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Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. I'll just give it a couple more minutes for a few more people to join in and then we'll get started. Okay, why don't we get started? And more people will join in as we carry on. So my name is Neil Chatterjee and I'm the lead for this introduction to research webinar series. And joining me today is our guest speaker, Jazz Delai. Unfortunately, Michelle couldn't make it as she's unwell, but that's all right, we'll carry on. So some of the learning objectives, this this talk should cover a few of the points in our previous talks as well and just concisely or quite quickly, I would say summarize some of the realities of research. So you can appreciate the life of someone doing research and some of the challenges and benefits doing research. Now, all of you might not have a full career based solely on research, but a lot of the elements will still be relevant to you. Um Yeah. So why do we care is because if you want, if you're going to get started and research, it's important for you to know what it's all about because there, there are a lot of positives which I'm sure people are already generally aware of, but there's quite a few negatives which I don't think get talked about enough. And that's what we're here to hopefully convey to all of you, which will allow you to make a more informed decision on whether research is for you and whether you want to carry on with the path you've chosen. So if you've joined our previous webinars, you know, I'm gonna start with a little mental meter quiz. So let me just open that up and then we can continue on with the presentation. So please join up on mental meter using that code showing up there. I'll wait for a couple of minutes for people to join in. They'll be easy questions, guys, I promise join up on the thing and we'll get started in a minute or so. Okay. All right, let's get started. Oops, I kind of gave it away there. Have I written all the answers on the screen? Well, I guess that's an easy one to start with them. Okay. And we'll go into the next one. Quite an important question actually, which we'll talk about a bit more as well. Yeah, good work sometimes. And we'll talk a little bit more about why as well and when it cannot be a 9 to 5 job, when things get more challenging. Okay. So we'll start off with some of the challenges just because you want to end on a positive note. Um All right. So just to start off with research encompasses a whole variety of things like phds Masters and just working as a researcher or part time as a researcher and a clinician together. But regardless of what type of research are doing, it's an absolutely huge amount of work, which I think a lot of people don't realize because you have to think of a lot of different things and think about things which don't exist, which is what makes it quite difficult because you have to kind of imagine what may or may not happen in an experiment and plan for all the possible alternatives that might occur because otherwise you'll hit a stop and that's impossible in the research world because you'll just get stuck. Just you want to talk a little bit about why it's such a massive amount of work to carry out when you're doing research. Yeah. So you have your project, let's say it is planned for three years and you have your experiment A and then it works and you go on to experiment B and C and C might be the fancy thing. That kind of, if you get C done, it's a done deal for your phd, you know, no matter what your results are, you'll be looking really good. Um But often people get stuck at A and B before they get to the big snazzy end door uh at the end of the project. So when you get, when you get stuck at part B or part A is trying to resolve it. And this can be the tricky bit because sometimes you're limited by lab resources, um lab expertise. And sometimes you just have to write, we couldn't progress any further and then you have to kind of go on like a tangent and then that becomes your sub, like your part C of your project. So it happened to me where things weren't working well and part B to go into part C. So we just scrapped, see and just made part be a very big chunky part of my project, which is completely fine, but it's just is trying to work out how to get solutions to get to what you want to do and sometimes just have to circumnavigate around that which you don't really foresee before you're planning. Yeah, because I think when people go into research, they imagine sort of, oh I want to show this does this, but they don't realize how much preparation is required to do that. There's weeks and months of preparation that goes into just getting ready for a single experiment. And when you get stuck on just the preparation, but it can be quite frustrating because you know, you're really cool experiment later on is going to be like mind blowing. But and it's the preparation, which is a menial boring task. And then if you get stuck there it's extremely frustrating and it sort of piles up the amount of work you have to do and how much circumnavigating and how much, um, compromising you have to do with your own project, which I at least wasn't aware of at all when I came into research. So it was quite a shock for me when I came in and realized how much more work it actually is than you think it is. Okay. Um And then there's ambiguity in the literature. So I'm sure a lot of you already aware that all are pretty much most research should be based on something that's already in the literature, but you're just building upon it. Research is all about progression, but literature isn't always faithful. Um When people publish papers, we'll, we'll talk about it a little more. It's in 0.7, there's a constant need to apply for funding and therefore there's a constant pressure to publish. So quite more often than not, unfortunately, people publish poor results or false results or they don't give you the entire story. So if you're the person, they're reading this paper, trying to repeat their methodology for your own experiment and absolutely nothing works. You have no idea why because according to the paper, the method works perfectly. Now that happened to me in the first six months of my phd and I had to scrap pretty much half of what I had planned just because the papers didn't have the right information and people pick and choose what to put in to make themselves look better, which is not the best, not, not, not a good way at all to do research just because of the impact it has on other people. So you can again make it quite frustrating to carry out any form of research due to that. Did that ever happen to you jazz? But the research which just lies. Yes. So I think quite a few projects work where you, you kind of take something for research from publications and tested yourself just to check that actually the way you're conducting experiments are correct because the principle is that if you can replicate results, either results are correct or your technique is good. So that was kind of the basis where I started. And um yeah, I wasn't matching results of publications. And so I've retested, I change solutions or change compounds, born new one thinking impurities. Um So there's quite a few problems solving. We did. Um And eventually we just found actually the paper just didn't test to the extremes that we were testing in uh rather than in or working. It's just that we found this weird paradoxical effect that, that the paper originally were looking at wasn't reporting because they just didn't test in that environment. So sometimes you can spend, you know, it was spending a good 23 months before read. I was actually this, this wasn't an anomaly, this actually was meant to be happening. So it does happen, it does happen. But also it's, it's quite good because it's quite a lot to talk about. So when I got to my thesis and start writing about things we observed that was similar but different. At the same time, it does build up a good chunk and it kind of opens up a lot and analytical skills which is what uh the fibers will, will be interested in. Yeah. So just to reiterate, there just is talking a little bit more about thesis like masters and phd theses where a lot of things that go wrong or alternate avenues can be a massive chunk of your discussion at the end. If you're a postdoctoral uh researcher, so perhaps a clinician doing research as a part time uh as a side project to your clinical work, then it's a little bit more difficult because in actual papers you publish, you don't talk about the things that went wrong or the avenues you have to navigate around, you talk about what worked and why it worked. So it, there's a pro and con to that in itself. OK. Moving on to the next one, it can be very isolating, which I don't think people realize because when you go meet a lab, they're all happy and bubbly and they want to give you the best um picture of the lab. But then you get there and you're doing your project. No one else is doing your project. No one else knows anything about your project. So no one can help you really. Besides showing you a specific technique to do. Okay, I can show you how to do a PCR, but no one can help you beyond that because they have no insight into your project which can make it quite difficult and isolating because you have minimal support and guidance. And as a postdoctoral researcher, that's even more true because you don't have a supervisor to rely on who knows the general gist. But yeah, as a phd student, you have a bit more guidance, but it can still be very difficult because no one really knows the specifics because research is meant to be quite an original thing. So, you know, your project more than anyone in the world knows your project, which is why there's, it automatically leads to minimal support. I've mentioned odd hours there which can make it lonely because some people tend to work very early or very late and jazz is one of those people, but, and he can probably talk a bit more about that. Yeah. So um this is probably applied to like the clinicians in here. So I was working as a pharmacist whilst I was doing my phd. So I would often do shifts during the daytime. Uh And my supervisor is really good. He's quite relaxing that sense of he didn't really mind what hours you did or when you did them, um, because we would do regular updates and meetings and he'll just checking your progress because he knows roughly, you know, if things are going well or not going well, there's about, there's a reasonable amount of work you should be doing. So I was doing quite weird timing. So sometimes I'd come in, you know, at seven o'clock at night and then leave at two AM or like are coming on weekends quite regularly. And for me, that was fine cause I don't really mind because I sometimes I would prefer to work during the daytime or I do like late shifts sometimes as well, like in pharmacy. So for me, it's quite flexible and for people that wanna continue with GM see registration and want to be doctors on a weekend to do locum shifts, that's quite nice thing if you got a cooperative supervisor because unless you're doing work which involves patient's such as, you know, I think clinical psychology often do, um, volunteers would have to do surveys and questionnaires and also they're not going to come in at two AM in the nighttime. But um, so there's some restrictions on those kind of um phds. However, most ones where they're wet lab or if it's a master's project, chances are you can have that flexibility. And as long as you're doing roughly two hours that you're expected to do, there seems to be this uh fluidity in your work plan. Yeah. So I would also, sometimes you're also in the lonely isolating venue. You're kind of at the mercy of your experiments because sometimes you have to keep your cells alive or you have to do things at certain times, you end up sometimes working. Very strange. Like I only did this twice or thrice, but I would, I work, I think from like six AM to three AM um on a few days. And it's just because of the nature of the work. So, although it doesn't happen, often odd hours sometimes can be a bit of a problem. But the main issue there is the lack of support and guidance available in a lot of labs. The next thing we really want to talk about and hammer home is how repetitive research really is. I'm sure when you've read papers, when people read papers, they love looking for the end number of things that end number is a pain to achieve just because of how boring it gets, trying to repeat experiments to minimum three times, but 6, 12 times for some types of experiments which need higher sensitivity and you essentially repeat the same technique over and over and over across your entire research period. I think I probably did about 3000 pcrs over the three years. Um I did my phd in and there's other techniques which also become repetitive and it's just because you have to get more end numbers for experiments and it can be actually quite d motivating when week after week after, after a week you go in to do exactly the same thing. And I don't mean the same job in a clinical sense, like going, working the ward. I mean, you were taking the same liquid from the same tube into another tube, week upon a week for no new results for exactly the same results. Um, so it can be very repetitive and very boring, I think just did a few experiments repeatedly for like a year. The same thing. Yeah. So new and I required similar. So we worked in different labs but we shared some uh communal equipment the same and, you know, it's getting repetitive when you know what the other person's doing in the hood, you know? Okay. Are you doing this today? And you're like, right? OK. Are you doing this tomorrow then? Because you're doing this today and you kind of know each other's patterns because the, the protocol is the same. It's just you're still stuck on the same protocol, but you have to do it so many times. Um So even like when it's a, a low end number, like end of 10, that's, you know, 5 to 10 is generally low number. But in some experiments that's deemed really good because of either how difficult it is to get that number or B is so reliable that actually don't need that much. I have uh that can still be quite difficult. So even in my head, I thought, oh, in the 10 is fine. You know, like I can get one in one day, 10 days, happy days. But so many things can go wrong and so many things might not work out. The end of 10. You can come, come two months worth of work and equally people which have high end numbers you might think. Oh, that, that's gonna take forever. But it might be so high through per that they can have end of 20 or 30 because it just spits out like calcium imaging, it just spits out and it's, it's a bit more rapid. I find when people do it so you can have higher numbers or achieve it much quicker. Whereas well knew when I was doing PCR work can be very long tedious and most days is failures, to be honest. Yeah, it's a lot. I think that brings us very nicely on to the next point when it's quite demoralising. When an experiment you've been planning for months, you get to that final bid and then it doesn't work for no reason. And we touched on this to do with ambiguity in the literature and perhaps your premises were wrong and that's why it didn't work. But 90% of the times it doesn't work because, and you have no idea why it didn't work just because the cells weren't happy. No one even knows what that really means. Um, your cells might not have been happy. You might have put the liquid in the wrong place and not mixed it enough. And it's things that you can't control but you should, but you can't control it. And it's extremely demoralized because you can't work out what to do differently the next time to make it work. And then you want, then you still have to get your end numbers. So you're repeating a failed experiment 10 times which can sort of take it. It really does take its toll on you on how difficult it can be doing that. And I think something I haven't written on here, but it's quite important is just was talking about different techniques. Different people do and they can have different levels of ease and different throughput. So how much data you get out of it. There's a lot of comparison between people doing research. You might be comparing yourself to someone else in a lab, someone who's written a paper on a similar topic. And it's really that can be demoralizing and negative in yourself as well because you simply can't compare there in a different lab. Although they've written a protocol, they might not have actually done that. A lot of protocols are written copy pasted. So people might not have changed things and they might not be doing exactly the same method which can, you simply can't compare and it's natural to compare but and very difficult not to. So that lends itself to being more demoralizing as well and it affects your mental health as I'll talk about a little bit later. You want to add anything about long term experiments failing jazz? Okay, I think you touched. Okay, perfect. Then let's move on to mental health. All these negative things definitely do impact on your mental health. And it's quite hard when we were talking about minimal support and guidance. So who do you go to for support? And I actually, I think this is going to be a bit controversial, but I wouldn't recommend really going to your supervisor or your sort of your parents and things like that for, for this type of, for the effect it has on your mental health because you'll be recommended immediately for canceling or CBT. And it's much quicker if you just go and refer yourself or go get counseling from university from your trust just in the first place because it's much nicer to talk to someone who has experience, talking to people with similar problems that you do. Whereas other people may not completely understand um friends can be quite beneficial, especially if they know you quite well and know what you're going through. But I would say counseling or CBT, something like that is really important. And I don't think it's explained enough when you do research. Um whereas in a lot of other fields, they make it quite obvious that this, that option or that services available, they don't tend to do that as much in research. Um And the last bit we'll talk about in the negatives. I know it's been quite negative so far, but the constant need to apply for more funding. I don't know how much people here know about how you get money to do research. It's, you apply for a grant. The grant provides your salary and your consumable fund and usually money for other researchers as part of your team who will do other bits of the project. But you need to keep reapplying for funding every three years because funding only lasts about three or four years. So during that three years, if you don't manage to produce any important publications, you won't be able to get a new grant after and then you're kind of stuck. You have no, you have no salary, you're essentially unemployed. So it's quite an unstable job and you're always having to think about what you're going to be doing in the future, whether you'll okay? Can I, can I put a down payment for this house? Now? Will I have money in the future? It's always thinking about keeping one eye on the future because it's quite an unstable lifestyle. And it all depends on publications and that pressure to publish good papers is also 11 of the causes of the ambiguity in the literature like I was talking about earlier because people need to publish to get grants to survive. So it's kind of like a vicious cycle. Um, anything you want to have jobs. Yes. So that's, that is the harsh circle of, uh, like a post post doc because it's quite a few post dogs that don't even get three years. Sometimes it's a very short term two year grant, uh, attached to it because it's not a big funding body is linked to just a very small project. So, the grant is that okay? We expect you to get this result and we calculate, it's gonna take you, you know, a year and a half, two years. So you've moved to, you know, say Cambridge from London just to sit there for two years and you know, your funding is gonna run out in two years. And chances are that your P I probably won't get more funding from that body to continue it if you haven't really got anything at the end of it. So there is that, are you okay as a postdoc to be moving around because there is quite a lot of POSTOP positions around, but to stay in the same vicinity, that's quite difficult, especially if it's not like London where it's like a metropolitan with loads of universities. If you go into a place where it's just one or two unions like Manchester Liverpool or like Cambridge, Oxford, etcetera, the chances are if, if the lab isn't cash strapped, you know, it's, you will be moving around a lot. So it's a bit difficult to plan your future plan like lifestyle. If you have family commitments, it can be very difficult as a postdoc especially important that you get. Yeah, definitely completely agree with everything just said, I will mention for people who want to be clinical researchers. So being a clinician as well is I would refer you to our previous webinar on doing a degree during clinical training because we had an anesthetist who was talking about doing research and clinical work side by side. And he actually gets paid by the University by Imperial College London to do the research. So he has a little less dependent dependence on applying for grants. So there are positions like that available, but they're very minimal. And um I would not take that as the norm of the research environment but definitely go check that webinar out if you're interested in combining clinical work and research. OK, enough of all the negative, let's look at some of the positives of research. So it is extremely satisfying when an experiment you've been waiting for works really well and then publishing a paper about it. And I think jazz can talk about this more than I can about papers. Yeah. So the ideal one is that you get uh first source of paper, primary research, you know, it's the first groundbreaking thing and also impact factor. So again into a journal that has a good impact factor. So ideally you stay clear of anything with an impact act of less than two. And then anything above 10, you've kind of smashed it and you can brag about it for the whole life essentially. Um Failing that you can do idea which is a bit of a cheat was you can do a little review. Yeah. So if you haven't got much data, but you identify, actually I can do quite a lot of work on little review, which is quite good because you get publication out of it, you can talk about a lot of analytical skills. So you know, when you apply for jobs, I can talk about things like this, that's a good way to get your foot through the door. And also it gives you the experience of how to publish because you'll be going through the whole review of cycle. Luckily, I didn't have to do any amendment. So I had quite a nice review, but typically you'll get a review that says we don't like that graph and you have to defend it or you have to go away and then work on it. So it's quite nice to see how the process works. Um Maybe a long term planning. Um If anyone does end up becoming consultants and wants to go into clinical trials, this sort of stuff is like the basics of what you end up doing in the future in long run. So if you end up doing clinical trials and making extra cash from the sides and so on you, you wanna be able to do these things because that's kind of how you be publishing in the future to get your name out there, to get more sponsorships, to get organizations on your back. So if you can try and push and like ask your supervisor as much as you can about, you know, where's opportunity to publish or are you publishing? Like, can I help out and just get your names on it even if it's not first offer? Yeah. And a lot of people mentioned in the preregistration questions about barriers and finding opportunities. It's we mentioned this in the previous two webinar. So I would recommend you to go look at that as well, but it's all about asking and it can seem quite awkward at first, but just ask people if they're publishing if they need your help in a certain project, because that's a way to get your name on papers and to get used to the environment and then people be more likely to give you those opportunities in the future as well. But yeah, if you're looking really looking forward to an experiment, like this is the, the crux of your project and it actually works. It's extremely satisfying. I think I had that um to, to an extent and it was the last experiment I did for my phd and it actually worked and I was shocked because nothing had worked that smoothly before. Um But it is extremely satisfying because then I knew like okay, fine. This is not, this is all right. It was, it was, it's more like um alleviating stress is and also quite satisfying. So then the next bit is when you do research, especially if you do some sort of translational research can be quite satisfying because you know, this is going to be directly used in preclinical or clinical trials, which can make you feel closer to showing that you've done something to benefit people or the public or patient's. Um So you get that degree of self satisfaction that you're helping the world or making the world a better place. Um You don't get that as much with lab based research. I think you're a bit disconnected from knowing what the future of your project holds because you're not doing it for that long. But if you're doing translational medicine, especially as a clinical, as a clinician doing research, you definitely have that experience of. Um okay, this is helping out the world, this is going to be good for the future. Um And then I think Jazz can talk about our next point, traveling abroad for conferences. Yeah, you get paid to travel. So Jazz, yes. So this is so there's like a few things that I wanted to do. Um A phd one was published and one was do like a big conference. And the good thing is that we're conferences, there tends to be a little money attached to it. So even the conference sponsors themselves will have funding and say, you know, if you're speaking our event or doing a poster, we will pay you to come. So and then as I pay you, not like a salary but pay you as in reimburse you for travel, hotel, the conference attendance fee. So I went to Denmark's, I was in Copenhagen and it was, I think it was four days I was there for. So I think total cost was about 1000 lbs. And I got that all paid for by department um the society that was running the event and also my college. So between the three, they funded me to go out there, interact with essentially groundbreaking stuff, present my work as well. So it kind of gave me that confidence and especially before you do your vibe, but it's kind of good because there's obviously professors and lecturers in the audience that will ask you questions that you might not thought about and then you can go away research it and if it does come up in your bible, you're like, oh, actually I know that, but this is why we didn't do that. So it's really good opportunities. This is kind of more new now because if you're looking, if you want to do in a conference that is all on your back to be like, oh, I I noticed this and then you go to your supervisor and say this conference is happening in, you know, six months time, the deadlines in, you know, two month's time. Can we do this? And then they will be the ones saying yes or no, that's realistic or, you know, why don't you do this work? Because this is where it should go and then they either help you with the funding or they'll kind of sign post you. So if they're gonna use their own funding, they'll have a lot of input in it. If it's more useful, your own funding for that, then you kind of get a bit more saying it because obviously, you know, it's not their money going to. So this highly recommend, you know, it's only gonna be like maximum five days if you go to a big international one or it might be a smaller local one day one, but either way it looks really good and you can speak about a lot of places. So highly recommend. Yeah. And um all of this gives you points as well. Um for specialty applications, if you're thinking of applying uh presentations, posters, all of that. And I think a lot of people are unaware, it's quite easy to get an abstract or a poster accepted to a conference. It's just about sending it and applying because normally you don't need to pay to apply. It's only the conference registration fees which like jazz was saying you can get reimbursed from a variety of different sources. But just applying no matter how small the project you've done, maybe you've done equip or maybe you've done a small audit or a small project with someone still just try and make a poster out of it. A poster only needs about 23 graphs, try and make a poster out of it and submit it to a conference because chances are you're going to get it accepted and that in itself is points and a really good experience, like just was saying to talk about your C V for future life. All of that. The next point I guess could is a pro for me, it might not be an advantage for other people but teaching, we got the opportunity to teach um other students in our lab, undergraduates, postgraduates, um other phd students and other researchers and you get to teach them and help them out and it's quite satisfying to impart your knowledge um onto them and show that okay, fine. We've helped, helped someone else, we've helped them improve their work. And I think that's quite a big advantage to doing research as well. Just did you enjoy the teaching? Yeah. It's quite weird because the experiments and you and I did similar experiments. Uh So it's weird when I did it essentially six years ago as a student and now I'm on the other side teaching it. Uh So it's nice to see the other side of how things work and it's not that much work because technically you notice and you're kind of an expert so to speak, that's gonna be going around helping students if it's like a lab practical. Um If you're doing more lecture based teaching is a bit different, but like we were in Practicals and lab demonstration. So that was quite nice. It's a little break from our phd as well. So you're still kind of doing stuff that's related to your degree um to your profession, but you're not really doing something that's to do your projects. This is nice to get a little break in the day. And I think for us it's three hours max. So it's just like a morning session. So it was quite nice in a, again, it's another thing to add to your CV, you know, as well as saying stuff like, you know, I've spoken at international conferences, I've also talked to students, you know, these are small things that you can really speak about our interviews or even, you know, in covering letters if you need to apply to different labs. So even small hours do count a lot towards your C V building. Yeah, exactly. And then the last, last, but not the least is we're talking about scheduled before, but it really belongs in the advantages here because it's completely flexible. There's no row to, you can do your work whenever you want as long as you get it done in time and you do enough work some days I would come in from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. just because that's all I really needed to do that day. And then you can take long holidays because you can just cover that stuff back up at a later date or before going on your holiday where as, as a clinician, you don't get that much flexibility. And like jazz was saying he used to work really odd hours and that was fine because he's still getting the work done. Whereas, and yeah, that allows you to balance other commitments, like childcare for certain some people around your work. So it can be that other bit of sort of calm in your life because the schedule is very, very flexible. Yeah, just no. Yeah, that's, that's exactly, I think it just depends on what field you go into as long as it's not, you know, you got participants coming externally to meet you. Um I think most, most of degrees will have a lot of flexibility, especially the science field. Um And we were, we were, I think most universities have out of hours access. So you tend to be fine. As long as you're not relying on another department, you, you tend to be quite flexible in your projects. Yeah, it's really nice that way. Um So I guess that brings us to pretty much the end. So if anyone has any questions, please do put them in the chat, we'll have time to go through about five before we do the final mental meter quiz. So I'll give it a couple of questions. If anyone has any questions, please do put it in the chat and we'll go through them now. Okay. So while you guys type into the chat, um we'll start the mental meter quiz or if I just get that started. So if you could just join up on that link, just like before, only two questions very easy. Now that you've watched the presentation and we'll get started, I'll give it a couple of minutes. Don't, we'll wait for a few more people to join up. Very easy questions. Promise. Okay. Why don't we get started? Yeah, exactly. We're talking, that's the main reason why research would be very isolating and last one. Excellent. Everyone got that right. That means we've done something well, today. Good work, everyone. So I'll just share the slides again. Are there any questions in the chat? Nope, no questions in the chat. That's completely fine. I'm, I guess a good thing in some ways. So please do sign up for our next webinar and that's going to take us into a new arm about talking about the different types of studies out there. And actually what are the pros and cons and how to look or start reading and understanding these studies? And also there's a QR code for the feedback form, which if you could please fill in because that's how you'll get your certificate at the end. Okay. So I'll leave that up there for a couple of minutes and then we'll be happy to finish a bit early today. I'm also gonna put a link to the feedback form in the chat for people if you can scan the QR code. So it's in the chat now as well. So someone just asked whether we have any tips to find a mentor for research. I think the main way to look for mentors is just look at different university websites and find the research groups in them and see what people are doing and what you find interesting. And at the end of the day, it's just about emailing them to ask and we went through the stuff you should include in that email in our first webinar and a bit in the second one as well, applying for phds and doing a degree during clinical training. So I would recommend you go and have a look of about on those as well. But yeah, it's just about emailing at the end of the day. Yeah, so I'd say you should kinda have already in your mind, kind of what field you want to go into, whether that's like a Neuroscience Pharmacology. And then based on that, you can look at different universities, what their projects are and you should be kind of honing in on the kind of area you want to be in within that specialty. So if you're going into neuroscience, you might think I want to do something with, you know, dementia. And once you start narrowing it down to that level, you might think, ok, there's only a few labs around the UK, they actually do it with that. So it becomes a lot easier once you start narrowing down what area want to kind of maybe specialize in or even have acquired niche interest in whether that's, you know, personal reasons or just something genuine in your undergrad life that I really enjoy that, you know, to pursue that fervor there isn't that many labs, they'll probably be doing it because otherwise it wouldn't be, you know, cutting edge if everyone's doing it. Um, so that's where I'd start and then you can quite quickly narrow down the universities and then supervisors. And then as Neil said, if you're looking out first for previous, uh, talk, we talked about how to find those people, what things you should look for in those labs. Exactly. And there's, there's other places as well besides just universities, like research institutions like the Francis Crick in London is another place you can lurk and even in your NHS trust, you can find clinical researchers, um, who might be willing to take you on as a student or just to get some experience there. Okay. I think we'll finish off there for today. Thank you everyone for joining us. And please do fill in the feedback form when you get a chance. Um And yeah, uh thank you for joining and catch this on youtube if you didn't manage to join for the entire thing. Thank you everyone. Bye bye.