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um, Welcome back, everyone. Uh, today I'm I'm Julia, and I'm an SFP need for society. And today I'll be moderating the panel discussion. Um, today we're joined by, uh, so far by, uh, free, uh, free, newly graduated doctors. And they're all doing different programs. So they'll share their experiences how it's been so far about any challenges that they've been facing. And we're also opening, uh, the panel discussion to your questions. So feel free to ask any of the chat, and we'll come back to them at the end. Um, so let's just start. But maybe everyone introducing themselves and telling us what program you're doing currently. Um, Sam, could you start, please? Yeah, absolutely. So my name Shawn. I am an F two who is currently working in Wales. So I did both my f one and I started my two in the south of Wales in the blind and went and Cardiff and Vail areas. Um, so I applied for a normal foundation program, um, and just wanted to do that in Wales. And I think there's lots of benefits to doing the foundation program in Wales. There are a couple of issues as well so we can talk a little bit about that. I didn't really think very much about doing an SFP at all, um, when I was doing it. But I've ended up falling into an S F p for my F two year because the way that the Welsh application works is very different to the way in which the red I think the majority of the rest of the UK works in that you can. You don't apply for an SFP with the normal application process and all of the interviews and everything. Instead, you go through the normal foundation program, and then it's a little bit less selective. Um, so you you get a bit more freedom. Really? And it's a slightly easier application process. So I didn't do that. Enough one. I did a normal foundation program, but now I'm doing an S F p, which involves teaching. Mostly it's a joint qualification. Uh, teaching. Okay, thank you very much for, uh, come back to it because there's some very a couple of interesting questions. I'm sure. Um, are could you Could you tell us more about yourself? Yeah. Good afternoon, everyone. So I'm I'm a graduate from imperial myself. I'm doing my academic foundation program or the Specialist Foundation program in academic medicine at Imperial. Currently my first rotation. So I'm an F one doing psychiatry. Other than that, I'm sure you had a fantastic day discussing about how to the AFP and how to apply. But again, we can go through some questions and my own process about how you want to specialize. Foundation program in London. Great. Thank you, Daniel. So high. I mean, you already I'm speaking anti. Yeah, you already? Uh, I guess. Kind of know, But anyway, but I'm done. I'm an f y two. Um, I graduated two years ago. I'm currently undertaking a specialized foundation program in Oxford. Um, so I've done my f y one n f y to both in the center of Oxford and John Regular hospital. Um, I'm currently, um I don't have an academic block. I have Academic day released across the two days. I've got lots of different, uh, teaching academic things that I like to be involved with. Me to talk more about those, um, as we go on. Great. Thank you. Robert. Hi. My name is Robert, and I was at the University of Liverpool for medical school. I'm currently an F one at the hospital on general surgery. Um, I I'm not actually on the specialized foundation program. However, I'm continuing to do some research during my foundation program. Okay, great. Thank you. And she finally Hi. My name's only I, uh now I went to Imperial as well. I did my I did the standard standard foundation zoning. And I did. My wife went back surgeon and now the South end for ft. Um and, um yeah. Happy to talk about any research and exams I did while maintaining the non Just being on the foundation program. Great. Thank you very much. We have a lovely panel of speakers today, Uh, with different experiences. I'm sure. Um so let's just start. Uh, could you tell us more about your experience with S F P F p. So far, um, in the same order, some Could you start? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I don't want to dribble on too much, but I realized having spoken to some of you guys before that you haven't talked that much about the Welsh sfp program. So allude to it briefly. And then if you've got more questions. We'll talk about it in a bit more depth later on. Um, so I wanted to. I also didn't say I studied the Imperial as well and then left to go to Wales, which is closer to home for me. Uh, so I didn't want to do an academic program. I kind of got sucked into this mentality, which is I know, particularly strong Imperial of academia is everything. And if we aren't academic than we are, nothing. But So I did do a lot of research during, uh, my time at Imperial, um, and did quite a few projects that built up in preparation for doing an AFP style, or SFP didn't end up wanting to do. And I think the main thing I was put off by was the idea of having to spend potentially spend an entire block a four month period out of clinical medicine. Um, and as a result, falling behind on my clinical practice, I think that was an internal fear that I had of mine, which I think when we talked about it a little bit more, we can debunk a bit, Um, so when you apply for Wales, you sort of apply generally as per the normal foundation program through Oriole. And then, if you are allocated, Wales, then you have to apply and rank all of your jobs. All of those jobs in include S F P s Normal foundation program jobs and lift programs, which is basically involves one day out, but not in academia, but in a different clinical setting, typically in a GP. So it's almost like you get four placements in a year instead of your three. So you basically spend Usually it's a Friday at a GP practice running your own clinic, so I like the idea of all of those. But I didn't really want to do an SFP. So I applied for some lift programs. I applied for some general programs and I got what I wanted, which is just a general pediatrics job with some some other specialties and enjoyed F one. And it was a lot of work, and it was very stressful, but it was all clinical. So I did do some research on the side that largely it was kind of a clinical base, and then in Wales, you have to apply again for F two. So you're not allocated F two all in one set, so you apply in the middle of F one, and it's a Big eight stage application process. It's a bit of a half. At the end of that, you can apply for another SFP. So some people did an SPF one. You can do a repeat one N F two, or you can have no academic background. And it's not an interview process, either. So there's not big fat in whitespace questions and all of that. It's slightly different to that, Um, and then you you kind of apply for SSD. And that's what I did, which gave me a teaching job in my F two, which also gives you a qualification at the end of it, which is a PG certain medical education, Um, and then that's 1 to 2 days a week, which is based at the university. And then the rest of the time. It's just going through your normal three clinical rotations. So that's what I'm on. At the moment, I'm doing acute medicine with palliative care but also doing some teaching along the side. Thank you. It's good to hear that you're having a good experience, so far. Uh, could you tell us how How has it been going for you? Yeah, I get short and sweet. I mean, mine was quite different. I was looking at the foundation program itself. I wasn't actually interested in the specialist foundation program at all. Um, the reason that I wanted more clinical experience, I felt like I wanted to spend my time working on becoming a good job. So And the reason I say that is, um as John said, was that you have, well, six rotations instead of five, which you have over the two years, if you did the AFP, for example in London. But when I was thinking about that more, I mean, yes, I did some more research at Imperial. I felt like I got the groups like, kind of understood the basics about how to do a research paper, how to work with the team and so on. But then when I reflected it myself, actually realized there's still a lot to learn. Um, there is a the amount of time for you to kind of do clinical medicine, especially if you're looking to do an F three and so on. But having an academic part. If you're not looking to do academia later on, I think it's very useful in your F two to have that four month block to really organize what you want to learn. Um, so, for example, in my my scenario, I wanted a lot more with the coding and understanding how to work with statistics a lot more. So I'm trying to work with having a focus for that four months towards that direction. So when I came to applying, I was actually last month at the end, just looking around. I was going to look at Lease and Oxford, but then I had a change of heart. I thought, Why not come back to Imperial? I mean, it's close to home, too. So I applied to London and I applied to Oxford. So what happened? There was. You apply. You put in, you know, different things. So I just spoke about this earlier things, such as recently previously done looking at poster presentations or presentations, any awards. And so and then what happened is a few weeks later you'll get an email and they will show, you know, a scoring against a question they may have about the rank. And if you've been interviewed, I mean, except for the interview. I then carried out the interview 2.5 weeks later. From when I got this through, I felt like I wasn't prepared to be honest with everyone. Reason is, I wasn't looking to do this, but saying that it shouldn't scare any of you. If you feel like you have a change of heart, do go for it and there's nothing to lose. And then from there, prepared for 2.5 weeks and in my interview process, which includes an academic interview and had an interview, clinical skills, actually think of knowledge and then moved from them. Um, interview November, wait until January and find a response that, you know. Luckily, I got the academic medical program, and so a few of you may know I was actually interested in surgery, but I've done academic medicine for a reason. The reason was that it gives you a lot of well, it's very open. You can choose any project you wish within imperial. If you're focusing, of course, in the other London ones. If you're in kings but and so on, you can choose different projects within those regions. And that's quite nice, because I think you can change during your foundation practice and quite early on, Um, in my practice, I want to understand, You know, what the different specialties having, you know, have for me if I learned something new if I find something more of an interest, But if I am remaining of surgery, I'm still able to carry a project in relation to that. So that's my journey so far. That's kind of my understanding. But again, anyone got any questions? More than happy to answer them. Great. Thank you for sharing that. And Daniel, what's what's your experience? Hi. Sorry. My laptop may sound like it's about to take off at the moment. I apologize. Uh, so I, um Yeah, I mean, I I was, uh, always but, uh, early on in funny, I decided I wanted to see a specialist foundation program. Uh, talks. We've got it. I mean, I guess my main experience is the program so far, obviously. You know, your your program is still 56, a normal clinical program, right? So I guess you know, even though I do do academic and teaching stuff on the side. My fundamental experience is still that that life is an F one F two doctor is extremely busy. I mean, I last year I did jobs in general medicine. General surgery. This year, I'm working in the emergency department, So you know, you don't have academic time all the time. Um, it's extremely busy, and you don't really have much time for a lot else. Um, you know, especially if you want a rough medical rotor. Um, um, you know, I've had plenty of time to develop academic skills, clinical skills. Sorry, I my academic time is a day released across the two years, so I don't have a four month block, which means probably get a slightly shorter amount of time overall to the academics. But it doesn't mean that I get six clinical programs. Um, which is helpful in many ways. Um, uh, it is really nice to have a day off a week in some in some places to do academics. Um, because you know, you can you actually can do academics and teaching. And I'm sure the other candidates will tell you without sfp, um, but just give you a bit more bit of extra time. Um, great. Thank you. And, uh, Robert, what's what's your experience been like? Yeah, So, as I said, I'm not in the specialist Foundation program. However, I'm in the regular foundation program. I'm continuing to research projects at the moment, and that's integrated medical school doing a masters. And that's where I picked up one of the research projects. Um, and then I also was approached to do another one in my final year. Um, and the data collection has already been done at medical school. And so basically, I'm just finding time within the foundation program to piece together a paper, um, and do the final bit for the for that research. I think my tips for that is I think if I had to collect the data, that would be quite difficult without the four month, specialized foundation program block or they're probably not impossible. Um, so I'm using in your foundation program. You do get self development time. This is two hours a week, or it can be, um, sometimes they break you in for a whole day in a in a block, and I'm trying to use that time as well as some free time. Uh, to basically continue that research depending on what job you have at the moment. I'm in a very well supported job, which I feel like I have. I don't have to finish late every day. So it's doable. Definitely doable, to continue research just in the normal foundation program. Uh, that's that's good to hear, definitely for those who are not interested in SFP on its own. But do you still want to do some research in F P? Uh, what about your family? I pretty much know what Robert just said. So I actually did apply for an AFP, but I wasn't successful in my application and my I'm not really sure if I want to do academic or not. But I was very focused on, like the core training, surgical core training like spec. And unfortunately they do really favor academia. It gets you a lot of points, so just tactically in my mind, it made sense to apply for an AFP. If I could get it because it would just give me more time to, um well, just more time aside to do academic things. Having said that, it's a bit difficult because a lot of you've got to be careful about it because a lot of a f p S o R R N f two um And so if you then do a piece of research in that left to some degrees are different, like dances different. But most sceneries have got a block an F two. So if you do research on that, F two won't be ready for core training applications. Um, so it kind of banks, when you're taking the F three years, so it's something to bear in mind. But having not got an AFP, I've managed to do um, like adequate research to meet the core training application criteria. And I'm considering maybe applying for an academic course surgical, um program next year. So it's 100% doable. I have to say it was a lot of hard work, but it's definitely doable. So if you like me, wanted to maybe do academics, they didn't get an AFP. It's 100% doable. I did both my MRCS exams, a systematic review, original research publication and, um, to audits. So I was busy. But I think you just have to be efficient with the time go look at the core training specifications, and it's just about being smart, making sure you're reading the wording. And what you're doing is meeting the wording of the of the spec, Um, and just try and take on projects. Always clarify that you will be first author or you will be a named author. There's no point of doing something really for core training applications if you're not going to be a named author, etcetera. So it's just about being smart about it being efficient with your time network early. Ask advice from all the years, and you can 100% achieve what you want to achieve in that time. If you're on a foundation program and you can turn as I've gone well, as I hopefully will do go to academic or foundation trading hopefully will work out okay. But yeah, it's definitely doable. Well, good luck, then. I hope you I hope you're going to be successful in your application. So when we're on that topic, then, um, for those who are not doing the sfp, Um, and for those interested in research, what opportunities are the two to engage in research while only doing F. P um and then we can set. Robert, Um, what opportunities are there to engage in research? I think, um, just talking to your educational clinical supervisor is probably the first point. Of course, they're going to be working closely with you during the foundation program, and they might a lot of them are. Well, I think they have to be consultants to be your clinical educational supervisor. So they will. There are a lot of them are interested in research, and they could set you up with something there. If you integrated, you could get in touch with your supervisors. Um, that's That's where I first go. That's the first point. Of course I go to and networking going to events, signing up for society's medical societies. All right, thank you. That's that's definitely some good advice. And she only anything to add. Yeah, I think supervisors A good shout. I would definitely recommend if you know what type of subspecialty you want to do. Go and look at the like the society because they often have grants and fellowships, go to their conferences, start talking to people like I'm personally interested in plastic surgery. So there's like a organization called the first, and they do like international trips that you can join them on. And, like, webinars and stuff. Um, I actually went back to med school and, um, found people that had worked with in med school and try to continue those projects because that was the most like, the most work efficient thing to do. Um, and the other thing would be Just ask your consultants. I think a great tip is just pretend that the rotation you're doing is what you want to do as a career. And then as soon as you say that to a consultant, they're just suddenly take more interested in you and they're willing to invest more on you, and we'll think more of you when things crop up. Um, and then that would be a really easy way to go. Like case studies published some like, for example, if you want to do cardio thoracic surgery, you need to be first named author. But you can't be. First of all, it would be difficult to be first named off on multiple publications. Just an F one for a surgical subspecialty. So easy way to bypass. That is just an author case report and submit it to a average below average journal. Um, so I think, Yeah. Seeming keen to your consultants Go back to your network medical school, Um, medical school routes as well as go for organizations in the subspecialties that you're interested in. Great. Thank you. Um, another question that's, uh, popped up is, um have you thought about having a long term academic career, and if so, what attracts you to it? What bitters you from it? Uh, yeah, absolutely. Can I actually just barge in with another comment on the previous question, which was because I still view myself as not an academic trainee in the sense that my sfp is primarily teaching, so we're not really doing very much research at all, and I sort of fell into it because it also had the rotations I liked. And that's kind of how it works in Wales. I'm not particularly interested in an academic career, but you know, we'll talk about that and answer the second question. But just in terms of what you can do, first of all, don't overstress because f one f two is not supposed to be the time when you build your entire career portfolio. F one F two primarily about surviving. Um, and if you manage to go through F one F two, add survive. That's a massive achievement, in my opinion. So don't build up into this thing. Oh, if I don't get this AFP at Cambridge then or imperial, then my life's over and I might as well just quit medicine. Now you know you're at the top university. You've already probably done a lot. You've all interrelated because we all have to. You know, I interrelated externally. I left Imperial, went to kings classical philosophy with theology and got to be filled rather than be it. I mean, why not so and that's not academic. And I'm doing a technically an sfp so. But one thing that I would say is, if you want to do research or you want to just build up a bit more of a portfolio or just get an experience in something different to, you know, just being a clerking machine in the A m. U, which a lot of a lot of your job will be, um, use your taste of days. And that's what I found was really helpful. So my main interest is actually quite niche. It's neonatal and perinatal palliative care. And so I basically booked out a week of taste of days with a professor of pediatric palliative care in a faraway hospital and said because they didn't offer that as a specialty in my specific scenery for F one, and they said, Yeah, that's fine Off you go. And then I spent that time, actually, rather than focusing on learning and experiencing in the moment, there were a few moments where I was like, Yes, this is great and this is definitely what I wanted to. I actually thought This is my space to really embody myself in quite a tight knit community, Sean mentioned, um, plastic surgery. So obviously within plastic surgery as well, there's lots of subspecialties. And if you go to like the one burns unit at this one place and just go for a week and have a good build a good representation of yourself and get a good kind of perspective of you, then they'll remember you and you can go back and you can build a relationship with them, especially as easy as a doctor. I think that as a medical student because there's a bit less of a barrier and you can just be friends with these people as well as other medical student. I always felt like I can't be friends with these people so you can build those relationships. That's what I've done. So now I've got an ongoing project associated with the specialty that I'm interested in. Um, so if you ended up with the foundation program, which is not academic and it's six jobs which you hate, you won't hate them. Okay, that will always be moment in every single job that you don't like and that you do like So don't panic about that. General medicine is always good, even if you're super subspecialist and you want to do something really subspecialist because you want to build a good foundation of clinical practice. That's what foundation is about. Not about academics. So if on top of that, then I would say, um, finding your your crowd and finding your people and you're consultant, the supervisor, you might not know who the professor of plastic surgery or the cardiothoracic team are, but they should, or at least they'll be able to know someone who knows them and get you in touch with them. So I always use your consultants and you should take this. Those are that's some tips then, Um oh, yeah, The thing was about academics story, you know, I know I'm going on. It's very good. And the question about an academic career. I don't really want to do an academic career. I want a teaching career alongside clinical practice. I think that would be really nice. So that's why I'm doing this, and I want to do after f two. I wanted to do at least an F three and F four, Um, and in that time I'm planning to do a Masters in palliative Care, which is offered at Cardiff University. I didn't know about that until I did my taster days with the palliative team there, and it's one of the few masters in palliative care that they offer, and that's general adults and Children. So I want to do that. I want to have a clinical placement like a junior clinical fellow job in a hospice. I'd really like that. I'd like to do a P. It's job, and perhaps during that time I do my MRC PCH. I'm not going to cram it all into early. No one loves a young consultant, so don't rush, okay? Don't rush into it. There's time. Um, And then, you know, you can explore and you don't end up stuck in a job where you're thinking. Hold on a second, a few years down the line or a few months online. I've done all this work for this one thing. I didn't like it. So do I want to do academia? Not really. It's something I could see myself I accidentally falling into. But it's not something I'm gonna hardcore pursue. I like the idea of teaching. Um, I really like clinical medicine. And so, um, but I think academia and medicine, they go together. And so there's there's always opportunities to get up. And I think it's an important thing to try to pursue to some extent. Sorry. That was a complete non answer. I'm going to let somebody else take care. Thank you very much. And what about, um are so have you thought about the academic career? And, um what? The terrorist either attracts you to it? Yeah. So I think just a personal story. Medicines kind of got the first, um so the first person my family to go to university, so I'm going to university is already big thing. The medicine is already a big thing. So everything for me is a bit of a journey. And so academic for me is something I want to develop on something in the SFP. But I think my main interest is going to be found during the foundation years, and I think she made a very good point. There's no rush to being a consultant. It's just about experiencing what works for your interest. So potentially teaching might be more of an interest, but I know that I would like to have a book more of a variation at this moment in time. I'm a bit more, you know, interested in data and artificial intelligence, A very broad term, but looking about how we can use what we have in front of us and, you know, utilizing that for the future. So for me, an interest would be if I do find it useful and I'll find out from a s a P program that artificial intelligence of interest like doing masters focusing around technology side. Um, otherwise I would like to an F three to see if it is not for me is teaching for me or is some other for me? So I think that's what I do right now. So not solid, but again would accidentally fall into that. Thank you. What about you, Daniel? She said, Yeah. I mean, I have thought a lot about academia as a career, I think. I certainly don't think I would enjoy being up your academic. I quite practical person. I like doing things. So, um, I think my current plan is is clinical academic. Um, you know where you know you end up doing, you know, probably 50 50 clinical work, 50% academic work. I mean, um, academia is quite a difficult, uh, life to live in the sense that you know, your your job, in many ways is dictated by by how much you publish. Right. Um and so what? You've seen a lot of academics, um, in clinical lectureship posts at the moment is, um, that the pressure for them to publish and be productive is so great that, you know, forces them to, um not necessarily have time for the other parts of their job where that clinical work or whatever. Um, the other thing is I kind of mentioned earlier. Is if you're if you do clinical and accurate work, you're obviously, um, subject to two masters, your clinical masters, and then h s and your academic masters in whichever research research institution you work for. Um, I think I think predominantly my goal is is to to have clinical work and do academia on the side. But again, you know, I'm not going to rule out anything. And, you know, at some point, I would like to do a Ph. D as well. Okay. Thank you. Uh, what about you, Robert? I'm not 100% set on academic career. I can see the pros and cons of it. One of my supervisors was she was pure academic. She did basically as little clinical medicine as she could put, like a little patient facing things that she could do. Um, and I think her logic for that was that when you see like a patient, you're changing that individuals, life doing research your You can change a multitude more lives by finding innovative ways to for medicines, new medicines and things. But Yeah. One of the things that put me off a little bit is that, um, some of it I do just find a bit boring research. It's a lot of sat down on a computer writing stuff, doing some strange codes that you have to learn. Um, and I think I do really appreciate patient facing work talking to people that you can do that in, um, research as well. You can. There's a lot of data collection you need to talk to patients and things like that. Um, but yeah, I'm definitely going to do an F three. See, See where my head's at. Um, see how the see if I can actually complete these projects in my foundation program, because that's another thing that is difficult. Um, just doing the normal foundation program is that I'm doing this research projects, but I'm kind of thinking at the same time, Like how? How do I motivate myself? Especially when I know I'm not getting paid to do them. I'm just doing it for, uh, kind of distant career path. Possibly, Um, that's basically at the moment, so I'm not sure. Thank you. And what about you, Shauna? You've mentioned that you want to apply to an academic like in the future, the academic surgical program as well. Yeah, Yeah, I think you have to be. I think surgery is a bit different in that, um, you have to be aware that obviously everyone has, like, a set number of hours in the day they're available and you get to a point in your career. At the moment, doing academics is beneficial to me because it's going to help me with my co applications and my applications. But I think that balance might shift in the near future because at some point, well, not at some point in the near very near future with surgery, you know, the number, the clinical experience, the surgical experience, the number of cases you do independently, um, is very important. So the more time it's a balance. I'm not saying one is right, and one is one isn't. But the more time you spend doing academic stuff or any anything else being like adventures outside of medicine. The less time you're in theater, um, and doing cases, getting your own confidence, doing things independently. So for me, if if you have to ask you right now, as a consultant, I absolutely love teaching. And, um, I do enjoy research, but the if I'm doing three days a week like academic stuff, then that will be less time operating. Uh, that will. That is what my passion is at the end of the day. So I think it's a bit different. Um, I think it's a bit different for surgery. The more time you spend dedicated to academics, the less time you're in the operating theater. Um, so that's just something to bear in mind. But personally, I found it to be in a very calculated way. I found it to be a very good tool research to get ahead. It makes it means that you meet people that you otherwise wouldn't have met. And you just get good recommendations and echo. That's what she said. Like the taste of weeks. 100% recommend it. Um, I did the exact same medicine, went to a niche plastics, um, peed plastics taste a week and then met people and did a project from there. I would just say his advice is to make sure you're on. Make sure you have somebody there that you know that is invested in you because often when you go somewhere else I had a bad experience. I went to a different institution where no one knew me. No one, really. Even the person I arranged to do this test a week with wasn't there. So no one really had any vested interest in to explaining anything, so that wasn't very beneficial. So if you go to a taste a week, try and ensure that it's with someone new with someone who knows you briefly know. So at least they're dedicated to teaching you. But yeah, As Trump said, the community is very small, so you can make a very good impression. And then who knows? You might be applying for red training or stuff later on. So yeah, it's a long answer. Thank you. Thank you. That's a very good advice and very good insight as well to a surgery side. Um, so we've touched up up on a little bit about some challenges that you've experienced throughout your foundation programs. Sfp, etcetera. Um, I just like to elaborate a little bit on that. And so, what do you think have been the greatest challenges for you so far? um, Shawn, Um, do you mean in terms of sorry, Julia, in terms of, like, an academic side or just in general for the foundation program, Just in general for your foundation program? Yeah. Oh, gosh. Where to even begin? Um, so, yeah, one was. I mean, I feel like I sound quite positive, but I spoke about it earlier. I'm going to be completely honest. I had a pretty rough time, and lots of people do have a really rough time with one. It can be really hard. Um, in Wales, there were lots of things that drew me to wait because it was closer to my family and they pay for your free accommodation and they give you, like, you get lots of benefits and they're on the old contract, so you get better things. But it was really bad at times. And I think one of the things I struggled with was just the adjustment of leaving everyone. If you stay at Imperial and you've kind of got your house and your unit and your people, obviously it's expensive, and it's tricky. You get a bit of London waiting, but it doesn't really make up for Kensington living. So you end up having to live out or live with nothing and it can be really tough. But you know your people. You know your crowd. You know the hospitals, they know you. It's just a little bit smoother of a transition. But for me it was just being ripped out of there and placed where I didn't know anyone. Very few people from Imperial go to Wales because it's not a particularly prestigious school and for a foundation training and people don't really like it. People are much more focused on more of the academic places. Wales is pretty and it's lovely, but it's also very underfunded. So whilst the whole of the HS is struggling, Wales is a whole other level to the point where as an F one, I was doing the walk around and up to 64 people on my own on a day and had absolutely no senior support. Uh, and I would call a Reg, and I'd be put through to just be put on hold for up to 15 minutes. In the crash. I put out a crash call and my belief was the only bleep that went off on my induction on my first day of Neville Whole Hospital, which is in Africa, I was told as an F one, You are the airway. We have no intensive care, know anesthetics. Nothing. It was just like there was a lot. There are a lot of really shaky moments where you think this is illegal. This is not good care, and this is it's a lot of moral injury, So I think I struggle a lot with that. You go into medicine and you think, Oh, I'm able to really use a lifetime of work to be able to serve the community and I'm capable of a certain amount. It's not very much as an F one now as an F two. I feel a bit more confident with some things, but still it's limited, but you're capable of a certain amount. But you're still not even able to deliver that because you're just being spread so thin. So I think I struggled with that and I did struggle with just like having to move away. Um, I left my partner back in London, had to move to a new city, didn't know anybody had to like, really learn how to drive like those kind of things. I just found a bit overwhelming, but I did really love the opportunity to kind of get stuck in and have responsibility. It is There was something quite nice about that. About being able to go into a situation and be the person that that starts dealing with things rather than constantly being glued to a wall and just watching what's happening. Um, so it's not all doom and gloom, I promise. But I just want to be a bit realistic. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that insight. Seems like you've you've experienced some great, great challenges, but I'm glad that, uh, overall, you have this positive mindset and you can talk positively about your experience as well. Uh, what about, um, are you've done the SFP, right? So you're doing the sf? You how What has been the greatest challenges for you, So yeah. I mean, I'm very early on. I mean, liaison sites. So I'm sure a lot of people probably laughing right now. Very well nurtured and careful. Um, but I think so far it's been great. I mean, good transition, Of course. You know, medical, you're used to just leaving halfway through. I never said that, but in, you know, work, you have to be there the whole day and just getting adjusting. I think at the beginning it's quite interesting. I think the only challenges. And I'm going to keep this because it's personal to imperial. Like you're staying in imperial, you end up staying in your comfort zone. So for me personally, I didn't have to change my accommodation like I had to. I still traveling by the same means I drive into work and only quite a few people who are foundation trainees. And I think in that case, you know you're not pushing you out that comfort zone. And another thing to understand from that perspective is you know, there are people who are coming from outside imperial outside their comfort. Get to be aware of that, that you need to support them. Everything is very brand new for them, like if she comes in. Well, for example, is good if some local students or workers can help them. And so you have to make sure you put your, you know, keep be aware of people around you and support them through the process. and make sure that you're doing well at the beginning. I remember the induction with a lot of the imperial student's going to stay together, and it became a bit, I don't know, bit of a weird mix. So it's good to kind of just integrate with everyone while you're there. Other than that, I think the only part is if you're going elsewhere outside your comfort zone is you know, if you don't Sfp, in my instance, is emailing the supervisors. So of course, if it's a lot easier if I knew the supervisors. But if you're else when you don't know supervisors, I think starting early would be useful understanding. You know who the supervisors are eating them. I'm working in advance because taking time off to meet some of them in your clinical time can be hard, especially because there is understaffing, a lot of areas. So just keep that in mind doing that going ahead. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the insight. What about you, Daniel? Yeah. So I guess I I went from Imperial to, uh, not dissimilar hospital trust. I suppose the John Wycliffe, you know in Oxford is a tertiary center. So I guess that was a very big and and, um, similar to Imperial. But I guess I was leaving London. Oxford again is not not dissimilar to London. So that was nice, I think. Really. One of the challenges I had, Um uh, from an sfp point of view was was setting up a new project, New Project Supervisory. A new place. So I mean, earlier, when I spoke to her earlier, you saw that my application was to do with endocrinology, right? But I decided pretty much immediately after getting my sfp and finishing university and having done a elective an endocrinology, Actually, I didn't enjoy endocrinology that much. Uh, so I decided I didn't want to do endocrinology anymore, So I had to. I went to Oxford having I want to do a cardiology and and no previous research experience in the area. Uh, and so, uh, you know, what did I do? Well, I went about finding research, and I just went on the Oxford website and found all the cardiology professors and just send them all in the mail, saying like, high, Can I do a project with you? Basically, um and, um, that worked, obviously but it was long, frustrating process. Uh, I don't know. Possibly exacerbated by the fact that the oxford, perhaps more than other institutions, is very exclusive. There's a club. And if you're not in the club, you know, in a few you're in the club you are in. Um, so but But I I spent months having various different meetings with the different supervisors, and I got passed around, um, numerous times. Um, each time I meet a new person, I'd have to justify why I was doing an academic program and why I wanted to Cardiology, that's quite draining. Um, but, you know, you persevere and and, um, where I am, um, I think the other thing is, you know, probably like Imperial Oxford's. Really? The hospital drive is a very big place, right? There's loads of different people's loads of specialties. Um, it's easy to get lost. It's easy to be on the end of the phone from someone who's having a bad day or or doesn't know who you are and what you're going through. Or, uh, and you know, it's easy. Easy to be on the wrong end of someone's iron for that, um, and then I guess the final thing is, um, carrying on academic time outside of academic, on outside of academic time. So I, for example, last year had one of my placement, So I had one day of the week, so I started my academic project. Now, um, academic project continues, but at the moment, I don't have any academic time, so I'm continuing academic project, but without academic time. So, um, again, as I think I mentioned earlier, I'm using STD days and, um, free time where I can continue after work. So those are kind of the main things I've struggled with in addition to, uh, work loads and stuff like that. Thank you. Um, so far, I can hear that we've been having some Everyone has had a little bit of a different experience. Um, what about you, Robert? Um, what has been the greatest challenges for you? So I've come from Liverpool uni, um, where I was for six years to London, which is a completely new city for me. I'm not from London. I haven't spent much time in London before moving here. Um, so just little things. Like realizing you can't talk to strangers on the tube. Things like that. There's just things you have to get used to. Um, but I've actually found it. So I guess this. I'm pretty sure all the students here, probably London based students. So you won't have that difficulty of moving to London because it's different to every other city in the UK. But just moving to a new city can be a bit of a challenge. Um, just it'd be good to go somewhere, I guess. Where you already have a couple of contacts. That might be good. Like my I know, my brother lives in London, so that was really useful to start and then making friends. Yeah. You will make friends. Um, during the foundation course, people tend to everyone is in the same boat in terms of, um, academic. Um, like, I think I've touched on a lot of them. Just finding, being able to motivate yourself to keep going, um, staying in touch with your supervisors and just finding the time to, um, to type it up and continue with your research. Um, in terms of my job at the moment, I'm one of my job. So I'm general surgery healing at the moment is very, very well supported. There's days where I'm just looking after two patients the whole day and just doing jobs for that. And I've never had to leave it. Never had to leave late. Um, I got a couple of hours sleep on the night shift. That was good. Um, so I think what I've learned from that is that the job is the most important thing over location. I think you just want, you know, you can be in the best, you know, most Central Hospital. Like I was jealous of people who are in Chelsea Hospital. But my housemates there and he says he's stressed all the time and so much responsibility. So from that, I would say job over location is really important. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. For the insight. Um, what about you shortly? Um, I think my greatest challenge or ongoing challenges. Just getting the work life balance, right? I think, um, I think people, I guess most people from imperial and there's quite a lot of pressure. Imperial. I feel like and in medicine generally to be on a conveyor belt and to be like constantly turning out achievements and I feel like I kind of carry that over to Dr Hood. Um, and I haven't quite got the balance right yet. Still a work in progress. It's really difficult. I don't really have an answer because I'm still pretty crappy. Is it getting burnt out? Um, it's just difficult because I think you want to do well. I, like, signed up for both of my exams. I had to do a conference to get the points for core training, but now, as a result, I used up all my annual leave for both. For two out of my three rotations, all my annual leave was used for revision, and I don't have any money left because it costs like over 2.5 grand for both exams in a conference and membership. So it's That's something that I don't really have. I know it's not very helpful, but I don't really have an answer for, because I'm just still very bad at maintaining a good work life balance. Um, but I think it's important because you are on a bit of a conveyor belt medicine and like how you choose to live your life like you, there will always be an upcoming goals for so long to myself. I was like, just call training applications, just call training applications. But like now, once those get done, there will be another obstacle and another obstacle. So I think it's just important to be honest with yourself and kind of aware that we're not in med school anymore. We're not getting ranked every year, and you've got to kind of lead your like You can't You can't just wait until you're a consultant to start leaving a balanced life. You've got to kind of leave that lead that life now. But easier said than done. I'm pretty crappy at it. So yeah, I think that's my ongoing challenge. Thank you. Thank you for, uh, for all for sharing all of your experiences. And, uh, it definitely gives a little bit more of a real insight into what an F p doctor work looks like. And what's the difference between S f, p and F P? And it definitely gives, um, yeah, more of a real real insight. And, uh, what about how more of a practical question for now, um, how long are the AFP rotations and how do they work. And how does it differ to the SFP? Uh, maybe let's start with some for you. How does it look like? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so in Wales, it's in terms of the length of the placement. They're the same as the rest of the UK. So you've got 64 months blocks, so the F one is 34 months blocks, followed by F two being 34 months blocks. Um, the sfp if you do so I'm going to talk briefly about this. Um, if people have more questions and they want to learn a bit more about the Welsh, Um, because it's very different. Um, then we can perhaps chat about that at the end, but I don't want to dribble on too much about it, but basically you don't apply with the standard, you know, application early, and then you have to do your white space questions and you're in interview and all of that stuff. You don't do it. You just apply from your normal foundation program, and then you rank 300 jobs for your F one, and it's just for F one. So it's three jobs, and some of those are about between 12 and 20 of those are S F P s and then you apply for them. And it's just based off of your ranking. Like your e p m. What's it called? That number? Your F pass is still called that right. Sorry, showing my age. So, you know, based off of that alone, you get your sfp so it's a bit odd. So if you're doing very well in that but don't have a lot of public aid or something, then and you really want to do an S f p and don't care about location or don't mind Wales, then that's a really good option. The other thing is that so I applied for that. Didn't apply for an S F because I didn't want one. I just wanted clinical stuff. Did three posts there. Then in my F two, we have to apply around January time of F one in the middle of F one. You re rank all of your F two jobs, which is very unusual, and I think all other deliveries you get F one F two is paired for every single person. But I think it's just a well, I think it might be one or two other places, but, um, for us, we have to reapply. So everyone reapplies and at that point doesn't matter what you got in your f past or anything. It's all based on this one application, which is the stuff you've done so far in F one Um, what you did in medical school and then some of your general achievements. And you write up your CV and that kind of stuff and a personal statement kind of like applying for medical school again. And then you've got 300 jobs. You rank all of them, and that's all the way up in Bangor and Aberystwyth and reels. That's North Wales and West Wales. And then you've got South Wales, which is the more competitive areas that's Cardiff and, um, the went regions in Newport. Um, and then within that you can apply for an SFP having not done one at all before having not had much academic experience, you just apply for it. And I did because it happened to have the rotations that I wanted on it, which was more palliative based. Um and it was a teaching based one, so that was good for me. So mine is similar to dance, which is that it's I think Dan was saying that his is like this and that it's, um, 1 to 2 days a week throughout the rather than one big block. So I get to get a taste of all three of my specialties, and then I get to also continuously develop these skills and it gives you a PG set. So mine is very kind of spoon fed. It's a lot of just lectures and teaching from the university and then course with this card. If university, so course work. And then I have to do teaching, which is really easy, because in Wales they're really heavily linked to the medical school. So you all get given your own medical students very early on, and you kind of gross. You've got loads of opportunity for teaching, but you can build up opportunity of teaching very easily in most foundation program where you are if you want to. So I've done that, and I've also kept links to Imperial. So I teach a lot of the imperial 50 years and six years still, um, give weekly tutorials to to them because I just love teaching. So you know, you can always do that and build it back to you, and you have to show a certain portfolio of teaching experience and then that And then they give you the thing at the end. So for me, it's not as academic as some of the other s F. P s. I feel like I've gone off topic. Julia, I'm sorry. I went on and on again. What was the question? It was about the F P rotations and sfp rotations. How they differ. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what what is your experience? How does the SFP rotations look like at Imperial? So it's essentially like Shaun said, but the difference is that you've got the six rotations and they are four months each at the end. So personally, for me and 50 you have one block which will be for your research just purely for that. But there are, like, if you're doing cardiology, I believe they have one day a week there to do like GP or something along those lines. But for me, it's purely for the academic part. Other than that you carry out your normal foundation rotations for F p. The only difference is you don't have that block for academia. Now, you don't have that block to move forward. Um, looking, particularly at your clinical practice, were saying that, yes, you have this four months, But during your two years, there's nothing stopping you from contracting supervisor in your first year. So if one year and working continuously, maybe out of hours on your personal professional development nose, that's what I use, um, to work on whatever project you may be doing. Or, you know, teaching audits, etcetera, etcetera. Um, so that's how it works on the improvement. Okay. Thank you very much. So it's, uh, three PM So, uh, I think we'll end the final discussion here. However, if you are happy to stay, we still have some questions in the chat. Uh, from our participants. Uh, thank you very much for joining us. And she only unfortunately have to leave, but very big. Thank you to her as well, for for joining us and sharing her experience. Um, are you all happy to stay as well and ask a couple more and answer a couple more questions? Yeah. I can stay for 10 or so more minutes. Likewise. Likewise. All right, great. Thank you very much. Um, so, uh, one of the first questions is, um, just in general for F one F two. How would you recommend finding out more information about specific jobs and how well supported they are? Uh, Robert, you've mentioned about feeling hospital. Could you could you shed some light on that subject? Um, so what in terms of finding out how what the jobs are going to be like, um, so in London, because it's so competitive you're not. You're not really blessed with the luxury of, um, finding out which jobs you really like unless you have a really, really high school. So, for example, I got my 168 ranks Choice. So there was no way I was going to really put any thought into, um if the job, if the jobs I wanted to do it the way I ranked it was first I did location, and then I did jobs I'm interested in. So I knew I'm interested in A and IGP infectious disease and I t u. And so, um, I think I must have put healing because it's not too far out and if I have a GP and A and A and an infectious disease job. So I was quite happy with that. Um, so in terms of finding out what what the jobs like it can vary so much from hospital to hospital because general surgery healing is probably much less stressful than general surgery at a lot of other hospitals. So I think the best thing to do is if you if you're sure that you're going to get, like your some of your top choices, say maybe, um apply to deny me which isn't so competitive or you get really, really high points. Um, then it's probably just worth trying to find contacts, Um, from medical school doctors that, you know, message them, say, Do you know anything about this hospital? Do you know anything about these jobs? I'm currently doing that at the moment because I'm thinking about possibly switching. We have to the hospital, Um, and so I'm just messaging people I know. Would you recommend this area? Would you recommend this job? I think that's the best way of doing it. Really? Maybe there's some online forums like I'm reading or something, but knowing your contacts from medical school and doctors is probably the best. Thank you. And, uh, do you have any advice on how to look it up in Wales? Yeah. So Wales and most of your foundation groups will have, like, Facebook pages and things, and there are ways to get in touch with people. But I think, um, you know, if you if you're going to Wales, talk to me and hunt me down and we'll chat about it. But, you know, I think the most important thing is to find the people who have been in the jobs do not talk to the seniors. They don't understand what it's like. Well, they should, but they just don't for some reason. And I really don't want to become that person. But I speak to some of the registrar's who are kind of like just get on with it and you don't realize how bad it is. I think a lot of the card if students, um, are used to it because they've seen it growing up like in medical school, they've seen what the F one and it was like when I was in medical school, Imperial I never met an F one or two during the whole of fifth year and six year only in third year, and I don't really remember that. So in 50 and 60 that was junior people I met when I m t ones. So you know, I didn't really know what an F one's job was or what was expected. So do do speak to them. Remember that there will always be days where you might be a little bit less supported than others, and there'll be days where you're more supported than others. Um, and I think if you feel unsupported at any point, it's really important to raise it early, speak to your clinical supervisor and explain that a you do feel unsupported and to make sure that the system is in place for you to be able to find some sort of help. I had to do that. But the point is that people are going to start dying because this hospital is not properly stuff. It was just that there's no other way of putting it, so they managed to give me. They use voice errors, which is a different thing to believe with, similar to bleeps essentially, um, the sleep of a neighboring hospitals on call medical registrar because we didn't have one in our hospital like that's how dramatic it was. So I was able to at least get some advice from them when I needed to. So people will find ways. But don't put in complaints at the end of the four months and then expect somehow your four months of magically gone differently. They won't. You can start implementing change early, speak to the B m A. They will get involved so they can be very helpful. Often it's not that dramatic. Um, if you go to Wales, it might be. But yeah, there are. If you go into some of the super subspecialist jobs, like psychiatry or plastic surgery or whatever, then they are typically very well supported. They expect very little from F ones. If you go into a general medical job or care of the elderly geriatrics job, it can. Sometimes I don't know about London too much, but in Wales it's just you're on the ward, you do the water and, um, that's it. So, yeah, I think I think be prepared based on that as well. Uh, thank you. And, uh maybe the last question just in general, for people deciding now if they want to do a pft, What would be your general advice on how to approach such decision? Um, Daniel. Yeah. So, um, whether to do sfp or not to sfp um, I think, um, it's the application is is a reasonable amount of effort. And I always say there's nothing to lose by putting in the effort. I think it's a good practice. Um, you know, you don't often get the opportunity to interview for a job, and next time you might be doing it will be maybe I m t or or surgical training, whatever. So it's a good practice regardless, um, but if if you're I mean, it used to be that it was just research based. So you know, previously I would have said, If you're interested in research, um, you know, I don't feel like you have to do it because, you know, you might not be happy, but obviously, now it's research, teaching and leadership, and realistically, in any medical career, I would I would think that you'll you'll at least need to take on, um, some teaching or some leadership. Um and and, you know it is an extra work to the application. But having the extra time really helps, so I would always recommend doing it, even if you're not interested in research. Um, you know, having extra time to do teaching or to develop your leadership skills is really, really valuable, especially in this day and age, where actually every service around the country's overburdened as an F one f two, you're purely there for service provision. You're not. They're really feel, you know, you do learn things and you do train over the two years. But the NHS primarily uses you to provide a service. Um, so I would I would I would definitely think about it. But if you if you if you'll be happy on the foundation program, you know, you do get opportunities to do these things Anyway, um, I don't feel like I have to do it so very on the fence. Answer. I'm afraid it's very personal decision, I think. But I've enjoyed it. Thank you. And what about, um are you mentioned that you've changed your decision quite quite in the last minute? What would be your general advice? Yeah, So I think just is a personal decision like Dan said and see, what do you want? I mean, there's nothing wrong with an f. P O s. If he doesn't make it great or more inferior than anyone else. It's just there for your own, you know, requirements. So if you are there to get and want to work in clinical practice, working more specialties and you still want to know more about your job, do the AFP if it's sfp and it's like you want to work on something particular, maybe teaching, maybe leadership or maybe you know anything research based I would recommend SFP. And if you're still a place where you don't know, there is nothing stopping you from applying from the SFP program, going through the whole process, going for an interview, which you don't have to pay for, you know you're getting a free interview course. If you want to think about that way, you just have to learn clinical medicine so it just help you toward finals and help the confidence. And then at the end, you can make a decision. If you don't have to get you know you have your six months later on or if you do want to take it. Well, there you go. Congratulations. You're on the therapy program, so it's very personal. Think about it. Take your time. Speak to I'm sure most of us will be happy to talk to you. Um, talk to other people about the experience is what they've gained. Um, and see where aligns with, I guess your own personal goals. That's my opinion. Thank you. And Sam. Robert. Any any additional advice? Um, yeah, I would, um Just what I said about yeah, if you want to apply to the f p. Just go for it. Nothing to lose. Maybe a bit of time if you have to write some white space questions. I did see some of them. They look quite weird. Um, the white spit questions, I mean, um, but, um, yeah, nothing. Nothing wrong with applying for it. If you get it great. You can make a decision whether or not you want to take it. If not just fine. Just get on the foundation program. Yeah, I think I would summarize just an echo. Exactly what Robert says. And what, um, are said really well, actually, that the sfp should be for you. Um, do it because you're interested in whatever is happening. Don't think of it too much as it's a leg up. And it's something that I need to get on to. This what? Whatever you want to do, you can do with the SFP or without it. But really think about how it will affect you and what's beneficial for you. You know, if you think back to when you were in a levels or in G ccs or whatever you did, you know you might have done some funky GCSE or some cool work experience. Who remembers that? Now Who cares? You know, in 15 years time, people are going to be talking about either the AFP They'll be talking about what they did during their red years and and those sort of things. So I try to do it for you. Um, trying to think how is this going to benefit me rather than or I have to do this to be able to achieve anything else because you don't Okay, thank you very much. Uh, for all of your advice and sharing your experiences today for taking your time on the weekend to come here and and and and talk to us. Um, uh, this is the end of the panel discussion. Um, maybe some last couple of words I just seen, uh Alexandra. Hi. I just wanted to say thank you guys so much for joining. Like, I don't think we could have had a better panel. All of you, you know, offered your own insights. You're also different going through quite different pathways and yet had such useful advice. So just huge, huge. Thank you. I think that's essentially the end of our events. So thanks everyone for attending. Thank you for sticking around until past three PM guys, that's that's impressive. Good luck with your applications. If you need anything, email or message, Sora or Med. We're always happy to help you guys. And yeah, there's a feedback form for this, which you should get automatically, I hope. But if not, it's on the chat now. So we really appreciate it. If you could give me some feedback and thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you for the invite. Thanks, guys. This is great. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming