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Um, yeah, so my name is I'm uh the current Asset Innovation Meet, uh also are AC in Scotland and, or Research Fell with uh University of Ed. And so I II guess, you know, it is sometimes viewed as, as sort of more niche thing. It is something that is relevant to, to all different specialties that you're sort of looking to be a part of, you do need to engage with research, even if you don't want to, you know, necessarily be a sort of academic commission or academic surgeon. Um, and, you know, for those who are, who are still sort of undecided or just are interested to know what the sort of pathway looks like. Um I'll just try and outline some of this because it is often very, very opaque and, you know, it's, it's a bit unclear about how people got involved or, or what that pathway is supposed to look like anything. And so let's just talk about that and hopefully it becomes a bit clearer. And so I thought I'd start with how I got into research and this is, you know, not meant to be reflective of, um, you know, what people should be doing. There's no typical pathway and, you know, it's, it's, you can engage with research without becoming a, a sort of actual academic as well. And so I sort of, um, in the summer after first year of uni, I sort of dip my toe into research. And so I did a research project in urology. Um, and to be honest, it was, it was not a good experience and I was basically stuck in a dark room for um you know, basically like 9 to 5 the whole summer. Well, it was lovely and sunny outside and it basically, you know, and eventually, like this basically wasn't very good vision either kind of thing and, and essentially just put me off for, for a good few years kind of thing. So at that point, you know, I took my to was like, oh, this isn't for me and, and I was going to, you know, essentially put that to the side and I subsequently did an integrated degree. So I did that in epidemiology and, and was doing stuff around global health and respiratory disease and, and got a wee bit of data science as part of that and that kind of thing. Um And that actually really sort of re sparked my interest in research and I was like, oh, it didn't have to be like that first project, you could do some more interesting engaging stuff, you get that kind of thing. And so that kind of part of interest for me. And as I sort of progressed to med school, I sort of, you know, many people in university have an experimental phase but might just happen to actually be in research. And so I got involved with a general surgeon and, and was able to use data signs as part of that to be able to bring that additional interest into general surgery. And also got involved in some research stuff with and which some of you may be familiar with. And I was still doing some stuff in respiratory and got the health that, you know, it was sort of, you know, I was, I was trying different things to see what I enjoyed. Um, you know, following on from that sort of going into later med school and foundation, I sort of realized that general surgery was actually something that, that I was, I was predominantly interested in and, and, you know, want to sort of pursue that further and, and sort of essentially kind of dropped the respiratory side of things and tried to integrate some of that global health interest into that as well. And so kind of trying to just sort of focus on what I was interested into something that was, you know, within the special I end up wanting to do. Um, and, you know, eventually I've done a sort of phd in sort of surgical innovation and so have been developed interest in sort of what's called implementation science. So kind of put some research into practice and still do some research work in site. Um But the point of this isn't necessarily to be like you look how much research um I've done, I think there's some useful lessons as part of that. And so I think it's important just to realize that you don't need to pigeon hole yourself early. You don't have to have done, you know, general surgery or cardiothoracic or plastics from year one kind of thing. You can try a few things, you can explore a few things and, you know, I kind of dropped that respiratory side of things and because it essentially wasn't a clinical interest and, but there's still a lot of general research skills to learn. So, you know, don't feel that doing a project that's not in your particular specialty is going to disadvantage you, you can still use those skills and research can also be a great way to just explore sort of different clinical. So you could try a few things, you can try a few different projects in different surgical especially and just see, see if you like the feel of it, see if you, you find that the top sort of engaging and, and it probably was in the neck, but probably, you know, I said I was interested in surgery before. But, you know, I guess this sort of being involved in that sort of general surgery project probably sparked that interest in general surgery more than, uh, more than anything or, or help me start focusing specifically something I want to sort of pursue. And probably the last thing is that, you know, don't like one bad experience. So, my projects in urology and don't let that put you off and, you know, it's, you know, just because one project doesn't work out doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that you're sort of not quite out to be an academic or, or sort of to do research and that kind of thing, you know, try a couple of things that you may end up thinking that, you know, you might do a lab project and actually realize you don't like lab projects, you might do a, a exercise project and realize, you know, actually that's something you really enjoy doing. So try a few things, there's usually something for everyone and so we can talk more generally about, I guess, what is an academic surgeon? And so there's a whole host of things. So again, there is something for everyone and, you know, you can do quality important interviewing people. If you don't like data stuff, you can be doing, you know, lab stuff, you can be doing genomics and genetics, you can be, you know, developing devices and that kind of thing and you can be teaching medical students. And so there's a whole host of things out there and that you can do. So it's really, really a broad thing and it's not just that sort of traditional being in the lab stuff and which be honest I would personally hate and, and there's a host of things that actually over the years have been actually developed by medical students, um, and, and surgeons and things like insulin and, and all that, you know, a ton of other stuff out there. And so, uh, surgery has a very sort of big for actually being innovated and pushing the boundaries of, um, research and, and that kind of thing and, and bringing things in it. So, um, you're in, you're in good company with it. Um, so people are sort of considering, you know, it is, is academic surgeries, is that something for them? I guess the sort of good part. So it is, you know, one of the big things is ultimately sort of patient benefit, even if it's not this sort of immediate, you know, a patient comes in sick, you do a procedure, they get better kind of thing and you are, you know, trying to understand what is the best procedure for a patient. And how do you, how do you evidence that? How do you demonstrate that? Actually this is something we should do for patients. And, you know, it's, uh, there's, there's a few cohost of patient benefits that could come from it, even if it is a bit less sort of tangible sort of impacts and things have and as I said, there's something to everyone out there. So, you know, I respect to you of your interest, there'll be something that you could sort of probably find engaging if you can find it um provides a bit of clinical flexibility. So particularly once you get um to sort of a CF or, or clinical lecture type stages and you, you usually have some, some formal research time as part of that. Um And that offers a bit of um more flexibility around things depending on when your research time is and that stuff and, and it does sort of add variety. You might be traveling as part of it, you might be doing, you know, a procedure one day, you might be flying to our next, next day, you might be sitting down and writing a paper the following day kind of thing. And so it's all just, you know, I think about varieties of stuff you do and, and it can be exciting sometimes and can be very exciting when you get your first paper when you, when you're able to share your work and you get some really good feedback on it and that kind of stuff. So it is sort of a really positive thing sometimes and the sort of downsides and it is sort of to a certain extent location dependent sometimes. And so you can usually get, you know, obviously training in surgery everywhere depending on your particular special and interest as part of that. But um, research, it often is more sort of, you know, tens of what you want to do that in certain places, specialists in certain things. So if you want to do some really, you know, precise, you know, genomics work and that kind of thing, there's probably only certain places that do that as part of the UK and depending on what your interest is. So you may need to sort of try and focus down and try and get a placement in a certain location and to be able to sort of maybe pursue that interest further and can be a lot of rejections. So, grants and papers and presentations, that kind of think it's always a bit gutting. And when you, you've done a lot of work and effort to, to do something and then, you know, someone turns here and says, we don't think that's good enough. And often I would say that's, you know, not always the case and should be taken as negative in the sense of, you know, someone might just not have understood it or they might not have um really appreciated the work you've done, you can submit it elsewhere and, you know, often you, you might actually get an acceptance and some, one person turns around and says, it's awful, one person turns around and says it's great. It happens and it's something that doesn't follow shift patterns is something that's important to kind of work life balance. In the sense of, you know, it's, it should be a sort of thing when you're doing it. But, um, often if there's a, a grant deadline or you need to get a, a paper resubmitted and that kind of thing, you might be working and, you know, maybe that's just my time management. But, um, you know, often that might be the case and, and it is sort of difficult to perhaps balance that with your clinical demands as well. And that, you know, you're, you're working, you know, night shifts and you've got abstract and you submitted by the end of the week and you can maybe wake up a wee bit early and work on that. Um you know, just for your night shift thereafter and it's, it's can be difficult just balancing all of those. Um you know, there are certainly added costs. So it is, you know, going to all these conferences or, or trying to submit um work to different places and it does add costs to, to what you're doing, particularly if you don't have any additional funding and as part of it to kind of go to these places. So, um you know, if, if you're wanting to kind of go to that national conference, um and, you know, sometimes it might be out of your pocket, um which is a really, really poor thing when it comes to sort of accessibility to, to a lot of research things. And I think a big concern. Some sometimes and II think it's sort of sometimes overblown as well but sometimes some negative attitudes. Um, you know, so that you're sort of like a part time surgeon or you're, you're, um, you know, not taking 100% of, of a, a sort of clinical job and that kind of stuff and I haven't really experienced that but II kind of, I mean, we're a sort of academic, you know, tertiary center and that kind of thing. So II think those attitudes are out there but um you know, II think it's, it's probably a bit misguided and, and, you know, I think most people, it's, it's, it's fine, but, you know, those attitudes do exist. And so just talk about a academic career path more in general. And so the kind of broad, you know, formal outline of things, this is more for sort of England and Wales um is that you, you essentially have some academic training as part of me, whether it's in degrees or, or other things and sort of research projects as part of medical school. You can do foundation programs so you can do um s ap so especially the foundation program and then in England, Wales might do a, a clinical fellowship. And so that's for three years after a foundation usually. And you do, you do that and you have part time research, part time clinical training and, and that's usually followed by a phd or or MD, not always. Um And then the sort of latter parts are of equivalent to a training is the sort of clinical like ship side of things where again you have part time clinical, part time research that's leaning you towards a completion of um surgical training. Uh And then there's other stuff on there that I'll not go too much detail, but you can do lecture stuff you can do. Um there's different fellowships, you can apply for that sort of fun research and active time. Um And uh you know, eventually some, some people not always end up being uh professionals and that kind of stuff and that sets out a very sort of linear pathway and, and actually, I'd say it's more like this. So you, you've got the sort of summit of where you want to be in terms of doing a kind of a and actually, you've got a huge number of pathways to actually get there. And so some people get in and out so you can, you can start maybe start doing academic foundation. And so it s ap and some people continue doing that all the way through. So do that very linear pathway and some people start doing clinical clinical, full time clinical training. So you do um you know, just, just the regular foundation program and later on decide actually, you know, I've developed a research interest. I want to pursue that. I want to do an ACF I want to do a phd, you know, later on in my cle training and some people only do that phd and then just go back in and, and, you know, just want that experience and then sort of continue with clinical training without doing a clinical. And some people just, you know, they don't do any, hard to be, don't do any form training, but they just do research and teaching in, in their various times, they might do a master's to, to sort of develop their, their education side of things and so on. So it's, uh, you know, don't feel you have to do to get on the active training pathway. You know, if you don't do that, you can still do it if you want to and it's not the be all and end all and, and actually doing that s ap doesn't guarantee that you will continue on the academic pathway. You know, sometimes you do that and actually you can't get up an ACF afterwards. Sometimes you do that and decide, actually, I really don't want to do this anymore. You know, I'd rather just pursue full time clinical. And so, you know, there are a ton of athletes out there. Um so just broadly to outline how things work and in a different way. And so certainly in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, I believe, um basically at the sort of national selection stage and so or platform and you can either apply to do a course surgery training post or you can apply to an ACF POST. Um, and that AF post usually has about 75% clinical and 25% research time. And the idea is that you, you, you usually use that research time to build an application towards, uh, sort of, um, so a CS are usually, or, or sometimes run through. So you should sort of end up, you, you take some time to do a sort of PT and you come back in and you should, you know, in the, if you're passing everything else and, and you know, getting through your, your CS and you should end up and then becoming a sort of academic clinical leadership, um which is at least in, in England and Wales and 5050 clinical to academic time. Um But certainly if you go down and start of course surgery training pathway and then become a surgical registrar, so become sort of ST three, you can also potentially apply to ACLS. So again, not having done an ACF doesn't mean you're not, it doesn't, I mean that you can't do a clinical election in future and it then becomes, I think either you can nationally apply to that or I think there are some local posts. So kind of universities deciding who, who gets the ACLS. And so there are pathways, you know, after that, even if you go into just pure poor surgery training, uh there's lots of pathways in England and Wales to still do a active training in the future. And difference in Scotland is something that I've found a bit frustrating, but essentially no equivalent to, uh, a CF in Scotland. Essentially, you have to apply to do surgery training and, and eventually, once you get a national training number and you can then apply to um, essentially a clinical posts. Um and those are um not a national process. You have to apply to the union essentially. And there's some which are 80% clinical and 20% academic. There's some which are 5050. Um you know, it depends what's funding your time. Um Essentially just to highlight that difference that, you know, for those who might be interested in doing a training in Scotland, it is just, you know, you need to go through the core training uh routes to be able to do. So, um last thing I just mentioned about this sort of phds and, and that kind of thing and they are actually surprisingly common in, in surgery or maybe not surprising, but um certainly much more common than um other specialties, even for those who, who aren't choosing to, to do academia and they can be done essentially at any stage. So II did mine for post I two. But essentially if you do them in any time through your training, some people do them in med school even. And uh I don't know how I feel about that, but that's, that's you people can do that. Um But mostly doing them sort of in training at some point and they are something that needs funding. So N NIH R is something that funds a lot of phds in England and Wales. Um But there are other ones out there, you know, Medical Research Council, MRC and in Scotland, there's the Chief Science Office, uh which is the equivalent to NHR in Scotland and then there's grants as well, but sometimes on these, um so ideally trying to aim for one that has uh no mandated clinical commitments and just so you are able to sort of focus on what you're doing. Um And you know, even if you do have that you can still do extra clinical stuff if you want, depending on discussion with your surprise and that kind of thing. And, you know, it's, it allows you to sort of focus down on, on doing research and getting the most out of it rather than being distracted trying to do, you know, a million things as well. Uh So I'll just finish with how you get involved. So as I say, you know, even if you are, you know, uh towards the end of med school or in foundation and you're thinking, oh, like everyone else has done so much work for now, you know, or I don't know how to get involved in the thing and it's definitely never too late. Um You know, at the most basic level, it's just sort of seeing what's going on around you. And it does also help to be in sort of a tertiary center or an academic unit. And, but there should be, you know, there will be certainly audit work going on the road and there will often be some research work with clinical trials that are ongoing locally that you might be able to sort of get involved in. And, you know, let's keep an eye out for issues. You know, what are the things that are frustrating your day to day basis? What things are confusing? Why are people choosing, you know, this technique over another technique or surgical procedure? And you know, what's the evidence behind that, you know, you might find out there's not and it might be worthwhile, you know, actually doing a study to, to actually work out, you know, what, what is the evidence to suggest that this one's better than another one? And so there's a lot of definitely a great way to the idea is, is your frustrations and the things that confuses you. And because you'd be surprised how many, many people are confused about that as well. Um And there's also a class of research projects that are ongoing, you, there's sort of great ways to kind of just get your toe in and just see if kind of broad research experiences is good for you if you've not had much before. And I'll talk about that in a second. Um And uh also just trying to reach out, reach out to sort of other trainees consultants who have an academic interest. So, um you know, someone published something recently a new unit that you might um might be able to sort of chat to them about, you know, ask if you've got anything else ongoing. Um, you know, again, it helps being in academic units, but there is a lot of people doing some great work in um sort of less traditionally academic units. So definitely, you know, ask around and see who's doing well and try and get involved. And as I say, there's, there's lots of research classes out there, I'll not sort of labor the point but, um, you know, essentially uh irrespective where you are, there was something on that you can get involved in and just keep an eye out and ask about. Uh and I'll just sort of finish up um on a couple of sides here, just sort of emphasizing, you know, some, some tips um for research as well. So kind of just making sure you're focusing in on um patients and just sort of emphasizing that, that, you know, they, they are the core of what you do. So, you know, yes, we should be doing research because we enjoy it because, um, you know, it's, it's something that we enjoy doing, but ultimately you're doing it to benefit patients and especially always be what you're, you're sort of focusing on um be selected. So particularly once you start getting involved in research, people will ask and people know that they will ask you to do a lot and it's just um being selective and not spreading yourself too thin with that and trying to sort of carbon niche. So, so happy there that you are, um but not feeling you need to do that too soon and not feeling you have to be too niche with it kind of thing. Um But try and try to develop an area that you're sort of um focusing on kind of thing because that allows you to sort of have AU P and as I say, sort of keeping your eyes and your open for, for what's going on and both for research ideas and also um projects going on, you can be involved in um being a completer. So I think that sort of, one of the most frustrating things is both as, you know, something starting out and, and someone who something supervises is, you know, is really frustrating when you do a lot of work for something and, and then it ends up that, you know, for every reason it doesn't go anywhere and you feel like all that work is being wasted. And so, you know, you can argue it's not wasted because you've still developed lots of skills and knowledge and insight and that kind of thing. But you kind of want to get like a presentation somewhere, if you want to try and publish somewhere, that kind of thing, try and get an output from what you do and a team. So, um you know, I think there's the tradition of, of research, research and acting, being very sort of protectionist and very sort of like, you know, sharp elbows and that kind of stuff. But actually, you know, more and more it's about um teamwork and um you know, working together on bigger projects to do better things. And so definitely collaboration is a new competition and, and also, you know, enjoying it and, you know, you don't have to get involved in research. If you don't want to, like, you need to get involved to a certain extent, you need to understand that be able to interpret research. But um you know, you don't need to be leading research projects and that's not something you're, you're interested in. And so you don't feel pressured, um ultimately enjoy it. So I've met some really, really great friends as far as um research and academic stuff and, and you do sometimes end up in uh some silly situations. So trying to make a sort of a narrow plot and then ending up making money that just looks like a bunch of penises, which is great for just not really great for what I was trying to accomplish with it. Um And uh ultimately remembering, you know, why we do it. So, you know, trying to stop patients dying, improving cancer outcomes and, you know, trying to understand what their new intervention is going to reduce morbidity from, you know, infection, trying to understand, you know, different molecular pathways to try to develop new immunotherapies. So, and it's, it's as a trying to keep, you know, why we're doing this as, as part of it. And so, uh to summarize me, you know, as I say, a surgery, there's something for everyone. Um depending on your interests, you can be an educator, you can be an engineer, you can be a scientist. You know, there's, there's tons of things out there and lots of advantage and disadvantages. So, you know, it's, it's making sure the right decision for you and making sure, uh you know, certainly, as I say, everyone needs to be involved in research. Everyone should be offering patients the opportunity to be involved in research. Um But you, you don't need to be doing that yourself if you don't want to be. Um But if you want to find you a good team, find you a good mentor and you'll be very well set up. Um uh anyone interested in research and innovation stuff. And we do have uh next weekend we've got our Innovation Summit and which some of you may have a accepted to otherwise it would be a great, um We've got a great program of what's really engaging speech speakers about innovation and research and, and that definitely has come along to so. Thanks very much. Wow. Thank you very much for taking the time. Kenny. Very thorough. Very. I'm sure that everyone here is gonna go along with it and understand what, what they need to do going forwards, getting involved in research. Next steps. I must admit I've never seen a penis plot in my life. I'm sure the urologists love it. Um No, that was first for me. Um, just for the sake of time. Can you, are you happy to address any answers in the chat? If that's all right.