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Professor Arri Coomarasamy & Professor Shakila Thangaratinam | Research Repair Shop

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Summary

This on-demand research repair workshop will help medical professionals who are struggling to make progress and get traction on their research projects and grant applications. Learn how to design a research project, source data, collaborate with peers, and develop a plan for funding. Partner with experienced academics and learn how to identify pilot data, how to best present your case to funders, as well as a break down of expected project costs. The workshop will provide key insights into the processes of turning research ideas into published studies, and potentially, a return on your investment.

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Learning objectives

Learning Objectives:

  1. Participants will learn how to develop a research proposal and identify potential sources of funding
  2. Participants will be able to create a team of like-minded individuals with specific research aims
  3. Participants will be able to identify the complexities of requesting data from multiple sources
  4. Participants will understand the required elements of the investment document for securing funding
  5. Participants will be able to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of applying for funding at a local level versus the national level.
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Computer generated transcript

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The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

you want to see? I can start. Yeah. Okay, that's it. Hi, everyone. Thanks very much for joining and for those off. You joining online. Welcome. So this is the first time you're doing. It's called a research repair workshop, which means you have an idea You don't know how to proceed. You have data that visiting for 23 years. You're feeling guilty every time you look at it because you spent so much effort and time. But only, actually, you haven't done anything with that. All you've written something you submitted it kept getting rejected, and then you lost heart is sitting on the points of that. So are you Want to write a grant and you want to know how to go about it. So anything that we you want to bring to the table today, we can discuss. So who wants to go first? Thank you, prop. So, um, I essentially want to find out about so this is that a a proposal stage? Um, it's an idea that I thought about. It's a question I have in my mind on, but I don't know how to go on about it. Really? So I want to see obstetric outcomes in a particular cohort of women who've had a particular kind off fertility preservation method. And then they have gone on to have Children. I want to find obstetric outcomes in this particular cohort, and I don't know how to go on about it. Okay, um, so you want to look at the rate the outcome rate following this intervention? Yes. So, uh, what happened in their pregnancies? What kind of complications they had, what kind of birds they had. What were their modes of delivery on? Been within complications. Is there any correlation between, um, compared to, uh, you know, healthy population? Whether there's an increased risk off preeclampsia in this particular cohort small babies or miscarriage? Even so that there is a gap. I know there is. Good, because I've done a preliminary search, but I don't know how to design it. Okay, so it's a competitive, gorgeous, exactly what you should do. Ideally, around a mistrial is better. If you're going to look at the effect of early intervention, you don't have a trial of the next best thing is actually having a comparative cohort that is matched on A depends on what you want to do whether you actually want to a play for a grand to that area, and you want to look at the preliminary evidence out there. In that case, I would say, do a systematic review and see what's out there. And then you can actually published that on then Say Okay, this is said And now we need a trial and that place the groundwork if you're going to a play for a proposal or you might have access to good primary data already on that in that case you have to see you about is this data. But are these data coming from? If these are between the collected data, then you need to get approval kinetics approval for this, and then you can do the analysis on you can do. Or it could be that there are existing studies out there, in which case you need to go through a data sharing agreement with them. And you can actually would suggest talk to multiple people who have done the studies and get their individual data on do that. So I think the main thing that you need to decide is, what do you want to do do you want to Ah, play for a funding a grand proposal or actually have the time and energy to look at all of the family data and do the analysis yourself? Then, in that case, then this is what I would suggest. Sure is this ovarian tissue cryopreservation and the outcome in women who had transplantation of the tissue back on. Then you want to know the life birth. So you see, there are only a few centers in the world who do that, s o. I think really the right way to do this would be to have a little centers into a collaborative partnership. You know, on degree on a set of variables that you would gather in terms of patient demographic variables, clinical variables and then, of course, outcome variables, you know? And if you have ah, harmonised data capture framework, then you'll agree. Then all these centers could start to report on those on those pregnancy outcomes on then. Then you would have it, I think because this is only a few centers that are that are doing it. I think that would be the most useful thing to do. So I think the perhaps As with all research, I think the success of this enterprise would depend on you building a team off people who are like minded who agree that this is important and willing to play ball with you. If you have that, then this this would this would work. And if you have that team, then what? I would say student, generate some pilot data so that you know, when you apply for funding as secular said you're not going to the blank sheet you're going with looking. I've got some data. Limited data doesn't tell the full story. But if you were to fund me, then I can expand this collaborative network I can produce, you know, more robust findings that way. But I think it's very worthwhile. I mean, there's a debate about when should you use a very intense you cryopreservation and then you shouldn't. But nobody is debating the role of this in pre pubertal cancer Children. You know, this is the only fertility preservation option for them, and they would want to know the only reason that you're chopping off a little bit of the ovary and preserving it is so that they would have a chance of off a pregnancy later on on. So I think in terms of funding, I would pursue that line because cancer and Children, you know you're much more likely to get traction from a funder, then say, for benign conditions like endometriosis, you might want to put away some tissue, but, you know, it may not be. It may not have the traction in terms of thank you so much. That was really helpful. Thank you. Anybody else have got any other? Do you want to have a question about funding when you apply for a grant or several grand grandson, it's approved. What is the funding go towards? Is there a breakdown of different categories? Yes, so it depends on the funding. But as a minimum, the funders will always fun. Do you, for the stuff costs. Okay, if it's a project stuff cost, they would also fund for consumables. If it's a lab project or even if it's ah systematically of you have primary study computers and the so called commander consumables, um, they will fund you for travel. Ah, and for dissemination. These days, a lot of journalists do ask for money to make it open access, including Ah BMJ. If if it's a funded project, so all of these will go under the request. If it is the funders, a charge like welcome trust our well being off women in UK These are the charity's that fund. Then they will not fund water called the overheads for the institution like the estate cost on infant. So these are routinely, um, calculated cost. But if it's an n a chart 101 then they will also found additional one. So you the best thing to do is for you to first identify. Okay, how big the product is going to be, uh, how long it's going to be, how many people are needed to do this project. What should be the expertise and what level of expertise either the such fellow higher grade, or is it associated with low grade and then link with the university? If if you're going through a spot of university, that is always somebody in the university who does the's costing, they're based in the in the office on, then they actually will put it all together, but they like you to contact them much, much earlier, and they will give you a figure. It might be a bit too high than what you want, and then you then have to take it. Okay, Maybe you need to think about it. It really using the duration are moving one of the staff cost. So it's like a back and forth costing by the thing to remember is most funders would fund, so I wouldn't necessarily reduce it just to make it competitive, because the funders will see it through that you're making it lower. It's not sustainable. So the grand scheme of things they do want to fund project that a viable and they're going to deliver. So don't worry too much about the money ago. Asking is a bit too much if it's a good project that they will fund it. Yeah. I mean, getting funding is so important. Uh, if you're doing it for the first time on, do you don't have a track record? You haven't got funding before. You haven't done research. Then it's near enough. Impossible to get money from a national scheme because they fund There's like investors, you know they want to invest in people and projects where there is some assurance that they will get a return on the investment. And, you know, it's, uh, you know, if you had I don't know of a million pounds, you would probably take two a bank or an investor with the name want you because you know that that our systems and processes and structures and track record that would mean that your money your investment is looked half turn. There's a return on that investment and fund. It's on or different, and you wouldn't take it to an uncle and say, Look, I've got a million pounds. Can you just look after this and give me a return on it? Because your uncle, maybe a great person, But it doesn't have that track record, and you and I just corner there. The million pounds, isn't it? So hundreds are no different. They're trying to make investment that it's really fascinating. We got a ground from the Gates Foundation. They don't even call it a grand application. They call it an investment document. So the the form that we are filling out the grant application if you lack is cold and investment document. That's how the fund A really sees it. So how can you as a first time person trying to get research gone. How do you go about, you know, securing grants? The first is look for any local pops, you know. So if you're within your hospital, if there is a spring bold, you know, research, fellow shape or granted, maybe 20,000, 50,000. But that's a good way to start to build up their track record on, you know, deliver on it so that other funders can see you. Okay, this person can take apart of money and do something that that and give a return. And then when you upped the game and go for national level funding, But it's for fellows, shapes or projects or whatever they may be. Your best chance is by aligning yourself with an established academic, you know? So you need to find someone like, you know, Shaquille, uh, on Say, look, these are my ideas, and you would get the critical input for a start. But also you would need that, you know, thinks periods and the track record that a nakatomi would bring to convince the funder that they should give you the money, you know. And these days, there are some really good schemes where you can go as an associate pee. I call P. I said, if it's your idea and you're going to drive it forward, the recognition will be there, you know, But you would need to kind of go bit someone. So I think you know, the medical students. We so right, you guys, the fact that you're able to find the right mentorship and guidance, you know, I think was so important in your achieving. But what you did on, I think that it's also true for trainees. I think they they need Teo associate themselves on. Then you know, the liver is associating with would be able to hopefully guide, you know, be a bit ruthless with whoever is associating. There might be a big name, you know, professors. So one serving your department. Ask them. Okay. Well, what's your track record? You know, have you got a decrease? Um, grounds. And have you taken a fellowship application and seen it through, You know, and if they said, Oh, you know, I did, you know, about 20 years ago, Then you won't politely, you know, move away and find somebody who you know who is active. And so I think that would be very important, too. Uh, some X extent. Ride the wave. You know, find you know where things are happening and associate yourself so that you can get your 1st, 2nd, 3rd card. And then, of course, 1st, 2nd, 3rd ground, You've got it. Then you you know, you would soon be able to fly solo, you know, and there should be a plan for that also in place. But yeah, getting the first one is hard. It's really hard. But that are ways in which you can make it, you know, easy for yourself. Yeah, I think it's important to remember to put funding for PPI as well patients and public involvement. Because that's becoming more important, isn't it? And we often forget to we think they're going to do It wasn't tree, but quite often Now they're asking for, you know, quite rightly. But that time on by think we should remember to absolutely has mean next next door. I think that's what they're doing. PPR yes, cost for PPI on due to add to be a success of the treatment, we also did the funding boards. Three things we look for one is the project is asking you the important question. Eyes asking the right question on Are you telling your proposal making sense on how you're going to do it on the types of everything to do with the product? The time lying is the sense that the old whole thing, the second one, is the team. Hey, the team is the team capable of delivering? Have they done this before? And that's what I was telling her. You want to do. You need to establish a track record. It can't just jump in and put in the ground for something that is nothing anywhere with the name, blink to it. So they want to look at the track record of the team. What funding they've got before have the delivered on time. So the teams important the third one is where are they based? Do they have an institution that actually is able to support them? Other partnering institutions as well? Okay, how are they? Actually, do they have expertise? These are the three things that are most important within the product. Yes, PPI with an a child, one that is half off it. It's PPI. It's so critical the PPI work. Um, thank you. On. Right. You're so I mean ah, in a ground giving panel. There are patient representatives, and they have, but, you know, a very strong voice. ALS the, you know, clinicians. So the researchers might see what this is. You know, this is not so important, but if the patients and layer of percentage of stays, you know, I think this is actually really important from our perspective, then it flies, you know, and they can be toe and, you know, so it's really important to appreciate that this is a really thing and on engaged patients and lay public in a robust manner, you know? Not just, you know, say, look, you know I'm doing this project. Are you happy with it? Yeah. Okay, fine. You know, I put your name down, know you really have to engage them properly. So that's the next Yeah. Yeah. We haven't online question. How important is the sustainability of the project for funders? They do want to know what's going to happen after this. So we're doing a pilot. They want to know how you're going to a full scale trial. If you do a full scale trial. They want to know how it's going to be implemented. But from the funders, specter of the main thing is, what are you going to do in the three years it comes in terms of the importance, Okay, that they have legs to go any further. If you're doing an intervention, that's not going to go anywhere, that doesn't make sense that they do like to see a signal on. Rather this is going, um, that's important. Ah, but the main priorities. What are you going to do to do now? Um, with the time very much agree with that. So I think sustainability is important on there are some red flags. So, for example, if you're proposing an intervention that is a million pound a shot, then they know that even if it's proven to be highly effective, this is not really going to work. You know, a scale. So eso that such red flags, you need to be mindful. So if you're proposing some fancy technology that it's very expensive, think people would ask the question, you know, is this really relevant? Is that sustainable, scalable and so on? But generally speaking, there is a hierarchical approach. You taken intervention, you establish its effectiveness, you know, And safety on Ben, we will. You know. Also, we would do healthy economic evaluation to see if it's kind of probably affordable. Then you hand it over to the policy makers, in a sense, you know, and then they would decide. Okay, what's the scope of this for a large scale implementation on Go on a scale up on dose A, staining it all over time. I think the funders are tuning into this, though. So they often ask you for what's called a pathways to impact assessment. You know, MRC, I think asked for Ah, pathway. They're stopped doing that year. Pathways to impact way exactly. A separate an X where you would say, how will this be used in practice? And how would it be scaled up on so on? That's no longer there because they appreciate it. There is a multistage process, you know? You can't really see it all the way to the to the end in that way. Yeah. Thank you. I think we have time for one more question. If anybody else has a question Uh huh. In coming to the PPI and I'm only bringing this up because I've been caught up. It's the language that you use when you're writing. They have to be able to understand it. Eso You have to not use your very technical medical language, especially in the introduction they need to understand it, especially in that first grab that you put in. The second is probably not that, but the first one. Those lay people have to understand completely agree that they're actually tools online tools that you can look at the readability, the dining Kruger don't know, maybe a month, the whole of the like three fresh reading scale there are. There are multiple things that you actually Google readability Index on. You can put it under it, say on what level they say it has to be read by. Ah, somebody was entering secondary school. That's the level they're looking for for for a lace summary on. Glad it is important because you have to run by The board compresses off not people in their specialty. So you have to. You're writing two neurologists and gastroenterologists and healthy economists. So that is, you have to really have the clarity and write it after I usually ask my daughter persons that could be school to read any of my grand proposes. And if she understands it, then I know my my colleagues of the panel will understand. And she's actually she will say, It's true. I don't understand. I don't It's not flowing. So, yeah, get something Great school residency. I couldn't agree more. I think maybe this should be one of the really important takeaway message is, you know, on the way that you get Ms Cute is that in the ground replication? It would say lay summary, you know, And so that did you write it? You know very clearly a five year old can understand it. You know, rest of it, Do you think? Well, I've done the late summer. Now let me get as technical as I want to and use lots of jargon. It's a massive mistake because around the ground giving panel there will be healthy economists. There will be qualitative research is there are people who are not in your field at all, you know, on they would be reading it on. They're not just going to bring the late summer they would read the whole application so if you haven't actually written it Like as though the whole application, you know, needs to be read by a layperson, then you have done yourself a massive disservice, you know, uh eh, So I think really treat every bit of it as though it is written for someone who is 11 12 units able to understand it. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. So it's time to move on now. Online participants, please move on to your next session on down. Thank you for in person people. Yeah. So seven. Hi. Welcome on welcome to the online participants for joining us. Also, it's shaky lot androgen. Um, and ARIC, Um, our same from anyways, they're blaming him. So this is a surgery part. Workshop is the first time you're doing something like this on this is to help troubleshoot. You might have some data that sitting on you just feel guilty every time you're looking at it because it's been ages collecting the data. But there, then you don't know what to do with it. Or maybe even the analysis you submitted. It got rejected and you lost heart on. But was it or maybe written up and nobody has actually given you any input or you want to write a paper or you want to play for a ground. So anything that you think you're stuck, you're here to sort of help you. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. So you put your questions to us. I think we have a question already online. So let's take that first. And then we can move on to the, uh, to the audience in the room. Okay, so we've been asked in many grands applications health, economics and epidemiological support required cannot be provided by Helmick on funders. Don't want it to be based outside. So how do we get around this? I think that's a really important question. So certainly if you're applying to hitched TA. So health technology assessment, which is a major funding for trials within an eye chart, and they expect you to have helped economics are a component in it. In fact, if you don't have it, you have to justify why that is the case. If you're doing more basic science or translational work and you're applying to say MRC or welcome trust, you don't need to normally have health economics in it because they understand that this is kind of earlier stage research. You know, it's only when it gets closer and closer to practice, then health economics becomes relevant. But many of the applications you know, there's an expectation that you would either have health economic, so you would justify why you don't need it, you know? So how do you deal with that now? This could also be, uh uh, this question could be not just for health economics, but also for qualitative researchers. You said you may not have the local capacity. So this is where finding your strength within network becomes really important. The way that you access all kinds of specialist skills than knowledge on expertise is within a network. Right? So it may be that you're applying from, I don't know, you know, from Kenya. But he was in your academic network. You might have university of boning. Um and University of Birmingham has a health economic facility, and it may be that, you know, that's where you will get the support to the funder. Also, this would look good. You know, it would seem like this is a truly national in the international application that draws own strength from different parts off the network. So I think all of you guys, if you're into clinical research, probably even for basic science research and translational research, this is true us strength. Your strength will be in the network that you have. You are as strong as the network that you have that you're able to tap into, you know, on. So that's where I would find the solution. I would find it. I mean, yes, it is possible you can find somebody locally trained them up on Do you know, get them to do a a job? But it may not be to the standard that a fund or expect. So I think I would tap into a network A supposed to trying to kind of locally on funders are sensible, right? They're not going to say okay, you have to find somebody in Kenya. Have nobody exists. The main thing is health economics are always an add on. The funders want to fund the main project on. Then you have to be very transparent, and I look at grant applications. Just talk to the funder, talk to the reviewer. They're not like super heavenly body sitting somewhere This is a really important question. We really have to look at the cost implications, but we do not have the capacity and capability in Kenya on. Therefore, we're going to link with a partner in Birmingham, but within the ground, we're going to build in a capacity building. So we're then going to train somebody in Kenya. So if you fund us, you not only get a good project which gives the cost, but you also will be funding somebody who can Then come for the next click it and they like to see this. Everybody wants to feel good, right? Then they think Oh, yes. Oh, okay. I'm doing something good and helping these guys who don't have, uh that are healthy. Economist In low middle income countries, for example, we work with burn a serous in Argentina for a massive funded one. They have i e x, a institute off effectiveness and chronic. Yeah, so they do economic help. The comics one and wh you just work with them. So if you go look at the wh of collaborating centers in law, middle income countries, they do her. But as I said, it's very hard to go cold on. You can't just randomly to set of age sec and say, Can you do help? Because it's it's much better that you tell the fund upfront saying, I'm already working in this network. I don't have it, but this is it And then it's up to the fund or they usually would not reject the whole proposal. Just they would come back to you. They usually have a dialog with us. Well, once they like the project, they will say Okay, we like this. But they did remove the healthy comics, they might say, or they might say, Okay, reduce it or just do a capacity building So it's It's not like set in stone. Funders are very, very flexible when they want to fund. There's always a bit of dialogue that goes back and forth once they actually want to fund your project. So I would not be afraid and also talk to the funding manager even before you put in. Applications of these are brilliant guys know we heard from Charlotte Alan today from MRC. She's the first point of call. You talk to her beforehand and they give some good guidance. Thank you. Any other questions from the group. Um, thank you very much for all the support that you've been giving us and training and workshop, this has really been very well helpful. How's this Wondering that I'm a master student and currently, um, during ah, quantitative from secondary later analysis, which does not in my smile, I later is not waited and therefore I cannot published the paper and I'm told, like, Okay, once you're done because it's so like, I don't have so much time to start doing weights and everything. So once I'm done, I have to like, we do the whole analysis again with plicating off weight. So I was just wondering, how much support can you give me if I need to reach out for excess support in terms off, Maybe training there are, or just extra like I'm guidance and publications if I can reach out to this kind of. But thank you. There is a quote that is attributed to Weinstein, and there are many quotes that I attribute it to Einstein. But this one is there an authentic When it seemed like he definitely said this on that Is that hey said if you give me an hour to solve a problem and my life depended on it. Then I would spend 50 minutes on the question and 10 minutes on the answer right? He wasn't trying to say they look, you know, I'm so clever that I can solve the problem in 10 minutes. But he was really trying to say there, yes, that spend so much time on the question. Because if you get the question right, then everything else follows from that. You know, it's really important. So the question has to be as well. Probably when the ground was saying, you know, is there an appetite for people to take up your work on Do you know, use it in practice and so on? Because that is a birth wild question to pursue. And if it's not, there doesn't matter how interesting you think it may be. You may not want to invest time and effort in that. So going back to your question, you've got a set of data on that set of data. You're able to use it for masters, but you can use it for publication because it doesn't have something in it at the moment. Is that roughly right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So it's a longer treadmill service, so I'm just wondering, just the aspect of weights is not there. Like, do you guys support in quantity? Okay, so what you need to do this is a very specific problem. That's good. You know, you've got a very specific problem. You need to find a methodology or statistician who can look at the data, looked at to what the data car can and can't do. And what is it that your research question that you know, you're trying to answer with this data on? Then you need to put that very specific question to that methodology, just or the statistician to say, Can I or can't I do this? You know, I think so. Are you asking whether the two of us can do that way? But what are you at the moment based? Okay. Okay. Um, that's funny, because once there was a time when I had to send somebody from here to Aberdeen to get statistical support. But you the answer is yes. You know, you can pass it by us, but, you know, you might be able to get that support locally. That is always better in that. You know, you can keep returning to them, and they haven't obligation to provide this support. But if you can't find that support, by all means reach out to us because, you know, the whole concept of glow is that it creates the community. As I mentioned earlier, it creates a network. We are part of your network, You know, you have a lifetime pass in this network, so yeah, the short answer is you can pass it by us and we can, you know, we can have a look at that. That would be helpful. So Aberdeen has got one of the best type testicle units there. Yeah. So we we went there on we actually had a meeting with them on it. Also got us intellectual called my red Black who was fantastic on Ben Mold. Who's here today? He's still some visiting here. He's actually ah, process in nobody in. And he's actually going to try and travel to a body on Ben's really brilliant in actually a mentoring young researchers and bend mole mentored So many younger searches in Netherlands on continues to do that medical students post graduation. So I would suggest so I probably you probably know that he was linked with a body in. So he is around his. He was sitting down. Or maybe he's just left, but he's actually planning to go there. But in next week, he said, Find him, um, we can give you this email. Um, John has his email, so even haven't and meet up with him. So I said, it's always easier for you to link in with your own network on you. Also, they also know who you are as well, because the end of the day you're growth is going to be in the place where you are. Unless it's a completely bad on 80 of nothing to grow. Whereas nobody knows Not like that. It is actually a photograph. And they are very, very supportive. So, yeah, talk to them. And if not, but I am really confident that they will support you. Any other worries? What? What has kept you up in the night? Okay, be positive there. Um, this is my own question. So you both know that I really loved loved maternal health research. How important is that? You think For me to find a niche within that. Or do you think global internal health is enough of the knee shot its own? It's a very good question, and I think it applies not just a global maternal health, but you know, any kind of research this the question off, You know how diversified you need to be so that you're not putting all your X in one basket versus how focused do you need to be so that people start to take you seriously, you know that they don't see us the jack of all trades. You know, I might. My advice on that is that a junior and intermediate level? You're really better off kind of hearing more towards the the divers if I portfolio wrote, you know, because you don't yet perhaps fully know but deeply motivates you. You don't yet fully haven't understanding about the funding landscape. You don't yet fully know what your clinical versus non clinical, you know, research world might might look like. So when you have limited information trying to pin your stripes on Lena, one particular issue can mean that you are narrowing it far too early, you know. But as you move further forward at some state you will need to start to focus, then narrow so that people will come to know your middle name is You know, Catherine Sepsis. Dunlop. You know, you need to get to that level so that, you know, people will take you seriously. You see what I mean? So I think, um, s so I think at an intermediate level, I would say, Just keep a slightly broad portfolio. I would say the same thing. I told my daughters, and they don't know what subject to take in DC's. You're a level. Don't take it if you hit. Okay? Can I was fiber that certain things? He will say that, actually, I'm not going to touch it, okay? It could be oncology or something that actually think it's not you. So I would say, Just make a list of things, okay? I am not greater. Do would be to, even if it's going to be something that's really so once you do that, then the next step is okay. What are you going to do with your driver's? What is it going to take you if you're going to take ah on a topic that's not really in your interest But you think it's going to land you, ah, high impact publication or is going to land you the first grand? Then I would suggest go for it because of end off the day. That track record then allows you to be successful when you go into your sepsis grant, for example, because at that time funders don't necessarily okay, Has she done got a grant and sepsis? The only one that he has. She got any grounds, and she got a high impact publication. So for those areas that you you think you can you're okay to diversify. I was. I just go and then you can and I would still suggest have something that maybe, I don't know, maybe like a menorrhagia. For example, you may not want to, but you could look at it from a methodology angle. So if you work on it on a network, much analysis and he learned a skill, that skill will actually help you when you come in a later date of sepsis. So ask you grow. If you only focus on one topic, you won't have the opportunity to learn the various methodologies which do come in hand when you become, ah, fully grown senior academic. But we really need your methodologies to be to your foundation, to be very strong. Um, that allows you to do that. That answer so much, you know, they they don't be something that you don't like. So conversely, if you are coming to research later in training, so ST Fire if this SD six kind of level, um oh, and if you want to be able to do some research kind of going forward after c c t. One is they were kind of time in terms of practicalities of actually getting jobs and stuff a little bit as well. Is there a practical time when it would be say, is post CCT too late to do an MD or research or an equally? If you are going to kind of start late, do you need to go in and to do it rather than just additional bachelors? You best. It's kind of a month for PhD if something suitable is available. Good question. Uh, the I would ask you to examine your more tests. You know, I would ask you to consider why am I doing this? You know what's the big picture here. You know what's driving me to to to even think about research. If the answer rest, I just need to get one or two papers on my CV so that I get the post that I want. That's completely legitimate. You know, it's a means to Menendez, right? Then you choose a subject you choose the one that would give you an output reasonably, you know, within a tight timeframe with the minimum amount of effort. And ideally, you do it, get it over and done with a couple of papers in your CV. You know, a couple of points when you are scored for consultant, post urine. That's fine, you know, And I think that that's you know, sometimes people think, Well, you know, that doesn't seem like a noble, you know, uh, endeavor. But we do whole host of things to improve our prospects off, getting a decent job. And if this is what you need to do, then I'm I'm all for it. You know, I don't see a problem with it, you know. But if your motive is different, if you said looking, I've seen a problem. Uh, you know, when I traveled out to Kenya. I did three months of observation. There is a terrible problem with sepsis, You know, on in my lifetime, I want to do something meaningful to have an impact on this. Then I think you need to play the slower, longer game. You know, that are no quick fixes. If there were, that would have been implemented already. You know? And then you're saying you know what an MD or a PhD would give me the time? Uh, the protective time to to really apply myself, you know? And I would say those who want to do an MD or a PhD, they really need to be clear about the motive. Because within the first 3 to 6 months, they will realize this is bloody hard work, you know? And if you're more tables, some But, you know, I don't want to call it shallow, but you know what I mean? If if it wasn't deeply rooted, then you are not thinking Oh, maybe I should quit, You know, for you too, to stick with it and keep going. Your motive needs to be deeply rooted on. If that is the case, then this is what I would say any time is perfect. You know, if you can do it now, do it now if you want to do it, you know, later, on us and SPR, that's completely fine. If you want to do it as a consultant, you know, part time while doing ah in a just post Do it, you know. And the beautiful thing now is that the funders are waking up to the reality that you know, there are people you know with very different backgrounds. You know, they have their consultant. They've been consultants for some years. They want to do research. Well, they need to be a pathway for them to enter, you know, research and academia. And there are opportunities now, you know, for for that. So I think the right time is actually, one of you think you are deeply motivated to do it. And then you need to find the right people and get going. And the nice thing is, you can get going parttime. You see what I mean? You can test things out while holding out of the job, and you know, but, um so So, yeah, I fully agree there is no such thing as this is not the right time. I I actually have a behavior student who is a consultant in 40 Consultant working full time, and she's doing her PhD, and she just completed it on her motivation. Waas. She wants to supervise other patient students on She felt that she has to have the degree herself before she does that and also in a hater, has got funding for any just consultants. They fund two sessions. Hospital eso. The main thing, I would say is linked with an academic who actually is there to support you on Do you can actually walk around with your job plan and things as a consultant, So it's never too late. Opportunities for non clinical colleagues All which one then I hate your one at any age is only for NHS cancer in ages. Consultants. The fund for two sessions it's called It's called a Named. I've forgotten the funding the fund for two sessions, but for the non clinical once it's a bit harder because the NHS is easier because they say you're a consultant or a poor CCT with a non clinical. It's hard for the funders to say you you want this and I'm only going to fund you for two sessions. They do have fun for Allied health professionals. They do from that, I don't know. Every day, you know, for non clinical. Oh, I think that's a really good question. I think the part of it or not so well worked out for non clinical researchers as it is for clinical searches and often post doctoral, known clinical post doctoral fellow is often referred to as the Lost Tribe. You know, for this reason, but what I would say is that the way to to deal, But that is to acquire highly transferrable, highly desirable skills. You know, if you're a trial ist, if you are a health economist, if you are a systematic reviewer, then you are needed and you need it badly, you know, and then you are going to find the opportunities to kind of, you know, progress in your career. So I think for non clinical researchers that the really important thing is to acquire skills than knowledge that are truly valued within the research large. It may be operating. I don't know, you know, a piece of machine in the laboratory that is quite technical that that that only you are able to do. But I think it's acquiring that, that you know, that niche skill that would put you give you the opportunities. Open the doors. Thank you very much. Afraid I'm gonna have to close this workshop now we've got so lots of thanks on the chat saying it's really nice talk. Many thanks to everybody. So if you guys move on to the next room and online people, if you could move on to your next session. Thank you. You stop saying I have these questions and don't all sorts of things, including would be the same thing. I think that's a good question here. Yeah. Yeah. So what we're able to detect this is quite recent. This is quite recent. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I do. It says on the neck vision. Yeah, many might might be attracted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They will have a lot of experience. They have a patient by that time. Yeah, but this is the professorial delegation. I welcome everyone. Um e uh Welcome, everyone, and welcome for those joining us online. Um, so this is this workshop is a topical A research repair workshop on this is if you have got data that's being sitting on your shelves and you feel so guilty because it's spent so much time in there for collecting it. But then it's stuck with an allis a stage or it submitted it. It's bones back, and then you lost heart or you want to talk about the research proposal. Hope to go about it are about the paper about the fund or the such carrier. So anything that you think needs to be discussed so small, like an open forum. And you're here, too, to provides additions and see what you want. Any questions? What inspired you both to get into research in the first place? Ah, I would like to say something, but I only wanted to travel the world on, go to different places and then see how things are done on to me rather than being a clinician in one place. It was such allowed me to do that, but I think it at a much more deeper level. Um, doing research set off allowed me to get the big picture, and I just felt very constrained. Just working in one hospital and looking after hundreds of thousands of women when I actually can do something that's going to impact on millions on, that's actually the bigger picture. But when I was very young and very new, uh, at that time, my immediate Goldwasser Okay, I just don't want to, Ah, only do the clinical training. I actually want to do something larger than just going into the l. A t. The specialists location. Um, so on. Then, once I came in, it was people like Harriet was people like college was my supervisor. Hobby. Tamara is this joy of doing research. That's a special joy that you feel adrenaline rush that you get when you do the analysis and you see the results. Or when you get a grand, it's a shot lived one because of work has to be done or when you see your work in the guidelines. So it's something being obstetrician. You already are addicted to the adrenaline rush. When you deliver a baby or you save somebody's like it's like, ah, it's a joy And I always think that they pay me for something which I would do any how how it is. Thank you. So I'll give you the understand sir but within the four balls. Okay, thing with the virtual for will Still. So the reason I came into ah to research was because I was stuck. I was trying to become a doctor in ups and gynie on Dime A Lots of applications. I wasn't even getting shortlisted a little on being interviewed, So I thought I should really go on become a GP because I wasn't cut out to be an OMG doctor. And at this point, someone said to me, Look, you know, do a bit of research and publish my No. Two papers. You know, you might have a better chance off getting through. Ah, the program on my immediate thinking walls. Look, you know Ah, 22 streams of thoughts. One was that you need to be very clever to be ah, researcher. And I didn't consider myself to be that, you know, And the other is, you know, the researchers life is is a dull one. You know, you are in the laboratory, you know, titrating old day. Why would you want to do that? Right. But I thought, well, you know, But I am stuck. So I I started Teo work with college con to do some some research. And then I realized my word they say is just amazing. I couldn't have I couldn't have enough of it learning new things, meeting people like minded people who are just burning with passion to to do some some good, um, on on really producing output that could transform care in places that you don't even know exist, you know, somewhere in the world what you're putting out could be could be a foul you. And so the whole thing, you know, became my life. So, you know, I was actually pushed into it out of out of necessity. And I guess the lesson in there is that when you know those are getting shut on you, you know, on your face it feels hard on, you know, it was a very keen, enthusiastic S H O and seniors that show, you know, send gynie. I would do a little forceps. Older one, too, is I will stay on after my shift, you know, to get extra training and so on. But I couldn't get a reduced drop post at the time, But the fact that the doors were getting shots in my face was what put me into another track, you know? And now I can't imagine a life without without research that is far more important to me than you know, at the clinical work. If I were to be honest with you, so I think, yeah, you know, uh, said bags what might appear us as setbacks in your lives are sometimes. And if you if ever face it's gold, If you don't have faith, call it nature, you know, guiding you, you know, in a part that maybe perhaps more productive and you know better for you. Although you may not know it at the time. Yeah, so that's, uh, unorthodox on high. My name's solution. I just graduated from the University of Leicester. I'm starting my A form post in a couple of weeks on and so just a little bit about me, just so that gives my question context. I was quite affected by Oh, sorry. I was quite affected by covert in my in my medical school training. I did my integrated B S C. At least in 2019 to 2020 which was in global health and it had a research project at the end of the year that was cancelled. And also I didn't get a elective either. Um, so my question is, is in the one of the workshops we mentioned earlier, that mental ship is really important, especially when you're starting out and researching don't have much experience. Having a lot of guidance in that first project really sets you up for future projects. Now that I'm going into foundation years, I wanted to know what your advice was. Forgetting that mental ship in in settings which may be, you know, resource limited time limited on. You know, sometimes people don't always have that time to give. So joining if you had any ice on that, sure, a really important question. You are going to be busy on whoever you're going to approach for supervision and mentorship. And coaching is also going to be busy, you know. So you need to have absolute clarity about what you are trying to achieve on, but the other person is able to give you, you know, and so having a frank discussion, not an abstract one, but really frank discussion is important. And in this frank discussion, you need to actually the first thing I would say you need to settle on is just how much time you can invest and how much time the supervisor can invest, you know? And because without time you're not going to get very far. You know, all that would result his frustration. You know, you would be waiting for this person to come back to you, but they are busy for the next five months, or this person has given you something to do. But you can't do it because you're running around so frustration relationship breaks down You. You know, you both kind of don't have a positive experience. So that is the first thing you know, absolute clarity about what you and the other person can do. And then, really, you know, set aside time to do it, you know, and be realistic with it. You know, we all want to do 10 systematic reviews and one randomized trial in the first year off being a doctor. But you can't. You know, you have to be very realistic about that. The second thing that I would I would say when you are doing lots of things is that celebrate every small bit of success that you have along the way. You know, you may not have Lance that first or the paper like Jimmy Ladders. You know, that's an exception. That's really rare as hen's teeth, you know? So what you need to do is that what you know? You are looking at 100 sets of labs, you know, you've done 10 cents sets up north, you know, go and celebrate that, because that is success, you know, And that sets you up for the next 10. Now you're 20 you know, on. So make sure that you have got lots of small successes. You can celebrate because what I see often happening, especially when you are in your your A foundation, your doctor or, you know, junior doctor really busy on you've got a big program that would only come to fruition in two or three years. You know, you lose heart along the way. You just think I'm working all the time, giving all my time and effort into it. But I'm not seeing anything, you know. So you need to learn to celebrate the small successes. Success is along the way. Then that will keep you going, you know, on then related to that is to start a project that is somewhat limited in school. You know, Texas to Matic reviews that can be done in your own time. They're good projects to do when you are when you have a full time job, right. But systematic reviews very. You can do a review. Your scoping search will tell you the review has got might have 10 to 15 studies or 102 150 studies. You see what I mean? You want to take the one that has 10 to 15 studies because you can see through within six months or a year, and you have a visible output, and that gives you the motivation to keep going, you know? So I think I would say absolutely clarity about what you want to do on then a negotiated agreement with whoever is going to supervise you, you know, so that you are both clear about it. Not just you are clear, but you know, you you're both clear on then, you know, limiting the scope of the work. You know, normally I say thing big, you know, do big, but I think here this is better. Right on. Do celebrating the small successes. Asagoe. These are strategies that you know you could put to use thing Disclaimer were neither of us are experimental. This whole research on the experimental medicine side and basic sense of a talking very much about the other end of the applied health research on, as we discussed earlier, I would say going to the F one is a new job for you. Just settle in first. That's what all the time in the world you don't need to start right from day one and find a good clinical commitment on research one. Something with a mentor I find is I actually don't believe in the university actually giving you on personal mentor, and you have, like, one hour off meeting with them on. Then you come out and it's not a mentor or somebody who actually is that part off your journey with you on, Do you can actually pick up the phone and say, because who knows you not just this person being allocated, they give you one. Now, you just talk. I'm more like a surface on and actually a a mental on dim terms off the project are taking on, um, this my flow isn't it's not applicable to everybody. But the way I look at it is I would suggest my students to align with a group that's already doing a work. So if you're working with air, even ask a reward system. Attic reviews He's got going on. What studies? Is there a role for you? And then you can choose. You can say, Look, I only have time to be a second review or do you have a systematic review that can do it that way? You don't have the pressure that work is going to be done with our Without you, that work is going. It's just not you who is doing it. It's independent only solely on you. That's the first step. And then once you're in and then you know that you can deliver on, I really knows that you're doing really well and he tells you today and then you have the time there for energy and, you know, fantastic work on you deliver it to the next week and he said, Well, okay, well, that's brilliant. The next time something comes, he's going to give you something more on. Then you don't do it and then you give it something more because we really have to first assess how much you can do. We don't want to give you the third bit at the beginning on also, it's less pressure on you. It's not like I've given you a project, and I got would chase you because from my experience, trainees and students have got multiple priorities. So we first have to make sure that you have the time. You are really passionate about it. You are delivery, and once you do it on, then you then that born happens automatically on. Then after that, then you can say, Look, I really have a great idea. I think I've done enough and I can start on my own and then we would support you is much harder for you to start praising. I've got this huge 1000 data I'm going to do on ovarian um, preservation. And it's got nothing to do with my research projects that I would say a great idea, but then work with somebody who works on ovarian cryopreservation. So you just have to be aware of water. So that person is doing how you can follow the journey because that guy is not going to change this. A search track for you, is it when you're not not in a bad mood or not for you, in the sense that we all have a limited time and we talked in a part and we're traveling and you're not going to do something on more very in prayer preservation. So you need to find the guy who is traveling along that road on, then join up with them and that person becomes a mentor. So it's which journey and which path you want to take. So that's the philosophy with the tree work just to just to after that, um, you know, you need to look after yourself as a foundation ear doctor. You know that are going to be so many demands on you. And I think not complicating your life and not overcome committing to an already stressful period is going to be very important. You know, you will have plenty of time, you know, to pursue research. Uh, so I would say, you know, just ask yourself what is right for you first and foremost. Yeah. Just to ask with regards to research, because I was so interesting it was so interesting to hear undergraduates, you know, at the level they are. I mean, for us, we would have maybe a very old one or two under graduates who would have done very basic research. So is it like a requirement for the undergraduate? Was just if they have some interest, so undergraduates they may be able to answer better. I think it's part of the curriculum. The thing they also can take appear off to do some interconnection. They can also do a master's as well. So be Mets I or Master. So that's for they can get selected to do that. But from my experience for the corporate in pregnancy, living, systematic review, all I wanted was medical students who are interested and want to learn. So I had students who never done any research before. Did did he have not even heard the word systematic review before? Did not know anything about the search, so we trained them right from the start on gave them the input. So I I just learned myself that it is possible for a student to become a researcher with, apart from the basic whatever they're learning in a spot of med school curriculum in research. Uh, that, Yes, it it is the training that rig you on day our engagement with us. If they are motivated on there working with us, we can't support them. There is nothing that they're less than ah than, ah, research assistant or a research associate. They they are bright ones there. They could come this for, Um, you know, it seems to me that it would be really important to share your experiences here, Shaquille, Uh, with a wider world, maybe as a support cation on its own, right? You know, how is it that you take a group of medical students who got, you know, a lot of remission to do and lots of other things to be getting on with, But, you know, help them develop in the way that you you have, um, uh, being able to do on create the conditions for them to do Well, I think this would be a great, great interest. I think you know, the students themselves would have lots of ideas, but I think Schering it with the world, I think would be would be phenomenal. And, you know, you can also show the output you've had, and then nobody can question the effectiveness off the off the approach. So I think it would be good to share when I met with, you know, godly, the just completed edited chief of BMJ. She actually wanted to come with me to the students because all of the living systematically river publishing the BMD ed just the core bit. And then she she left her post and we didn't carry through. But I I agree. I think this model needs to be out of shad and the world. So they have the teams that as a team for searching, they have a team for study selection. They have a steam for quality assessment team for mother to child France Mission on as a team leader for each on. Then there a senior one of the junior one on the junior one actually shadows for two weeks and the dust. And then they do the work, the same one the senior does on once they, a senior, knows that this person is doing the data make. It's actually there are no discrepancies. Then they allow to do independently. It's still a two person data extraction, so on and they have their own. What's have groups. They have the training videos on how to do that. So they do fantastic stuff and we can be raised their profile. We put them on the webpage. We call them student researchers. They're given co author ship I. They get opportunities toe present on submit abstracts. They present our civil, the multiple conferences, um, Andi promote them on social media. Ah, we help them with their applications. They want the price each year for the mental integration, in fact, for the work. So we also try to boost their academic profile because they're doing work for us on. I have to do something for them. So it's less than more like a like a win win. And I get free labor. Yeah, I get free labor and they get very senior, very senior academics who knows exactly what's needed. I know exactly how many points they need for their academic foundation, and I make sure that the students get I give them joint first authorship that air support off them share a first off the ship because I know that all four worked on that and it goes, it goes towards what they need. I think that that that's the relationship. It is a symbiotic. We both need each other. It's not, Ah, one relationship just took. Continue that conversation for us. I think we even have an issue with have a Post graduate, because they are supposed to do a research activity for us now in your three, because we moved to a four year program. But there are very few of pants faculty who are in research and who keenly supervise. So the students are really struggling. Okay, some off you will find a supportive supervisor stroke mentor, and some of you will not. So it's it's It's actually even difficult for them live alone, undergraduate, nothing. And then post graduate. You know, they just struggling, and sometimes I personally. Right now I feel I haven't doing so much. I mean, I'm so busy with what I eat and drink that I don't have time for my own, you know, the Post graduate. So I'm supervising. So I'm like, Oh my God, you know, how do I balance out this time? And then it depends on water. Up was graduate research requirements, a Zeta So, for example, if If this is okay for them to participate in evidence synthesis or the Delphi surveys, they do. You're already part off, like a program like See Safe and we already are doing systematically views on. We can easily link up, and this is something they can actually take as part of this. I do this with indeed, A She's got different be students. They have research, so I think that's a really good opportunity if it allows. If the institution does allow that, then we can actually provide the joints supervision. Because these women, because like 15 systematic reviews to do on this can easily be allocated to some of the students who can actually take that as part for us. The world gets done rehab on, uh, the reviewer they learn on. We make your life a bit easier wrestle, but we really need to make sure the students engaged for us is the distance. If they're with us, that I know care, comfort, coffee, what's going wrong? But if they're somewhere else, then we just want to make sure they're motivated and they will engage with us. So that's all you're you're asking for afraid all times out really sorry. You can have a No, we can discuss. We can walk and discuss Way. Need to go back down to the fries. Well, yeah. On online participants, please go back to the main session. Thank you.