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Good afternoon, everyone. Um I've just seen the red light but go live. So I presume um all is running well and that you're all able to hear me. Um Welcome along to today's faculty development series session, which is on essentials of research supervision for new and early career research supervisors. So my name is Nicola Brennan. I'm an associate professor in medical education Research at the University of Plymouth. Um And I'm going to be facilitating today's session alongside a panel of um experienced clinical education researchers and supervisors. So just to give you a little bit of background on the incubator for those of you who are not familiar with this, um The N hr clinical education incubator is led by the University of Newcastle. Um And it was launched in April 2020 with the goals to build capacity, develop careers and realize the impact of clinical education research and essentially build a national um interprofessional community of practice in this space. Um And as part of the aim to build capacity and develop careers, it runs a number of training initiatives for people at different stages of the clinical education and research careers and one of these is this series, the faculty development series, um which is what we're here to talk about today. Um So the aim of this series then is to prepare future supervisors for the variety of challenges um of becoming and being a supervisor in clinical education research. And the sessions are aimed at new and early career supervisors of masters phd and postdoctoral researchers. Um So the learning outcomes then are to be aware of the different challenges of supervising and clinical education research have identified areas that they need to develop in order to further your career in clinical education research, supervisory skills. Um and hopefully have learned from the experiences of clinical education and supervisors. Um So I'm just going to show you. Uh So these are the slides I've just been through the aims and the learning outcomes. Um I just wanted to give you an overview of the sessions. So today's session is on is one of six. And, and it's about mentoring new research supervisors. Um And just to say that the format of the sessions are very much that it's a lunch time chat. Um You know, about sharing experiences, asking questions and contributing experiences, good or bad. Um And the sessions will be recorded. Um And so, whilst I'm talking about um asking questions, um I have to be honest, we are um trialing this new platform which is med all. Um And so we're just getting used to it. Um and we want, as I said, I want to make this, we want to make this as interactive as possible. We want you to ask questions in the chat. We want you to speak where possible. Um, but we're still trying to figure out how this is all going to work. So, so please bear with us. Um, and if you do have any questions, um, just put them in the chat. OK. So I'm gonna move on now and uh introduce uh let, let the panel introduce themselves. We've got three panel members today, Jill Vance Bob mckinley and Ailene Barrett. Um And I'm just going to hand you over to Jill who's going to briefly introduce herself and tell you about her experiences in terms of mentoring um new clinical education research supervisors. Thanks very much Nicola. Um So firstly to say who I am, I am professor of medical education at Newcastle University and I'm a doctor by background. So I'm a practicing pediatric allergist and my week is divided between medical education research and pediatrics and I've just finished a clinic. Why am I saying that? Because I entered a career in medical education research as a second career, my background was as a, as a scientist. And so as someone who entered a second uh clinical education as a second career, I've always been very passionate about developing and supporting others who are entering a completely unfamiliar space just as I've done. Um So my role when I was reflecting on my mentorship activities has been very much by the mentorship of others at different career stages who are looking to progress a career in medical or clinical education research, whether that be just new graduates, whether those that are perhaps more experienced, have completed a master's, those that are completing a phd on those that are deciding which institution may I work in? Should I go here? Should I go there? Should I apply for a training scheme? Do I stay in medicine? Do I um in a medical career with some clinical education research or should I perhaps consider one of the academic training pathways? So yes, my, my, my, my experience to date has been very much about how I can draw my own experiences, um successes but many pitfalls in order to advise, guide and I hope support others who are looking to develop a career in clinical education research. I was just going to say thank you to everyone who's popping their names in the chat. That's fantastic. I think one of the disadvantages of this technology is we can't see you. So thank you to those that are popping their names in the chat where you are, who you are, what you're doing. Um And if you can't pop your name in the chat, is that because you can't access the chat function. So if everyone could put something in the chat that would be really helpful because we want to know that everyone can communicate with us, albeit by the chat box. Brilliant. Thanks, Jill. I'm going to pass you over to our next panel member now, which is Bob mckinney. Oh, Bob, you're on Muse. I had a lot of background noise and I turned off my microphone. Well, hello, everybody. And it's nice to know there's some life out there. Uh, it's very difficult talking to, uh, what appears like an empty room. Uh Well, I'm Bob mckinley. I'm Emeritus Professor of education and uh general practice at Key University. I've had a, well, uh I've got to the stage of my career where my future is behind me. And the I've been, I think I've been successful in my personal research career. But what's given me greatest satisfaction in my career is helping other people to develop and grow their careers. Uh This is something which has always been, I've been always been very passionate about. I personally was very lucky and I do use the word luck, ah, to have people to have had senior colleagues who are interested in me and interested in helping me develop my career. One of the things I've been working on over the last 10 years is to try and take look out of that equation so that anyone who would like access to someone who takes an interest in their career and helps them develop their career can get that access as part of that work I set up the, as me mentors a mentoring scheme which isn't large, but it does enable people as any as me member to ask for mentorship. And that's something which didn't exist systematically before we did this. Uh I'm always delighted to see people interesting in, in mentoring. I'm even more delighted to see people interested in mentoring and developing others who will do so themselves. And I'm looking forward to today's discussion. Brilliant. thanks, Bob. Um And last, but not least I'll pass you on to Ailene. Hi, everyone. And it would be lovely to see you all today, but it's nice to know you're, you're out there as well. Um I am, I'm always, I absolutely love coming to these sessions. So originally, when we devised this particular series, it was actually with the recognition that we ask a huge amount of people and we ask a lot of people to support phd and MD researchers and people doing their MSC S and we all supervise it at that level, you know, starting out as well. So I've spent most of my, what is probably now my third career really actually gel in my case in clinical education research, supporting early career researchers and lots of guises. And I came to the incubator actually as editor of the clinical teacher and started working with Gel and Nickel and Bob on lots of initiatives through the incubator. But for me, the personal value I have gotten from this incubator has been that mentoring for me. So, while I've been uh supervising MSC research and in clinical education research for maybe close to 10 years now. Um And I've cos supervised on an MDI, haven't actually supervised a phd myself. Um And so I've very much been seeking those opportunities to do that. Um It's actually quite difficult to do and, and Nicola and I were talking about this recently that actually in order to get funding to, to supervise A phd, you have to demonstrate that you have supervised A phd. So it's one of those kind of self fulfilling kind of challenges, I guess in lots of ways. So for me, I have very much come to this group and I know individually, I've asked Nicola Jill and Bob all individually for help and support and lots of things and I continue to do that through the incubator. So I hope that by the end of today, what one of the main things will reinforce is the value of this incubator to you. And I really can't overstate that. There is a directory on the website of people who are interested in mentoring, supporting and coaching, not only actual research, but researchers and research supervisors. And I hope that really what you get out of this is the need for that support network and how you build that support network. Um And how you build that into your uh career trajectory as, as a phd or a higher level um research supervisor as well. Brilliant. Thanks, Aileen. Great pl that's exactly what it's all about and you've explained it so well. Um So, so basically the session will work, you know, we've introduced the panel now. Um We wanted to focus on things that you are, you know, interested or need to know about in terms of mentoring. Um But we're going to just kick things off a bit with Bob. So he's going to talk a little bit about the difference between mentoring and coaching. But please start to think about the kind of questions or, or the areas that you want to explore in this discussion. We want you to drive this. Um So please pop your um questions in the chat. Um But until then I'll hand you over to Bob again. Hello, everybody. Um I'm going to just jump straight in um and talk about mentoring and coaching. There are two words that have been used in some ways pejoratively by both communities. And if you look at the literature, there is a fairly clear industrial line that mentoring is and a mentor is a senior colleague, the senior colleague who tells you stuff, they give you advice, they share their experience. There's somebody who's more senior who knows, he knows the buttons to push, she knows the buttons to push, she knows the people you need to talk to. She can help you build your networks and it's something that's informal where and it tends to be, it's a lot of people consider it to be unfocused and it tends to be long term on the other side of the, the, the, uh, the road is coaching and this is something that's become very popular and it's something that's seen in a quite a different way. It's a listening process where the coach listens to their coach, horrible word and helps the coachee find their solutions from their resources to solve their problems. And it's something which classically is quite structured, it might be and quite often short term and to help the cee get passed or through a particular roadblock in their career. And it is quite often short term. Now, I have huge difficulty with this sort of dichotomy because when I look at my practice as a mentor, um and some of you may recognize this. But I see and I see myself as a mentor, I, I'm someone who takes an interest in you and I II want to find out who you are and where you are not just geographically and not just professionally, but also how all that interfaces with your life and, and where do you think you would like to go today because that might be different to yesterday and it might be different tomorrow and tries to understand the resources that you have and they may be your personal internal resources, they might be the environment in which you work, they might be your own personal network completely, you know, and to help you think and plan about how you can start to get to where you want. And I just might have some resources, skills knowledge network, which might help you. Now, those of you and there may be some gps in the room, you may recognize this as sort of the quintessential GP consultation. And I've always seen mentoring as being like a patient centered consultation. That might be a completely alien concept to those of you who come from science backgrounds. But I don't see a dichotomy between coaching and the same thing. And I use the skills of coaching which are often taught within my mentoring practice. So that's what the my thoughts and coaching and mentoring. I was going to the slide, I skipped over. I was going to use as an icebreaker and hopefully I'll get this to work. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I've got a poll. It's working, Bob. Oh, great. Now, could you respond? It'll do several things. It will help help me and us judge the mood of the room with respect to mentorship. It also gives us an idea of how many people we have in the room so far. Three. Uh and it also uh it may be a trigger towards a particular, I think something which I think is important, which is unaddressed. So we've got six responses. I hope we've got more than six people in the room. I don't want to spend a long time. Ok. Well, seven, this is quite exciting. Ok. Right. Ok. We'll close that. Now. Um The, the reason I asked that is that as part of my work with, as me and developing and sort of uh ruling out the, the mentorship program is that I discovered for quite a few clinicians, mentoring is, has quite negative connotations. And the only time they've been offered, mentoring is when they are being supported. Uh because of difficulties they're having in their work and their career, I haven't come across it to the same extent in academic practice, but it does happen. So I'm very aware that mentoring can be seen as a tool used to ensure that people get through their probation, probationary contracts. But that's not how I see it. I don't think it's how anyone in the state sees it and we see it as an absolutely mentor, mentee centered uh improvement development um uh process which is absolutely confidential between the mentee coach and the uh sorry, the mentor and coach and the mentee and coachee. So I'd just like to lay that to rest. So, thank you and do it. Thanks Bob. Um I think that's been really useful to distinguish between the two and then, you know, raise that, that point about the difference between what mentorship means to people. Um I can see um Jason has responded there, Jason would, would you like to speak and explain a bit more in person or are you happy to just leave it in the chat? I can invite you to the stage. Jason if you're happy, I'm sure that'd be quite interesting actually to pull out for the clinical academics. Let me do. This is a, a new button for me to press. Let me do that. I inviting you to the stage. Sorry to be used you as a guinea pig. Jason, hopefully you need to be able to press about my urine saying enter stage. Mm Yeah, definitely. A oh, here he is. There you go. Hi, Jason. Can you hear me? NHS laptops, NHS laptops? Uh Well, thank you for inviting me. I just briefly. So, yeah. No, it really resonates. Um It might, I found that the most positive kind of mentor which experience I've had have kind of grown organically rather than in things that have been offered. I know um clinically, I agree with what you're saying, kind of all the positive experience that come to my kind of research and med ed leadership roles. Um I struggle to think of usually positive kind of mental type relationships clinically. I know I did train as a trainee. They had a new thing where you, they were trying to train special registrars to be mentors and it felt so kind of formulaic and and stilted that I tried to offer mentorship in a you appointed a kind of mentee way and it just didn't work. But those relationships that have grown more organically have been really, really positive, but II haven't had much experience with the as me um mentorship scheme. So I'm, I'm saying that from knowing that I haven't experienced that yet, Jason, I think you raise a really good point because the, the idea of mentorship and the operationalization of it have, have really been, been um part of diametrically opposed in lots of ways. And I think you're right that you kind of find that the ones that have grown out of, it's literally serendipity, you meet somebody who's interested in the same thing. And I suppose the theory around mentorship suggesting that an organization can match potential mentors and mentees. And obviously, it's still intended to be self directed and that you decide whether or not this relationship is going to work for you. And we're trying to find people who might be able to help you out. But I think people are almost reluctant to even engage with that stuff because they're afraid to then say, oh, actually, this doesn't suit me as the main particularly. Um And so people say they feel that if I'm going to do this, then maybe am I tied to that one person? Because I don't want to offend them if they don't really aren't the right fit for me. So it's trying to marry that somehow and let that relationship grow, but provide the opportunity and space to do that. Um And again, and it's not a plug for the incubator, but I guess one of the beauties of having these types of conversations and ideally in a forum where we can all see each other. Um But what's happened over, say the last two years when we've run various different initiatives like this is you can see where conversations are starting to happen or a light switch goes on because I meet somebody and I see Jason Hancock. Oh actually, he said something that was very interesting. I'm interested in that space and people are probably connecting offline that we don't know about. And so there's probably an inherent value that we're not you know sure about. But I think that's where the mentoring magic kind of happens is people understanding other people's perspectives and being able to go look for it. Probably it's about providing people with the confidence and skills to approach a mentor I think is probably one of almost like those pre skills as opposed to, as you say, spending lots of time and energy training people to be actually providing people with the language, the skills, the actual um words to say to somebody to say, would you mentor me? But actually even having that conversation that is about, could this be a fit for us and, and trying to do that in a way that nobody feels overly committed to it from the beginning. So it's a real challenge, isn't it? And Bob you've done, I mean, you've seen this in action for so long with the, with the Asme program. Yeah, it's, um, well, in the As Me program we offer people choice but their choice doesn't always, well, their first choice can be over committed. But part of the, one of the things that we stress is the importance of the first meeting and that conversation and the first meeting is, is, is we see as a very much a getting to know you and part of the getting to know you, is that ok, I'm not the right person to mentor you or for the mentee to say you're not the right person to mentor me. But still, that can be very positive because there's a conversation about mentorship and um I've had conversations but well, quite often when I'm mentoring someone, it comes to a point where I feel that my input um II can add nothing more. Doesn't happen very often. But then when I think myself, no, well, it does not last that long. And it's funny um the is helping the person identify a potential next step. And quite often, um quite a few of my mentors have been women and to encourage them and to point them towards women who are interested in mentoring that that's one particular uh step that I've, I've pushed people not pushed, encourage people to think about in the future. Uh The other is to think about uh and the II, think what you said about the specialist registrars being trained as mentors. I think that that's the two uses. One is that I think if you've got some words and some vocabulary as a mentee about mentoring, I think it improves your experience. But the other is I think you can mentor. I think there's a lot of power in near peer mentoring, you know, II have no idea what it's like to be a uh a, a, an academic clinical fellow and to be building a career uh or be looking at your career from that end, I have absolutely no idea anymore. And I'm absolutely bluntly honest that I can't help you, I can help you talk about it in the abstract. But when it comes to practical advice, I have none. Whereas near peer mentors, I think of a huge amount. The person on the next step or two steps ahead is a, I think a very powerful um resource. You just explained what I was thinking there, Bob, near peer mentoring is someone who is two steps ahead of you. Is it in your career or in your profession? Would that be right? Well, I said, you know, I said one step or two step. Um It's well and this is the, it's been alluded to here um that a lot of people in medical education are late career entrants or mid career entrants. And uh something I've thought very hard about is that when you, you're taking someone who has had a research career in bioscience, but is their career taking them more into education and they want to develop their scholarship and education or a clinician, a mid career, a consultant or a GP who becomes interested in education and wants to move past being a classroom teacher and wants to develop their scholarship. They are a very particular group of people and quite often the most common, close near pair to them in education scholarship and research could be a phd student. We could be 20 years younger. No. So we've got a very odd sort of career maturation with people who can be very experienced in one field, but just starting out in clinical, in clinical education. So I think we do need to be flexible and we need to be open to both to relatively young people, being able to mentor and coach older people and sometimes for older people to be open to accessing the experience and the wisdom of people who may be chronologically younger, but actually are further ahead in their careers. It's a really good point. Um Jason, well, I was just um I was going to answer Jill's question. I thought I'd just say it rather than typing it in. Um No, it's really interesting to hear that cos I am so I'm a early, I think Eish career consultant, still kind of five years in and Eish post phd student. Um So my most success as being a mentor has definitely been for that group of ACF S kind of academic clinical fellows who are now registrars who are kind of trying to carve out a similar ish career to me. Um And I feel the most confident, I feel really kind of comfortable in that relationship. What I still feel really uncomfortable with is the phd supervision. So I'm kind of pushing myself to do that, But I naturally gravitate towards the more near peer. And I feel like I've got a lot to offer cos I feel like I've kind of, you know, navigated through that complexity in the past. Um The challenge I guess with near peer is that you're not a near peer forever. And part of me still feels like a near peer to medical students. And then I realize I'm 20 years older than them. So I guess it, that changes through your career, who you are a near peer to probably, you know, it's flexible, isn't it? And will change and will develop. I think certainly what I've been hearing is the importance of recognizing the limits of your expertise. Like you, Jason, there are areas of career development, career support that I do feel very comfortable in. But many that I don't and I suppose that's around that early conversation with a mentee to explore what it is they are looking for and making sure that you are the right person to provide that advice and to acknowledge, to say hands up. I'm not the person of this conversation with perhaps signposts to someone other. I also maybe just take the conversation slightly sideways because it was around um operational the mentor mentee dialogue. And, and it was a really nice reference to having the right language as a mentee to introduce oneself and start the conversation going. And I'll raise my hand and say, as a second career researcher, I'm a mentee as much as a mentor and I seek mentorship. Um So I was going to ask again, Boba, our expert, what does a good mentee look like? What's a good mentee look like beyond that initial vocabulary around the introduction? So I guess where I'm coming, you mentioned it's an unfocused relationship but is it also unstructured in terms of having those conversations? Should I be coming with a mini agenda? What work does a good mentee? And I'm talking about myself now need to put into that relationship to get the most out of it. Well, the, that, you know, the, you know, classically it's thought about as unstructured, mentoring is unstructured and coaching is structured. I think that's not a useful dichotomy. It's um and my practice is, is to try and identify the mentees aims what they want to get out of the, the uh this relationship and to identify that relatively early, the it's, I think it's very useful uh for the mentee to have done or the co to, to have done some thinking about why and I'm pretty open about why it can be anything from. I'm, uh, you know, my career is stagnating and professionally bored to, um, I'm, I'm being blocked and the forces are conspiring against me or, uh. Right. I've done very well so far I've got my senior lectureship. I, how do I get to a chair and to have some sort of idea? And it may be, you're in ACL, how do I get my N hr training fellowship? It's very, um you know, it is sort of career stage specific. Um I've had conversations with clinicians who were just discontent with their clinic uh clinical careers and who have changed direction completely. Some have become academics. Uh one became a national czar for a social health problem. And he says it was my conversation or his conversation with me that triggered that change. But what came from it was that he was just dissatisfied with where his career was, but he came without dissatisfaction and he was prepared to talk about that dissatisfaction. So to have an idea, a goal and the honesty to talk about it. And to, well, it also has to be a trusting relationship that the, the, the mentee needs to trust me, reserve the confidences because there can be some quite uh confidential material discussed. But then I also have to feel that I, that I can trust the mentee that my madness doesn't leak out of the room or that. Not too much of my madness leaks out of the room. Yeah, that's, that's very fair. I, um, Sophia has put a question in the chat and I can relate to that. I think the question was just giving advice that passing the MRC S exam to my peers, kind of a mentoring experience. Um, it could, mm mm. Well, it's, it depends how you do it. Um Can you join the platform? So if you're happy to I can, you don't, it's not necessary. It's just, it's always I find it much easier to talk to someone, talk to a face than it is to a a name. But at one end of the spectrum, you could take it as something. OK. Here are my top 10 tips and that could fit into that very classical telling, advising uh spectrum of mentorship. But then at the other end of the spectrum, you could take a much more Socratic approach. So OK, you know, how do you approach your work for the MRC? OK. What do you have particular challenges with? How do you try to get over your challenges? What blocks you and you could convert it into a much more open and sort of problem solving and career sort of lifetime study skills type conversation, which I would say falls absolutely into the where I see mentoring as that combination of focusing on the real, that's why I do it uh the, that falls into that real developmental conversation, whereas the advice is only useful or potentially only useful for the getting your MCP. And once that's passed, that advice is now redundant. Or if you have that broader conversation, you're potentially giving your colleagues skills, which equips them and enables them to deal with different problems in the future. So I hope that helps and I have no idea whether that's, that, that has completely missed the point of your question or not. But thank you for your question. But would you have any advice as to whether is worth exactly what you pay for it? Well, I think I probably know the answer. I think I know, but I guess it, as clinicians, we often spend a lot of time building our reputations and therefore showing in a mentorship relationship, there's always the fear that you are seen as a less able individual, perhaps the starting point. So would you say there was an advantage of having a mentor mentee relationship completely out with your organization so that it's very much a distinct relationship from those people and those contacts that you work with? Well, you're touching something that I think the, the, the, when I talked about honesty uh about your aims and objectives, there's the other side of that is the vulnerabilities of that honesty. And it's not just for the mentee or the coach, it's also for the mentor or coach because you will, there is a risk and possibly it goes far to say a probability that you'll reveal some of your own vulnerabilities. Um I think it very much depends on your personality. If you're someone who is prepared to embrace ambiguity in all its aspects and uncertainty in all its aspects and are prepared to be seen as someone who acknowledges their uncertainties that probably doesn't matter. But I know that while it may be a more GP trait or particularly something that's flustered amongst GPS, it's not for everyone. And I can see there's a real, there's safety in going outside your immediate work environment and I can see safety for both of them that but it brings its own logistical and uh other challenges and there's always a pay off. I don't know about others, but I always value and respect humility and the, the vulnerabilities when I talk to others, I find that I'm much more um rewarding dialogue with individuals that are prepared to bring themselves to the table as opposed to the ideal person for sure. Yes. But I'm very aware that's not the case for everyone. And I would not want to see us homogenizing our personalities. I like, I like individuals. I would hate to work with clothes. Does anyone have any other points that they want to pick up on that? We've talked about where we've run over a lot of different points. So just giving people the opportunity to think back to anything they thought, oh, I'd like to know a little bit more about that. Well, can I just sort of turn it in? And there's a mid career or a second career? Both Jill and did you, were you able to access mentorship yourselves? And if so, where did you find it? I think for me, Bob very much, you know, like Jason, probably through conversations. I had not so much by really kind of seeking a mentor that that was my aim, but by probably putting myself out there in terms of meeting people at conferences where, you know, particularly things like as me in smaller meetings where I would feel I could go up to somebody and say, actually, Professor mckinney, I was really interested in what you said, I was just wondering if you might be available for a conversation and that I would say only came with doing a phd. I felt like I had the credibility to ask for help from people who were hugely experienced. It was similar to writing papers and, you know, things where you think. Oh, so and so as, you know, such a prolific researcher, you know, they don't have time for small studies. But actually, when you're doing a phd, what I realize is people are so unbelievably generous with their time and when you do approach people, um people rarely say no to a conversation, you know, and particularly now with, you know, we're not giving up time, you know, to travel or anything like that. So it's become much more accessible. Um So I would say I did, but I ii wouldn't have known at that stage of my career to go and look for a mentor. Um It certainly wasn't. I was, I was a physio in, in a first life and certainly that was not a, a thing. It was not a phenomenon. Um Certainly when I came into education, certainly not a thing here in Ireland. Um So it's really only since I've come to clinical education research and to the wider global clinical education research community that I've kind of really recognized it as an actual phenomenon as something that I could go into. So I've gotten more proactive and, and, and at this stage of my career being on both sides. So I find that I do a lot of informal or unanticipated mentoring with my master's students, possibly because I find it difficult to control boundaries. Um And if somebody is really interested in their master's research, I tend to be like, what are we going to do with this afterwards? Where are you going? What's your plan? And I tend to have these conversations quite early. So my supervisor, mentor roles clash hugely all the time, which is fine until it isn't. Um But I'm very comfortable as I'm getting older in, in sort of saying, I don't know, and this is where my boundary is and this is what I don't know. Um, and yet I know when I'm in that position where I'm talking to somebody who's hugely experienced or, you know, you kind of have that maybe meet your heroes moment or whatever you do. Revert back to that sort of feeling of my gosh. Do I really belong in this space? So it's a really interesting kind of phase of certainly my career to be in. Um, but it's just such a hugely valuable insight to have when you know what mentoring is, what it can offer, what you can offer. Um And to be able to go seek it. And I think it, it's not unlike, you know, I work a lot around feedback and workplace based assessment, giving people that language and that ability to go seek feedback and a confidence to do it. And, and that's what I think we need to really articulate more loudly to early stage career researchers that this is something they do for themselves, not because we say they should do it. Totally agree. I would totally agree. Um I've been in for what, 12 years now? And I would say that my ability to access mentors has grown exponentially in the last five or six years. So in the years, when perhaps I needed mentorship, most I didn't know who or how or why it would be beneficial. Like Ailene, I like to go to people with a question or, or some knowledge that can see that conversation so that it can be a two way experience. So there was that personal growth that I needed to have before I reached out. But equally in a small community, there wasn't the exposure, there wasn't the people to reach out to what I'm getting to is that I think there needs to be a critical mass of researchers in clinical education. So I'm really keen for early career researchers to be embedded in teams and within networks. That mean that mentorship falls out of those conversations almost without them recognizing it. I don't think it was open to me, but partly that was perhaps my own need, perhaps to grow my own research program before I could perhaps explore and have those conversations with others. But undoubtedly, just as you said, Ailene, it's making others aware that it's a really good thing to have the advice, guidance from others at the earliest stage possible. And the thing I would like to echo, um You, you very definitely said Ailene that I think you implied applied to Jill is that most senior people are delighted to talk to new researchers, people who want to build careers. It's some of the greatest conversations I have are with, with people who are trying to build or start out and build their careers. So you just ask. Yeah, absolutely. I would 100% agree with that. Um I'm aware that it's nearly two o'clock. So I'm going to wrap things up there. Um Firstly, I'd like to say thank you to the panel. Um It's been fantastic having your, you know, you sharing your experiences and knowledge with us. Um And secondly, a big thank you to the audience. Um And for, you know, helping us by being our guinea pigs and learning how to use this new system, we really, really appreciate it. And um I think it seems to be working. Ok. Um So the next session is on the fifth of uh December. And in that session, we're going to be focusing on, um, getting the best out of a doctoral student or a postdoctoral researcher. Um And hopefully you'll consider coming along to, to see that as well. So it'll be taken a very similar format. Um But yeah, thanks everyone. I look forward to seeing you then, hopefully. Thank you, everyone. Bye bye. Thanks everyone.