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Right. Ok. Yeah, hi, everyone. And we might just get started. We appreciate your joining us on your Friday evening. So, thank you for coming. Um My name is Elizabeth and my colleague, Andrea and I both represent uh Moynihan Academy this evening. Um, this series sort of started, um, after a conversation between two of us, we were doing uh a talk for the four seasons for a UBI about career pathways and as part of our fail career journeys, we both had maternity leave at various points. Um, in our career, I had maternity leave out of training as a teaching fellow and, and had her maternity leave as an ACP and we were discussing about it didn't really matter which part of your training or otherwise you were in when this happened. Um, but there was always a little bit shrouded in mystery and there were certainly things that we didn't really know until we'd lived it. So we thought it might be helpful for other trainees, other people who are wanting a or otherwise to have a little bit more information on this topic. And, and so our Family Masters and Surgery series was born, um, as you will know our session, one is gonna be related to pregnancy and parental leave. Um And we've got excellent speakers this evening from different perspectives. Yep, Michael is our first speaker um to, to give us their perspective on, on these things. So without further ado, um I'll pass you over to Michael. He is an ST eight working in Bristol currently and more importantly as our, oh, sorry Michael, I've, I've updated him and working in Bristol, but more importantly, he's our Mo Academy president this year. Um We're very lucky to have him um doing a talk this evening as you might be spotted if you had joined us a little bit earlier. He is a very busy father. Um and he's gonna speak to us um about uh parental leave uh from his perspective. So Michael, thank you so much for joining us and, and please feel free to start. Yeah. Uh I have now lost the option to share my screen. That was me. No, I'm normally good with tech. I don't know what's happened. There we go. Mhm. So, while Michael is trying to work that out, I'll say hello as well. My name is Andrea. I'm an ST four next week and I have a two year old toddler. Um So we hope you find this helpful. As Elizabeth said, we have three talks and we're gonna be sending out a lot of information afterwards. Um in terms of um websites we can visit and, um, further links. Uh, and yeah, there's also gonna be AQ and a session towards the end. So we hope you enjoy Michael you up. Yes. Awesome. Uh, thank you for having me and, um, let me do a little bit about paternity leave. Um, and actually I'm gonna talk a little bit about different types of leave that, uh, we're all entitled to as well. Um, so I'm gonna start with a little video. Um, so I, I'm a dad of three general surgery registrar in South West. I'm president of the Ma. Um And I feel like life is always really, really busy and work eats, you know, 80 90% of your day to day capacity. Um And there are lots of things that get in the way of family life. Uh But I think it's really important to try and focus on that. So, um I will start, hey, I've heard that if you pack your backpack, I've her backpack right for now. Start hiking, hike about a mile on your camping spot. Set up your tent, pull up your air mattresses, your sleeping bag, set up your chairs, have some dinner together. Hm. Start a fire, set up a few colorful lights, lay down and look at the stars. Goodnight Becca. Love you. Wake up, go for a little adventure play, follow the leader, throw some rocks in the water, go for a challenging hike. Stop for a breather. Give a piggyback. Yeah. And if you do these things, you'll create some lasting memories. Um, so I've got three little ones, uh, a seven year old, a four year old and a two year old. Um, and uh we, you know, we've had challenges with, with each one of the kids and some more fun than others. Um, and they've also been always, always great times. Um, so on to Atle. Uh, so basically there's this huge chunk of tax on, on uh the NHS er kind of parental leave document um about the different types of potential leave, but I'm just gonna kind of zoom into a few specifics. Um So the first bit is applying for pat leave. So basically, uh your, your partner uh will get the map B1 er form and you essentially need to give that to work um and give it to um you know, your, your managers um and also give them an estimated due date and then that will help them, you know, start planning. Um paternity leave can be taken on as a so you gotta take it all in a, in a row and you can take up to two weeks and it has to be 56 days uh from birth. Um And uh a week, interestingly, they, they've put this caveat that a week is defined as your usual working pattern. So let's say that if you were less than full time or you had other other commitments, then work would take you a week, let's say you only worked Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, then a week for you would be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Um So it's defined as your usual working pattern. Um There are different types of leave that is that is afforded to you as a parent. Um So basically these two photos were quite a different uh uh different points for me. So the first was uh our oldest basically had a quite severe head injury at nursery um and got this wonderful donut. Um And we were told to kind of observe him for 24 hours. Um And I was act one and um essentially I just left it to the missus and I was like, II can't miss work. Um And the second is our middle child when II kind of feel like he was faking it, but he did have a bit of a temperature and he kind of just wanted to watch TV. But he, you know, he, he, he probably was unwell. Um But it was the first time that I felt empowered enough to say to work, look, you know, he's not, well, I can't take him to nursery. I've gotta, I've gotta watch him at home. Um And the difference in that was really just kind of reprioritization. I'll, I'll come to that at the end. Um And realizing that you have as much entitlement to looking after your Children in their time of need. And I looked back. And II always remember the, the first, you know, with the head injury that, that should have been two parents looking after him, you know, taking shifts. Um, and you know, there are many regrets but II think this is one that I won't, you know, make that same mistake. So, um, you are entitled to carers leave or special leave. Um, and this is where, you know, you can look after your partner, Children or parents. Um, and you get up to one week paid. Uh, so five days, well, that's five days paid leave and if you were on call, you would still get that. Er, the, it's like taking sick leave, essentially you'd still get the premium associated with that. Um, and the leave can be extended. Um, they can do these ad hoc one off, uh, kind of carer leave days as well. Um, but that's at the discretion of management and you are entitled to take as much unpaid parental leave as required, um, uh, to look after your, your loved ones. Um, yeah. So these are three and then basically, basically we, uh, we had, uh, I had a really good educational supervisor in F one that, that's when I had our first was just at the end of F one. and he basically told me that the NH SS will take the best years of your life and take the best moments to. And I've always tried to hold on to that, um, there is one more bit of leave, uh, which is parental leave, which is kind of different from maternity to maternity leave. Um, and this is kind of unpaid leave, uh, that you can take up to 18 weeks in a year. Um, and you need to give quite a lot of notice to try and plan this. Uh, so at least 20 day, 21 days notice but, you know, you can, you can factor this in. So some of the shocks for me have, have been looking at er, schools and how start in schools and you realize that you know, we we had a three week introduction period for our middle child uh that we've just gone through um and I had to take leave to be able to accommodate, you know, the half days in and and the the random you know, mornings that he goes in um up until him going in properly. So um having an awareness of what leave is available to you is actually really useful. So parental leave can be used for uh settle in kids to school, change of kind of uh caring arrangements. Um If you wanted to spend more time with your child, you can you can book that um and as long as your child is under the age of five, then you're you're allowed to do that. Alright. Um yeah that was gonna be my ending slide but I kind of skipped too far. But you, oh, things that helped. So there are a couple of Facebook groups that I've been part of that, I've found really, really useful. Um So for black dads out there, dope, Black Dads on Facebook is just talking about, you know, some of the type that are thrown on dads and how you can, how you can uh work through those uh position dad me group is awesome. Uh It's just dads who talk about the nerdy things we get our kids to do. Um And medic mums and dads is like a godsend. Um For some reason, we keep our stuff really, really nice and sell it for really, really cheap. And then the positive birth company were amazing and uh we use lots of their resources. So I think that is me. Thank you so much, Michael. I think that's really helpful. Um sort of overview of, of what potentially looks like when you're in surgical training. And as we always discuss, I think in the Emy that the importance of putting life first um over the job despite it being a very rewarding job. So thank you for that. Um So next up everyone, we have our second speaker of the evening, Miss Helen Hawkins, she's an S ta in the northeast um and has lots of experience of pregnancy and, and out of training. Um And that's what she's kindly offered to share with us this evening. So Helen, I pass over to you Thank you. It'll just take me five seconds to share my screen. Ok. See, here we go. Ok. So as um Elizabeth said, I am an ST in the northeast, I say because it's not been a straightforward journey. Um I've titled This Where To Start. Um Having almost survived in surgical training despite the complications of repeated pregnancy, I've said this is a case report because obviously this is uh just my experience and trying to fit 13 years of experience and feelings and um how we can all learn from that um is going to be quite tricky in 10 minutes. So I'm going to start here, which is where we're going to end because um I just really want you to take home that um becoming a parent in whatever way you become a parent, um is absolutely life changing beyond what you can imagine. Um Obviously, um when we talk about pregnancy rather than other ways you become a parent, um there's the physical changes which yeah. Wow. Is number one was dramatic. Number two was more dramatic and number three was nearly the end of me. So, um there's that and um the emotional things. So um welcome to guilt is what I would say about that and how that makes you feel and um the emotions of the hormones if you are pregnant is um quite a roller coaster. And then obviously life changing with your career because you have a career break that maybe you haven't had before. Um, and your career takes maybe a slightly different path or the speed at which you're progressing changes and maybe your thoughts and feelings about what you aspire to changes and your priorities definitely do. Um, my absolute most important thing is be kind to yourself. You maybe because hopefully it's a different generation now, you may be able to understand this more and take well, being more seriously and not feel as though becoming pregnant is some kind of thing that you have to make up for and you have to overcompensate and you have to prove yourself all of these things are damaging and whether they um whether you find that they're damaging at the time and you become overtired, you become unwell, there's a problem in your pregnancy or whether the wheels come off years later when you feel as though your job has taken away moments like Michael alluded to before. Um So think about others, think about how you would want your friends and family to be treated and what you would want them to feel empowered to do to be able to look after themselves in the most precious time. Um So yeah, be kind to yourself. It's really, really, really important and um it takes a village, don't worry about asking for help, be collegiate be collaborative, really, really take all the best from everybody that will offer you support and also offer their experiences. You may think Crikey, I'm never going to do that, but I can tell you this life changing time you're going to have you, you may not even recognize yourself afterwards. Go with it, embrace it and just accept that things are different. So, er, back in the mid nineties, I hope you can see the text at the bottom. This is a little quote from the first episode of cardiac arrest surgery and motherhood are incompatible that, er, rather unpleasant. I say, gentlemen, I don't mean it, um, chap on the side there is a hideous man and he's bullying and harassing his, uh, house officer. Um, because she's mother, obviously times have moved on. We hope and this was not actually when I started my training, it feels as though it could be 30 years ago, but it's not. And, uh, I'll take you to the time where I did, um, start my training. So I was ct one in 2010. I'd been with my other half for 10 years. We'd been married for a year and, uh, we decided that there was no perfect time to have a baby, which I still attest to it is correct. There's no perfect time. Um, but we felt as though it was time for us. Um, we felt very ready. I had done those things that you needed to achieve the international presentation, the writing a paper atl S basic surgical skills. I'd passed half of my MRC S and I was ready to take the next half and I knew there'd be challenges, but, uh, I felt ready to face them. Um, the reason why I'm here sharing my experience is because I believe that if you're forewarned, you're forearmed. Unfortunately, there was no role models for me. Um, there was a professor of pediatric surgery in Australia who said to me that my partner needed to be 100% on board because they were basically going to be the parent and I was going to tip up now and then to see the Children if I wanted to do surgery, I was told that um, oh, that there is a surgeon when I was a, an F one, a lady surgeon in my hospital who um had had two Children amazingly and um, she'd had two weeks maternity leave with both of them. And um then I had to register much more close to when I actually had my first child who said, don't do it. Absolutely. Do not do surgery. If you want to be a mother, just don't do it. So this is the kind of role modeling or information I was given and I just, I know things have changed, but I want them to continue changing with increased pace. So surgical training is tough enough. We all know all those bits of training that are so difficult. Um And pregnancy basically magnifies all of those difficulties. The reason why I'm saying all of this to you is not to make it sound miserable. But I just want you to understand that you're not meant to find it easy. Some people will fly through and they will just look as though there, you know, able to walk on water like they're pregnant, they're doing everything, they're writing papers, they're presenting, they're the people that are the creme de la creme like flying doing things that the ordinary folk like me um find difficult and I'm just here representing ordinary I would say. And like I said, when I first started this journey of having Children, there weren't people for me to see. So all these things like women in surgery and all these hugely inspiring people you see, it's incredible, but it can make you feel a little bit uneasy that maybe you should be doing more. And I think the message that Michael's given about don't let it take those moments is so important. Uh So, um things I talked about the physical, emotional and the career things of um of being pregnant. So you're gonna do nights, you're gonna struggle to sleep in the day. Like really think about these things when I was pregnant with number one, I was doing four month rotations. I was at or in orthopedics at one hospital when I found out I was pregnant, I was overjoyed cos I hated lead gowns and it gave me a good reason to not join in basically. So I did loads of other stuff, um like doing the trauma clinic and things while my colleagues got to go and play with um power tools. And that was great and we were all happy and it was that thing of like your colleagues and you working together to work it out. Um But also just, I said I wasn't going to do nights after 26 weeks. And I, um I contacted the next job, which was going to be my general surgery job. And I said, can you front load my nights so that I don't have nights towards the end of the job. Cos amazingly, I'd managed to get pregnant. So I was due in August. Um, so I finished my year's rotation and went on maternity leave, which is incredible, but they left my name on the ROTA and it said Helen's nights basically and they were at 34 weeks. I think it was, it was a job where the reg wasn't on site. Um, I could have been on maternity leave then or I could be having a baby. And I really felt as though them leaving my name on that rota and not, and they were unwilling to pay a locum to cover it. Um, and then a female surgeon who had got Children herself, walked into the theater. I was in while I was holding a camera for lap Coly, I think it was walked into theater and said, um, why can't she do her nights to the surgeon that I was operating with. This is not to be repeated as in, do not let people speak to people like that. If you are witnessed anything like that, please speak up. Um Next. So, so I was 34 week in my first pregnancy, 35 weeks, I think actually, and I was still doing 12 hour on call days. Um, and hopefully people had kind of shut down the one of the surgeons shut down the corridor. Oh, you've got the waddle on today and it was true. But I was just so concerned with like proving myself and I'm still capable and I can. Yeah, so um that didn't work out too great for me. Um I did gain some new skills. Um Not sure this is one that really I take to work now. But uh um hypno birthing, I went to Hypno be thing. I think I still think it's like one of the most amazing things I've ever done. Michael had on the bottom of his slide, the positive parenting thing. Um These are things that you take with you for life. So hip, no birthing the techniques you use. I actually talk to patients about that kind of in my day to day work. Um and it can be used for all births, cesareans, assisted births and when babies pop out in the car on the way to the hospital. So um yeah, just a little shout out of something really different and I did it on purpose and I think pregnancy or having a child lets you just kind of step away from our normal surgical working lives and just do something really quite different. Uh, so I talked about how I did those lifts later on in my pregnancy. This is how I ended up on my maternity leave. So I didn't move from that fat sack pretty much all day long if I wanted to at all, walk around in the evening with my husband or if I'd been out in the day to like maybe do the shopping, something really similar. That's how I'd end up at night. Just sat there marooned on the fat sack basically. Um Oh, this is a quick jump into um my first maternity leave. So I was going to be that superhero that did all of those things during maternity leave such as at six weeks, I was part of a review of a local hospital that was essentially failing it, trainees and causing massive problems. Um, and I went as the rep for junior doctors in the whole of the Deanery to sit on this review panel and I sat there with leaky boobs, just dripping milk everywhere. Not sure it did me any good. It was, it was a good experience in some ways, but for a lovely email from the post graduate dean. Probably not life changing and I probably didn't need to do it. I ate my lunch, sat in a toilet cubicle whilst pumping baby juice. It really, I wouldn't recommend it. Uh, pregnancy number two. So you think the tiredness and all of those things of number one is tricky and then you get hit with number two, it doesn't get easier. Look after yourself in the first one because you need to learn those skills for when you really need them. And, uh, just a little, er, a little picture of number three, this was the scan photo tool, scan photo and I can say that's pretty much what number three did to me. Um, so I said about my pelvis in number one, I ended up marooned on the fat sack. Pregnancy number two, I used to drive home from work and not be able to get out of the car, um, but carried on. Um, and then pregnancy number three at 24 weeks, I couldn't sit, I couldn't stand, I couldn't walk. II just couldn't do anything. I couldn't sleep. It was totally miserable. And I truly believe that that was because II didn't look after myself the first time, the second time and early on in the third time. So please, please take this seriously. This took me years to get over and I think is quite a lot of reason why I found training so difficult because I feel as though, um, there was lots of things that, that happened around pregnancy and maternity leave and returning to work that just by number three, I'd really, really found it tremendously challenging. So back to what I said, we can, we want to take away from this and what I want you all to like carry on into the future. This is going to be life changing, physically, emotionally and your career. The most important thing you can do is be forewarned. That means talking to people about it being really open. Um Also you see your colleagues as starting families or something, ask them what you can do to help them. They may not ask you for help because they don't want to be seen as not being capable if you can do that, if you can ask them, is there anything that you need? Is there anything do you know what you put in? You will always gain so much more out. So you be kind to yourself by being kind to others and when you find it difficult to advocate for yourself, just change your mindset and say hang on a minute. I'm doing this for my future colleagues. I'm doing this for my current colleagues and I'm doing it for the health of the future generations. OK? Um And it really does take a village. Um you need help in all aspects and from all different people. And um behind every good surgeon is the one who counts. Obviously, we, we think about this as being the theater team and keeping us safe in theater, but it, you can't do this career on your own and you need your colleagues, you need your loved ones at home. You need everyone to be on that journey with you because it really is going to be a challenge. So here's my email address. I'm happy for anyone to ask me any questions at all whatsoever. Um I've got pages and pages of things I wanted to put in this talk today, but I'm sure I'm well over 10 minutes and, um, I won't have said half the things I want to say, but just be prepared for the unexpected. It's gonna be a roller coaster, but it is absolutely the best ride having those little people around as your own little cheerleaders. So good luck, everyone can. I just say thank you so much, Helen for sharing like a really like honest view of what that's like. Um And so thank you so much and we will open up the floor to questions just after our last speaker as well. So please, if you have any questions for Helen and keep until then. And thank you again for that. So our, our last speaker of the evening is Miss Riannon Richards. She's an um in general surgery and currently works in the Yorkshire region where she is the leadership fellow for support and she is coming uh to talk to us today about the practicalities of pregnancy and surgical team and a bit about um the practicality of applying for parental leave as well. So thank you so much for joining us, Rhianna. Over to you. Thank you very much just going into try and sure, let me know if everybody can see it. So I don't know if I can move this. Let's put it that. So it's been a while since I had my kids. They're now 10 and seven. So back when I was training and returning to work, it felt like I was the first surgical trainee that was pregnant ever. Um But I think actually that's the experience of lots of people. And the reason that I've kind of found out more about it has been because I keep getting contacted by TPD S or um educational supervisors within the Yorkshire region because of my role in supportive return to training. And they tend to say, um my trainees pregnant, what do I need to do? Or their surgical trainee is asking I fe I'm pregnant, I still want to work as a surgeon. What do I need to do? And there isn't much information out there or role models as Helen said out there. Um that really show you what you need and it could be done a whole lot better. It's also that as a group, we're quite high risk. So surgeons in general tend to have their Children later. And in these, these were surveys that have been done rather than kind of trials. Cos obviously you can't do that. Um But we have a higher rate of pregnancy complications, miscarriage and that may be related to us having Children later in life. But it, it's something that we need to do properly. Um And I think my take home message is really just the, this should be the case anyway, but especially if you are a pregnant surgeon, you and your unborn baby are the priority, not the hospital's rota not, I mean, your parent, your patients are still important, but you really do need to be kind to yourself. So I wanted to talk about things that should be happening that obviously if you don't know that they should be happening, it's quite hard to ask for them. But if you are a pregnant employee, then you need to have a risk assessment that is normally done by your line manager. Often that is your educational supervisor and they may not know what they're doing. Um Sometimes it's somebody in hr but basically that should be as soon as you have told them. And it's entirely up to you whether you wait until your 12 week scan to tell them or if you're like me and throwing up all the time, it's very hard to consider it until 12 weeks. So you might need to tell somebody sooner. But when you have that discussion, so that's gonna be things like, are you exposed to x rays? How can we protect you so that you are not in a situation where that happens. That's harder for orthopedic trainees. Um, but there'll be a radiation safety officer and you speak to them, um, things like not getting exposed to formalin other chemicals within theater, being able to have rest, particularly if you're tired and sick all the time, you may need to temporarily come off night shifts. Certainly for people who've had IVF or recurrent miscarriages. Actually, maybe you need to come off the on call rota altogether. And everybody's experience of that is different as a pregnant trainee or just a pregnant employee, you're entitled to adjustments. Um According to your risk assessment and the thing I would say, because I was very dizzy with all of mine. Um is that most operations can be done sitting down. It's completely convention that we don't do it, but it's possible to do a LA co you sat on like an ent stool, you can sit down to do a hernia. Um just because we don't do it doesn't mean you can't do it. And I had, I was lucky enough to have some really good bosses that accommodated me in terms of your antenatal care. You are entitled to paid time off to attend your appointments and that includes things like pregnancy, yoga or any fitness classes that are antenatal specifically. Um Your partner, if you have one is entitled to pay time off to come to two appointments with you. And that can be things like your 20 week scan um or any other appointments that you you have throughout your journey, we've already seen this form. This is a map B1 form and you get given this after your 20 weeks scan cos that's when they have a, that's when you get your dates. Um this needs to be handed in into your employer. Um And there's a bit on the back that is to do with your parental leave. Um It's also uh if you are a trainee, then you should also be contacting your diary to say this is my due date. This is when I expect to have time out of training. You need to speak to J CST and let them know. Um and you can be waived some of the fees for various professional organizations. So it's worth speaking to them if you know you're having time out. Um Like I say, if you need to tell people sooner because you can't conceal it, then that's absolutely fine. But you absolutely have to legally tell your employer 15 weeks before your due date. So that's probably 25 weeks of pregnancy. The other people that it's worth talking to if you are a trainee in England is supposed to return to training. Um and they are who I've been working for in Yorkshire for the last year. They were set up in 2017 to provide resources to reduce the disadvantage that trainees face when they come back into training and they have a different provision in each area of England, but each area of England is given money for this and this part of money can be used for things like having a supernumerary period when you come back. So you don't start on nights. Um We recommend enhanced supervision. So you, when you have, if you have a year off, you'll probably get some fade of your skills. And it makes sense to have a period of time to kind of re skill. There's support courses, but there's also funding for courses or webinars, some of that stuff you can probably do from home with your baby. And most regions in England have a support champion in the trust. If you're returning to a trust and they're someone who can help you organize meetings with your supervisor to talk about what you're going to need in terms of the structure of that. And when you would make contact, if you know you're gonna have time out and this can be for things like out of program experience or research as well as pregnancy, you would then have a pre absence meeting when you know that you're gonna have time out. And that's when you, they, you give them your contact details and think about what you might need coming back in. Once you've had your time out, you then have another meeting about two months before you come back with your either TPD or a S and that is to discuss. Do you need to do any simulation courses? Are there any conferences you want to go to? Do you need a period of supernumerary when you return? Are you going to be bread breastfeeding? Some people are no longer doing night shifts if they're breastfeeding and their baby's quite small. And that's something that's didn't exist when I went back to work. But, but I know people within the surgery that are doing that now. So it's to think about that. And then you have a review at the end of that process for those of you that aren't in England, there's actually um joint college guidance on this that was published in 2017 about return to practice. And if you are struggling to find evidence for trying to plan your return, that's a quite a useful document that has forms and things that should be considered. And it came about kind of in the advent in the aftermath of the Bawa Gaba case. There was a lot of looking into skills f and how people returned. So that's a useful publication. If you're trying to say, actually, it's not right for me to start on a night shift, it's not appropriate for me to start an on call. I need this period of time to skill. Now we've already touched on parental leave. Um Having been out twice, I still find it really confusing, but basically in the UK, you get 52 weeks parental leave 39 weeks. So that is paid. And then during the time that you take and you don't have to take the 52 weeks, you will accrue annual leave that gets tagged onto the end. Normally, there are different types of pay for th that leave. If you are in continuous service and have been for more than a year, then you can get occupational maternity pay and that is full pay for eight weeks, half pay for 18 weeks. And then after that, you go onto statutory maternity pay for a further 13 weeks and then 13 weeks unpaid at the end S MP is if you're not eligible for occupational maternity pay, but you have had continuous service and your employer will, will pay you it. Then you can claim that that's only six weeks at 90%. So it's significantly less money. Um And if you uh have just been lowing and you're not eligible for SNP, then you can claim maternity allowance. Um, your hr department will know more about this. And there are useful websites like the BMA S um maternity pay calculator, which is really useful because this does feel like a bit of a minefield. The other thing to add to the minefield that I don't think we've touched on is that it's now possible to share parental leave with your partner and you can share parental pay with your partner. And the way that that works is that the I think someone mentioned that there was a surgeon that had two weeks maternity leave. That's because the first two weeks is compulsory, you were not allowed to work for two weeks. So the rest of the 50 weeks that you could take can actually be split between both parents and that can either be one after another or you can take leave concurrently or you can take it in alternating blocks. Um And again, you would share the pay now with SNP and O MP. It makes more sense for the mother or the childbearing parent to take at least the first six weeks if it's for SNP, because you get paid much more and sure parental pay is less. So it's quite complicated. There are websites that can help you look at work it out, but it's worth knowing that it exists. If you might want to share that with your partner, they can get potentially more than just the two weeks. The accrued annual leave is normally taken in a block at the end. But I have met people who've used it to kind of come back for a couple of days, take a couple of days leave and almost be less than full time. Um by doing that when they're easing back into work. The other consideration is whether or not you want to work less than full time and in most regions, that is something that can take kind of 3 to 6 months. So it's something to think about early on in your parental leave. I went back full time after my first and I didn't see him at all for about three months and then went less than full time and I've been less than full time ever since and he's now 10. Um, so it feels like the best thing I've ever done in terms of work life balance. It doesn't work for everybody. But if you're thinking you might do that, then talk to your TPD and get the ball rolling. The other thing it's worth knowing about is that you are entitled to 10 kit days and they are keeping in touch days. It's not just for doctors or surgeons, they are something that you are entitled to in the UK, you can use them for anything that helps you get back into your profession. So that could be time spent popping into work, scrubbed in, in theater, going to a conference, doing some virtual courses from home. You can use it for activity when you bring your baby with you. As long as you are doing some sort of work, they have to be agreed with your employer in advance. Um And you are paid normally an hourly rate. If you only did two hours, it would still count as a day. And if you take more than 10 days then your parental event, so they're quite strict about that. But it is worth thinking about. Is there anything that you want to do that would be useful. Um, and not planning it before you go off because it's quite overwhelming. But, but being aware that they are there for you to take, you don't have to take 10. I don't think I did. But the certainly the second time around I went and got up into the theater for half a day. Um, and then went back home again and that really helped kind of the integration process if you're taking shared parental leave, then on top of the 10 kit days, you're entitled to 20 split between you. So again, those can be used for the same things and the same rules apply. That's a bit of a whistle stop tour through the kind of mechanics of getting adjustments if you're on if you're pregnant and the return process and lead process. Um My key points are really that you matter, looking after yourself matters and there are now structures in place to support you and people who are there to help you out. Um And I would totally agree that information is power and can really help you plan, well, plan your parental leave as well as planning your return. And thank you so much Dannon for that. I think even having gone through process myself fairly recently, there's a lot of that I don't think I even appreciated. Um So it's really helpful to sort of have um er um advice on that and going forward. Certainly, I'll be different changes if I ever have a, another child. Um, I hope everyone enjoyed, um, our sessions this evening and we're not going to open up the floor to questions, feel free, um, to put your video on and, and ask us, or if you feel more comfortable putting some questions on the chat, then, um, you have all of our speakers here, Michael Helen and Rhiannon, um, and also myself and re as well. If you have any questions at all, please feel free to pop them in just now. Yeah, when you go make her. Um, so with the shared parental leave, I've, we've, we've always kind of struggled to work out kind of strategies and, and the best way to utilize it. So just clarifying for that for those six weeks, the, the maternity pay pays more. But afterwards, does it continue at kind of similar, uh d does it kind of reach a similar financial point? So not an expert on this? Um, the guidance that I found was for people who are on statutory maternity pay and I, in that for six weeks, you get 90% of your salary. And then after that, it's just the statutory pay. That is what you get on your share parental pay. I think if you were both doctors, then II ask your hr department, I think I know that's a bit of a cop out, but I don't want to tell anybody the wrong thing. Um, you certainly get more if you have occupational maternity pay. Um, so that's worth way more than just the statutory. Um, and I think you can probably share it if you're both doctors. But I would want to double check that rather than tell everybody. Yes, this is absolutely fine. Um, your partner can, so you can take the paternity leave at the beginning of that and then go on to the shared parental leave that doesn't affect your paternity leave entitlement anyway. Um, it's probably worth sharing it for the bit when you're just on the SNP that 13 weeks or the 13 weeks unpaid, I think. But you can take, your partner can take that at the same time as you're on your first bit because it doesn't have to be kind of one and then the other you can, as long as you don't use more than your entitlement in that. Yeah, you can kind of take it whenever you like and there's any combination that you can use. I'd want to check with an hr department. He'll probably say to start off with it. I don't know. The only thing I forgot to say about occupational maternity pay is if you do decide that you don't want to go back to work afterwards, you have to pay it back. You do not have to pay back SNP or maternity allowance, but you have to return to work for at least three months. Otherwise you have to pay back the O MP. Can I add a followup question? Oh, sorry. How long you were gonna go? Oh, I, oh no, it's a follow on one. I just going to have any of you had conversations about sharing paternity, uh, sharing maternity leave. And how did that, how did that go? Cos uh I II tried to put a petition in, you know, I gave her the evidence of how I could be, you know, doing all the drop offs and everything and it was quickly, quickly rejected. Um, but yeah, how, how have any of you had those conversations if I have it either? I have. Yeah, I do have a male colleague, um, who's taken it though, parental leave, I think three months. Um, so it does happen. Um, but I haven't personally had those conversations, I think, um, when we had our, our first child. Um, I just, I just was totally amazed that I had just one thing to think about cos after being at work and, you know, doing nights or whatever and you're thinking about 20 different things at a time having just one thing to concentrate on was amazing. And I felt as though I knew her inside out, upside down the wrong way around, like she just made a little movement and I knew what to do and then I kind of gifted my husband this like, you know, at one year or whatever when I went back to work. And um, I think he thought it was easy, very easy. And he fancied a bit of that. And then when number two came along, there was a bit of a chat of like, oh, shall, shall I have some leave? And then, and then his life changed dramatically when number two came along cos suddenly he had a child to look after as well. So there's two of you two Children. And when number three came along, he was like, you can have it, don't worry about it, you can do it. And he's an amazing dad and he does everything for the Children. And um Fr CS proved that, you know, it was, it was um, II wasn't petitioned strongly by my husband to have that leave, but it's so much more normal now, um, that I think actually had, we had number one now where more people know about it, more people are doing it. I think you would have, well fancied a bit of that and as having some time together probably would have been absolutely amazing. So kind of having the end of, of my maternity leave. Him, having some shared parental leave would have been absolutely amazing. Um And that's something I'd I'd hugely consider, but it kind of minimizes the time that you're not then paying for childcare though, which I'm afraid. Now the um I was, I was going to say like when I had child, number one, when we're talking about maternity pay and stuff. As soon as I found out I was pregnant, I said, right. That's it. I'm going to live off. What is statutory maternity pay to see what it's, it's like, and I squirreled away money and like, we had this pot of money to, like, do things in my maternity leave. Child two comes along. You can't do that. You've, you've been paying for childcare, one child at least. And then, like, now I don't think we could afford that. Now, the cost of living has changed so much in the past 10 years and, um, things really are different for people and unless you're hugely privileged, it's going to actually not be easy. So I have a real good think about what you can do to make that maybe easier for yourselves because there will be people here. I'm sure thinking how the heck do you afford not to get paid? And that thing of planning to return and regretting coming back earlier, I, I'd hate that feeling and so I always plan to have as much time, um, maternity leave as, as possible and, but I understand that, you know, I wasn't hugely privileged. II, but I could as act one, like with my husband, I live, live quite easily on quite a bit less money than you can. Sorry. Helen, I'm just gonna, sorry. Yeah. Um, I totally agree with what you're saying. Um, I just think we have a very interesting question in the chat from Danielle. Um And I was wondering if, um, Rhiannon could tell us a bit more about that. It's about the risk assessment during the third trimester in pregnancy. Um And I think it's quite important to talk about it because there's always an official risk assessment, but really no one really knows what the real risks are to every individual and they're barely tailored to every person. So I think the important message would be that, um, it's up to us to feel empowered to take that upon ourselves, to see if we are, if we are at risk and if we do need to come off the on call, ROTA and see how we could go about it. So, I was wondering if, um, um, you could talk about that a bit more cos I think it's quite important. Um, I feel like a lot of people get fobbed off saying, oh, yeah, it's safe. You can do whatever you want. But actually it's not. Um, so, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's difficult to say when it's not safe because it depends on stuff like what's the intensity of you're on call? Are you non resident? How, how are you? Um, ok. I was, I was lucky, I guess when it was me because my educational supervisor was like, well, you're gonna wanna come off the on call rota by 30 weeks stop then and then with the first one with the second one. I was so sick that I just was useless and couldn't be on call cos I was just sick all the time. Um, so they were supportive and I could just say I am not doing this past this date because that's what requires an adjustment. If it's an adjustment for pregnancy, they have to pay your no pay. They should not cut your pay because you're not on the, on call, you should not be not banned it. That's your legal, right? And it's on the government website. Um, and if you get stuck with that, then BMA can help if your reli manager does not support you, um, then your GP can write you a fit note to say that you need amended duties, for example, no long days, no nights. Or if there's something specific that you can't do, then that would be my kind of get around if, if your line manager isn't helping when it sounds like they haven't had kids and they don't really get it. Um, but yes, you should be paid if it's a temporary adjustment because you're pregnant, you still get your normal pay. If you are struggling to be supported. Occupational health are quite tricky because they go, oh, you're pregnant, you're not ill and we can't help. So actually GP is probably your best bet for getting some back up in the form of a fit note for that would be my advice or BMA if you are a member because they can send dropping emails on your behalf if you want to go down that road. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's like and said, really useful to speak about and, and, and highlight that as an issue. Um I can see there's another question as well, just a little bit further up from uh Peter um, about working in different gene and I suppose that's something that we may have to come across as surgical trainees. Um, and a few other half in medicine as well. We're not always lucky enough to get placed in the same, the same place in the country, which can be maybe a difficult aspect of parenthood that other, other jobs don't have to worry about necessarily as much as we do. So I can see your answer. There is pretty helpful about, um, um, transfers. Um, I suppose personally, I would say, as Helen alluded to it really does take a village to raise Children and, and I don't know how I personally would have managed that if I hadn't had my partner here and, and, and my family. And as you can see Helen still being helped by her other. Um, yeah, so I think Peter, that's probably quite an important thing to, to think about if you're, if you're expecting anyone, anyone else to sort of add to that. No, Michael, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Do you mean, are you talking about the last three months of the full year of leave where you're not paid or do you mean beyond that or just so we're entitled to. Um I think it's uh like I had it in my last slide, but you can take unpaid parental leave. Um And there was some conversation about packing on two weeks to the end of parental um, paternity leave with unpaid uh unpaid pa parental. Oh my God, I'm struggling with returns. Um, but II, II just haven't met anyone who's had any success with it. Um So I was just wondering if anyone has. So I've met someone who's, she did it in school holidays, um, and planned it in advance and I think maybe got a bit of push back, but you're legally entitled to take it. So she just took it um, to spend an extra time with the kids. So it like, it's, it's definitely a thing and you can do it. Um I haven't personally done it but there, there's definitely people in the Yorkshire dry that I've met that, that, that have done. No, you go ahead. I know non surgical people that have not things that, that was exactly what my partner, my partner took some for me coming back to work and that was really helpful and, but I do wonder if there's, that sort of expectation isn't there in, in the, in general and that we all need to feel a little bit um, guilty for taking leave and it, and it's just not the case in other, in other jobs. I'd just like to know how many people take their whole annual leave entitlement, let alone extra unpaid leave. About the leave that we're actually paid for. That's a whole other session. Right. I'm quite conscious that it's nine o'clock. Um, so I just wanted to ask if there's any more questions, but in the meantime, I would like to thank all of our speakers. It's been a very useful talk. Um I really wished I had a talk like this when I was pregnant. Um And hopefully people will be able to utilize this resource as we will have a recording available. Um I'm sure all of us are more than happy to be contacted if you have any further questions, if you need any help, a chat event, anything. Um Our details are available through meal. Um But yeah, you can uh find us on social media. We'd be more than happy to talk to you about anything and just uh to close this off. The BMA is a very useful source for all sorts of information. And I just recently discovered that there is um there are advisors available over the phone. Um So if you go on the BMA website, um there are advisors allocated uh on parental leave and how to plan it and you can discuss individual circumstances. So, um