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this'll. Siris is part of our mission, really in reinstating electives for healthcare professionals from medical students, those who have missed I and during cove it. But it's also part of our broader mission, which is to democratize access to greet healthcare training. We're gonna post in the link to our profile page on metal, which has a list of all of the upcoming events that we've got going on. If you run organization, you can also create the same type of list. You can publish those events across our Discover events. Platform reaches tens of thousands of healthcare professionals every month so you can attract healthcare professionals to your course. If you would like a certificate of attendance, we're gonna be picking those like to alrededor delegates at the end. And again, if you're running, course yourself with your organization. You are also able to do that now, using single button on metal. You can set it up for your organization right there. If you're looking for other courses, conferences, CPD events, metal dot org's slash events, you'll be able to see events from hundreds of organizations in healthcare organized in one place. You got something going on every single night of the week. If you want to, you can search by. Topic is really dive in. So without any further, do I'm going on over to Aqua and only who are gonna have an awesome conversation. Hi, everybody. My name is Ali. I met finally a medical student at the University of Warrick due to start work as a junior doctor. Nephi want this August 2021. It's been an incredibly exciting and interesting experience to be part off this interview. Siris, along with my co host Aqua as we've been part of medals virtual elective around the world Initiative is to medical students rapidly approaching the end of, um it's called training. Just hearing all of these different perspectives from these incredibly talented individuals who have so much to say, has been a really I opening an enlightening experience. And I hope it will be for you to thank you for watching. Okay, so Hello, everybody. Welcome back, Teo. Virtual elective around the World Series of interviews with medal, I am once again delighted to be joined by Dr Mark Sherlock, a clinical doctor in the NHS and a health advisor for MSF medicines on front year, Onda. He is going to tell us all about what? The incredible list of things that he must to entails, how he got there, what he's doing now. And I think it's probably best that just like Mark, explain it to you. It sounds very, very exciting. Thanks for joining March. Yeah. No, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm a big file of metal on the normal Normal for quite some time. Nice know, Uh, it's a pleasure to be You're speaking. They have been doing some some really incredible things, and I'm not being paid to say that, but is really quite something. So Mark, I don't know where you want to begin with with this massive task that you must have to do. And could you briefly just run us through? Maybe how you got to where you are now and then we'll launch into that. Yeah, sure. And I guess it goes back. I on my I always on interest in global house. A zit kind of specialist area. I'm probably I didn't medicines a second degree, so I did a science degree of physiology degree. I'm forehand and either that I worked in malaria research before I did medicine on. But that was kind of a definite tract that I always want to go down. Andi. Then I guess you go through med school and you does much is the kind of Mexico takes up. You know, you was All these other things have to learn on global health. Is maybe takes up a day over that from a medical curriculum up past. So yeah, during that I kind of developed. I did continue doing some research on the side through my contacts through in the malaria world on Beyond I did foundation program like everybody does. But what I did do actually was a little academic foundation program in liver problem. In fact, two season, topical medicine on. But as good as that was it it like me to go to allowing for once a day of two to do research the Lyrica? What? Little welcome. Trust center. Um, it's not essential, but any means on I always send it to people that you don't have to do that as well. I'm a nun following kind of completion of foundation of the common tropical medicine. And then I worked in this trail. You for six months just to kind of get that three years prescribed it experience and MSF required and then joined MSF on. But I've been doing that essentially for the last six years. Onda on In the background of that, I didn't complete arm RCP. I did get signed out for your medical training doing it, but I do it in an actual traditional program. But during the competition season side on did a masters in public health as well in the interim, but yeah, but being in MSF has opened up and then a whole different world career aspect for me as well. But I do work clinically on the side, and then an address is a staff grade and in an emergency medicine. So it kind of keeps 1 ft and then adjust world. But a much bigger for it is actually in the girl on the global health world. But there's so, so much to unpack there from maybe two minutes of speech. Um, I think just just to keep things super basic before we dive in any further because you made the point that global health makes up a tiny, tiny proportion of the standard like medical school curriculum. If you like, it's probably worth exploring briefly. What do you actually mean when you say global health or what does that mean to you? Yeah, on a travel intellect from a medical school, junior doctor perspective and me, it means just a non not understanding or what? Actually, health care looks like around the world what it actually means, because I think way we get taught so much about. Of course, we can talk about the ANA just because that's what the house is small gonna work in, but also for, I think three to be a defective doctors within the chest. He also need to know what her other health systems work with. Other high what the health in equities and in a closed These are all in the world because you will, in the face of your career, treat patients that come from a hugely diverse where work of life, coming from very, very diverse locations or in the world during my time is an energetic doctor. I treated from anywhere from professional football was in the premises to refugees. You're coming through your door on. Maybe we're getting pressures from the government. Tiu start checking patients and passports, whether from are entitled to occur. And I think, like I have a full understanding off the diversity off what challenges people face globally or an actress in healthcare on it might make you understand more about the needs, the requirements people have when they actually come into your car. So by me, send that global health needs to be incorporated into a bit more into your best goal. Um, education doesn't mean that everyone, every doctor has to go John, join MSF or work in sometime in Africa, it just gives you a much better around and understand. You know, the challenges people face on what you can do as a doctor to actually try a dress off in the energy to you. It begs the question. On this day and again, it's I don't want to dwell on it while we've got on someone with the expertise that you have in front of us to talk to you today. But I think there is. There is an increasing appreciation, perhaps especially in in wake of the pandemic that that global health is either underserved. It's part of the medical curriculum or or maybe deserves to be explored further. Do you think that's a change that we're relatively likely to see or not? Perhaps at the undergraduate level? Yeah. Good question that it's stopping something that's searched. The court should get the emphasis to change because I think and it comes in the covered as long as you don't get caught up with, um being just satisfied with our own response. You know, you see the U K government, you know, right, like in furnace. You know, we have done extremely good job and recording at the vaccination campaign on BUK, but looking globally, you know, in the places that I work populations and I worked with a lot of accidents maximum, maybe it least 2023 if it'll on. But I think we need to really capture that in equity that were actually seen in sporting and for diverse on by. I think we need to have students on be engaging with the med schools and say No, we need to learn more about this because this is a huge important issue on Do we need to jump on that kind of lessens that we've learned that are evolving in front of us around health inequity on that needs to fuel are lobbying and the efficacy that we kind of hush at the medical schools. So do I think we'll change? Honestly, I don't think so, because I do think it will just We will revert back to normal as soon as feasible because people want that on. I think that's no different medical curriculum on. But I think the voice of this needs to come from key adverse. Think your advocacy groups through the BMA through and but also from the grass and levels through night students saying I want to learn more, this teacher to me on, that's a huge one of expertise in UK on global help you can in medical environment. It's a world he doing, so the expertise is there to teach it. But we just need to. The medicine goes to this chump, so I will move on. I feel obligated again. There's so many questions about medal, the rest of it. But that's not the focus for today. The focus for today, or especially I was saying to you before the call as it was sold to me is that you are the man who deals with medics and medics, medicine even in refugee camps. So perhaps the best place to start with full for the the uninitiated among us. Or maybe those who need to learn more about it like myself. What exactly is MSF on? What does it do? Yeah, sure. So we are kind of the world's largest medical humanitarian organization on We'll find in the early 19 seventies and finding by a group of French doctors on journalists on from there. It has developed into a nice already in the 50th anniversary this year or on a star evolved into unorganised a shin, which, um, treats provides her to most neglected populations and the galactic clauses in 74 countries I rode the world on. But I would do that through funding, which 95% constant people just like me and you. So it means that we allow you to be able to go to places where maybe, uh, the donors or other people don't want to go. So we serve the most objective populations on DS. So we're the forefront off arthrex epidemics, refugee crises. Um, I like all things in between were at the forefront of that on But the big thing that we do that is, to be less known is the rare ability to lobby on do, um when and let's have talks people listen on. So governments, listen, you and organizations Listen, um, so you use that voice or very effectively to speak like for patients and to be an African and be a voice for the neglected populations that we serve. So in a nutshell, a very big and very dynamic and very pragmatic organization that works. And 74 countries, I mean the again. This opens up so many potential lines of questioning and that the scale sounds no, only the number of professionals that you must have and that the different projects in which you're working, but also the the range of environments in which you must work, and among political instability and and all of that. But it it seems that despite all of these various things, you kind of have one job, as you say. And that is to get care to these people that that need it. And I suppose, would you maybe be able to give us maybe one pressing example from your experience of a non operation that the MSF might do. Yeah, um, so kind of one. Maybe that's in the media lot is the search and rescue in the Mediterranean. So this is a very, very political, very topical, very challenging environment of working. But currently we still seeing a hundreds of people on boarding makeshift rubber dinghies on DCruz in the Mediterranean, mostly coming from Libya. Andre the Mediterranean playing conflict on fleeing oppression in the home countries on D. You have to think hard, Destin, you must be to go into a rubber thing. You, with 200 people, do sail 60 kilometers 100 kilometers into the unknown abyss to actually take those steps to do that On one of the big things that we were, we've been doing it. We just launched another. A search and rescue ship into the Mediterranean is just that. So we searched the Mediterranean for for people in distress. On we bring them to safety. So in doing that, we we collect people from the Mediterranean, Andre, we deliver them to you, a port most likely Italy, but can be other places on. But that way we ensure that the survive, but also the, um hopefully received in the treatment they require with dignity. Actually, when they're when they're reached the destination on. But, uh, that is a very active in by topical One of the moment that it comes. I you get government. The European governments have ah very active opinion on this. Yeah, on DTI the point where they want them to be pushed back to Libya. Yeah. On December, we take a stand. So this is another thing that we need to do this intervention to try to save people. But we also we speak. I don't We use a voice that we have to actually to try change policy on, um So yeah, that That's kind of one example. But I could I could give I could give authority where I work. I work part of Nigeria. We have a huge e west of dipped it irritation on the conflict on dcaa NTAC stay in northwest Nigeria. We're seeing a huge optic upstate optic off turn into space population for providing health care. We're providing shelter, inviting basic and things that people needed to survive in a very, very different contracts in the north west of Nigeria. But I could say this about it. 72 other countries. Yes, I'm not mentioned on That's kind of the back part of what we're doing. I suppose just again. It's really food for thought, but okay, it begs the question. What sort off person? What sort of doctor? What sort of nurse? What sort of technician? What sort of person, if you like. Do you need to be in order to go and work in in one of these set ups? I my my big one is my big one. Across the multi disciplinary is is having open mind. Um, Andi, I'm being flexible. Um, because if you go in with an open mind on your flexible because the place that we work a change in every 10 minutes and you have to be adaptable and to be able to, um Flexall to adopt of those situations um, we also have to be open minded because on what I mean by that is that 90% of the people who worked for MSF more over 90% of people work for members have are recruited locally. So these are local doctors, not decisions, nurses, watchmen. The list goes on and on a work in the projects for for years, and they are the real experts of what goes on on. You can have a tendon tendency to come in as an expert, as a say, like an infectious disease specialist oars. A general doctor is a message. Oh, because you've been trained in gold standard. You are the experts on what they know or do is is one. And that's not That's not right, Andi. So you have to go in with an open mind to actually learn for the people actually live there on, maybe adopt. You're thinking, too, actually want to speak to the ball on what is needed on the ground. So for me, that's kind of the biggest traits that you need to bring on. That's across the whole not just doctors, nurses, but not just it. Largest Asians finance human resource Is any any kind of position where we have, um, jogo openminded onda ability to adapt is the key, but the interest you need have the interest of spark to be politically enough aware of what is going on in the world on. Do you know that? Yeah. I think I have the skill set I am on die. I acknowledge the range of my skillset what I can and cannot do on. I'm interested in in in trying to help. I think that's the most important thing. Cool. And I know this is something that can be that contentious, but you yourself kind of kind of mentioned that here, which is what sparked the question with me that whenever I personally have spoken to global health doctors, a global clinicians or whatever you like people like I David not anemic a CG people like that. There is often know conflicting opinion, but but various schools of thoughts on how well trained someone should be at what they do before they attempt to go And, uh, no change the world as it were. But they kind of can't wait to get stuck into something like MSF and become an S H O, as you say. And you're still relatively junior, but but want to get involved where some people will say no, become a consultant, become actually useful to me, and then come? Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah. Not that I I Yeah, you need to have a baseline experience. That's 100% sure on famous F in the UK for recruitment. That's three years close. Watch it. Um, on within that, you know, I printed I'm on CPB that point I had, um you know the dose. Can I? Three years or three years experience on I think that is the base sick nauseated, but depends on what? You're going to work for us. Well, if you're gonna work for MSF, you're gonna be going to run environment where you're protected. We have got guidelines on everything on. We have a structure off support in place in our projects. So you're not going the days have you been thrown in? An expected to do everything on long, long gone on. That's not the case in there myself. A list on you will have ah, support system in place that people who are more senior than you too. You actually help on. We have telling medicine in place. We've got technical people in place where you can go to to actually find out technical information I want to do with such a patient. So it comes active. One of the things that I sat up in the last questions about the key thing is you know is what we would need from us. A a doctor or nurse is to know your limitations, to know what you don't know on. That's one of the most important things on to know when to put your hand up and say no, I need help on another ski. I'm for me the most. Some of the okay, we need We need very tactic, Really. Consultant surgeons mean it Consultant in the city is very tactical specialties. Okay, we need that. But you also we also need very people who've got very broad on very lateral thinking. Skill set. I find sometimes if you become a consultant, if your cardiologists in the common joint and stuff No, we don't have echoes almost always. So sometimes we do. We don't have on angiogram. We don't have. We need to think people who think very much more outside the box for May I find that some people who do that the best of those you have three years experience of managers Still kind of naturally thinking there's still that probably better dining a specific specialty on because I have got kind of very broad scale special, maybe an emergency medicine general medicines in pediatrics on. But I also I always had. This is driving bad that you need to have people want to get some aware skills on. But, like, really gonna interviewing, you know, way in a spot from very specific, very tactical projects We don't We don't have ice use or reintabate. Yeah, your expertise that that we want to deliver a lot of places you need to have good advanced life support. Not 80 last but airless. Not instead of keep your good stead. So for me, it's it's about getting the basic skills. Um, getting a good get your foundation. Don't get in a year off, be that industry. Be that on down in the chest as maybe ordering. Been doing some emergency medicine gets, um, pediatrics. Yet we always end up seeing pediatrics, like doing a few months like six months is a pedia pediatric chemical fan or whatever. Maybe, And to me, those are the scales that you need to have us. We do need those very technical skills from certain skills, but and that's from an MSF perspective. I think if you're going off to a mission hospital somewhere as ah post after on your because I know in those contacts you'll be thrown in the deep end that there's an expectation you'd be able to do everything cause people will see you as this person coming from the UK savior that isn't holding skills on that is that's where these other people are probably talking about this. It's very gray, and it gets very, very murky on, Um, I think you have to back the question. Should you be going there? Um, so that's when I I think you should be. Then if you're generally interested to work in that in this environment, you should be going to them. MSF's the medicine demands the the matter of the other organizations you will actually support you and give you the structure to ensure that knew what you do is actually don't see me. That's really interesting. So it's just I'm just gonna attempt to very quickly clarify for listeners. If you're old and approaching finals like me, he will have heard all these times before. If you're perhaps either thinking about going to medical school or in your early is that medical school and you've not really thought about jobs yet, nor should you be doing? What Mark is essentially said is that he completed medical school, which would normally take you between four and six years, depending on whether you have degree or no. As marked did uh, he's then completed his foundation, one and foundation to as we all have to do on. Then he's done another year, uh, post graduate training, what is often called the F Y three, or maybe a fellowship year. You'll you'll hear it hurt as that could be spent doing a very wide range of things, and you're in that time. Mark also completed the first of his Post graduate collegiate exams, the MRC P, which would allow him to enter medical specialty training. So even though that sounds like a lot of things and it is, I don't mean to tear down play a tall within medical training that's still relatively junior to to get involved with something as kind of big and exciting and challenging as MSF. That's really encouraging, I think, to a lot of people. No, absolutely. And, um, the one kind of quick specialty that you could do would be GP training, which gives you a great range of skills and set you up really nicely for career global health on, but depends on what your ambition for career on global health is. Do you want to work only clinically? Fine. So I think getting the higher trend in the UK would make not that's what you should do. What's actually on global hot Korean go without doesn't mean that you were clinically. I don't work in a game with them and stuff anymore. I work in a bigger public health strategy. I manage huge programs. Um, on I don't really use my clinical work, Not much in my day to day job with them and stuff. I'm not excited anymore because I take a very big picture of public health approach to the challenges I face on. But you could sit in your career anywhere between the very, very fortunate clinical side to kind of what I do. There's a whole spectrum that you could do, but also you might go down. Advocacy really might just like speaking like these populations and get involved in politics and policy around that those endless, endless roots. But you can still keep 1 ft in the chest, which is important to remember on. But that's important because some I personally like to do that. I like to people a basic skill set because it gives them the connection to Teo people hands on, like clinical work. So it's a good combination. Just what? For you. And you said if I if I was listening correctly, which I hope I watch, you said you you were training as a staff grade in emergency medicine. Is that right? Yeah. So that's what I do. So protect us. A sense of technically have been signed off call medical training so I could go into higher level training on, but no, I work a stuff. A lot of it is one. Because there there's so much work, so you can pick up a lot of emergency medicine work for you easily. Well, the number two is that it does give you a very broad set off off skills. You know, you do about a pediatric emergency, but when you do it, But I don't notice, um, being gentle medicine. But a general surgical surgery, like stained such patients on all of everything in between. So it gives you that kind of just brought it keeps up broad skills and open, which is which is Ah, very nice kind of skill set you still have. Well, I I was going to ask, actually, because the last of these interviews chronologically, the last one we did, I don't know in which older and you have these episodes will be released. But the last interview I personally did for this Siris was was with Doctor Steven Homes. He set up this mountain rescue retrieval medicine service Onda. When we were speaking to him, it became clear that for their service, it was actually a very limited range of specialties that that they would accept things like an emergency medicine, anesthetics and so on. Um, if someone is thinking about coming to to MSF or a similar organization, it sounds a so there's a bit more scope for you can Oh, should people feel restricted in terms of the specialties they can pursue if they want to do global health as well? No, no. There's there's things global health relevance to all specialties that are available, not goes to through surgery, oncology, um, like orthopedics that the list actually palliative care is a big open coming topic because it's really underserved. Um, no, no, no. Literally everything. So if you've got an interesting you still okay, I do still want to be a palliative care of consultant. That's fantastic. You can still get him like there's still so much work to be done in positive current in in from a global health perspective on day so you could become a specialist or you could not. You could become a middle grade or staff grade and get enough experience in a certain specialty area. Like I'm I'm in charge of recruiting doctors. Never stuff. So I kind of best species on applications that come through. So for the other, for the for the doctors. So I do see the right range. And on what I look for, I look for people who control you should collect commitment of global house. So have you concertos the CB that are actually interested in this being through their electors through kind of work that dollars and F three through and extracurricular stuff have done? I look at all of these things and I look at the big picture and I and I understand the skill set that people get in there a chance. I go Looking great of Johnson Pediatrics that done some other medicine that down some emergency medicine I was like they could suit maybe the coma tropical medicine. So it's like bacon suit that could that could go work inside, sit down as a general, general doctor on, um So the clinical I cannot send in two ways I see it, you know, there's plenty of room on the sub specialists or absolutely on. We need people like that. We need people, got to develop very subspecialist policy around things. We also we also need the generalist to do the brunt of the work day to day. So there there's room for everybody. I think my big thing would be not to be put off. If if if your ambition is not to become a specialist, that is okay. No, you can have a full career builder. Health. I'm here to welcome you, but also, if you want to become a specialist, that's fantastic as well. We need your skills as well. So there's room for everybody from order in between. On diet really encourage people not to be put off because the last thing I will say this is I heard this over and over again. That No, no, no. You have to become a consultant. Infectious disease. Before you could do this other way other I I never I never described that on a credit and deep dive like when I was seeing, you know, I've been off for PhD positions to go part of my academic little fellowship that ever do an infectious disease and all of these things and well interested in nice to be kind of pushed by kind of world leaders to do these sort of things. That's deep, don't it did not resonate with me on Under John. You can make a choice. You could make a choice to not jump on that convertibility, but also have a few different feeling that diversified career. I think that's a key point to remember that you don't have a job or not conveyor belt that you were field from the moment you start F one, you will feel that on. Do you don't have to do that? Go to go along the trajectory great if you want to, but you don't have to on, but I think that is key on. Do keep an open mind I'm sorry. One more point is you latch onto the good advice that you here. I was told some great advice from various kind of dynamic people that I thought was anomic from a global health perspective. He worked in the in the chest. You give me the encouragement to go know, make your old path make your own specialist training pathway. Yeah, Nobody's gonna mean there's no sign on program. You sound ultra but you make your own way And I did that. And it has worked out really well for me and I could work out for any of you guys this stick on. So I would say, Listen to the advice that you really resonate with for the stuff that's, you know, you really deep, you know, you don't agree with one of the side, forget about it. And that's really important. Kid Trudeau. What's true to you? That's what that's really, really encouraging. And like I say, I think a bit more broad scope than what I've heard from a lot of global health physicians and surgeon before. But the change tack slightly people, because I I realized that I didn't ask this, but it's probably pertinent is that everything that you've described, at least on shop floor sounds very exciting and very stimulating and very valuable. It also sounds very challenging politically, mentally, physically. A little rest of it, I suppose if if I oh, one of my colleagues was to become an MSF doctor, what are the, um I guess what? What are the challenges we should expect to face or what should we prepare ourselves for? That? The obvious challenge will be the, um maybe that the sense of being overwhelmed and you're in a certain place? It's not always the same as they were working. 74 countries are working very, very diverse places. Some that you're some setting setting, which might not be that different. What? You're Houston in a chest. Some would be the portal opposite. Hola, Polar opposite. You could be in a refugee camp in in rural Afghanistan or subsidize on in the hospital 72 million people where you have 150 Children percent in every day and have a mortality rate off 10 12 15% of your Children. So you're so in your ward, right? So that so that feeling of being overwhelmed. But it comes back to like knowing the breath of what you're able to do, what you cannot do on acknowledging what you can do that is okay on on the resupport there at least with an MSF to help you with those challenges. Well, one of the big things is, Well, we'll be the just depends on where you work with maybe the amount of death that you might see I worked in socks. It done. And, um, I still still moved to this. This to know about this was four years ago. Um, not some of the things that I saw there huge a challenging, um, you know, during the water on multiple Children would die in your morning. Would want on D on down Some of the things that go with that, um, or parents daggon you to send that or distant distort your child. You know, it's not gonna get better because it's cheaper to get transport for a live child to be transported home in a day on the article challenges. And you finished the port. Should I continue treatment, or should I stop treatment and not this time, a click a hole in their life the very sick child, but they're still alive so they can diet home. Yeah, um, this is a lot of sometimes ethical and sometimes very emotional challenge is that you face, and especially around the after supper, mind when do you stop terminate what you can do what, what before you can go and that there's nothing that really can prepare you for that. But but the key thing is that this so much support with an MSF to help you through that I want to help me through those decisions. You you will never be the one you'll never be left to make. These ultimate decision on your own doesn't never, never, never. There's always help. Available on on that goes along with the psychological support is 1 24 hour, um, psychology support available at all times. Andan. That's even when you come home weight that continues when you be beyond working, whatever country that waas um, so I think that it's like talking to us. Many people who have been through these experiences and, for example, and stuff can can set that up for you when you talk to people who have already experiencing these. These scenarios to on that can make that can help your very specific things on. But going in with that open mind on knowing that you well, FIS this difficulties and knowing that you shouldn't, like, just blossom up inside on, you know, and and now try to recognize coping mechanisms of how you cope with adversity. I'm working on that left. One kind of develops the basics of that because you come across the standards. That's enough. One. Onda. I think it's trying to learn how you cope with problems, and I'm trying to develop strategies early on or hard to overcome stress and dealer stress on what they offer you. I'm hoping not just drinking, because you do see that a lot, but it's just not helpful. Um, and then perhaps as a as a final and slightly more cheery no, no turn, don't know. It's all right. It's It's really important, right? Like I can all the way through this interview that has been in the back of my mind. I was thinking I convey EEG. We see these people who are, you know, the isolated. They're far away from home. They're working in extremely tough conditions and usually these programs? Um, I can't speak for MSF, but certainly from what I've been exposed to you, they will. Often they want single on married people without Children who are relatively young because that's going to make you know that that process easier psychologically. Um, but I was thinking, you know, these people are going to need some serious psychological support when things go wrong, but it's it's really good to hear that there is a structure. Um, but as a as a final, I'm talking point. Forgive me, What would you say? And this is a tough question. But is the If you could take away one single Golden most important message from your career so far that you would like to share with our audience or one year pearl of wisdom? What would you say? Yeah, I know it's there. Don't listen to the people who said you can't have a career like this because you were told it time on time and time again, you would get laughed up. Um, I got last laugh that, um, in February 2021 ask her where you gonna get a real job in damages. I was like, No, I look out for a port 40 or 30 million years on day, so yeah. So, um, yeah, I don't listen to the people who say you can't If this is what you want to do, go for it like, really go for it. Because those endless opportunities out there endless on D. Yeah. You'll have clinical supervisor, maybe education. Education surprises. Like laughing. You're saying that's not a real job. You know, you you have to become excellent. Was that do you stick to your guns on? But listen to what you believe in? Know what you believe in yourself? I think that's that's the biggest thing I would say and encourage people. The second part of it could have a second part would be we talked to people who you may be admire or anything would get what you're trying to do. And I always encourage people, even with enemas, MSF kind of more junior people who have joined the organization. He's retired to me, it could be 23 years down the line. I really like help people all in the career, So if you ever meet somebody or here or somebody that could try help, you reach out to them, You know, don't be afraid to ask if they don't get back to your fine reach out to the next person. Going to be persistent. It does? Sure. What? What a place to end that that is a spectacular, spectacular advice, Onda. We will make sure that all of the relevance information for MSF and all of the very exciting and very worthwhile humanitarian projects but it works on will be available. Thank you so much for joining us tonight, Doctor. Mark. Sherlock, it's been thanks for having me. It was enjoyable in no problem. Thank you, everybody for coming and listening to this latest episode in our virtual elective around the world. Ah, greetings on salutations. Once again, from all of us here working on behalf off medal Hope you've enjoyed this episode and please stay tuned for future episodes between me and Aqua will be speaking to to a whole host of really exciting people, Doctor martial art now among them, Of course. Thanks, Mark. Take care