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way, way. Everyone in the in the room. Uh, thank you for joining us. We have a wonderful debate and some amazing speakers here as you can sneak joining us, Talk all about medical education stuff to be a passionate about. But before we start, I'm just gonna introduce. My co host was Amanda. Amanda's a international 30 a medical student in carded. She's lived in Brazil, Vietnam, in Mozambique. Um, and she is fascinated by the cultural exchanges on believes in the power of digital innovation in the field of medicine. She holds leadership roles in medical student committee, such as cardio health care International Perspectives, chips. She has also a previously co founded a career company called Med School Extra on an international fellowship Phoenix Method and has worked as part of the Welsh Student Committee W MSC in the BMA British Medical Association. Having been a member and mentor in many initiatives, she knows the potential off great teamwork, leadership, uh, great team Working leadership can bring one in the medical profession. Also, thank you so much for that introduction revolt. I think it's fair enough that introduce you a swell refunds and I are both very interested in medical education and why. This is why we brought some of the amazing speedy today to speak to you about Medicaid. Um, and the platforms that are involved in providing medical education out there revolves. Revolves is a very insightful individual. He is a medical student. 1/4 year medical student at Cardiff is also we're both from Cardiff University, and he has a passion for surgery. Medical education, research in you were science and also technology such a i He is the president's off the surgical society here in Cardiff, and he's the press president, all the newer science society as well. He's the founder in president off unorganised a shin that I'm I'm sure most of you know which is called All Ski Z is a medical education online platform, which has told I'm entered over 25,000 medical students from over 80 countries and over 130 medical schools across the globe. And that's with his friends. So this shows only the amazing team or behind it. So I'm sure we were both very interested in med, and we we've met some great people out there, including the ones we've seen the work of the's amazing individuals that are part off this workshop today. And hopefully we'll be able to get some very interesting discussions going. Right. So shall we shall we get started on? Shall we start with Learned with nurses then? Michaela and Joe, Do you like to share your concept of medical education and bit about yourselves as well? Absolutely. On blank. You so much for writing us. Do you work report of your session or part of the session today? Really, really good fun. So it might start. Okay, so my name's with a little I'm a nurse, you know, for a very long time, with a whole cardiovascular by background, but with a whole range of different roles that I do on one of them is around training and education on I'm joined holes on also unearthed cardiovascular. We met many, many moons ago, bonded over our love of the cardiology on, uh, what racing really were. Lots of different hearts do lots of different jobs, but predominantly, I very much feel my role in helping people to learn on Teo ultimately improve patient education. So one of the things I think that Joe and I both bringing this is what I'm going to talk about. Land with niceties is that we're quite were quite pragmatic in how we like to do things were often seen as the voice of the voice of, well, sending, sensible on do well in a fun sort of way. So whilst we might sit on a a variety of different sort of when it's editorial boards chairing committees that you care of the Richards and Irish Hypertension Masses society, you know the nurses working party and tear apart you please on Healthcare Committee. We still like to have fun wherever we're working, and I think that's something we try and bring forward. So I'll get a loan versus is and what? How it came about on two years ago. I mean, Joan, I've done face. We've delivered face to face training all over the place. Well, although the UK I would say occasionally you're on that it will stop it. Of course we're not done. Happened on everything that was face to face stopped on, But I remember just sitting there thinking I kept seeing I kept seeing that apologies to the great with that around there, but I kept seeing these webinars that looked to be really amazing and slick on with the great look good. You were going to be doing the presentation's one and I thought, Oh, quite fancy ago, doing something like that. But I was on Sugar Post CABG on, so I couldn't breathe very well. So I had to come up with something that I felt I could do. Just about half a Now our setting up a kitchen table with my feet up. So I feel I know I've got I've got out You used I had assumed platform. I just found the basic simple A pressure. I fought it and put it out was a little link on. Hundreds of people signed her, So I all afternoon another one. Hundreds of people signed up those 30 minutes to jog. I think there's something I think there's something. So we called it locked down, learning to start with. Ongoing. Of course. One lock down stopped. We couldn't go it locked down, learning any long Joe came up with the wonderful name off learned with nurses. So we now have. So we do. It'll a bit like I was like many of us, we do this in our spare time, on of which there isn't much there. Time it all. And we have a fantastic team. But supporters most on Earth is but no all. And we'll do our 30 minutes bite side with 10 minutes of sections. This just a lot of jobs. Gonna give you a lot more detail about what we do with this, but, um, but that's that's pretty much my perspective of where we started off on their job. Brings you you with regard to the table. Don't do well, apparently so grand time to live. Medical director of making sure that, you know, we're we're covering things in the right way and not not telling any any silly stories to anybody making up things as we go along. A little bit of a swell eso. Yeah. I joined McKayla quite early on in the journey and I had actually gone back. Teo, My my very old is, um, intensive canister. The pandemic. So I was yeah, up to my neck in in people and kind of it, but yeah, maybe something fun to be on my day off on. So, like McKayla just started to deliver. It's and sessions and we were both working cardiovascular disease. So we have a a wide range of topics that were recovering with in cardiovascular disease. But we wanted to expand a little bit beyond that on Look at lots of common conditions that people all over the world have that they're living with every day on wanted to kind of give people the opportunity to go back to basics because we find the often, particularly if you being working and doing this for quite some time. People just kind of get on, and they went in to to the guidance that treating patients and you know those things. But sometimes either forget or didn't really under this understand in the first place the really fundamentally is off it. So we have some very much, but we used to call them back to basics we now call them understanding sections on. So we have a colleague join us in diabetes, spirit to disease and sexual health as well for a whole range of things. And then we also have some guess. Come alone. When some people saw you were doing, we had some consultant colleagues, GP colleagues that'll be coming out of place that looks really interesting. And we've been thinking of setting up something for years, but never got around to it. And so they like the fact that we just got on with it came and joined us. So over the past couple of years, um, so far, we've delivered just on the 300 sessions a lacrosse, the subject areas that I just mentioned. We've actually reached 16.5 1000 delegates, also to be free of charge. Now, when I say 69,000 delegates, some of those and repeat people, because we've actually got to know some of our delegates, we could people from benign from us from the pulled all over the world. So we've reached people in 81 different countries so far, we're we're now on 1st, 1st name, chatty terms with a number of healthcare professionals from from all corners of the world, which is absolutely fantastic on do yeah, way just a little bit and and well, because it means a lot to you, does it does say, Well, just close with before we pass on to the next on the White House. And why what? We've done slightly different. I think in terms off Getting education and training out people is way. We were around one training disappeared on we, so we used one of evaluation for you. They used to say, You know, how did you find the sessions and type things on the three buck with getting was? You don't know what you've just done for me because people were locked down. There was a lot of health care professional to isolating, and they were like, you know, it was that the actual support of people were getting from from a mental health perspective, I just attending. Something was massive. Also, they got to escape from kind of. It's all about Lester on Say, we have stuff with that. It's real life does wash your tumble drives, always clipping and just to turn it off on doing what we will do enjoy is that if you like that with, they feel like they're in that. So they might be hundreds of people. A lot of people. It's healthcare professionals. So you don't have nurses. We've got med students dentist. We have a lot of air flight attendants at one point doing BP so really, really hard, and we we like to make it so that it's fun, accessible and in fact, even down to Bill Joy wants and said to me, What? Where were you 10 years ago, when I needed you? Because it does cause that Chantix for you try to explain things like battle receptors of just dinner ladies and what you realize that it makes it so easy to understand what they do. So we are delighted to be here so fantastic looking for to the debate and hearing everybody else I'm going to put in the chat now that the new Web site booking is just going live so it's lowered. Nurses start or forwards lunch. Home is the redirect hasn't come off yet, so it will be direct somewhere else. But yes, so So that's, uh, so low analysis, like, you know, lovely, lovely to hear about the amazing worth. And even during McCammon Joe with learn with nurses, we we all really look up to the the work that you're doing. And we all wish this hot. This has happened like beforehand my years ago because the information the way that you portray it, you know, and these are gonna be the strategies that we're gonna be debating about. But going from basics, you make such such a difference. You understand the bigger picture. And it's lovely, you know, because we work so closely with nurses. Um, and we are inspired by them. Really? So you guys really make a difference? Cell? They're lovely to hear from you. And we want to hear more on the debate. I think we should move on to Doctor A simple. So, Dr Sam, would you like to introduce yourself? And you know what you do? Um, in task mean, how your experience has been so far? It would be lovely. Hear from you? Yes. Your Thanks, Amanda. Yeah. Thank you all for for welcome here welcoming me along. Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about myself on my rules of views on medical education, but yeah, on, then we'll take it from there. So, uh, I'm on what's referred to as early career researcher in medical education. So I'm about to undertake a PhD in in October. So no other problems along this as other medical researchers, but, you know, getting there on dizzy. Interesting to think something you don't think about medical education is the fact that a lot of the interventions we need to make need an evidence base in the same way that critical stuff needs an evidence base and there are really good, rigorous evidence. Base is out there is that to become the kind of person starts to contribute to those sorts of things. So I got in terms of rolls out how I suppose it's worth mentioning that I've got three relatively major rules in in medical education, and I think, well, a tickly, because I realized I mean that in the company of seven very prestigious people here. But so I'm a member of the communications team for a group called Tace Me Eso that stands for quite a mouthful. Training is in the Association for the Study of Medical Education. I'll come back and speak a bit more about them in a bit. I'm also the training rep for assessments for the Royal College of Pediatrics. I should have mentioned, but clinically in my clinical life. I'm a registrar in pediatric emergency medicine, so I've trained with the War College of Pediatrics. So whenever they're trying to change any aspect of assessments or won't be back about it. I'm here to present the perspective of training on, but I suppose my third really in medical education is not not so much a role is a drop I have is I'm what's called a W Cats fellow in medical education. So I'm a Welsh clinical, academic track fellow s. So I think the equivalent of England is an ATF in academic, clinical fellow. The idea of being there part of my time. I'm during my training in my specialty pediatric medicine on part of my time. I was that it gets to research work and I'll talk a bit more about that in a bit. And on the road to this, I was asked to explain a little bit about how I got my role in my head. I I think there are so many different pathways into medical education. If there are lots of this, everyone's part of a different story, so I won't go into mining too much detail. I just think the key thing for anyone who's interested in developing careers in medical agitated occasion or having medical education be part of a future is that it's all really about this. This, like many things in in life. It's all about a snowball effect. So you start with something small and you work your way along to something bigger. And so for me, I I started off by becoming a lead for teaching on pediatricians have to pass their written exams for the membership to the war college and whales on. While doing that, I was recording a bunch of sessions. Teaching sessions are complicated conditions with consultants, and it hit me there. Why don't I just make this foam at your stuff? Three Open access to medical education. So I recorded those sessions that had a chat with the consultants. They were happy for me to publish them is pop casts on with that? I launched driving bites. Pediatric podcast, which is now, uh, you know, got a relatively decent following around the world. I think 46% of our listeners are outside of the UK. We get 1 to 2002 weeks. We're not doing too bad. But off the back of that, I got that presented at conferences. Natural International on. That helped me that help give me a bit of credibility when I was applying for the many roles I was applying for s, I suppose. What What it boils down to. It's just the fact the used I started with something small. If you're willing to do that if you I work and much, much of much the same way is Lynn with living with nurses, Teams said, If you do this definitely spare time, if you're willing to dedicate some extra time doing this stuff, you can build upon it on necessarily. I came into these roles. Thea other thing that I wanted to talk about where's being a critical academic in medical education? So unlike most clinical academics, my interest my research area, is actually my critical area, so that makes it unusual, I think. Medical education. He's an area which hasn't got asthma, Uh, check presence in the research world. The moment so So. I'm the first ever whales training to get mad at Fellowship on, but we'll start with The doors are starting to open. It's really exciting to see the amount of work that that's going forward with that. And there are more warm PhD candidates coming through on Do something, you know there are people, sign Fleming. It's up himself was far further along this pathway than I am this great to see the things that version in that direction. Um, and then I just want to come back and mentioned briefly about has me. So for those of you haven't heard of asked me before. So that's the Association for the Study of Medical Education is a group that's worth being aware of if you're interested in men. Add on to the UK based organization. One of the biggest groups for medical education on Got a real focus on scholarships or research. They run conferences teaching sessions, two of the major journals under their name. Medical education. That clinical teacher. You also do grandson funding for people who are doing research on I'm a member of their training groups of trainees very present about being Korea's in medical education. You can come in a follow follow tabs Me on you. There's a trainee level conference has me run a monthly met add forums That's on Twitter, where we have discussions about different topics in medical education and discuss ideas around them. On one of the results brought onto the team is because I did my dissertation in podcasting because I helped lost driving by its podcast. They asked if I helped them build a podcast. So keep a year out there in the in the near future for for podcasts stuff. I think what I'll do is our posts. Um, in case anyone wants Maurine Formacion about if you're interested on uncertain about how to follow a career medical educational post, Um, my contact info is often quite a no paper world. I found having done all this quite recently. So if you're struggling, you don't know where to go for your free to contact me. And more than happy to offer the little if eyesight, I think I'm going to shut up Now that I'm talking for a really long time. Awesome, I think Revolved has frozen for bait. But great to hear from you, Doctor Samana sleepy. And I I'm sure that you've done some great work in research, you know, in working working organizations that just has me. And it's quite nice to see the makes all strategies that's has me uses in medical education, a swell in with in person in online events. And as you mentioned with the podcast that we're gonna come on with the someone that's very experienced in Port House, which is Mr uh, adult from stuff up. But before we going to go through the stuff we're going to go to Mister Fleming, who has done some great warrant to medical education, has a great social media presence, I must say, eh? So why don't you, Mr. Filming? Why don't you speak a little bit about your experiences and met edge? And what you what you focus on at the moment? Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. My name is my name Simon. I'm a North Pedic registrar. I just finished my med PhD, so I'm I'm loving hearing actually talk about how he's about to start his congratulations and condolences. We'll talk. Uh, it's a thing. Uh, my PhD was was really atypical and assumes Absolutely. Right. So I did a PhD in medical education. Relatively uncommon. It was qualitative, which is virtually unheard of in my world. And I'm not the pedic surgeon. Eso so the world of medical education is kind of coming around, and it's interesting because I'm always mindful of these kind of intros that they don't become a fig jam Talk, which stands for him. Fudge. I'm good. Just ask me where you sort of sit there and just talk about how great you are for a while, which again is a common orthopedic trait. But I guess to give myself some credibility I started is an undergrad, and I started is an underground teaching because it makes me sound like a hipster. We were doing near to peer before it was cool in the, you know, second years talk first years, right, and 30 years talked second years, and that was the thing. And I hated that. They asked me questions I didn't know the answers to. I just didn't like being ask questions and going, I don't know. And also it made me feel a bit like a fraud. Like, how dare I teach you how to use a stethoscope if I don't really know how to use the stethoscope. So it motivated me to go away and do you work? It motivated me to revise so that I could teach you know you on. We see it all the time, right? People talking about stuff that they have no idea what they're talking about. And that's happened quite a lot over the last couple of years actually on gum, and that burgeoned into me, wanting to know more about how we teach, why we teach, why we assess how we assess and then for me. And I guess we'll get into this, that the reason I got into qualitative research is so much medicine is quantitative, not because it should be, but because actually is easy. We like to count stuff and have a graph, and we like to convince ourselves that we understand science and pee values on. Actually, most of education and most of medicine is a social science about people, and it's about stories on. Do you know me? Measuring how many patients you've seen doesn't mean you're any good at your job. It just means that you've seen 40 of them. I have a surgical logbook. I have to do a certain number of operations every single one of my patients could die on. I would still have done the right number of operations to progress in my training. The numbers on everything on actually social media, which is part of this conversation, has a real power to play in that, because actually social media is is is very social based. It's community based. It is about stories on it is about all these little microcosms, and we've seen that so much. There's, um, there's an amazing paper, which you should read by By Johnny Gucky and on Olive Byrne and Aqua Acid and a bunch of other people on. They did a systematic review looking at the role of social media in kind of undergrad med it on. They realized what they found that it looked at, you know, peer relationships, professionalism, which is a whole can of worms blended learning, right? You don't have to be in a room all the time having death by power point how you develop your knowledge, how you support learners and support each other. How you form on identity as a person, as a doctor, as a nurse, as a surgeon as a House officer is an F one. All those little things. Um, Andi, you know, it's this burgeoning world that that the pandemic is actually sort of forced us all to take a closer look at because it used to just be a thing that you kind of went on there and, you know, scrolled on and suddenly in the last three years. Social media is not only become a lot of people live on socialize and interact, but it has become a way we share and disseminate and democratize knowledge. You know, I love the fact that so I'm this is a humble Braganca. I'm I'm the social media editor for for the two big med A journals Onda people are like, How do you feel if people screened shopping stuff and sharing it? And I'm like, Great, you know, I don't work for a publisher I'm not making billions on. But the fact that I spent my evening last night, you know, reviewing papers for free. Actually, it's a It's a broken business model on social media allows people who otherwise wouldn't be able to get to the library, can't afford to publish, can't afford to get into a general 70 colorful, to read it, to see that stuff, to share that stuff. And then the great bit is have a really interesting debate. You go on Twitter and you say I read this paper and I don't understand. Hashtag meditated, and I guarantee, and 15 minutes you'll have a bunch of professors from around the world going. Let me explain. I'm revising for my surgical exams at the moment, which, by the way, uh, another broken business model. And I posted something about how quantitative stats don't make any sense to me at all. Arthur Tosh, on a bunch of professors of statistics from around the world, sent mediums going, let me know any free, like that's mind boggling, that flattened hierarchy that this course is just is just something amazing. And it knocks away a lot of that hierarchy patriarchy, um, privilege that used to maintain the status quo which stopped for medical education from growing in ways that maybe it should have. And I think we're just a turning point where organizations on individuals are having to recognize that it's not just a thing that the youth are on, but actually, if you're not on Twitter, and if you're not on instagram and you're not on TIC tac, and if you're not on those things, you are probably missing something, and you you kind of need to get with the program. That's where we are. That's that's honestly wonderful, dear. I mean, I I I repetitively for so many papers and I don't commit myself. But I look at the discussions that the tutorials and I learned so much from those papers, especially in medicine, in your system. And in fact, the the paper that you talked about Aqua Ali and the systematic review actually had a look at it when it was posted on until it's it's honestly wonderful to see how medical education is moving. Um, so for for our next speaker, we have Doctor Mustafa a suit on, And he is, uh uh, he's known for his his podcast, the big picture medicine podcast. Uh, and he's He's here to talk about what exactly he hopes to achieve. Um, by doing this, Parker's but first introduction about himself. A swell. So that's doctor stuff or musty, if you don't mind me, right? Yes, of course. Hi, guys. Thank you so much for having me. I've had this hypothesis that the world of health care is usually about five or 10 years behind the rest of the world on. I think one of the interesting things that's come about from that is that there's been this trend in the world, right, that I think we trust big institutions about this Simon mentioned the whole medical publishing model, which is broken, of course. But even organizations like the B M a GMC I think we're slowly losing. I trust in them. But I think that brings an interesting opportunity for independent creators and in the field of field of medicine, independent creators of medical education. Now throughout the pandemic, you might have seen this guy with the professor your Ogen on. I think one of the interesting parts from his story is that he was course commenting, quite controversially, on a lot of topics on vaccines on different experimental treatments. But the thing was that he was pulling in 11 million people per episode on For context. Some of CNN's most popular shows get about 2 to 3 million. So, really, this independent creator has actually, despite the brand of being on anti establishment, he is really the establishment on What does this have to do with my dad? Well, I think the future of medicine it's probably on be interesting to hear everyone else's views on this, but I think it is the independent creator, um, on my own kind of small for into this is with the big picture medicine podcast on my goal with This was that a few years ago, My friend Message bend marrow tap. Who's the doctor who owns a large health care company on said, Look, we just want to learn from you. Can we come down to London and shallow you for a few days? And he replied, Yeah, sure come down. So we spent two or three days just learning from him, literally following him around. Hanging on to every word he said with our note pads on The'keeper's in here was that I don't know how much this fits into traditional medical education, but I think there are serious of meta skills that don't necessarily fit into kind of research or fit into clinical knowledge. But they're the skills that the skill of skills. So it's how, for example, assume was saying that how you get into these opportunities. So, for example, if you're a medic and you want to go into medical education research or you want to go into policy or you want to go into entrepreneurship, maybe have some attack thing going on, how do you actually get there on this? Information wasn't really available, so I just started speaking and interviewing to people I found impressive. I just ask them. The question is like, How did you actually get there on the what advice would you help your 20 year old self? And the reason I think podcasting is very cool for this is that because it's such a, you know, an independent medium. There's no Gate Keeper. There's no one. There's no large organization. There's no journal. There's no company saying that this is okay to publish. This is not okay to publish. This will give us this, won't you? Can this you put anything out there? Um, but it also has a degree of the just, um a c. I think people, especially the older generation, might associate it with radio on. Think it's a bit more the chip mint than it is when really anyone can use their microphone on the phone and put out a podcast in five minutes for free. So the benefits I think of making a podcast if you're in the medical space. Ah, that's a good excuse to talk to interesting people. There's a phrase, you know, I just when you contact people, you say, I just want to pick your brain and people. I'm sure many of the speakers here received that request A lot on people don't like that phrase. Um, but having a podcast, or even if you're writing on article or you're writing a block just having some kind of output that you can offer back it makes it more of a two way exchange. So I think that's a very good way, and you could talk to people who are perhaps more impressive are interesting that you might be able to talk to just on your own accord. It's a serendipity of vehicle, so it creates a rented pretty by having an online presence. People who are like minded can reach out to you, and it's low effort. Initially, in my podcast, you take me a long time to make, but now I probably spend under five hours a week on It s so it makes it very sustainable, so I can do it for a long time, and I poked to continue it for five or 10 years at least. The downside is it won't make you rich. Probably, um, they're they're very hard to grow. There's not really an algorithm like there was a new tube on Twitter, which helps people organically discover you. It's very rare for someone discover you through your podcast. It's more likely they'll discover, Um, it's where and then listen to your podcasts. The last point I just want to touch on are the benefits of consuming podcasts for medical education. Obviously, you'll know this, but it opens up that time committing time, walking time during the ironing. You can just listen to a podcast. It's also a very good 101 to the topic. So very good Introduction to a topic. I do question how much you would learn necessarily from, um, passively listen to information. But I think it's a very good surface level understanding, and you can listen to a neck spurt and very quickly find out a lot about topic in the surface of away on dive into part of it that you find more interesting. Lastly, I think because there is no gate keeper, I think that you get a lot of unusual content, which might not necessarily be published somewhere like I don't know, like a journal or in an official medicine education. Siris. You can get more road content and because it's most people making podcast tend to be independent creators. You can get this kind of niche content that you might not find anywhere else on. You know, that's where I think I fit in a swell, I think for you can really find a podcast that really answers the questions that you bean dying to know. And then lastly, I guess I think they're always on the bleeding edge. Um, whereas text forms of journals, they might have a like period between the content being posted and then resubmitted and then published podcasts there usually very invokes. So you can actually be up to date on. Yeah, I mean, the corner. I mean, I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinions on this, but it's just how much do you absorb from possibly listen to audio? The debate is up. I'm not too sure, but that's ah. On last year. I guess I'm a junior doctor in Manchester, So probably just ask for that. Uh, but yet look forward, Teo. Discussing some of these points, we'll assume, think it's so much stuff as well for a dollar. You an introduction. And I think you you started you introduce it nicely. The a few questions that we have for our debate. Because now we want to hear from all of you and the platforms that you sort of representing and you had experience with. We wanna hear from a few questions. So if we can start actually refunded, and I we thought it was very beneficial to hear from you. What is 11 if you want to choose one compared to the other platforms that we spoke here? So we have Twitter. We have podcasts, we have online events, you know, with lung with the nurse, a webinar Siris. And we also have improved sing teaching conferences and that networking that has me brings what do you think is one benefit off your platform? Compared shoulders? What is not that one benefit that your platform can bring the you've experienced? Um, not sure if you want. Anyone would like to start. Um, maybe, maybe Simon. I can see us. You know, I think it cuts both ways. I'm president. A bunch of platform. I do a lot of work on Twitter. Uh, I guess one of the benefit is that there are really communities there. They're all global communities. That of four organically Um, which means they tend to be, can be very psychologically safe spaces for some really interesting conversation. But when it is, they cut both for you. Which means that, like in any community, there, ass home on people who you know, I think that they have the right piling and offer their opinion. That is both offensive, Mr Forms and the right is the bell curve of humanity and social media is no no different to that. But but the way that Twitter has flattened hierarchy in those communities throughout these really interesting conversations that happen when they happen in a kind of healthy, constructive way, it's it's actually amazing. The amount of knowledge I've gained from some cross just deciding to randomly on a Thursday afternoon explain out something works because they're bored, is is unimaginable because it's not the kind of thing I get to a conference for it. It's not the kind of thing I probably read, but it's interesting because they do it. They do it with, you know, gifts or something. I think that's an interesting insight. I think it's especially eat because I I've you Twitter as productive procrastination, if you know what I mean. Going to twitter just because you're you don't have much to do any new. You're going to see some interesting threads. Um, and you're learning to me for himself, so I I would agree to that. Michaela, you have We get on. You was You know, I Yeah, I think for us theat cess ability way both They're not the face to face teaching, but the amount of people that we can reach through a weapon. Webinars is incredible on by the way that we do them all. They are bite size and you do have a lot audiences. We do use chap functions. Would you use Q and A function so people are able to communicate with us on with each other as well. And it's just the little things like people introduces themselves. I mean, you know, the community aspect was just mentioned, and I think, you know, people are as well as seeing are some repeat webinars. They seeing colleagues from around the world on repeat webinars as well. So you know, having a bit of chap going a month themselves. But, you know, we would never be able to access the volume of people that we do and any it's it just six into the fifth and two R J. So it fits into other people's day as well. You know, they could be people. We did a little survey. Didn't a snapshot survey of what do you do when you're watching alone with NASA's weapon are on. You know, we heard people that were looking their supper get some paintings and garden furniture ones. Yeah, they kind of It's just sitting in with real life. And I think for us, that's probably artist. I think so, Yeah, that's absolutely And I think we we've tried to do in terms of social media. We do have some support from the amazing you know who does all of our analysis. Well, she does all of our a lot of social media side of the world. So she has the presence on instagram Twitter, Facebook just time that there was a dick top, but it will get there on, but we will do and that that all all new session coming up that we're about to launch is lower nurses in conversation, which feels a bit podcasting. Actually, we're trying to get away from happening types of sessions way just love talking. And actually people quite like listening to us. So, um, where yet? So I think that's what we do in your life to bring is that we just It's It's just really life stuff, but also weight Get to do this stuff, and I think you have picked up on the most after on your where you're talking about. It's the stuff we wouldn't get anywhere else. That that's the big that I think makes a new have moments where people go. I understand this. Now. I get this now, you know, even down to BP. You know, like such a common thing, this high potential. But until people don't understand what is, look how you have been a manager on, That's what we tried it a long time. It's just get people to want to learn more. But given them foundation, it's, I think, the safe space aspect that was just engenders. Well, you know, nobody wants to be the one that puts their little hand up in a classroom full of people and ask what they see. It's a silly question, but if you could just tap it out in a chat box and send it in even making anonymous if you want to. You know, people are then able to ask that question. Yeah. I believe that the accessibility with the Webinar series is amazing. Really? And then I feel that bringing the information bite size is a mix of formal. An informal Yeah, I know what you I was a very interesting makes and we are old and loan with webinar series, and And you really do create a connection with the people that are presenting it. And I'm sure that you also create You know what? This is going to overlap with what Simon set of building a community with what with stuff that said Because that same forecaster always introducing those what episodes in building, building it on it would be great. Thank you for your people. Take many screen shots. Is you want to? Yeah, I was, but we we get we called them. We want them live. So people feel like they were in the room with you. But yet taking minute he wants absolutely will compose. If you want to love it, love it. Love it. A seem. Do you have anything to say about, You know, the in person aspect of things, you know, very beneficial aspect of it. Yeah, so I think it's worth rep acknowledging that every type of education has it. So like they're all different tools in your case, so remote and remote learning in this many forms and then in person for learning, how has it still value? I think one thing that currently we aren't quite able to mimic with virtual learning technology is, is is them. There's a number I won't talk about, but I think the more important things is something that's notice. Socio cultural learning, Phiri. So for those of you who are unfamiliar with this, this is the idea that you learn in the culture in which you are practicing. So when you're a med student on, do you get asked to go on the ward round? Now, only you learning the stuff that the doctors are teaching you directly, you're learning. Oh, that's how the consultants interrupts with the nurses. Oh, that's how the nurses interact with the patients. That's how the junior doctor interacts with the patient while they're interacting with. This is this is how the pharmacist gets about that sort of stuff. Is that really hard to minute? Actually, you can't get. You can't get insight into the actual culture and thing actually, culture you're working with until your on the ward until you start watching it and all that stuff, some of you will. Some medical students will be aware of it, don't you? Will some medical you aware of it? I think we had some of some sense, um, background. Sometimes, you know, that's another thing. And other, we'll speak about challenges in a bit. Or, you know, that's that brings to be fair. That's a good point. Good space for me to close the think I'm actually made that point. I think that's an aspect of in person. Then you can't really mimic the moment. Virtually the culture in the environment is something you'll have to Then there's a lot in the hidden curricula that you need to pick up there on to do it. You kind of need to be there in person. Absolutely. So I just had a quick question about this one of them. Then what would you think is the rule of the sort of remembering things in memory. And how does that? Very in terms of online classes, social media, This is by a podcast. Was this in President? How do you think that differs every single person's experience in retaining that knowledge? Mostafa must Did you want it? If if you had anything. Oh, sorry. Could you? Uh, I didn't quite get the question. So sorry. Could you go again? So my thinking was obviously there are different ways off different ways of conducting medical education, running for medical education and and understanding for the medical student. But for for any student, for that matter of fact, how How would the roll off each of this? Individual platforms are either each of these individual way off learning factor into the students retaining So, for example, by a podcast at as a cement and yourself as well mentioned, you can just listen to it while driving. But this sort of multi tasking factor that's that decrease the retaining capabilities. And also, what are the advantage is that you might find in in poor Costas? Well, Oh, yeah, almost. Certainly. I think you're absolutely correct. And I'd be interested in what the rest of the panel think about retention because I don't know anything about medical education, But I think the benefit, I guess, is again the being able to do other activities. But also, I think, the asynchronous nature of it, meaning that some of the downsides, I guess, of the physical talk or online talk is that you do have to be there at the certain time. So I think the asynchronous nature that someone could give a talk at six. PM and you can listen to it six months later is quite beneficial. Um, but yeah, I'd be interested in what the rest of the panel think of that in terms of retention, Because I don't I'm very interested, so I have no idea. Let's see. Um, I like jumping on the attention side. Is that okay? Yeah. So I think all that I am a little bit nervous. System were away in a cottage with other people, and I can hear them coming down the stairs and there's a lot of outside. So I Apologies apologize in advance for any really life. Really? Like I got the outside in the way we got is in the the chemo. He's on costumes, so that's a funny story. This's what it's like. It's normal. It's good that anyway. And certainly attention, I tell you. That's why you don't learn something from you know it wants. You don't learn something by seeing it once I think that they, you know, able to get something. Well, I try and do. A lot of this I do is I try and ankle Infant with either a bit of humor, a bit of a bit of novelty on occasional swear word, something to just after what you're saying in, so that if it needs to be called again, it will come out on. So so so just got to get up. You can see what's going on. So So yes, and after they're in. But actually you hear it wants, and you, then you might feel it somewhere else, and you hear it some oil so you might go back and listen to another podcast, or it might make you to say, Want to go learn something else. So I think listening to something months, um, anything that will retain a tiny bit of it said. I think it's not the only way to learn, but it's a great way to reinforce things. Be be part of that whole learning journey on. We'll learn in different ways. You know, I'm I'm rubbish with root in the textbook. I cannot read a text book, but I'll call. I'll draw something now. Eso again. It's what works for different people seem. Did you? Yeah, So this is a favorite of evidence in in the realm of podcasting. As it happens, I'm not as familiar with every other row of virtual, but a number of people have assessed. Weather forecasting is, is good is learning from a lecturer living from textbooks learning through quizzes, and for the most part, it is an active engagement with the podcast and not just listening to it while you're going to the shots or whatever. But if you have to sit down and you're making notes from here, it's non inferior in most in most experiments, you will learn a much from a podcast is you will do from a text book or a lecture covering the same material on, but that is active listening. It's no casual listing. I don't think anyone's experimented with what you do with the more realistic, virtually listening popped apart past, which is why you're having a job. I see. I see. So that's that's quite interesting to here, actually, because for me, at least when when I'm driving, driving to placement, I I put on a zero to find a spot cast and just stuff. Let let that take away that conversation. And if I I try to link it with the patients that I see in in practice a swell and so that particular in my mind, a particular condition is represented by that particular patient that I see throughout my journey. So the way that from for me myself, I do a bit of lecturing. But I attended. I attend quite a few on my lectures by Do. And so these help me as adjunct to to build up on that gets out of condition sheet that I have in my mind with that particular face or particular um, yeah, particular face or the patient that I have seen in clinical practice. So for me it's a It's a mixture of both, but I love to hear your Mr Salmon Flemings opinions of these as well. Uh, I mean a lease conversations remind me of when PBL first came about because I'm old on day before that other thing on. Then after that, competency and outcomes and the answer Is there a lot just weapons in your armamentarium and there's no one answer, and then never, ever will be at anyone who tells you that they've got the answer is trying to sell you something, right? Um, podcaster really useful you if you engage in them. And you remember the stories I've got friends who used, um um, a bit like singalong, right? So they listen to it and they listen to it. They listen to it until they can say the same thing. Like when you're listening to songs you've had over over over again until you kind of subconsciously know the words. You don't have any understanding, but the words come come out. Similarly, if it's a really good podcast where they're explain, we're unpacking something same with Webinars. Webinars are have all kinds of advantages, but they have some disadvantages because if there's 10,000 people in the webinar and everyone's cameras off, there's a certain passivity to it, but equally it's accessible. You could watch it whenever you can be at home, you might feel safer, you might be more relaxed on. I think the conversations we're having now is so important because really, what it's about is a move away from the belief that many organizations still hold, which is that the way we talked on learned 300 years ago is still the way we teach and should teach and learn now. I mean, you know, my one of my favorite fact that I tweeted up about twice a year just so that people remember is that the apprentice ship model that we use in healthcare the fundamental apprenticeship model was from a guy called William Hosted. The whole steady in model William hosted was a massive coke and heroin addict. But in those days, it wasn't addiction. You could buy them over the counter. And he talks very openly about the way that you were an effective apprentice was that you never left work and you worked 48 to 72 hours on the truck. And that was how you saw everything by being there and doing everything and the way he did it was by being a single white man with the cocaine. And then he became important and told everyone else that they should be single white men with cocaine habits on. We're starting to work out that maybe those business models that are based around being in a room doing time aren't necessarily effective on. We're seeing that post pandemic in a few countries and a few specialties where they just didn't have exams and they let people start his consultant and the sky hasn't fallen in on D. You know, that's what's really exciting about ALS. Stuff everyone's talking about is that maybe you don't need to be an electrical the time, and maybe you don't just need to mindlessly follow me around for six weeks on that. Maybe we need to rethink how we do everything, including what everyone on this panel does. Put cuffs from Webinars and Twitter all that stuff because, actually, for some people it it works better. Um, and I think that's probably going to be the future is the's kind of blended learning styles where so long at the end you're safe and sensible could do the job. That's kind of what Max is, right, so so that that's a really good point in terms of, um, and I I just I just had a really interesting thing that I wanted to ask, actually. So as we move, move towards sort of the ways that we can teach and the blender learning as you mentioned conveying a message across How how would you think is the best cause I know. I know I had a chat with Michaela a few emails ago, uh, where she said that she just takes a cup of tea and sits around and talks about hypertension, BP, these kind of things to Is it something that so? Because I know for podcast, it's It's not during the podcast itself. It's a bit hard to interact with audience and interact with the people. So how how do you bring about this interaction where the a question based whether just sit and chat along with them or how would you think is is the best way and obviously blended. Learning is the best way, but in order to convince it in that stage yet, So I've got a counter question, which is Do you mean best in terms of passing exam? What do you mean best in terms of doing the jobs on D being good at what you do. Because McKenna I could sit down and talk for hours about BP, and I would undoubtedly leave understanding BP better. But if the exam if the assessment model is, um que SBA off ski, that still may not address it. So so do you mean best in terms of of what? Let's try best in terms of school. So I wear I wear with discussion. And so if that so we tried the big bring about these narcotics. So I mean, obviously, if you're talking about exam and if it's an SPF exam is be a question would be good. But does the role of having a chat about a certain topic or having a port customer about that particular topic or seeing a patient on the world with hypertension? Does that play a role in the in the students? So the mind processing towards entering that particular question So I'm gonna jump in now and say you got when we talking about medical education, health care, whatever it is, don't just talk about warts. A lot of health care doesn't happen in Lord, so I would really wide and that Why did the examples to come out. We know that the majority of healthcare happens outside of the hospital, on outside of warts, on a white, passionate about about outside of hospitals type stuff. So sorry to just jump in with that one on day. I think it is. I know you're trying to push it all to one space on, but the roads Loman nurses in the webinar to do is one style off, doing something that's improving. For me, it was always about getting people to have a little bit more and then you before not last. It's but a little bit more. And I can have always had this thought that if we could just improve everybody's knowledge, say about hypertension, that's fine. A little bit then the cross, the population we will know for as almost isn't about making people specialist. It's not about getting people to answer exams. It waas I would be due to the difference, but this is just that. Let's get everyone just increased in that knowledge. I think also for us what we really try and do this is to try and help people become a bit more enthusiastic about a subject. Want to learn a bit more realize. Actually, no, it's not really dull. It is quite interesting. And so way like to think that we're saying if you see it's for them. But you know, they because we are just bite sized weaponize, don't get it, that people may then feel that they want to go away and then a bit more for us, that kind of motivational aspect and also what they what people do with patients, because this is ultimately all about improving patient care, improving patient experience. So that's the angle we would come at. It is that when you're with patients, this is what your concern you'll you know. So it's only trying to use the language that people patients will understand. Well, good hours. But I'll be quiet. No, I think I think this is so complicated because we have so little time and I even with this discussion, I really wanted to know more about engaging the audience. You know, when how we how you can engage people differently because, you know, most often he doesn't have any contact. He just provides that information is hoping people to to listen to the podcast, stop the words, Um But then my heel and Joe, you're there. You ask. People turn their cameras on or not. You know, how is that aspect with mites in tier zero? Um, but what we do in voting, we do quit assocation from time to time. Real affection. Let's shift quiz based on and you learn through voting and you get to see the quiz side of things. And actually, you did a fantastic job with the quiz out on Twitter, which is a BP on just 10 very simple questions on to it a thousands of healthcare professionals. 10 minutes and it will keep on that. You know that the average score is about 70%. Can you beat it? And so I think there's a lots of different ways off being able to engage. But it is really tough, and, you know, they engage everybody because even when your face to face, you still have people sitting there in the back of the classroom stuff on my ms based to face teacher I. I was interested online education because I'm so pro face to face teacher and I used to take people that your phone's in the bags didn't know have you find that when you come into land, if you got to take a call, leave the room because you do, You need people to engage. And I think that's the way with doing anything on line is people are often doing something else the same time that's life on. We then have to work around that and use that and make last minute whatever we're doing. A commentator, people who are going to be busy and multitasking because we're all doing this well here. You know, Twitter going on messages on. And that's how we are. And that's that's the real life. It's really like Israel. Life is like, Well, my friends in the swimming pool, students jumping up. And what about what about having? Because, you know, Twitter, you have a high so community media presence now. So posting things on Twitter will create threads and great comments and GMC and everything. But you know, someone that's just start seeing speaking twittered. You have to build the presence, you know, on social media, how long does it take to build a presence? Get people interacting there? I mean, you don't you don't have to be some big name on campus to get involved. That's that's not the game, right? You create an account and there's no harm in in kind of being allergic er and just listening and watching. And that's how I started on bats perfectly fine and normal and okay, on the point is, if you have something to say, you say it like I've been on Twitter for our ah, whole age on my twitter falling has grown very organically. I have no, you know, consciously sort out followers, which is why I'm I'm no, the numbers that maybe some people are. And again, you know, there's all kinds of papers around why people post things and it's off that little serotonin buzz they get when they say something absolutely awful. Uh, you know, but But for me, if you want to get involved, just get involved. You know, there are communities for every every little sub specialty interest, but generally if you tweet like hi, I'm new to Twitter. How does this work? Hashtag meadow hashtag med twitter. You will suddenly start getting followers and people going like Yeah, welcome on. But that's the good side of it, right? Ah, you'll then like any community see the other side of it. But you don't. You don't have to have a million followers to have something important to say. In fact, you know there's a great quote to do to be fair to do with rape culture. And it says that the voices that are are not heard are the ones that maintain the status quo. And the fact that, you know, like Rogan just cause you have loads of followers doesn't mean you either have anything important to say all should be listen to you And actually, it's the voices of their least listen to you and least head that are probably the most important. That's also yeah, that's That's very true. Very true. And that's that's one question that comes to mind. You know, the people that have a lot of and I know the most awful. Put a put a link on the chat as well about the production in legs. You know how How do we know? Because it's so easy, you know, mentioned creating an account and speaking about things on social media. How do we know that information is accurate? How do we know it's worth listening to And how about the same time you're engaged people to listen to what you have to say when is important? Absolutely refund. I know that, you know, fill message on the chart saying that we have solar. So for the amazing prices on the main stage and the closing remarks so much more, you know, I know we need to have another word shelf of this to go over some other tell friends we had until, like, three more questions And you didn't Five more came from this discussion. So and I just throwing those something that I just wanted a food back to the guys from medal because way and all them at learn the nurses as well on. So we had a little girl of metal live in February on some of the sessions? Absolutely. And actually from the use of perspective, who was signing up on on on on joining in on their actually from We've had a great favor. April on From May onwards, all of our sessions are going to be around for a medal life. So it's gonna be it will be really interested to see how this progression happens. I'm still gonna start at that biotin been weapons. But I've taken the plunge doing gates. Yeah, absolutely. In another platform to assist about any absolutely metal doing great things. And then as someone said this, this leaves the taste off. I want more. So this has been way over front, and I we just wanted to say how grateful we are to hear from today and the amazing since sides. And I think really it has no finished. We have a lot more to discuss and hopefully, you know, we can continue this discussion. I know on a podcast or a webinar Siris or Twitter thread, you know more, you know, or in prison or all the above. I'm comfortable yet known for nights. Absolutely. Thank you. So so much for agreeing to come on and having this chat with us. To be honest, it's it's a muscle. It eight that they started discussions that that hopefully, um and and I can carry carry on through our careers and hopefully everyone can be aware of. I just wanted to point a so Mr Summons Fleming, Mr Simon Flemings present a shin and the ace it conference this year was amazing. I would say If you guys can, please could take a look at it. If they recorded version is available, it's It's absolutely fantastic. It's so powerful. A bit of a trigger warning, though you want to say what it's about before people just get you something for it. Yes, I mean, he he didn't mention it in the the, uh, indeed. So this discussion is, Well, it's It's about rape culture in medicine itself. And it was It was really powerful the way it was conveyed. It was completely silent with just, uh, clicking through public. And everyone is just concentrated on hepatic the topic, which is amazing to see. And it brought the light. What? What hasn't been off it? It's lesser talked about in medicine. I think we just need to before we go, we just need to acknowledge one other questions question that we we really wanted to address, but we don't have the time to which was the sort of medical professional profession is not limited. The doctors is limited, the nurses' health care professionals, everyone, and we were gonna ask the differences in engaging the different type of audience as individual experiences are whether you guys focus on the on one particular heart to the masses, and that was something that we were hoping to bring about. But we will try to email and try to get this conveyed across to the audience in some particular way, because when it comes to medical education, people always think about and in no friends tell me when people always think about educating the medical students. But that's this big. Even more and more such was so much more that it's much more than that. And that's something that needs to be brought the buckets. And I think everyone here on this wart shot today, you know, definitely go give all of these amazing people today. Are all of these amazing professionals a full, um, you know, go. We'll learn with nurses. Lesson too. Big picture medicine. Go and see the working past me and also the clinical research that the ultrasound has been doing. Follow Simon onto it order because literally so much entertainment from there. A swell and some lovely discussions and notes, Um, it's it's very it's, I would say, definitely it's worth it, and hopefully some more discussions like this coming in the future. But massive Thank you. Know, Simon, stuff us in. Kayla. Joe Rabban. Thank you. Thank you for the amazing insights today. Again. Thank you so much. Well, join these guys. Hopeful you enjoy the closing remarks and prizes this well. The goodness. Bye.