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IR Juniors Radiology Application Series: Portfolio Building

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Summary

This on-demand teaching session is the perfect opportunity for medical professionals to learn about the radiology application timeline and scoring. Participants will be guided by three experts - one radiologist and two colleagues - who will cover topics such as the application process, self-assessment, portofilo building and MSR A. There will also be time to discuss and ask questions, ensuring that everyone comes away with a better understanding of the requirements for applying and being successful in radiology.
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Learning objectives

Learning Objectives: 1. Recognize general dates and processes related to the radiology application process. 2. Understand the five categories assessed in the self-assessment score and what scores are required in each category to receive the maximum points. 3. Understand the importance of shadowing, additional degrees and postgraduate exams for self-assessment points. 4. Demonstrate an understanding of the purpose and value of quality improvement projects. 5. Develop a plan to gather evidence for quality improvement projects and audits needed for self-assessment.
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The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

Yeah, that should be working. Now, can we see how many people have joined someone? You pick on people, and then it says, Viewers, there's people tab on the right. It looks like there's quite a few people signed up, so just wait a couple of minutes people to join. Also ones written high in the chat. Hi there, Mohammed. We're just waiting for some people to join before we get started. What we'll do, I'll put my slides up now and then we can get started. Still see people joining. Okay, so you should be able to see my slides now. Mm, yeah. Okay. I think most people joined, so I think we should get started. So Hi, everyone. Welcome to the radiology application Series. By are genius were specifically looking at portfolio building today. And, um, I'm seeing I'm one of the radiologist, the ones at 26 I've got two of my colleagues who have joined who also going to give this talk Anthony and Cola. So I think most of you have probably heard about a genius. We're dedicated group Who are that? Help you apply for radiology and help you through the process because we know it's very stressful and dotting applying for radiology, especially because it's getting too competitive year, year on year. I think the plan for this talk is we will go through, uh, the application steps go to self assessment and then we will stick to doing questions at the end, because I'm sure there'll be a lot of questions because things change change around every year. If you do have any questions. Meantime, feel free to put it on the chat, and we we can get back to it at the at the end. So what about us? We asked you one from across the UK So from West Six West Midlands, um, and all over. And the good news is you have chosen the best specialty. Any radiology trainee of speak to any radiology consultant. Do you speak to They never have any regrets when choosing choosing radiology. So everyone's very happy, and job satisfaction is really high, which is good news. Now we know that it's a stressful and daunting process, so hopefully you know this topo make you feel a little bit less taunted about applying for radiology. So the timeline for radiology is relatively the same every year. So the application adverse should open next week on 2nd November. And the application itself will open on the third of November. And then you have a month between So 3rd November 1st November was to get your applications sorted. Get your references sorted. Um, and make sure you submit your application by four PM on the first of December. And I'm sure you've all heard about the dreaded MSR A. And I think the dates for this year predicted to be from between the fifth to the 17th of January and this is based on the GP dates. Usually the same data is GP applications. So we're going by those days for now unless they, you know the next couple of weeks and now something differently. But it will be the first couple of weeks of January. The interview dates for this year are yet to be confirmed, but we will keep an eye out for those. They would probably come out until December time, and the offers are predicted to get released on the 30th of March. So when you do look into Oreo and you're about to make your application, this is the overview of the application timeline that you will, you will see. So first step application base is when you fill out your self assessment and you scored your portfolio and you do your generics. Put your references in. Put your details in. Once everyone's applied, they a long list everyone. And this is mainly based on this, all based on the person specification. Um, and if you literally just Google, take a radiology ST 1 2023% specification, you got it there, and it's very generic and broad, and majority of people will get long listed long list for that. It's often very long. Listing is the main process of the application starts We do is when you do them MSR a in January and based on the MSR a school, um, they will decide whether you'd be short listed for the interview or not. Now we're gonna have a separate talking them Sorry in a couple of weeks, so just watch out. Watch out for that. Um, and once you be short for the interview, you should get an invite, Um, for the interview itself, Um, we've been we've been confirmed that it will be virtual virtual again this year, which make things make life a little bit easier in terms of traveling. Just need to make sure you don't have any technical issues. And then when you're there filling out the oral form, this is so vaguely what it looks like. You can see this was last year's application form. Um, it's similar timeline of closing at four o'clock on the 1st December and the two main things to fill in our training history. So just you know what? You have one enough to your clinical fellow jobs, Where and then there's obviously references. Um, with the references, there's usually a couple of people who get caught out with not contacting the referees in time, so make sure you contact them now, um, in preparation for filling out the form. Um, so that way, there's no you're not stressing, you know, on the Fourth of December. And then obviously it's a self assessment. Next, I'm gonna hand over to Angela to go through the self assessment scoring? Yep. So hello, everyone just going to give you a brief run through off what? The self assessment scoring was like last year. Obviously, we haven't had this years self assessment scoring, so I can't give you specific details on what this year's will be. But there are a few predictions that I've tried to make, um, so if we move onto the next slide, so last year it was basically split up into five categories. So the first one any research into radiology career in radiology that you've done the second one being any additional degrees qualifications that you have a third one being any sort of order in quality improvement work that you've done fourth one was teaching, and fifth one was any research and publications that you had. Um, I assume that they will be quite similar this year, but we'll talk about some updates, Um, in the next few slides. So for the first one, so as a whole, the radiology self assessment score was split in. Every category was split into two points, so the maximum points for every category was two, meaning that the maximum score was 10, so you could either score to one or zero in every single category. Um, so for this first one research into the career of radiology, you would get maximum points if you spent three or more days in radiology, for instance, doing a taste a week, Um, and this is one of those really high yield areas. So this is something that you can make a change on if you haven't already done. So to get the maximum points in this area, there are some things that you won't be able to change now. But this is one of those things. I urge you to go away if you haven't already done. So get get to taste a week in your local department, Um, off at least three days. But I'm not sure about this year. They might be increasing the amount of days that you need to spend in the department. Um, but go away and try and email the person who's in charge of organizing taste weeks at your local hospital, Spend some time in the department, and if nothing else, it will give you something extra to talk about in your interview as well. Um, And then one point for that was just spending time, obviously less than three days for last year's and criteria. And hopefully no one should be scoring zero in this area because it's something that you can change It's a high yield topic for you to go away and do something about now to get maximum points. So next one. So the next one was this sort of additional degree undergraduate, exceptional under graduate training category. So this is the category where there is going to be changes this year. So, um, as per the hee talk that happened, I think a week or two ago, Um, it looks like they're scrapping all additional degrees as part of self scoring for all specialties across the board. Um, and it's not mentioned this year in the radiology. A personal specification either. So I think it's, um I think it's good to sort of say that this is probably not gonna most likely definitely not going to be part of the scoring process this year. So previously you get points for sitting parts of, um, M r C E P M R C s etcetera, but it doesn't look like that's going to be the case anymore. And again for additional degrees that you might have done alongside your medical degree like indicated Bs CS again. Those are very unlikely to be scored for this year, and that's it. Cross all specialties, not just radiology. So I'm not sure what they're going to do about the undergraduate prizes, and they haven't mentioned anything yet. But hopefully by next week, when everything goes live, we'll have a bit more clarity on that. Or if they're just going to get rid of this section altogether because without the additional degrees and the Post graduate exams is not very much encompassing this section next one. So third section was any sort of quality improvement projects, things that you've done as out of medical school. So nothing you've done in medical school is going to count towards this section. So scoring the maximum amount of points here, you would need to make a significant contribution, um, to a quality improvement project and have closed the loop, which means that you've done something about it and retested it and got the data again. Um, and they're quite clear on the fact that it has to be for that maximum point. It has to be a closed loop audit or quality improvement project, and on top of that, so you needed to have done that, and you needed to have completed more than one so more than one project a year so ideally two or more every year since you've graduated. So if you're five years from graduating, then you would have needed to have 10 different projects that you need to evidence with at least one presented at a regional, national or international meeting. So that sounds like quite a lot. But hopefully, as part of your Ercp, you've been doing regular quality improvement projects. Um, it didn't specify last year that these projects have to be radiology related. Um, again, I'm not sure what this year's will be, but hopefully it's the same. Um, so any quality improvement project or audit would count towards this? Um, I think the biggest piece of advice I can give is that Get your evidence as early as you possibly can, because it's really difficult to chase consultants to sign letters off for you. Um, evidencing that you've done your audits or your quality improvement projects. So the best thing I think to do is to draft a letter yourself stating the key points that you need covering. So in this case that you've made a significant contribution that you've closed the loop and that you presented it wherever you presented it, draft a letter out, email it to the consultant or the supervisor that you want to sign it, saying that you've done this. Would it be possible for you to check over this letter? Obviously make any changes. Should you wish, um, and just give it back to me. Signed by the state. Um, you're just more likely to increase your chances of getting a letter back if you write the letter yourself, I found, rather than getting a consultant who is busy with other one to write the letter from scratch. Um so for one point in this section, you need to do exactly the same as getting two points. But you complete, um, basically less than two a year. And then hopefully no one scoring zero in this section because, as I mentioned is part of your ercp. Hopefully you've got at least one audit in something per year. Excellent. So teaching teaching is again one of those areas that you can make a difference on now, even if you haven't done anything towards this. So, for maximum points here, um, you can either have a sort of qualification teaching, which obviously is something you can't do right now or you can have made a major contribution to regional or national teaching program. And that includes organizing a program, Um, so this again is something that's very easy to do, even at a relatively local level. Um, so organizing teaching for medical students If you get in contact with your local medical school, they're always looking for people to help teach the medical students, especially after Coated Um, And then you can. You can make that a regional sort of teaching scheme by involving a couple of different medical schools and doing it on an online platform. It's even easier these days to get regional teaching. Um, so hopefully you can see that that's quite high yield area, where you can get the additional two points. To get one point in that, you need to basically demonstrate evidence of any sort of formal teaching. They don't specify how much you need to do so, even if it's just getting feedback from a bedside teaching session, or you talk a couple of medical students how to read some chest X rays, get some feedback from it, get a consultant to sign a letter off for it, and you can submit that as evidence. Um, and it says all evidence of attending a teacher, the teachers course, but obviously they they're quite expensive. And if you're not funded for it, then the easiest thing to do is just to organize a very local teaching session. So I think everyone should be scoring at least one point in this section, if not two. Given how easy it is to organize regional teaching online these days. Next one. So the last section was research and academic publications. So this is obviously one of those sections that if you haven't got anything already sort of in the works closing, um, completion on publication, you're probably not going to get maximum points in this section. Um, so I wouldn't stress out about it too much. Now, if you're planning to apply this year, But just to clarify for maximum points, you would have needed to complete a PhD, which is obviously not going to be most of us. Or you need, um, to essentially be first author in two or more reviewed publications. I wouldn't stress out too much about having it having apartment I d or anything like that. as long as you have a letter that says it's been accepted in a peer reviewed journal. I know plenty of people that that evidence was counted for last year. So don't worry too much about the public. I d, um, or if you co authored more than two publications again in a peer reviewed publication. So that would get you the maximum of two points. And then one point would just be if you were first author in one peer reviewed publication or co author in more than one peer review publication, or they're giving you some points for radiology related post a presentation as well. So if you've presented that poster at a national or international meeting so again, they haven't made very many sort of specifics about any any of this being radiology related publications apart from that very last point there again, not sure how that's going to change for this year, I would imagine it stays relatively the same. Um, but hopefully don't stress out too much if you haven't got publications. Hopefully, you can see there are other areas where you can make up your points. Um, it's definitely not something to stress out about this place in the game next week. So essentially the biggest changes that we see coming for the next cycle is the removal of the additional points for the interview later degree, um, no point to any post graduate exams and just remember that all evidence must be obtained the day before the application closing. So this brings me back to the point I was making earlier about getting your letters drafted, sent out, making sure you get them back. Obviously, we're coming up to sort of Christmas period. People have lots of annual leave around this time. The last thing you want to be doing is chasing people at the very, very last minute. They're very serious with the deadlines. If you miss it, you will not be scored for anything. And that's happened to people that I know. So please don't be one of those people and get organized early on. Start writing your letters Now. If you haven't done anything, start organizing yourself to do a taste a week to get some additional teaching done to get that feedback, Um, and all your letters signed. Put it in a little folder on your computer and that way, it will make it easy for you to upload the evidence and now hand over to my colleague to tell you about how to upload your evidence. Yeah, thank you. So, as an said, I will just take you through a little bit about actually uploading the evidence. What kinds of things that you can upload that will be counted so that you can make sure you hit those points. Um, can we have the next slide, Please, honey, Thank you. So after you submit your application, um, as an said, all the evidence that you're going to upload needs to have been achieved or completed by the time of application submission. Even if your publication gets approved for print or, you know, for publication the day after the application deadline, you cannot upload this. However, you have about four weeks a month to upload the evidence after the close of the, um, application window. I mean, you'll be given the specifics for your application cycle, but if I remember correctly, it was about four or three weeks, 3 to 3 to four weeks in our year. So you submit your application first week of December, and then you have towards mid, you know, to end of December to actually upload everything. But everything you upload needs to have been achieved by that, you know, first of December date or whenever it was. Okay, we can have the next slide, so you'll be given a link for a website where you will upload all of the individual bits of evidence for each category. And when you log onto it, it's very intuitive, very easy to use. It has the five categories listed out you click which category you want that to fit into, and then you just title that piece of evidence clearly so that they can know exactly what you've put there. Um, most of it needs to be kind of in pdf format, Um, so that, you know, that can be not like a word document, but you can save it as a pdf so that, um, you know, that will be nice and easy. Okay, so here is just an example of what that page looks like after having uploaded all of those different items so you can see, like on that left hand side where it says domain tag. The Q one Q three Q four. So you don't need to just upload one document for each individual category. You can upload multiple documents to support each category. However, there is a balance to strike there. You don't want to upload absolutely everything you have For every individual qualification, they will give you some guidelines About what? Um, you need to upload. So, for example, in the category of, um, the taste a week, um, you can upload your I'll talk about this kind of on the next slide, but you can upload your taste a week. Um uh, evidence. And then let's say that scores you're tasting evidence and additional evidence of commitment to specialty in radiology. Be really careful in that kind of category, because in that specific category to score two points, there's two parts to it. There is a taste a week of at least three days and any other additional evidence of commitment to specialty. So there's two things that you need to make sure you've evidenced when you upload that. If you see what I mean, so you can submit multiple pieces of information. For example, for my taste week, I submitted the um signed letter from the consultants saying that I've done a taste week in that department. And then I wrote reflections on the individual days, and I did that at the time. Because the the struggle is when you've done the taste a week a month ago trying to remember what you learned, what you saw, what you, you know, did who you chatted to can be really tricky. So if you haven't done yours yet, I would strongly advise you to just each day at the end of the day, spend like, a couple of minutes, take a couple of notes. I just wrote it on my phone about what I saw that day, What I learned that day, what I enjoyed that day. And then I wrote a reflection on Horace, actually, because I was an F two at the time and that counted in my horse, as you know, audit. Um, excuse me as, um um, you know, career, um, like insight into the future career. There's like a tag on that for us, and I literally just extracted my reflection from us as a PdF and uploaded it onto this self assessment portal. So that was beautiful. It was like a signed letter from the consultant and then the, um, reflections on what I actually learned and gained and seen from the days so that they know what my, um, taste a week entailed because my consultant letter did not have that information on there. Okay. Can we have the next slide, please? Um, so what evidence should you actually upload? So I've discussed a little bit about, um and and as well actually mentioned about getting letters from consultants and as and said, I'm strongly, strongly encourage you. I think the biggest piece of advice I can give you today is to start collecting the evidence as soon as possible. Start collecting it. Now, I can give you an anecdote, you know, of of one of my personal experiences, which I hope will further encourage you to start collecting evidence. Now, Um, when I was an f one, I did my F one F two at two different trusts. And then I applied to radiology and F two. So, um, there was kind of not much time in between. So in my f one, I did two audits, and in my f two, I didn't do any or I hadn't done any at the time of the at the time that the application was coming up when I did those audits and if, when I didn't necessarily get any evidence for it at the time, which was the biggest mistake when it came to um, needing to gather this evidence, I emailed the consultants that I had worked with in my F one for those letters. And unfortunately for one of the audits, the consultant that I worked with was a locum consultant, and she had left the trust and the registrar that I had done the audit with. So it was me, a registrar consultant and a few others. Um, the registrar was actually a post CCT fellow in the department, and she had also left the trust because she had just done a one year fellowship and left, and this was around this kind of time. So end of October, and it's kind of like August August that these years run for us. So that was an extremely painful experience of trying to contact them with their personal e mails with their personal phone numbers, and I couldn't get through, and eventually I ended up having to, um, speak to one of the other consultants in the department. Thankfully, one of the audit was presented locally in the local department. And this, um, consultant that I emailed was there. And I heard the presentation so she could vouch for the fact that I was part of that, um, team that did this audit and it was presented at a local level, et cetera. That was very, very painful. In fact, it got so painful to the fact that I just started a brand new audit in my F two, which I completed within a month as quickly as possible, because I was worried that those letters would not come through. So I just started a brand new audit and just completed it, Um, painfully, But I knew that I had to get you know, something in that category. Okay, so, um, in summary, going back actually to the evidence to upload, you can upload signed letters from consultants as evidence of your, um um, achievements. So, uh, they will accept that for sure. And ideally, that should be on letterhead paper so that it can show what trust that has come from. Okay. Some department also give a taste a week certificate instead. Um, instead of like a sign consultant letter, you might get a taste of weeks certificate. I think it's and alluded to. It's It's a very, very good idea to draft a letter and send it to the consultant as a proposed letter and ask them to please make any changes and send that back to you. Okay, And that's exactly what I did as well. And that worked absolutely fine. Okay, I talked a little bit about uploading your reflections on there, which is also a good idea if you do audit Requip getting the signed letter from the consultant, Um, regarding the teaching category, there's a few different things that you can upload for teaching so you can actually upload some of the teaching material. If you perhaps, um, developed a teaching course or, um, you know, just develop some teaching some slides, you can literally upload a sample of the slides, but I think what's even more valuable is to upload some feedback forms and if you possibly can, um, some feedback forms showing some area of improvement. So maybe you gave a particular teaching session, got some feedback, and then from that feedback. You acted on it and then got some feedback from later, um, teaching sessions. It's not necessarily going to change your score. It's going to be exactly the same. But it just shows, you know. And I think it's something that, as well that you can talk about an interview, um, your ability to take on feedback after doing things like teaching and to act on it to improve your teaching for the next time. Okay, Um, yes, I think that's what I wanted to say about that. And indeed, if you upload any poster or public or if you, um, or if you're submitting evidence for post or publication, you can literally upload a PdF version of that poster or pdf version of the publication. And that's exactly what I did. Um, one of the particular categories. Um, I had to, uh, email the RCR for a letter just to say that I did this presentation and they provided a letter, and that was also accepted. So it's not just letters from consultants that are accepted. You can upload letters from organizations as well as as your evidence, Okay. And I just put something on the bottom there just a tip to update your CV in the process of going through all of your excellent achievements that you would have gained up until this point to apply for radiology. Um, often you will be looking through all the things that you've done in medical school, etcetera. And actually, that's a beautiful and perfect time to update your CV because you would have had time to think about and process and go through and rediscover all all the things that you've achieved. And it's a perfect time to update your CV. It might be even the first time that you've done a professional CV since you've been a doctor. And actually that came really in handy for me is when I started s t one, my educational supervisor asked me to send her a copy of my CV, and I was just so relieved that I had done that because it took hours and hours to do that. And I think I would have been stressed out. Just have to start doing that at the start of my S t one. So that's just a small tip just to let you know as part of our application cycle, Um They asked us, uh, only submit evidence that you have obtained since starting medical school. So any achievement that you've obtained, it should be since starting medical school. Nothing, you know, from a level or pre that time. Okay. And really, none of these things would have happened in that time anyway. But just to let you know. And if you are someone that's taken some years out or done other jobs training other specialties before deciding to apply to radiology, they ask that all of the achievement that you, uh, submit regarding radiology should be within the last 10 years. So if you've done, perhaps, maybe you're registrar or senior registrar and another specialty. If you've done any audit etcetera, and it was over 10 years ago that will not be accepted as part of the application cycle. Okay, we can go to the next slide. Thank you. So, um, as as we kind of discussed earlier, there's a few things that are high yield that really are worthwhile doing if you haven't done yet and can help you just kind of maximize your your points in each category. Um, really. As I said as well, there are some things that you just will not be able to realistically achieve in the next one month, when your application deadline will be. It's not realistic. You won't be able to achieve it. But that is okay. Focus on the high yield things that you can achieve. You can achieve a taste a week, but get organized and do it early like, um, so he and I are both in the West 60 Naree, and we've had a taste a week. Doctor come to spend time with us pretty much every week since we've been here. So a lot of people are finding out about radiology. A lot of people want to get a feel for what it's about. It's becoming more and more competitive by the year, so even to organize a taste a week can be a little bit tricky. So please try and do that as soon as you can. If there isn't availability or space in your local hospital, reach out to neighboring hospitals. I did a test a week in two different hospitals, and that was absolutely fine. Just email. Um, any consultant. Okay, um, other things that are realistically achievable within a month. Surprisingly, you can do an audit within a month. You don't need to think about something groundbreaking or revolutionary there is. If you type in our see our audit recipes on Google, there will be tons of just absolutely beautifully designed audits that are ready to go. There are Excel spreadsheets that have all the columns of all the data that you need to collect. They tell you how many patients ideally you need for that, um, audit to be kind of, um, kind of worthwhile, you know, to have a good patient population. So it might say, You know, you need 50 patients ideally, and it will give you the Excel spreadsheet. You just need to put in the data. So I highly, highly encourage you If you have not done any audit, just pick up any of those from the are see our website or any that is very easy to achieve within a month. And I do. And as I said, I was on GP at the time. Those are only working 9 to 5, so keep that in mind and I was able to just bash out an audit within a month. Okay? And I got a letter from the consultant and submitted it from my radiology application, and it was accepted and I scored the points. So I was happy. Okay, it was worth it, All right, if you haven't already done any teaching or you have done teaching, but it's not at a regional or national level, you can organize something on teams or online that will be regional or national. It is extremely possible it doesn't have to be radiology related. Or at least it certainly didn't in our year or any previous years up till now. So it's very much worthwhile. And in fact, now that I've done a little bit of radiology, I wouldn't even feel confident Teacher, anyone how to report a Chest X right Now that I've actually seen cardiothoracic radiologist reporting chest X rays, I wouldn't even want to teach anyone how to do something radiological. So if it's something like anatomy, for example, like teaching anatomy, teaching your anatomy something like that, I think it's something very accessible that that you can do okay. And if you've done some work already but just haven't presented it, you've done an audit but haven't presented it. You've done a quality improvement project haven't presented it. Find a way to present it. Just find a way. Ask. You know, whatever consultants you're working with, working with often trust will do. Like education days or local medical schools will do education days where you can just ask for, you know, submit your audit that you've already done to be presented. So if it's just a case of presenting it literally, just do some research and see what is coming up. What kind of especially online conferences are coming up that you can perhaps submit this work too, If it gets accepted, You know, in the next one month that you can present it at okay, you can do essay competitions. So in that category where we were talking about where you're no longer going to be able to achieve points for B. S, C S or M R C E P M R C s, um, there's a possibility that you might still be able to get under graduate prizes in that category if you get two or more. So if you do an essay like there's some RCR undergraduate essay competitions, you can submit an essay, and I'm not sure if any of them necessarily, um, will fit before this application cycles deadline. But let's say you're planning of applying maybe in the future year, or if you're not successful this year. It's very worthwhile trying for s a competition as well. Okay, there's some things that can actually be counted in two categories. I know that. That was certainly the case for me. Um, we did, uh, kind of a lot of work in our radiology society. At my medical school, um, we were able to publish a paper and present are the work that we did in the society at the are See our conference, the undergraduate conference. So that counted as two things both doing the paper and presenting on it essentially counted as two separate things. So you can actually score in two sections for one achievement, which is just fantastic. Um, and if your portfolio score is not strong, please do not be discouraged. There is more than enough opportunity for you to, um, excel in the m s r a and hopefully in the interview, and that can push you, you know, way above the portfolio. Scoring is quite limited. There's only a maximum of 10 points that you can get. So if it's not, if you if you're finding that, actually, this is not your strongest suit still do your very, very best in MSR an interview and hopefully you will still get through. I just put on there that there was an applicant last year in our application cycle who only had a portfolio score of three. But we're still offered a spot in the knowledge Diener E can have the next slide, and I just kind of included this graph. I don't know if it would be helpful or or harmful, really. But I just I just wanted to include this because this is the kind of thing that I find really helpful. I think it'd be so nice if we had, like, the stats of every applicant, you know, from every application cycle to analyze things like this. But unfortunately we do not. I found a spreadsheet on reddit from radiology applicants who applied in our application cycle. The three of us so applicants who are ST ones at the moment who, um, inputted there, um, scores that they achieved in each of the three categories. So that's portfolio score interview score and MSR a score, and they put their overall rank and where they were offered a training post. So, um, there was maybe about 100 people who put in their details on the spreadsheet, and I just extracted out of that those who were successful, I think I told you there was about 70 applicants who were successful. Uh, excuse me. No, it wasn't up to 70. It was about 60 from that spreadsheet, and I just tried to extrapolate that. Unfortunately, it's just 60 out of maybe, you know, 2000 and something, but, you know, just a little bit of data. Just so you know what kind of scores people are getting on their portfolio and if you can see, it seems like from that small data set So I can't say that it's necessarily reflective of everyone who applied, but the majority of people scored eight in their portfolio. Okay, but I think anything 6789, 10. That seems to be kind of where most people are scoring on the portfolio. So it seems to be kind of greater than five. I think is where most people who are successful applicants of this year we're scoring. So just to keep that in mind roughly so, you know, kind of what, um, was the case for last year, and we can do the next slide. All right, So we hopefully have left plenty of time for you to ask lots and lots of questions, and we'll do our best to answer them for you. Okay, So, having a look at the messages, feel free to send in your questions on the chat. Um, I'll just read out a couple and then hopefully between the three of us, we can give answers. So the first one I'm seeing do you know if we still get points? The m r c e p m r C s there is not sent out an update this year but removed it from other training programs. I think having seen it from the Hee webinar the other week, I think it's safe to say that they're no longer including these points across the board for any specialty. So I'd be very surprised if come next week, you find that they do hold points. Obviously very disappointing if you've done the exams already, but you're in the same position as everyone else. So they're not going to give it to someone and not give it to you. I think they just removed it for everyone. Um, Marissa says, can we sit? The m s are outside the UK. Yes, I believe there's a piercing you centers all around the world. Um, I think it just requires a little bit more, uh, planning. And I think they have a more limited seats outside the U. K. But I believe it's still possible. Um, and I think they do have a limited amount of online seats as well. That again requires a lot of organization. Um, we've got do audit loops need to be completed within the year the audit was started. Um, no, I would say that, you know, if it's a really strong audit and you've got a large data collection, Um uh, and it crosses over more than one year. I don't see why that should be a problem follows on to the next question. Does the audit is if the order is not closed loop, it doesn't count. I believe that's yeah. So I think it needs to be a closed loop audit, regardless of what kind of audit you're doing for it to be counted. Um, I don't know If you guys want to do anything further on that, I believe it has to be closed loop. I think it has to be closed loop if it's to score the two points, the maximum points. But I bashed out an audit in a month and I scored a month. I scored the one point. The only thing that kind of deterred me from scoring to was it was not presented at a regional or national level. So I think even if you haven't actually close the loop, but you've done at least two a year. So in total, I have done three. But unfortunately, they had all been, uh, presented at a local level. None of them were presented at anything greater than that. So I think if you lead the audit because I literally designed it from scratch, did all the data collection myself, did all the analysis myself and presented it myself. Unfortunately, I think if you did that, that is a major contribution and therefore it does not necessarily need to be closed loop. So if you've done a very major contribution, it's still going to be acceptable, but it needs to be, in addition, to be presented at a national or regional or international level for it to account for the maximum points. I think the way that they have worded certain categories of the of the radiology self assessment score for last year was a little bit open to interpretation, more so than other specialties. Like I've seen the ophthalmology one. They're very, very, very specific. That's exactly what you need to do. So I think there is room for interpretation with the radiology one. So if you can see if you can try and convince someone that your evidence counts for that section, I would go ahead and do it. If you think that it would count, submit it, um, so can the feedback forms be filled in online? Or do they have to be printed and signed by the students? So I I know I submitted, Um, I just created like a Google forms for some teaching that I've done, um, and that was sufficient evidence. But I also had a letter from the consultants saying that I delivered the teaching as well, so it was sort of a joint um, letter from consultant with feedback, but the feedback didn't need to be signed by the consultant. Um, if we're coming from another specialty of them for me. Sorry for the feedback forms. No, um, I was going to say, with the Google feedback forms, you can literally download the feedback as an Excel spreadsheet and or have it downloaded as a PdF and upload that, and that would be absolutely fine. So if we're coming from another specialty, are there more flexible? Are they more flexible with audit themes? So as for our year, there was no there was nothing to say that your audit had to specifically be radiology related. Obviously, it gives you something extra to talk about in an interview. If it is, even if it isn't, I'm sure you can spin it in a way that it would be, Um, but that shouldn't be a problem if you've done stuff in another specialty, Then as of last year and all years prior to that, they were still happy to include that. Um, so that shouldn't be a problem. We have a letter to the editor publication in a peer reviewed journal. Does that count? I'm not sure. I think for the radiology applications. If you look at the scoring criteria, they haven't really specified what counts and what doesn't count. So if you do have that, I will submit it. Yeah, if you don't actually have the publication. If this is all you have, then go for it and submit it. Especially like yeah or opthamology and surgery. They've been very specific that that, you know, the letter from Medicare wouldn't count. But I think for this just go for it. Um, I did a taste of last year taste a week last year. Do I have to do another one? I don't think so. I think I think as long as you've appropriately reflected, you've got your evidence for it. I don't think you have to do one every single year. So if you've already done it, you're already ahead of the game. Um, if we do an audit in final year of medical school, can that count or does it need to be post graduate? Did you want to answer that one in our application cycle? It did not count if you did the audit in medical school. So it had to be Post graduate audits. Yeah, I had the same same experience. Unfortunately, it was pretty much nothing from medical school's counted. Everything had to be from foundation year. So as soon as you qualify, that's when your evidence gathering starts. So, unfortunately, if you've done a lot of stuff in medical school, you can talk about it in interview and you can submit it is commitment to specialty. But it's unfortunately not going to count for your audits and your publications and that kind of thing. Just getting into the R. C E R rated reach mentoring program count as a prize. I mean, if you don't have any other prizes as such, and you think that this would count towards being a prize, I don't think there's any harm in submitting that, Um, and seeing and seeing if they, if you're essentially all your self assessment criteria, goes to like a consultant panel who decide whether they're going to give you the point based on the evidence you've submitted or not, and then there's an appeal process after that. So if you feel like you've been marked unfairly as then, you've submitted evidence and you think you've got less points than you deserve. There's like a 72 hour window in which you can appeal the decision and then, um, and a different person will have a look and see if they can score you the points. Um, so if you've got something in a category and you think you can submit it for a certain section, especially if it's worded in a way that's quite vague, go for it and see if you get the point. The worst that happens is you don't get the point. If we attended the R. C o annual conference, does that count as commitment to specialty? Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good one, especially if you attended in the last few years give you something to talk about again. An interview with a self selected three week placement in IR during medical school count as part of the commitment to specialty instead of a taste a week, Um, I think it would count as part of a commitment to specialty, but I'm not sure if it would count instead of a taste a week. Um, I think you need to do an extra taste a week just to show that you've I had like a radiology in general rather than specifically. I are because you have to do diagnostic before you go into I r Yeah, I think just to be on the safe side. Um, definitely Try and organize an actual taste a week. Um, and your eye are sort of s s e at medical school would count towards your commitment. Um, do prizes for poster and all presentations. Countess prizes. Um, I'm not 100% sure on that one. So the question is, do prizes for post and oral presentations count as prizes. So for our application cycle, the the literal wording says I have received a prize in my undergraduate studies. So if you received it during your undergraduate studies, I would submit it as she said, like, it's very vague. And I think they keep the wording quite vague intentionally, because there's such a spectrum of people's achievements. So I think if you're claiming in that category for two prizes because you don't have the other things, then yes, put it in, you know, But if you have definitely the other things, that will definitely score you the two points in that category. Put those other things instead. So it's just a thing of if that's what you've got in that category and those are your best and highest scoring achievement in that category, submit it. You know, just submit it and put your evidence, and you never know. It might be it just might be counted. The wording is very vague. Uh, the next question. Do audit certificates issued from the audit department are they enough as evidence? Um, I would say yes. Um, I would I would, where possible? Get some sort of evidence signed by your clinical sort of lead. So whether that be a consultant or registrar alongside any sort of evidence. Like what you get from an audit department, though that's just to be on the safe side because you don't want your evidence to be rejected on the the fact that you haven't got sort of a clinician signature on it, so it's relatively easy to get that done. Like I said, just write a letter and get your consultant to sign it. But if you have certificates from audit department, that should also account what would be the ideal. Uh, S are a score to get a spot that's an impossible question to answer. Um, I think you should be trying to do as best as you possibly can on the MSR A because I mean, last year it counted towards a third of your overall score. So it's not about getting to a certain market is trying to do as best as you possibly can. Um, and we'll be doing a talk on the MSR in particular. That would be happening next month. So keep your eye out for that just to bolster that point. I just have that same spreadsheet. Or I got the data about the portfolio scores I tried to look at, like, kind of how my scores compared to other people just out of curiosity, you know, after everything was said and done. And, um, I was looking at a similar candidate to me who had the exact same portfolio score and the exact same interview score as me, but then had about 50 points above me in the M s are a 50 points. I don't They don't actually tell us what's your maximum like what the maximum possible emissary score is, So it's It's difficult to know, but it seems to be somewhere in the Maybe I think the highest I've ever seen is something like 615 but I don't know, um, the exact highest and lowest I've seen is probably in the late three hundred's. So in essence, they had about 50 points above me on the MSR A and we were exactly the same in the other two parts of the application. And they were 100 people ahead of me in the ranking overall, so 100 ahead of me in rank based on, like a difference of about 50 points in MSR a. So there is no ideal score, as I said, but the very best you can do in the m s are a is a very, very, very good idea. It's extremely important, I think, just to tag on the back of that, the only thing that really the main thing that will differentiate you from other candidates will be your MSR a school because it has the the biggest amount, the biggest sort of stand normal distribution curve. So doing as best as you possibly can in that exam will be the thing between you getting sort of your lower rank job versus a higher rank job because that's the most potential for things to go Very well or very wrong in that exam. Um, do courses count towards commitment to specialty? Yeah, if you can Evidence that that course has been sort of radiology related, then I don't see why not. Um, you mentioned publications. Presentations will be radiology slash non radiology. Um, I'm not quite sure what that question means, but if you're asking for our year, they didn't specifically say that anything have to specifically be radiology related. They left it quite open. So, um, uh, the presentations and publications could be for anything for maximum points. Also, um, for evidence, can you please clarify what question 123 stood for in the example given So question question 12 and three was just relating to the sections in the the five, the five categories that I was talking about. So whether it was teaching, whether it's commitment specialty. So you you'll find out when you get on to that portal thing that you have to put all your evidence in, you have to tag all of your evidence into which category it would fit into. And I think that's what you're asking that question so you just have to tag your evidence based on what category it fits into. And they are. The five categories that were mentioned in the slides is a is a reflection, a must under the commitment category, I eat taster know so reflection is just one of the things that you can put in. You don't have to, but it might be quite a nice, um, want to help you help force you to write a reflection, because again, it's quite a good thing too right at the time. And it's quite a good thing to talk about an interview. And I promise you, if you haven't done a reflection at the time, you will not remember what what you are going to reflect on, which makes it harder when you're trying to prepare your interview answers. Does teaching in own trust count for any teaching point? Yes, so it should count for your like your one point for local teaching. Obviously, to get the maximum of two points, you need to make some sort of major contribution to teaching program, which was essentially be, um, like running your own teaching program regionally and The easiest way to do that nowadays is online, but local trust teaching would still give you a point if you can get, um, some evidence for it. If I claimed two points for taste a week, can I score the same project for Q I Pee and publication? I'm not entirely sure what the question means. I know there was. If you guys can remember the year that we applied, there was something about not having a poster that's presented and something else. But I can't remember off the top of my head what it was. I think the for the commitment of specialty. If you had a post in the commitment specialty section that then couldn't be used again for the Q u I P. Section. So that would be two separate entities or two separate projects. Yes, so I think the person is trying to say they've got they want to get two points in the commitment to specialty section. So the first section and they've got to taste a week. But then they want to show their other commitment to specialty. Can they use Oh, wait, no. Can I score the same project for Q. I pee and publication. Oh, no. Sorry, but yeah, I think what she was talking about regarding that rule from last year. So there was a caveat on the points claiming system that said, um, if you present a quality improvement project, you can't say I've done a quality improvement project and I've presented it. So I'm going to score that in two separate categories you're presenting of a quality improvement project at a national level. Was getting two points in that category and presenting it at a local level was getting one point in that category. So for that section, both doing the quality improvement project and presenting it has to be just within that section. But if you did, you know a second project that so he said and presented that, then you you could count it. But you can't count Accu. I project that you presented in that Q I Pee section and then count the presentation again as a let's say, commitment to specialty section. If that makes sense, tell me if it doesn't so if we've organized teaching sessions nationwide as part of the society by recruiting speakers, even though we haven't taught it, does that count as organizing teaching program. Um, I don't want to tell you 100%. Yes, that it does, but because I would assume that having a major role in a teaching program would actually be doing some teaching because it does come under the teaching category. Um, but that is the only thing that you've done. Then again, um, there's nothing that specifically says you cannot submit that as evidence as per the wording in that section. But I am not sure if you get the full points for that section, especially if your letter is suggestive that the only part of that teaching that you've done is recruiting speakers because technically, that's not teaching. I don't know if you guys have anything else to add on that one. I would submit that evidence and and see if it gets your point because you have made a major contribution by organizing it. So if you play that way, you know you got to play with what you have. I think definitely if you can. If you can work it in a way that will work for the and then go ahead and submit it, it's all about being smart with what you've already done and trying not to do too much extra. Um, does authoring questions for national question Bank contribution to medical education Website capture a point under teaching? Um, I would say Probably not. But I'm not 100% sure. I think teaching like I think it's better to take teaching in its, um, sort of sense of organizing. Teaching. Um, so, like that question before about recruiting speakers, organizing, teaching and delivering teaching, I wouldn't necessarily say that question bank writing would count towards that. But again, if it's the only thing that you have and you can find a way to word it, then submit it. Does. Q. I, p. Uh, count. If it's non clinical relating to teaching practice of a medical practice. Yeah, I don't think there's any sort of stipulation on whether it needs to be a clinical Q. I pee or not. Um, as long as it's some sort of quality improvement, you've got some. You've collected some data. You've made a change. You've collected more data. I don't think it really matters whether it's clinical or not. So the same person is asking. Does radiology related presentations publications score more points. So as per the uh scoring criteria for our year and all years previous, it didn't score you any extra points again. That could be subject to change this year, but it didn't matter what subject to your presentation or publication was in To get maximum points. It did not need to be radiology related for that one. Uh, in the in the final category, Category five, the research category, there is a specific point where not to get maximum point in that section, But to get one point in that section, you have to have done in radiology related presentation at a national presentation or poster at a national or international level. So I think that was the only category where it had to be specifically radiology related. And that was to score one point in that section, not for two point in that section. Yeah, um, if I claim two points for taste a week, can I still use the same project to claim for Q I pee and publication? I think we've already had this question. Um, is there any benefit of having an MD rather than M B Bs? Any benefit for having written a thesis. Um, as far as I'm aware, as long as you're medically qualified, that's part of the long listing process. It's part of the person specification. I don't think it makes a difference regardless of where your medical qualifications from. Um, and if by thesis you mean a PhD, then that does gain you the maximum amount of points. Um, but I'm not sure if that remains in the scoring criteria for this year because it counts as an additional degree. So I'm I'm not entirely sure, um, if it will still be part of the process this year. But don't obviously don't go. Most people will not have a PhD or thesis, so don't worry too much about it. Do protocol submissions count? I'm not sure what that means if you If Adam If you want to clarify what that means, I'm happy to answer it again. Would review articles count for publication category Again? Again, I think again it's a case of they haven't specified what counts as a publication category, so I would submit that I have a teaching certificate states that I taught medical students from one specific university for three consecutive months, similar to teaching criteria for maximum points for I M t. Would that be considered as one or two points for ST one Radiology application for the full two points, you have to make a major contribution to a at least a regional teaching program. So if you can stretch that out to be a regional program, then yes, you get maximum points. If not, then it would definitely come for one point. If it's just one. Sorry if it's just one medical school, it only counts as local. But if it's to medical schools, it counts as regional. So invite medical students from a second medical school. Is my big advice coming from a person who only did for one medical school as well, but very, very extensive teaching? They don't mind how extensive it is. You could have done it for 10 years and done an amazing job. But if it was just that one medical school, it only counts as a local. Can eight week course in med count the two points in teaching domain? Um, if that's the only thing that you have in that section, then submit it again like we've been saying for all the other stuff, Um, but if you have formalized teaching, then that's probably the thing is you don't want to stand out too far from the crowd. You don't want them to question too much about what you're submitting. So if you submit similar things to what everyone else is submitting, you're more likely to get accepted. So if it's something like this where it might not be sort of run of the mill, everyone submitting the same thing, they're probably going to question it a little bit more. Whereas if you're submitting just a teaching session that you've done with some feedback, whether it be regional or local, you're more likely to just have no problem and get it approved first time around. So if that's the only if the eight week course is the only thing that you have for maximum points, then submit it. If you have something else and submit both of them and hope for the best and see which one gets accepted would passing MSR a next January count in the next application round 2023 to 2024. So, um, you have to sit on the MSR A for every single application round So even if you're trying to So this is round One application. If you want to sit for round two and you already submitted an application for round one, you would need to sit The MSR a again is what I believe is correct. Um, so you can't carry forward your MSN or a mark? As far as I'm aware for any, um, subsequent application cycle, how do you advise providing evidence for an audit? So we briefly went through this. Um, do your audit. Write a letter to your consultant. Whoever was supervising you, um, saying that you've contributed. You've made a major contribution to the audit. Would you mind checking this letter? Um, and get them to sign it, make any changes if they want to make any changes, get the letter signed, and then you can just submit that letter. Graduated in 2016. Had a career gap of three years. After that, I started working on a total of five audits and CRP. Would it give me four points, as I have not done? Thank you. I'll be in my career gap. So I think when it comes to specific questions like this, I think it's almost at the discretion of whoever is going to be. Um, whichever consultant is going to be marking your thing, I'm not entirely sure what happens when you've had career breaks, but it will be part of your real application if you have had career breaks. Um, and you can always make an additional comment, um, saying that you believe that you have maximum points because you've done X number of Q u i. P s for the years that you have worked. But you have not. You've had a career gap for this year to this year or these years. Therefore, you haven't done it. You can add that as an additional comment. So, um, again, it's at the discretion of whoever's gonna market. But I don't see why you should need to have things when you were on a career break. The prize is from the trust count. I mean, yeah, I don't see why. Not again, that they're very vague with their sort of working on things. So if you think it counts, then if that's the best thing that you have for that category, submit it. And the worst that happens is that they say no demerits. Distinctions in med school count as prizes, so I don't again similar situation. They're not as specific as certain. Other specialties are. So you know certain other specialties you have to have scored like the top 10% and have a letter that says that there's nothing like that for the radiology application. So if you have something to evidence that you've got a merit distinction, then I don't think there's any harm in submitting the evidence. Where do you distinction class honors count. So we went through this at the beginning. Um, it doesn't look like they're going to count this year in terms of any additional degrees that you have. If you've got a distinction or honors in your medical degree, that's the place where it may count as additional prize. There's a limit to the number of documents that can be uploaded per category, as far as I'm aware, know, But obviously, just remember that there's a consultant at the other end of the screen who's marking it, who's going to get very bored if you've submitted 100 different items of evidence, so be be as specific as you can be, uh, submit the things that you think are going to score you the most points, not just everything in the kitchen sink, because it will get very tedious. These people have to mark probably hundreds of thousands of applicants. Every applicants portfolio will be checked. So just remember this and one on the other side. So try and be mindful, um, and submit the best things that you have to post his presentation. Publications have to be presented after medical school. Yes, I did Radiology residency 15 months abroad, during which I did one audit. One. Q. I pee before relocating. Do I still need to do a taste a week and audit in the UK? I'm not sure about that one, I think for that one. For the sake of your interview, it's really much. It's very much worthwhile doing a taste a week in the UK and ideally, if you can order it in the UK because I think doing a taste a week in the UK shows that you have observed the work of a radiologist in this clinical context, because abroad it might have been a very different clinical context. The radiologists work there, so I think, for the sake of your interview. If nothing else, I think it's probably a good idea. The the scoring is not specific. It doesn't say where it has to have been done. It just says three days or more in the radiology department observing the work of radiologists. So I think it'd be really difficult to talk about that especially, You know, in this in this context, if you haven't done in the UK, as if that is, if you're applying in the UK If you're applying from abroad, then of course, they don't expect you to fly to the UK, do a taste a week here and then fly back. But if you're, uh, if you work abroad and then now work in the UK and you're applying in the UK, I think while you're here, it's very, very worthwhile. With the Orioles application, Can you save and come back? Or do you have to submit the application in one Go? Um, no, I think you'd have a very difficult time if you have to submit it all in one go. You can definitely save and come back to it. Uh, just remember to click the save button. Otherwise it does not save. Do you know which sceneries are easier and harder to get into? Um, so again, that's a bit of a loaded question, because it changes every year. Um, and I don't think you should go into it necessarily with the mindset of applying to a place that's quote unquote easier to get into. It's a national application process. So, um, it's better to choose a place that you'd actually heard good things about the training program and heard good things about sort of the area, and you feel like you'd be comfortable living in that area. Um, it goes without saying that bigger cities are generally more competitive than smaller areas. Um, the South is generally more competitive than the North, but that's a massive generalization. Um, I think, um, Color was saying about this. Read it, thread about places and people scores. So that might be a good place to get some sort of further information, if that's specifically what you're looking for. But we will also have a talk on training programs, um, and sort of what different places offer because it is quite varied across the country. Um, so keep keep a look out for that one as well. It will be coming after Christmas, closer to the time where you might want to choose which area you want to apply to. Do you teaching course is taken online, can score on the teaching section, Um course and 80 hours long and gives sort of the certificate at the end of the course. So it sounds like you've done you've taken a teaching course not delivered teaching. So if you've taken the teaching course, I think it counts as one point. Um, because it's sort of equivalent of the teacher. The teachers course. Um, but I don't think you'd get two points for attending a teaching course online. You would have to find some way of delivering or organizing teaching online. I've participated by recruiting candidates for covert recovery trial. Would that give me any points? Um, I guess it would depend on how you could word your letter of evidence. So if you if you can get someone to sign it off for you, um, that it doesn't really count as a teaching program. So I'm not sure exactly what category You necessarily evidence that under, um, but if you can find a way to make it fit in one of the five categories, then go for it is the general consensus. Uh, so you don't have to present a master's thesis at the end of the medical degree in the UK If that's mandatory in my country, can I use my thesis for extra point in the degree category so that they are quite clear that the so sorry I was misunderstood that the thesis was a PhD. So they clearly say that it needs to be a PhD. So if if your thesis was part of your medical degree, then I don't think that would count. Um, it would have to be something that the whole point of that section is that it's additional to your medical degree. Um, so I don't I don't think it would count if it was already part of your degree and know we don't have to submit this this here. Thank goodness. Um, I would, uh, first class honors in undergraduate pre medicine masters. The pharmacy give you two points. Same as with an interview later. Degree would. So, again, I think it probably would, um, as long as you have your degree transcripts and stuff because it would, in my understanding counter sort of a prize if you're scoring the first class on us. But some places are more specific on that. But radiology has chosen not to say that you have to also be in the top 10% of the of the year group, so I would definitely submit that if that category still exists for this application cycle. Um, if I claimed I spent three or more days in a taste a week and have additional portfolio evidence of radiology audit, can I claim the same two projects for two points in the audit part one point for the publication? Sorry, it's still unclear, I think basically, if you're if you're unclear about what you can and cannot claim points for, it was pretty, It was said pretty much in black and white on the Oriole application, so I would wait another week until the Oriole application opens, and then direct your questions after that because they did make it pretty clear on what would count in what category and what wouldn't count as overlapping categories because I think we've already mentioned that there are certain things that you can use as evidence across multiple categories, but things like poster presentations would not count. If you're doing it as your quality improvement project in one category, but also using that as your publication in another category, they would have to be two separate things. And they did make that pretty clear, Um, in, like written English on the oral application. So I think if you're still really confused about that, wait another week and try and make sense of it by reading exactly what they said. Because again, everything that we're saying on this talk is based on previous years stuff we none of us know what is going to come next week. So if you have very specific questions, probably better to wait and then direct the questions afterwards. What exactly should the letter about the audit contain? I think we've already said that your experience with the consultants be happy to complete a reference letter after the taste a week, or does it have to be someone who worked with so in general, I would choose someone who has seen who you've worked with for a couple of months at least, um, that there should be someone if you worked clinically for for a year. There should be at least a couple of people like of a senior level that you can ask for a reference for. I think asking for a reference for someone who has met you for a week is probably not the best. UM, a couple of months, at least, I would say personally, but I don't think they have a specific sort of time line on that. So if that is the only person that you can ask, then I guess you can. There was some guidance given to us as well in the application form, so just keep an eye out when you apply for yours. If I thought it did say it had to be one of your educational or clinical supervisors, someone who has worked with you in a clinical context that she said, So you can pick from any of your educational and clinical supervisor is that you've had so far and put three of them down. Um, does it taste a week? Have to be after medical school? Yes, so you can do things like electives and students elected components that all counts towards your commitment to specialty. But the taste of it has to be as, um, post graduate. Is it the same application for IR? Yes. So, you, uh, training scheme in this country is that you do diagnostic radiology, clinical radiology first, it's all one application. Still, um, there are currently a few I our jobs. Um, specifically, I our jobs in the UK But again, you're still doing the same thing for the first three years. Um, it just means that you're guaranteed a job in I are post s t three. As opposed to a competitive application that anyone else who chooses to do I are would have to do at ST three. So it's all one application for right now. What do the references involved? Do they have to write recommendation letters, or do they complete a form? How does that work? So all you have to do an oriole is give three different people's email addresses and their relationship to you. For example, if they're your clinical supervisor, your educational supervisor, the rest is done behind the scenes. I'm not actually entirely sure what they ask for. Um uh, because I've never seen this letter go out, but I assume it's some sort of very generic letter saying that your sort of a person that they they've been in contact with closely worked with, They don't have any sort of major problems with your conduct and professional behaviors and that sort of thing. I don't imagine it's highly specific. No, it's not. The information they need to put on it is limited, and they do get kind of information about what they need to put. I asked one of my education of supervisors what that involves, and he just said, It's generally just a very genetic simple letter and he can pretty much right the same one for every single person who asks him for one. So it's very general is the reference about taste a week or the crust form. So the references that we're talking about the minute are just like Oriole references. Um, it's nothing that you particularly have to worry about. You just have to provide three people who would be willing to give you a generic reference on your sort of conduct. As a doctor. It's got nothing to do with radiology. Specifically, you need to submit references for any application that you're doing, um, for any NHS job basically. So it's it's got nothing to do with the taste of equal request. For So that is the end of the questions as I see them on the chat. Just had one more Just teaching experience from abroad. Count? Uh, yes. Uh, I don't see why not. There's nothing to say that it has to be done here. Uh, any teaching, get some evidence for it and submit it. Should be fine. So I think we've come to the end of the questions. One final one. The references have to be consultants. Or can they be senior clinical fellows? Um, I'm not sure what it said in the guidance. All mine were consultants. Um, I'm not sure if it said anything specifically. I'm just pulling it up now. So it says you must provide the contact details of three referees who have supervised your clinical training during the last two years of your employment or under graduate training. One referee must be your current or most recent consultant or educational supervisor who is familiar with your work in clinical development. So it doesn't say that they all have to be consultants. But it says that at least one referee must be your current or most recent consultant. And you can, um, there is a generic email that they provide when you're applying that you can ask questions to. So if you get to the point and you're really stuck and you just don't have an answer from anywhere, just email them and they can advise you further. Yeah, they're they're actually quite responsive. So if you if you do have so after this talk after next week when hopefully things are a little bit more clear on what the process is and what the application scoring is. If there's any questions, they will send you the email address and they are quite responsive. And, um, hopefully you'll get an answer from them about any discrepancies that you might have. But I think that's the end of the questions. Thanks everyone for joining us in the session today. Um, and thanks for all the questions. Hopefully, you found that useful. We'll have our next application series talk next month, and that will be covering aspects of the M s are a exam. So I think we'll call it a day. They're Thank you, everyone. I'll just send out the feedback form after everyone that's on there. Yeah. If you use. If you provide the feedback, you get a certificate of your attendance today. So I've just seen a question. Can use the certificate, um, as attendance certificate office attendance as evidence. Yeah, that's fine. That's commitment to specialty. Yeah. Okay. I think we'll record that day there. Looks like we don't get any more questions. Thanks everyone for attending.