, I would also say that S S E S are a good point to do research in cause then you're spending a lot of time with them and you'll just like make links with everyone in the department if you're interested in that department specifically. But I think it's a good starting point. As well as like star surges, collaborative research dives like a polo that are we currently conducting? Yeah, I would say the biggest, I would say I've had quite a big learning curve with regards to research because I would always think that um oh, there's not enough time in the day and a couple of years ago, I would just, you know, brush it aside. Um But if you're organized and you break down, you know, the week and the day and, you know, you remove, you know, half an hour from each task you have to do or be a bit more efficient with that task. You can always make a bit more time. So, yeah, I could say I don't have enough time for research with my current timetable, but you can always change your timetable to fit the research in there. There, there's always time you can always find, you know, some, some time to fit in. So I think that that's, that's a tip for me is just be quite flexible and, you know, quite challenge yourself to fit things round in the timetable that you've got. Um, because you have to do that for your whole surgical path anyways, you'll have to be quite flexible. So, yeah, glad we could help. Okay. Yeah, I think, I think there's no more questions coming through. So, um, we're just gonna end the chat, the live there. But again, just kind of reach out to us if you have any questions and we're all more than happy to help. So yeah, take care guys. Hi, thank bye.