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Well, welcome everybody. It's 630 now and we'll start welcome to the Royal College of Surgeons of England, SAS Surgeons examiners, webinar. So my name is Fiona Mint and I am the senior vice president of the college and I have with me on the panel today as well shaker who is our SAS Forum chair, um and Alex Landau, who is our Director of Examinations at the college. So you're very welcome to the, the webinar today. I'm gonna give you a brief summary as to what to expect over the next um um half an hour in terms of, of what we're going to say and then hopefully give some time for everybody to ask us some questions. So next slide, please. Firstly, we're going to have a bit of a background on um SAS surgeons and the examining process so far. Why the SAS um surgeons find examining very important. And Venita is going to give us a good little talk about that. And Alex is going to tell us a bit about the recent interco developments that have brought us to this point here and describe the person's specification and the structured references that are required in order to apply, I'll then tell you a little bit about why I think or why we all think it's important that this process is important to us at the Royal College of Surgeons of England and um some sign posts as to how we apply. So I'm gonna hand over to Vanita now who's gonna talk, give us some background about SAS surgeons and examining. So, thank you, Venita. Thank you very much, Fiona. Um And thank you for the introductions. So I'm just kind of going, giving a background to SAS and examining. I joined SAS Forum almost six years ago and I remember any, any meeting we held outside college. Um One question that popped up was when are we going to be examiners? How, what are we doing for SAS surgeons to be recognized as examiners? So this was desire expressed by SAS surgeons who wanted to be eligible and who wanted to act as M MRC S examiners for many, many years. I think the one of the persons who I should give credit to is one of our four members, Mrs Barry De Souza, who was very consistent with um keeping on um making an effort for us to keep trying. Um So we have been in touch with IC BSE for a long time. The criteria has been considered um in the past most recently, in 2018. And the largest obstacle we found was the eligibility criteria which was being a substantive consultant post or equivalent for Basic Sciences examiners. At that point, we thought that there needs to be an effort to change this to person specifications and it should be based on knowledge, skills and experience which should be expected of examiner. So this was a collaborative effort between the SS forum and IC BSE where we um worked on writing uh person specifications. And um I CBE board was very kind and established uh Intercollegiate Short Life Working Group in 2022 to look at the examiner eligibility criteria. Reason being intercollegiate is the eligibility criteria would be the same. Um If one college gives eligibility, I think it will be accepted by all. So, um it was an inter college at work and the inspiration and desire also came from the candidate report, um the SAS strategy and as part of SAS strategy, uh D I work and also equal opportunities for SAS work for next slide, please. Um Another uh reason why SS we thought SS should be included in examining is the GMC survey of 2020 which implied the potential of SAS doctors and dentists in delivery of education and training is not being optimized. It showed 74.2% of SS doctors trained other staff that included senior trainees. Only 1.5% were college and faculty examiners and only 1.4% were education leads. However, only 0.7% were module leads or training program directors and this was one of the reasons we thought that we have to do something and um bring out the um a reason for um the change of eligibility criteria. Next slide please. Um In addition to um having the GMC survey, we also realized that when the new contracts came, the specialty doctor contract 2021. If we look at the contract in with fine tooth and comb, it's mandates that ss doctors demonstrate the contribution to wider education, research and leadership and that inferences on the pay progression, not just that status as examiner. And if you're going to be a specialist grade, it requires evidence of involvement in education and training to enter and progress through the grade. And if you look at the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, a recent paper which was published in 2022. Um it kind of stated that s as educators should be a norm rather than the exception and this paper has been endorsed by all Royal Colleges. That means there is an expectation from all colleges for all medical, not, not just the surgeons that SAS should be recognized as examiners as trainers and as educators. So now I'm going to hand on to hand over to Alex who is going to talk to us about the process, what has been done in the background and how the future lies for the SAS to be recognized as um examiners. Thank you, Alex. Thank you very much Vanita. Um, so as Vanita has already said, uh there was an Intercollegiate Short Life working group established in 2022 to revisit the, er, MRC S er examiner eligibility criteria. Um, and more importantly how these could be demonstrated and practiced through the application process. Um, and this, this seems like a relatively straightforward process. It, but, but it was quite an involved discussion because it sought to replace, er, the primary criterion of holding a substantive consultant post that was previously in place which in fact serve as a proxy for lots and lots of things that, that, that go into that as, as a relatively straightforward by identifying an individual's knowledge, skills and experience in a surgical education and training capacity. And this revised approach reflected practice increasingly seen in comparable exams in other specialties under the GMC S regulation and the the Internal Quality Assurance Committee chair in I CBE at the time, ah was a senior examiner for the Royal College of Anesthetists membership exam. So we worked closely with existing criteria and performer that were in existence for that examination to look how we could structure our own approach as a guide next slide, please. So the first output of the Short Life working group was to look at this revised per person specification. Um and this covered four principal areas. So professional requirements, professional and occupational training, experience, knowledge and skills and personal attributes. Next slide please. And by far the most challenging of these, er, in terms of, er, qualifying criteria, er, was, er, that related to clinical experience, knowledge and skills required. And I've, I've given er on the screen an excerpt of the person's specification relating to this specific area and, and, and probably within this, the first criteria are the ones that were the source of the greatest discussion and consideration by the short life working group. So these relate to the criterion of at least eight years experience, post attainment of either the MRC S or the MRC S ent. Um uh At least eight years combined surgical experience, neither post core surgical training or a substantive senior SAS grade or NC HD surgical post um and demonstrable experience er of surgical practice to include outpatient work, inpatient work, including leading ward rounds, independent operating and emergency on call work. Next slide, please. So once the that revised person specification was er agreed, er the second stage of the work of the Short Life Working group was to agree how these criteria could be demonstrated through the application process. Um And this is now achieved by a more structured approach to identifying the clinical experience of applicants than was previously in place where we had that, that, that mainly single criterion of holding a substantive consultant post. Um And this asks for information around applicants er outpatient work inpatient work, including leading ward rounds, independent operating um and emergency on call work which feature um in the person's specifications are covered in the previous slide. Next slide please. And in terms of er, the, er, the next steps following er, the conclusion of the Short Life Working Groups, um remit um The revised person specification and structured reference form, er, was formally approved by the IC BSE Committee in July 2023. And later that month, it was then ratified by the four college presidents at the joint surgical colleges meeting. Um I'm, I'm very delighted to say that the window is now live for those wishing to apply. Um And indeed, applications have already been received and reviewed um at this moment in time. So I'm going to hand back to Fiona now. Thank you very much for that, Alex. Could I have the next slide, please? So, um this of course, is a very important um outcome for us at the Royal College of Surgeons of England because as you know, when we commissioned the Kennedy report in 2021 it was because we were aware that there were issues with equality, diversity and inclusion um across surgery and um within the college, um Kennedy um Bars Kennedy asked us to look at 16 points recommendations. In fact, we created 1/17 on top of that and amongst those of course, was developing the forum and sorting out or looking at and trying to shorten the gap of differential attainment and examinations. So this will be part and parcel of that and we really welcome this change that has been um allowed by the four colleges. Um and in this particular college, we welcome it with open arms. Um So in terms of Kennedy, um and in terms of differential attainment, this is one of the key aims that we have differential attainment as we all know in examinations is multifactorial. But we feel that actually having a diverse group of examiners will hopefully edge towards lower and lower differential attainment. Can I have the next slide, please? So if you're considering um joining the course of examiners, that's our panel of examiners at the Royal College of Surgeons of England. There is a web page which is there on the screen um in front of you and you can also access that via our um our Royal College web page. Um This applies whether you're applying to become an examiner for the MRC S or MRC S ent. This is not yet the case for the Fr CS, the Fr CS, it's a bit different and is um overseen by a different inter body. So this has been worked through with IC BSE, which is the inter body looking after the MRC S exam. It is JCI EA different body that looks after the Fr CS exam. But we're one step closer with the MRC S. If you're not sure about your eligibility, then there's an email address at the bottom of this slide. Um And our team will be very happy to try and answer questions for you and to guide you in terms of whether you may or may not be eligible to apply. And of course, if you feel you are, then please feel free to apply. We do want to broaden our, um, our panel of examiners next slide, please. So please please think about applying. Um, this is a picture of a very, very small proportion of our almost 400 examiners on our course of examiners. Um We'd like you to be in our next picture underneath Hunter statue. So please apply. Um We look forward to receiving your application. Um, next slide, please. So if you have any questions now, um we will start fielding them. So I am going to start looking at some of the questions as they appear on the screen. I hope everyone has been able to see the slide. So there's a question here. Um Is the MRC S exam mandatory to be an examiner, Alex? Perhaps you'd like to answer that question it, yes, it is for, for, for those wishing to be a, a clinical examiner rather than a basic sciences examiner examining specifically in uh what either the the anatomy, pathology or physiology, basic science cations. Um The MRC S is a requirement. I think also though as Alex quite rightly points out, I think with um if you are a basic scientist who happens to be an SAS doctor and you fulfill the criteria to be basic science examiner. It is also possible for you to apply to be through that route as well. But you will only examine in basic science and not in clinical practice. Next question, can specialists holding European titles of specialization be members of the Royal College of Surgeons? And if not, why? Well, I will answer that question. The answer is yes, you can. If you hold European um qualifications and you are practicing at the level of a consultant surgeon, you can apply to become a fellow of our college at a um and there's an application for that on our website as well. Um Your application will be looked at with it by the AEM committee. And if you're deemed to be of equivalent um qualification or standard or level, um then you'll be invited to become a member of ade. You don't have to take an examination. You do have to have equivalence in terms of everything else though. So that is possible. I hope that answers that question. OK. Let me see if there are any other questions it says here. Oh, another question for Alex here. Can you be an MRC S examiner without the MRC S? But if you've done the Fr CS, so if you hold the Fr CS um as taken through JCI, E um but you don't have the MRC S, then you would be able to, you would be eligible to be an MRC S examiner. There, there was quite a lot of discussion amongst the members of the Short Life working group as to whether it would be, it should be a requirement to have the Fr CS or the MRC S as a qualification as part of the, the, the eligibility considerations. Um, and it was identified that the MRC S would suffice sufficient, er, specifically because it was an intercollegiate group and, er, representatives from the Irish College, er, said that in, in, in the Irish context, um there were quite a lot of quite senior people that only had the MRC S but not the Fr CS. Um and that would preclude them from, from examining. So either the MRC S or the Fr CS um would be sufficient and at the, at the, at the moment, of course, we now have a situation where going forwards, you have to have the MRC S in order to sit the Fr CS. Um OK, another question, I, I'm going to read this one out because it's a long one. It says from my understanding of the recommendations from the SAS strategy report, one of the biggest hurdles for SAS surgeons in becoming involved in education is the workplace culture. Could you tell us what the college is doing to help change that culture and better support Sas surgeons more generally, Vanita as our chair of the SAS Forum, perhaps you'd like to answer that question for us. Um Thank you very much, Fiona. Um So if um you have been aware of the SAS forum work, you will realize that we have a huge da website um on which much of our research work has been published. And it is quite a bit of an evidence to show that we have been quite involved with all workplace um uh leaders, um the colleagues um and the wider stakeholders. And there is much awareness of SAS and its um capabilities, its expertise. GMC is focusing much more on SAS doctors because if you're not aware, we are 33% of the workforce. But by 2030 we are expected to be 60% of the medical workforce. So we are a huge number and it is, it is only OK, it is only right to use this workforce in future training. If you come to our events organized by the college, for example, future surgery, you will realize that there is a mingling of all um different members of the group, whether it's a trainee or a surgeon or a consultant or the support staff. We have panels, we have, we work together outside the conferences, we have lots of creation courses that we are working together. College organizes uh lots of support um events that we are being trained to work together. So I can say that college is doing its best to influence the workplace. Um ASHA three of our SA strategy, we will be doing the road shows we will be joining presidential visits, speaking to the work force leaders and s members and follows whether or not they belong to the English College, we'll be speaking them all and we will be working in the future. So yes, college is doing a lot of work, but I think we would want you to come and join the group. Um College is giving so many opportunities and I think this is our opportunity as a surgeons to utilize this opportunity and bring our visibility in the college life because that will make our place more, much more stronger for the future. Thank you very much, Vanita. And as a college, we're very grateful to you for spearheading a lot of this activity. So, thank you. There's another question. In fact, there's a couple of questions that um probably all tie in amongst each other, which I'm going to ask Alex to answer and it's really to do with how long you've had to have various qualifications to become an examiner. So one question here is if you have the MRC S and the CHM in surgery and the FRC S and Fellowship of European Board and Surgery, do you still need to have the eight years from having sat the Mr CS in order to become an examiner? And there's a similar question that says, how many years after Frcs can you be eligible to be an examiner? Perhaps answer both of those together? So, so in terms of the first it, it, it is um, eight years after, er, attainment of, er, of the MRC S, er, as a minimum to be eligible, um, for those who hold Fr CS but not MRC S. Um, I'm not absolutely certain how that would be reviewed, um, for people in that situation. I would, I would recommend, um, contacting the college in the first instance, um, at the email address that was included in the, in the slide deck earlier. Um and further advice can be given. Thank you. And in fact, there's another similar question which is, do you need a certain amount of years post MRC S or a certain amount of years as an SAS surgeon to be eligible? So, er, it, it, it's er, eight years post MRC S. Um and it's er, eight years, er, surgical experience, either in post core surgical training or a substantive senior SAS grade post. Can I ask a question on that? Which might help expand this? Um, does it have to be eight years continuous service in a UK post A as opposed to eight years intermittent service or eight years service elsewhere? But having sat the exams here. So I, so I don't imagine it would need to be continuous service. Cos we want to make sure this is accessible to as many people as possible who have the res requisite know, knowledge, skills and experience. No, a a and that might not be compatible with individuals, personal circumstances. Um I II guess this is, this is all er, an unintended or, or maybe an intended consequence of a slightly more complicated er person specification approach versus, you know, um holding a substantive consultant post. I think there are going to be a lot of these um cases in which people's individual circumstances are not necessarily perfectly clear against the criteria. And in all of those cases, um I as a director of exams or others within my team would be very happy to provide further advice, guidance, support, et cetera to help people on their journey. Thank you. Um I don't think there are any other questions. There is a question I have questions. I might go ahead, Vanita. So I just wanted to highlight um that it is not just about MRC S or Fr CS, there are so many other things um surgeons can do to be recognized as um uh trainers. Um If you look at the GNC criteria of um you know how to be a trainer, you know, you could be trainer at undergraduate level or post graduate level within the universities and local beanies. And that's important too. It all counts towards uh knowledge and experience. Um So please do look at that and make sure that you're um recognized trainer at workplace because that's really strong. It's a huge value when it comes to knowledge and experience of examining, I think to add to that the college does have some courses which would welcome SAS faculty um for instance, student Surgical Skills course, that sort of thing. So please do look at our website and look at our um our list of of potential faculty that you could join. Um Are there any more question there? Is there is one more, is the I Yes, there is another one here. Oh yeah, there's another OK, that we've got a few questions appearing now. Um So um there's one question which I'm not sure is perhaps the remit of this particular webinar, which is, is the Iraqi medical certificate recognized in the United Kingdom. I'm not quite sure what that relates to. And if that relates to sort of primary medical qualification, then I think the best person, best place to ask is the GMC. Um I think if that's what that question means, there's somebody else saying that they passed their MRC S five years ago. Congratulations. Can they apply? Well, I think that it seems to me from what Alex says that the criteria is eight years. So I think you may have to wait three years, but you can prepare as the meter says, if you can build up your educational portfolio, um you'll have more things to put on your application form. So perhaps now is the next three years is the time to prepare for that. There's another question here who's gentleman who I think it might be a gentleman who says I have eight years post MRC S Ent and the European Fellowship in a NT and now a substantive specialist near T, can I apply things? And I think the answer is yes, is it not Alex? Because he's eight years post MRC S Ent. So there we go. We've got one potential applicant already. So that's brilliant. And there's another interesting question here. Why is it eight years post MRC S where members of RCOG can become examiners just after three years. Um I, I'm going to ask Alex that in a minute, but I'm just gonna make a comment on that to say that um, we have two exams in surgery. One is the MRC S and one is the Fr CS and they are spaced apart. Um, and they, they, they examine different levels whereas I think there is really only one exam for our college isn there for um, our co so I wonder whether that's why it's slightly different for them and it's probably slightly more of an exit exam than ours is. But Alex, would you like to expand on that? I, II think the eight years was a, was a rough approximation of the time between passing MRC S and um, getting to, er, a, a consultant or even a substantive consultant poster through higher surgical training, er, and that was felt to, uh, you know, to act, I guess, as a proxy for, er, equivalent experience and, and, and knowledge and skills as a, as we had at the moment for the examination um with the requirement to have of consultants as examiners but uh e enabling er access to the role of examiner to people who hadn't necessarily chosen that route. Yes. And Alex, a question that I'm going to put that, I sort of know the answer to, but I'd like you to answer for the benefit of the audience. Um What about people who have not quite reached that level of, of time or experience and writing exam questions rather than being a physical examiner on the oy. So I think one of the most exciting developments that IC BSE has introduced over the last couple of years is an expansion of involvement in the question writing process to, to lots of people within the surgical community. Um So, so we have trainees who have relatively recently passed the MRC S themselves, who who contribute to um the question writing process for both um the, the part, a so single best answers and also the part B AY stations. So those people who are more senior than, than, than some of those involved in the question writing process currently, but are not yet eligible to become examiners themselves would absolutely be welcome to, you know, to help us increase our question banks. Thank you for that Alex. And I think for those that, that per person who asked the question before, who has 53 years to go before becoming a fully fledged examiner that will be the pathway in, in a way to start writing questions and becoming involved that way. Um There's another question here which I might direct to Venita or possibly Alex. Do they, do you have to be on the SAS contract to prove your senior position? Because there are significant numbers of locally employed doctors who might wish to apply, who would like to take that question and take them. So, um ESL EDS, locally employed surgeons can apply to be examiners as well. I think we are looking at more knowledge, skills and experience. So titles do not matter anymore. So if you can prove you have mcs, if you can prove you have 88 years of experience working as locally employed doctor because I think eight years, one of the reasons we chose was you are quite senior at your workplace. You are working almost independently having been close to threshold too. Um And at that point, you had developed enough um to do the examining and that is the time a training training takes from um passing MRC S to doing his uh their exit exams. So there are multiple reasons why we chose eight years. So if you have eight years work experience of working as locally employed doctors um and have your MRC Yes, you can apply. I think no one's going to stop anyone applying, I suppose at the end of the day, just bring this down to earth just a little bit every application is reviewed individually and they, you know, there's the potential for anybody to be with the right CV and right application form to be accepted. And there's also the potential for the occasional person to be rejected. And that even applies, believe it or not to people who are consultants. So you do have to have the right sort of portfolio in order to apply to become an examiner because of course you want to do your job well and have the right background and that's why. So it isn't just a case of you got the MRC S eight years ago, you can come and examine you. Do, you do have to have something else on your CV that, that demonstrates that you have an interest in education. Um and that you've kept it up um et cetera and it doesn't have to be qualifications, it can be what you do at work, et cetera. And we look at that on everyone's application, whether you're an SAS doctor, an led or a consultant. Um a few more questions coming. Now, it says, what are the other certificates required for an examiner such as training, the trainers name? Is that mandatory? It's not mandatory. I suppose that just reiterates a little bit of what I just said in that you just have to demonstrate a portfolio that is an educator's portfolio in order to be successful in, in becoming an examiner because it is in many respects, it is the assessment side of education, isn't it? Um, and I think, I think it would be unlikely if you'd done nothing in education that you'd be looked upon favorably in terms of become an examiner in your first application. If you go off and then do something in terms of education, no one's specifying what it is, but something that demonstrates your interest in education, then someone is more likely to look favorably on your application to become an examiner. Ok. Next question, if someone qualified in, in a specialty outside the UK practice as a consultant outside the UK, but came to the UK recently as an SAS doctor and cleared both the MRC S and Fr CS in less than eight years, would they still have to wait eight years, Alex? So the answer to that would be yes, I'm afraid. And partly it's because we want to see or IC BSE wants to see demonstrable er, understanding of the UK um surgical training context. Um and, and that's really important this exam er er plays a really important part in the UK surgical training program. And you know, lots of the criteria on the person's specification form relate to a commitment too. But also an understanding of that surgical training context and a length of time practicing within that was felt by IC BSE to be an important criterion in demonstrating that in practice. Thank you, Alex. And there's another question that's on similar lines. Um, if, what if you're eight years post MRC S, but four years have been spent in the UK and four years spent abroad working. But you're still eight years post MRC S. So I, so I would say that is a, a good example of, er, something that would be, er, reviewed more closely at application stage. I would certainly encourage that individual to submit an application, er, based on being eight years post MRC S and then it would be, er, you know, subject to further review. But, but one thing I would say about this review process, um you know, w we're presenting this as the English college. Um applications will to us to be part of our English College course of examiners. But, but our applications and any other applications from other colleges also get reviewed by IC BSE. So, er, whilst there's a little less, er, you know, certainty around answers to these questions um because the criteria is more, you know, a complex of nuance, now the decision making process will necessarily be consistent um between all applicants, between all colleges because it goes through that single pointer as the interc unit of ICB seen. Um And, and actually along those lines, the questions are coming actually sort of in sequence. Um if an application is rejected, is there any feedback from the panel on what the candidate needs to improve on for the future? Alex? Uh Yes, I think we're, we're still er in truth, we're early on in this process. So er to my knowledge, I don't know of any unsuccessful applicants who have, you know, requested feedback or required feedback or not or not be provided with feedback. But absolutely, I II think it's a reasonable expectation that if an applicant is rejected. Um there's some, some further information provided to the individual. And Fiona mentioned that on some occasion, consultant applicants um get rejected. And I do know on those occasions, there has been feedback provided to the individual for the reasons. Thank you very much. And someone else has said, what courses of activities do you recommend to get before applying? As I've got a few years before applying? II think we've kind of covered that a little bit already. But for me to perhaps if you'd like to add to that, what what things do you suggest that people do before applying if they haven't quite got the eight years under their belts yet? So I would suggest you look at the curriculum trainees hall, you might and you might find there are certain courses which are advised uh for trainees to do the trainees. It's mandatory for trainees to do training the trainers otherwise they don't get to the exit exam. So I think it's only fair that we do training the trainer as well, doing the training, the trainers course also give you recognition as um a recognized trainer at workplace via Dries and GNC recognizes that as well. So I think um there is a huge number of courses you can do to be recognized at trainers and every little helps towards your um status as examiner for MRC S. Thank you. II think, I think that's very good advice for me to. Thank you. I think in addition to going on courses that other people set up, you could teach in your local institution if you set up teaching programs have feedback for it, um get involved in local activities that are involved in education, have some feedback from your supervisors or the people who are running the teaching programs in your locality and all those things add up. I think anything that's educationally orientated is helpful. OK, another question that I think I might ask Alex, some SAS surgeons are not on the on call rota but still function at a fairly senior level, delivering independent elective care. Would they be eligible? And it's, I think these questions come up specifically because you've given the broad brush of clinical activity as the criteria for of application. So, so again, I think that that is something that would, that would be reviewed at the application uh process or by through the application process. Um as the answer to lots of these questions, if people are fulfilling lots of criteria, but they, they, they are one or two that they feel are not being um demonstrated through their experience to date, I would suggest contact us at the address that was identified earlier on to identify this further. And I'd be very happy to have informal conversations with some people involved in the review process to give a bit more clarity. Thank you, Alex. And then another question um which has come up a few times, both directly and indirectly, we've said that it's eight years post MRC S. Is there a strict number of years post FRC S if you don't hold the MRC S? So I think the simple answer to that is no, um II, II suspect that a again, that is something that, that is going to be er refined as the process itself becomes more mature. I think there, there was a lot of time spent by the Short life working group, er debating whether it should be MRC S or Fr CS. That is the mandatory criterion. Um as I said, it was identified as being er MRC S so it could be sufficiently inclusive for all four surgical colleges, er clinical context. Um It, it, it might well be that um it, that will have to come out during the application process rather than rather than providing, you know, 100% clarity at this stage. I'm afraid, I suppose if you're eight years post core training level and you have the Fr CS, you probably have a reasonable chance of being considered. I'm I'm just saying that from my personal interpretation of the guidelines. Um OK, thank you are there any other questions, you know, while we are waiting for more questions, I can just touch on internat international certificates and education. I think where it comes from is the recent change of legislation by the GNC where they're recognizing international um, certificates or international educations. Now there are going to be lots of teething problems called GNC has not yet given the full list of what educational activities they will recognize for candidates to be registered or either on the general medical register or um as a specialist. But from examiner point of view, I think our level of um understanding is that we need MRC S and F and or Fr CS, right? Because that is the one kind of exam that um identifies the candidates, knowledge, skill and experience what we see in an examiner. And it has to be equivalent to the um our British um English um um education program compared to European or other international training programs because each country has its own training program. And MRC S and Fr CS gives a single standard level of education and experience to be an examiner. And hence, I think single marker for eligibility, MRC S and or Fr CS. And I think thank you for and I think to add to that, it must be remembered that the reason why we have the MRC S and the Fr CS examinations in the British Isles are that they are blueprinted to our training curricula. So the MRC S is blueprinted to our core training curriculum and the Fr CS is blueprinted to our higher training curricula and depending on which specialty you're in. And that is, I think that is probably why I CBI have stipulated that you need to have a certain amount of experience in the UK because then you understand the curriculum against which you're examining. So it's not just a standard of knowledge, it is actually blueprinted to the curriculum and that's quite important. And I think just to add to that feeling and I think that that's a really important point in the context of the, is it eight years post MRC S? And how many post Fr CSI think if you hold the Fr CS, but you've demonstrated that you have eight years experience in clinical practice in a UK context. That's something that WW would, could be looked at further during the application process. I think even if you don't specifically have eight years post Fr CS. Mm. Indeed, II think, I think, I think it would be real tough if you had to be eight years. Post F ri have to say. Um, and I think with, with the, with the, the person's specification, um A as is often the case, I think, you know, we're focusing on er, individual criteria here in terms of, you know, whether they are acceptable or not. It's really important that, that applicants look at all the criteria in the context of one another to get a really good idea of that level of knowledge, skills and experience required. And whether they think that they would be able to demonstrate that through the application process. OK. Are there any further questions? We give everybody another 30 seconds? Then I think most people have asked what they wish to ask. I can also illustrate here, Fiona is that um if um any of the sa surgeons um that they work, if the workplace is affiliated with any of the medical schools, the medical schools give lots of opportunities to be um involved in education. And that can be a different levels of being a mole lead for or a year lead in one of the years or as a, a examiner um or an examiner as such even for the returns um or the mock exam. So there are lots of opportunities by the university that can be used because the reason being is it's important to get involved in education because then you know the how education system works, how to school candidates. What are the different criterias of assessing a candidate? If someone has done PD cert in education or MS in education, that is another bonus point in your application. So look at the opportunities within education, there are lots um the universities can offer and and another thing is join ISP because I SCP also gives you lots of guidance on what recognizes you as an individual within surgical fields with different uh titles you may hold whether you are an examiner or you're educational supervisor or clinical supervisor. So it's kind of using all the college resources and you might find there are lots and lots of resources which we have not utilized. In addition, we have now professional passport, which trainees use and now they have, we have access to those professional passports as ss surgeons as well. So it would be nice to look at those professional passports to see. Do you have a gap in your application? So don't lose any opportunity to say, what do I need to do? Because these resources have lots of information and lots of advice. And if anyone wants more information, more advice, they can always contact either someone at the examination group, what um Alex had kindly given the email address for or they can contact the SAS forum cause and you can have 1 to 1 conversation with one of us that we can guide you and put in the right direction. So it is a question of just utilizing and the resources given by the college don't just depend on what you know, as a person that you need to do as an examiner, there's lots of help out there. So please do use it and make yourself visible, visible in our college life. Yes, indeed. Please. Please feel free to join the SAS forum. It is a thriving community and the more the merrier. Um Venita has led it very well. Um And uh I think it's um it's, it's been a driving force and in fact, Vanita has been a driving force pushing through this change to allow SAS examiners, SAS, doctors, surgeons to become examiners for the interc mrcs examination. So we'll credit to Vanita for that and that's because she sat on and chaired our SAS Forum. So, thank you. Thank you. And I think probably we, and, and just add, we do have um positions open for recruitment in the SAS forum. Adverts are out there. Uh Do look at the SAS forum web page and the the applications are still coming and we still welcome many applications. I think closing date is end of January. Do join us and even the chat position is open because I'm finishing my tenure very soon. So I'm hoping that we will have much more um stronger membership um with new vision, new inspiration and new ideas. Thank you. Thank you, Vanita. Um So I just asked the panel if they have any last comments to make Alex. Do you have any last comments to make? I think just to reiterate the point that we as the English College and I as a director exams, I'm really excited about this new development and the eligibility criteria for the MRC S for all the reasons you've said previously f and I think that this represents really positive progress for us as a college and for the exam as well. And, and in response to a lot of the quite specific queries regarding criteria, I would encourage people to, to, to, to engage with me or the department. More generally, if you're not sure whether your knowledge, skills experience uh are um er sufficient at this stage, um reach out to us and, and I'd be very happy to provide further guidance. Thank you very much, Alex Veneto. Any last comments? No, I just thank you for being here for listening to us for asking us question because this is what we want. We want our members and fellows or even those who are not members and fellows to ask college what we can do for you or what we are doing for you. So please join the forum. Even if you decide not to join the forum, do communicate with us, send us emails, come and visit the college, meet us in person and uh thank you for all your support because without you, the college won't exist. So um we do rely on you and we do depend on you. Thank you very much everyone. And thank you to Fiona and Alex uh for your very kind um presence and explaining the processes. And many thanks to Jane Antonio and um Phoebe for arranging this webinar because behind the scenes, lots of work goes on. They don't always get seen. So, thank you very much everyone and thank you to the audience here as well. So, thank you. And I just like to reiterate what Venita has said to me, the college is not the building in Lincoln's Infield. The college is all of the surgeons who are members and fellows, all of the people who are not quite members and fellows yet because they're still sitting out exams and all the staff and that is a huge entity. It is not just a building in Lincoln Infield. So thank you everybody for listening today and I hope we've given you food for thought and we look forward to your applications coming in. So thank you very.