Computer generated transcript

Warning!
The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

Oh, yeah, I do. Do I need slides? No, it's fine. Positive is fine. Ok, thank you. Sorry about that. Do I apologize? It's all right. Um We are live now so everyone can hear us. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining our first event. Um Welcome to the first session of our national SFP course. Um I'm just going to share my slides before I start properly talking. So just bear with me for a second. Ok. Hopefully everyone can see that. Um If you can one of the speakers just mute and let me know. Um But otherwise can see that. Welcome to the first event today is our inductor event. So we'll go through a few different things about how the course is going to work um about how I work and then we'll have a panel discussion with all of our speakers who very kindly volunteered their time to be here and the all different deaneries across country. So they'll be able to give you a really good idea of sort of their own experiences, their application process, um what they did to get to where they are and then we'll have panel discussion which is Q and A from you guys. So, taking um you know, any questions that you want answered um to the panel and also other general questions that we've come up with that might be helpful for you to know about as well. Um If you'd email us our emails there, we also have an Instagram and a Twitter and that's probably the best place to sort of keep an eye out for um reminders about the events happening. You can already sign up on medal like you did for this one for all of the other events. And then medal will automatically email you a day before and just remind you that it's going on. So I would highly recommend doing that now. Um just so that you remember the dates of all of the other events too. So today's session, like I said, we're going to just talk about the course, quickly go through what sessions are coming up. Um Talk a bit about why our SFP course is different and more unique um than some of the other national ones. Um Talk about basic introduction to the SFP and the academic training pathway um and discuss experience of various SFP doctors nationally as well as having a Q and A with the panel. So the Norwich SFP course, I think the name confuses a lot of people. It's not just about Norwich, it's a National Free SFP prep course now in its fourth year running and our aim is to just help students with the application process by demystifying it step by step. Um And some of the things that we've changed this year that are unique to our program are that we've implemented a sort of longitudinal mentoring process. So at the end, we'll release a sign up link for that. So if you are interested in having a mentor that goes through the entire application process with you, sign up there, um you'll be matched to a current SFP doctor who again has kindly volunteered their time to be part of this program. And what that will mean is that they will review your whitespace questions, work through interview preparation with you, give you pointers as to what exactly to expect in your interviews. Um and also do mock interviews with you. Um the White Space question review and the mock interviews aren't restricted to people that sign up to the mentoring program, but we do have limited capacity to offer those things. So we do recommend that you sign up to the mentoring program and that will give you more exclusive access to those things. Um Mock interviews and things will release sign ups for that specifically later on in the program because those will happen towards um mid to late November White Space question reviews. Um You'll be able to sign up for from late August onwards. Um But again, I really recommend signing up to the mentoring program as a whole so that you have the one mentor that's going through the whole thing with you and kind of understands where you're coming from your background. Um And can really tailor their advice to you. We also will be having a post offer event. Um I know that when the offers come through, it can be quite a difficult time for people in terms of um what do you do if you've got multiple, what do you do if you've got one? And you're not sure about it. What, what do you do if you've got none and you're devastated and you want to know more about how the cascade works. So we'll go through all of that in a post offer event in January as well. So our course timeline. So today is our introductory session. Next session will be on the fifth of September. So the sessions are essentially happening every other week on a Tuesday. Um Just for familiarity sake, so that you, it's easy if you remember every other Tuesday at 7 p.m. is when the sessions will be running and those will be by different members of our team who are all um current SFP doctors and they will go through things like first of all, writing your White Space questions. So hopefully, you've already seen that the White Space Questions for this year have been released. Um I personally do recommend starting them early rather than um stressing about them right before they're due. Um so that you have time to sort of perfect them. And signing up to be a mentee will be between this session and next session will also release the link as well. After that, we'll be going through approaching the personal station and academic plans. So, whilst London, if that's why you're thinking of applying doesn't usually have a personal station. Lots of other deaneries do. And if they do, it tends to be one that matters to them quite a lot. So that session will be going through that and how to approach supervisors come up with a plan that you can then talk about in your interview for what kind of research you'd like to do in your academic block or if you're doing a management and leadership one or a teaching one, what else you can think about doing in that block? Um After that, we'll be going through the academic stations. So thinking about key terms within the critical appraisal, key questions that you need to be asking yourself when you appraise a paper. Um and also going through some basic statistics. After that, we'll go through the critical appraisal structure and work through some examples of academic stations um followed by clinical stations and common. And after that point. So after the seventh of November, that's when our mock interviews will happen. So who are we? Um this is our current committee. Um We are all SFP doctors like I mentioned um from various medical schools and various backgrounds. So, we are very diverse and all of us will also be mentors. So, if you sign up to that, you might meet one of us there. Otherwise these will be your tutors for the lecture sessions. And then I'm gonna hand over to Nesta to talk about what the SFP is. So, hi. I'm, I'm, I'm, um, an SFP, um, down in Norwich, uh, up in Norwich, whichever way you're joining us from. Um So hopefully most of you are aware of what the specialized foundation program is. Um But just a quick run through just to set, set the ground, everybody's on the same page. So previously, this was known as the academic foundation program. So it changed its name to the specialized foundation program. It is essentially the same program, but it's now got this, um, idea where we can between three different the slides have gone. I'm just using myself, hang on. Um, so there's three different strands for the specialized foundation program. So these are split between, um, research, which is what a lot of us have done and how this course will focus on. But it's also important to recognize that there's the teaching and education strand and the leadership and management. One, um the layout of the SFP varies quite a lot between the different deaneries. Um But all of them essentially consist of protective time to conduct the above. Um Really the, the best part about the SP is, it allows you at your first step of your career as a foundation doctor to be able to explore academia, education leadership and that can then progress through into your remaining of your career. So, applying for the SFP, we'll cover all of this throughout the um Norwich SP, a foundation um application course. Um but just a few points to note earlier on if you're thinking about starting and especially if you're applying this year. So everybody that applies to the foundation program are eligible to apply. You do your application at the same time as your foundation program, application is all done through the system of Orel. An important point to note is that applicants can only apply to up to two of the specialized unit of applications. So oas and that can be different to what the dearies are for the foundation program. So for example, the East Anglia Deanie has two of these, which is Cambridge and Norwich, but then it also encompasses an East of England Medical Education, one as well. So within one, what would be a dean through the foundation program that can actually end up being three different specialized units of applica of um application for the SFP um Important to think about your white Space questions early as Cathy mentioned, um they do take time um get together all of your educational achievements that you've done throughout medical school. Um And that will be important and less stressful when you're trying to not only write your white first questions but also fulfilling in the or um you then have your interviews, which you can be invited to again, preparing early is really important for these. You won't know your um whether you've been shortlisted for an interview until very close to when your interviews are. And it's definitely better to prepare early and then you have enough time preemptively to, to prepare for those interviews. Um The selection process varies locally um as to how they score you. Um And how much they take into consideration the weighting of these different parts like some of them, for example, don't use your whiteface questions at all. So it's important to be aware of this before you start applying. Um And then something just to note um if you accept your SFP offer, you're automatic, withdrawn from the normal um SF um normal foundation program allocation. And if you don't get an SFP offer, then you'll be automatically put into the F the foundation program allocation. So it doesn't mean that you will have a, a job at the end, you'll still be put us into the foundation program. So really, there's not anything to lose in that aspect. So I mentioned earlier about this is your first step of your career um and being able to explore academia at an early point or education or leadership. Um So how does the SFP really fit into a career in academic medicine? So, as you can see from, I really like this diagram. So this shows how the academic or the specialized foundation program you do that in your foundation years. Um that can then lead you on to be able to complete um a clinical um teaching fellow. Um So you can do that. Um So that's an academic clinical fellow. Um and that's 25% academic, 75% clinical. And then that moves you on to become a clinical lecturer, which is 50 50. And then from there, you can look to become a clinical senior lecturer. It's really important to you be aware of this um in terms of career progression because if you are looking to be to do an academic career and you're going to aqui in the interview, it's important to be aware of next steps and what you want, wanting to achieve and what you want to get out of your uh specialized foundation program. So, onto our panel. Um So what we're going to do is we're going to go round our panel. Um They're excellent SFP doctors from across the country, all trained at different medical schools um and at different deaneries now. So they'll be able to give a really good overview um into their experience of the SFP their application um and some top tips as well. So we'll just, we'll just go around in, in order and then at the end, we'll have the chance to um have some question and answers. Um So if you start thinking of your questions, we're going through and then, then we'll come to that at the end. OK. So um in terms of the questions for everybody, what we would like you to come talk about for a few minutes is where you are um the application process for that, why you chose to go there um and things like that. So if we start with Jack, yeah, I don't mind. Um So I did have slides, we were having some issues with it. So I'm gonna go off the fly. So I'm Doctor Wellington was weird to call myself doctor Nova. I am doctor Jack Wellington. I studied at Cardiff University. Um and a little bit about me is I um I graduated within the top 10% of my cohort getting honors. I published quite a bit. So during medical school, I managed to publish above 50 articles which was, I don't know how I did it, but I did um I indicated a master's at the London School of Hyden tropical Medicine and I got some other like international National Committee stuff. So that's a bit about me. Um And I applied to Yorkshire and Humber Deanie and Oxford Deary. Um and I want to particularly follow academic neurosurgery. So I wanted an SFP which encompasses one where I'm allowed to do a research track. So I went down the research route two where I wanted a block. So instead of having an just academic day release once in a while, whatever like Wales does, sometimes I wanted um a block where I can dedicate my time, which is like four month protected time to do a piece of research where I can try and get a fist or the publication which would strengthen my application to neurosurgery. Um And I thought that would be good with these two respective genes. I also wanted to try and get an s job within neurosurgery, try to get some experience. So this is where I'll talk about the differences between where I applied. But Yorkshire Humber had that edge where the three of the rotations had neurosurgical jobs in in F two. So that's where that's where I applied knowing that if I got re hum I'd be very happy, obviously getting a neurosurgical job. Um So the way about I went in the two deaneries were quite different last year in how they selected Oxford was your traditional short list in an interview. Whilst Yorkshire and Humber was actually all portfolio. There was no interviews. I think it's the only dean which does an interview. So you may think that's a good thing. The problem with it, it was massively oversubscribed. And um I believe the portfolio was quite um it was quite difficult with getting all the points. So Yorkshire hu have released their portfolio on how they select it's ver you can work out your score pretty much before you apply. The only catch is you need to send all your evidence before like December. So you have to send evidence to everything cos they'll scrutinize those points on whether you've actually achieved those points with the other like going through Oriel, you don't have to upload evidence. All you have to do is put your publication permit ID and then just list your prizes and presentations and see if they get counted. So Oxford was quite a vague short list and they didn't really tell you how to, you know, um what really constituted points all we knew and all of all I knew from speaking to other people who got in last year was it was very heavy on like E PM, which is now scrapped um publications, presentations and extra degrees, et cetera. So which was a bit different compared to York from where they took a more holistic approach. So before I go on to the interview part, the auction ham the portfolio pretty much split and it's very similar this year, but there's subtle differences um between like academic and extra sort of curricular stuff. So academic is your publications prizes and presentations and extra degrees. Um And then they had um it was very similar to the core surgical and core medical training portfolio, the short list of matrix. So they had like points for research, a research project, um medical education leadership. So if you would, if you were quite a broad prolific applicant who had a lot of these like portfolio medic type, then you would have suited more of the portfolio based application. Whereas Oxford was very academic and then you would get invited for an interview. So I had the Oxford interview. It wasn't the nicest experience. It was 15 minutes, four stations too clinical and then two non clinical, the two clinical stations surrounded like a three approach which you will hate by the time you finish SFP applications. Um because that is how you answer those questions. And it's, they're quite generic, like um they were quite generic stations, so not difficult. The clinical part wasn't so difficult. I thought the research was a bit different. So the non call, sorry, the non clinical research is very, more like a stat station where you have to interpret some data on a table and then talk about projects you wanted to do. And the panel I had expected me to have a project which was already pretty much ready to go. Um And I, you know, that was quite difficult because obviously, if you don't have, don't get the offer, then how are you supposed to do the project? It was really weird. Anyway. Um So overall, I decided then that I got my top job in Ham with the neurosurgery post. So I accepted that. So currently I'm on General Psychiatry um in, in Bradford, which is very, very interesting. Um And you'll realize that please scrutinize the posts when you're looking at all the rotations because sometimes they'll pair SFP jobs with really good ones in like F two and then really rubbish ones in like F one. So really have a look at the jobs and don't just do the sop because there's one, you know, there's just because of research or whatever, you just want to do it, like you have to want to do it to pursue it. Um And top tips from me, get your, get your White Space questions done early. Get if you haven't got linkedin, get linkedin. I, I'm the like the ambassador for linkedin. I love linkedin and you network and get send your White Space questions to people who apply to your deanie. So the one thing good thing about this mentorship program is that obviously you'll get to draft, you know, this White Space questions, et cetera, practice interview a two week like practice early. And if you're going for a portfolio based um application then may um has Jack cut out for everyone make sure that you'll be, oh Jack, you cut out for a bit at the end there. Did I actually, I'm so sorry. Um What was I saying? I can't remember um cut out after you're applying on portfolio. OK. OK. So quick tips. Then do your White Space questions early. Do your interview prep early, do everything early, make sure your publications are on like got me permed ID. Make sure the prizes are um just put everything on your Orel, just, just put everything and if it doesn't count, it doesn't count, but just apply strategically. Like if you know, you're not going to get the points for Deanery, you're not gonna get sure listed for an interview. So just really apply strategically and that's me. Sorry for the cut out. No, thank you very much. That was very comprehensive. Um Well, I'm just gonna go down my list, so I'm gonna go to Jamila next Camilla. Can you hear? Oh, sorry, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now. Sorry, I started without a mu I'm sorry. So my, my name is Jamila. Um I'm one of the London SFP doctors at Guys and Saint Thomas's Hospital in London. Um And I went to Birmingham Medical School and I applied to both the West Midlands Deanery and London Deanery. Um and was fortunately offered um positions at both. So, um so you talking firstly about London because it's often one of the more popular deaneries um mostly because it doesn't ask for white space questions. So it's a lot less um sort of effort is a lot less to apply there. And also it's an aspirational sort of location for a lot of people to live. It's popular foundation program as well. Um So a lot of people apply. Um And because of that, um London Deanery is, has sort of spelled out the exact criteria in their, in their sort of handbook. So I'd recommend, um, Googling London SFP. I, I'll put the link in later in the chat, um, but very similar to Oxford. It's a very traditional sort of layout. You have the short listing and then you have an interview. Um, and recently they've changed the short listing criteria. So, um, so now, uh when you apply, there's a two stage of short listing, you apply with your um pu publications. So only your publications and each publication counts for two points and the maximum points that you can have are 10. So min maximum publications that they would consider are five. and they all have to have PUBMED I DS. Um So for some people, it can be very frustrating because they, they're waiting probably on um a, a publication with an editor to be published or something like an editorial or a letter to editor, wouldn't, wouldn't be considered. So please make sure when you enter, submit it, you have all your publications with the correct put Med ID. Um So the maximum 10 points and then they consider um your Yes, so it's just a, a short listing at that point is just your publications. Um And then the second short listing after that point is based on your degree. So if you did any additional degrees like a um a say you are a graduate entry medic. And so you did a pharmacy degree before a Bachelor's in medical sciences before and even an inter degree. So they count that and the maximum that you can get is four points for first class, first class degree. So that's when like your interc will count for for that. And then they have this weird thing called prizes um and prizes are when you have achieved in the top 10% in a module at medical school or you have achieved uh a national um award or prize, say something from like the Royal College of Medicine or Royal College of S um surgery um essay competitions, all those sorts of things. And my advice at this point would be just try and literally contact your medical school. Ask them if there's any particular module that you've been in the top 10% in um get a written sort of um record of that and then put it in because there's a lot of people who submitted um these prizes and they counted. So and there's a lot and I know there's a lot of other people who held back and didn't, didn't include them. And so they potentially could have scored higher. So at this point, they, the score is now out of 20. Um you get five for your um so yes, out of 20. So and the cut off last year was around um I would say like 15 or 16, I think. Um but this was so last year, they also considered presentations. So we we aren't really sure what it's going to be for the upcoming year. But again, this is all detailed in the booklet. So I don't want to go into too much details if anyone has any specific questions about like London or, or particularly I'm happy to answer them. Um And so you get shortlisted and then you have interviews in November um which are um uh they are intense but they are like, well, they, they inform you what you to expect so you can very much prepare for them and they are 15 minutes with. Um so there's 15 minutes of um reading time of both a clinical scenario and a, a clinical scenario and an abstract. Um At the same time, you have seven minutes to sort of prep each, each thing. And then you go into a room with um a clinician and an academic and they ask you questions firstly about an abstract and asking you to critically appraise it based on the methodology based on any weaknesses, any sort of um um how they've analyzed the data or those sort of things. Um And then they ask you questions, sort of, they ask you to present it um and critically appraise it. And then they move on to a clinical scenario, which is any sort of emergency scenario that could have come up in, say a job on as a medical on call. So for example, stuff like STEMI MP, um stuff like upper G I bleeds and they ask you to go through like an A two E assessment, how you would approach the patient. But importantly, at this stage, the clinical scenario actually has three patients or two patients. And there's often one who's critically unwell and you have to show that you can privatize this patient. And the second one is a patient that maybe you could get someone, a member of the MDT involved. So for example, um a patient who um is having uh or who's had bloods and they have a high potassium and the nurse wants you to come and review them while you're seeing a more unwell patient. You may ask the nurse to um do repeat the news, um do an ECG and then you and you'll come to them to see them um to see them after. Um And then thirdly sometimes scenarios may have an ethical scenario where say a patient wants to self discharge or a patient is um being aggressive and needs de-escalation or um consent issue, the patient ha needs is like, um we're, we're, we're questioning their consent and we need to um see for a full procedure or something like that. And so there's components of that, but, but as I said, they're 10 minutes. So it's very fast paced and the the examiners um of the interviews are, are, are really lovely and they're really like sort of, they appreciate how quick it, how quick. Um the situation is for everyone and how stressful it is. But there was, there's like a very clear layout of how it, it is structured. Um So, and London SFP, just to mention they are, there's North London and South London and all of the, all of the rotations are similar to most of the other deaneries work for four months for the research block and you get a theme within that. So people um rank their themes. Um And thankfully, in my trust, what happens is in F two, you always have your research block and you always have either A&E or acute medicine. And the third one, you always have um a community job or, or medical job. So for me, I have um um D gum and then my research block in like clinical genetics, fetal medicine. So it's all sort of like well rounded in your F two. And in your F one, I think is when you get some of variation, which is based on the trust. Um So please do have a look at your, what you start on. Um And like the rotations because it's not just your academic ones, they are also your clinical ones that sort of make and break it for some people who say don't want to do sci or don't have a preference for a particular specialty. Um And then quickly West Midlands, so West Midlands is um different to London in the sense that it's all personal questions. There are some sort of, um, sneaky questions about, they'll ask you, um, please tell us about a recent article that you've read and critically appraise it, which almost seems like a weird question because how, how are you gonna put appraise a paper in 2.5 minutes? But, um, they're also really kind, really lovely. Um, they interview by shortlisting as well based on the oral, um, application and they never disclose what their short short listing um scores are. But make sure you put any publication that you say you, you don't have any publications, but you have a letter to the editor and you just put it on there because what they'll do is they'll review all of them anyway individually and the least you won't lose anything by putting it on there. But say you do have 10 presentations or something, put those on more than the others. Um Again, they look at um indication degrees and whatnot. Um And please do look also at the locations for me. The reason why I picked London is, was all the sfps in at guys and Saint Thomas's, they're both in central London. So I'm at the, for both years, I'm at a central hospital and I really wanted that which you don't necessarily get with the foundation program. So that was one of my reasons I wanted to do it. I'm also interested in academic pathway. I had really supportive supervisors who, and that's probably the key talk to your university professors, talk to the people you indicated with or the people who give the integration talks to. You just say I'm really interested in applying for this and because the university has a wealth of professors and, and academics that you can literally talk to, um and they're really, they're really useful in sort of guiding you because they'll have students who have, who have gone through a similar thing. Try and find out who the current SFP doctor is in the actual job that you want because that's really useful as well. Um Some over talks, but I'll let you move on to the next one and let me know if there's any questions at all. Um In the meantime. Thank you. Thanks, Rina. Um Next speakers. Can you please try and sit for five minutes so that we can make sure we get around the Q and A properly? Um But we've got James next because James is at work, I believe. Yeah. Unfortunately, I've got nights and let me know if you guys are having any issues come using NHS wifi, but really briefly, um I'll try and keep it brief. So I studied in Newcastle and I INL they doing an M and I applied to the North West Northern Deaneries and this is primarily for personal reasons. I know the northern region and had a good support network in the northeast. And, you know, I'm aware that foundation is as well as the SFP even more. So, it's quite challenging and it helps to have friends and family support that. So it, you know, it could be the best research union in the world. But if you're having a terrible time, ok, it's not, it's not, it's not necessarily worth it. Um So the reason I applied it is that Northern offers two form of blocks and similar Northwest also offers one form of block try and keep an eye on which jobs you're applying to. Because if your research book is towards the end of second year, that would mean that if you were to want to apply to AC F to the next kind of step along this, your research wouldn't necessarily be out in time for the application. So it's quite important to try and get them either in towards the end of first year or the start of second year. And so I applied because Northern accounted for many things such as MS and also given some extracurricular achievements that I had such as prizes, research and charity trustee work. You did best on the White Space questions there because Northern tends to include every single one of the White Space questions. And so I knew I'd score fairly highly and get a kind of interview there. Secondly, Northern was quite appealing because most of the jobs are located close to Newcastle City area. Be that in Newcastle, where I'm currently based in the trust there or in Sunderland, which is a short commute and I was keen to kind of remain living in quite a lively city and have less of, kind of a job that was further away from a city and would either require a large commute or living in sort of a town which doesn't necessarily fit with, with me as a person. So that's quite important. And the location of your jobs north west was a bit more of a stretch for me. Um As it didn't really account for MS and some of the things such as possibly prizes. Um However, the more jobs available in the Northwest region, but sort of um conversely, it's more heavily subscribed. So you, you're competing against more people and it's probably important to judge yourself and judge your strength because I went for quite interview heavy sfps as I tend to be all right at interview. Um But, you know, if you're not not OK at interview and you tend to have quite a bad time tend just to avoid interview heavy sfps and apply strategically and for the interviews themselves, Northwest was very standard. Half of it was a to e if I remember rightly, it was an meningitis A 23 and the other half was a very generic sort of question based interview. So why the region? Why jobs I think I applied for? Yes. So I had applied for just academics. It was why the, why the research strand. But I assume I've got a friend that applied for research and me and they asked, why did you apply for like both of these and to kind of have answers for these? And they also in both interviews asked for what your research plans were and I'll come back to this in a second northern was a little bit different of an interview. It was more like a kind of medical school panel interview. That was one long half an hour blot that consisted of about 8 to 10 questions. Some of them were your classic, why, why the Northern region? Others were more like, what does Q I mean to you? And as we've previously said, somewhat unethical question, I think mine was a 17 year old or a 16 year old who'd overdosed and was refusing treatment. And therefore you had to kind of go through questions about competency and whether they were allowed to self discharge and I've got some top tips. So I'll echo Jack about choosing carefully for your roles, particularly with the jobs you wind up doing that aren't SFP, the only person who cares about the SFP in the region might be you. And so it's not necessarily the be all and end all. And if it's a choice between an SFP and jobs in, in an area that you don't like and choosing foundation in a place that you, you think you would, you would have a better time it might be better to choose the standard foundation program for you. And I'm currently working H PB job, which is kind of famous in the northeast for being a busy ward, let's say, and you will often be given a few hard jobs to make up for the less clinical hours that you have. Um So just be aware that you for yourself, you might want to just have a better sort of selection of jobs that are less challenging. Um I've got two books here that I'm going to put in the chart. The first one is medical and surgical emergencies that A we approach, which I feel everyone basically does prior to interview. It is basically, it's the gold standard for um for how to do the A T scenarios. And the second one is 100 and 50 questions for, for medical interviews and they're not necessarily relevant 100% to the SFP, they're kind of more aimed at um at er surgical applications and, and, and further on down the line, but it's good to just flick through it to gain a bit of an understanding and two final things. Um If you have a current researcher who you've kind of done research with, if they're api or a pro, then contact them and ask them to put you in contact with their, their contact in whichever region you're applying to. So you can just send a quick email to them. Say, look, I'm applying for an SFP. Do you have any roles for me? And that basically means in interview, you can say I've chatted to this person. We're going to discuss, um, plans for the SFP. Um, and the reason why you should do that maybe over just sending out emails is because your PSS will know people and have longstanding relationships and they'll also know you. And so they're a really good, um, kind of person to put you in contact with someone who they know will be good for you. Um, then finally, um, when it comes to getting all of your offers, I was fortunate enough to get an offer in the Northwest and in Northern and I then just based, er, chose them based solely on the jobs that I was offered. And the amount of research time that I had, the one in Northwest was in Alder and Fairfield. So about an hour's commute from Manchester where I'd probably plan on living. And the one that I have currently in Northern is in the city, um, as a result I just chose Northern. It was better for my life. Um, and I think just choose based on what you would rather do, um, for like, er, your own life. Thank you very much for everybody. If you've got any questions, let me know. Thanks James and thanks for, uh, we'll go to Richard next, if that's ok. Oh, yeah. Hi. Um, my name is Richard. I'm one of the SFP doctors in the Northwest. Um Currently at, er, Liverpool Ary University Hospital, um like Nester and James, I studied at Newcastle University. Um I applied to Scotland and um the North West. I got both interviews but in the first cascade, I didn't get an offer from Scotland. I did get an offer from the Northwest. Um and I didn't want to risk, you know, uh not having an offer at all. So I took the Northwest offer even though Scotland was my top choice. Um I mainly like James picked um the Northwest for personal reasons. I'm from Manchester, so I wanted to kind of go back home. I also um had a look at the hospitals in the region and um I, I could identify ain tree as being one of the hospitals I wanted to train at because um my interests are trauma and orthopedics and a tree is a major trauma center in Liverpool with um extremely high volume. They have 52 trauma and orthopedic consultants there. So plenty of work to go around and plenty of research happening. Um I won't get into Scotland too much because I didn't end up going. Um in terms of what the North West in particular um for me uh for my cycle, sorry, what they were looking at for shortlisting. The important bits were your desy score, um your White Space questions and your portfolio uh in that order as well, you, so your you had to have a minimum score of 44 on the E PM. Uh and then they gave you points based on your score. Um And then the white Space questions were worth 20 points and your portfolio was worth about 14 points. So um that made up your shortlisting score if er, they had a cut off, but they didn't publicize that information. Um At interview, the interview like James has touched upon it was um 30 minutes in total 15 minutes for a, an evolving clinical scenario and then 15 minutes for a more personal interview. Er, you know, what's your 10 year plan? Why research, why the Northwest, that sort of thing? Um And that was a total of 100 points and to get the final offer, they took the 100 points from the interview with your E PM score and that gave you your final ranking score. Uh And based on that you were ranked for your jobs. Um I was fortunate to get my top choice job in the Northwest. I got the offer in the first cascade. Um in terms of my top tips for preparing, you know, it's um the application opens in what, just under a month's time. Uh You know, around this time last year, I was prepping my white Space questions, but they hadn't released them for us yet. So I was prepping them based on the year before, which was a good thing because they were the same, but they've released yours earlier this year. So, what I would do is I would look at your deary or take, start having a look at the um the specialized units of application that you're interested in and see if they have any information uploaded yet. I know for the Northwest they haven't yet uploaded any guidance on um on this year's application process which is annoying because they've removed Deles and Northwest was a deci heavy uh shortlisting um unit of application. So I have no idea how they're going to, to do it this year. Last year, they only used two white space questions. It could be that this year they changed it to five. Um You know, we, we, we'll, we'll only see uh early September when they release those documents, but if you want to be safe, I'd start preparing all five. at least at the very least prepare the same two that they had last year, which was career goals and teamwork and start sending those out to as many people as you can, you know, er send them out to your peers who will critique, you know, your grammar and sort of the structure of your answer, send them out to people slightly senior to you, you know, sap doctors that you may know um and further beyond as well. But obviously the more senior you get, the slower the replies you can expect to get and they may not might not be familiar with the process, but I recommend sending them as far and as wide as you can. I'd also recommend thinking ahead for interviews. Um So what Nestor and I did was we budded up at about September time and we did interview prep uh once a week, we scheduled a session in once a week where we did some academic prep and some um uh clinical interview prep and personal interview prep. Um And we did this at least once a week, sometimes twice all the way up until mid mid November end of November. And we both got uh offers in our first cascade. So, um yeah, so prepare your whites of these questions early, start thinking about interview prep early and um choose your, your unit of application wisely, choose one that suits your strength. Um And uh and obviously, yeah, that suits your personal life too. Don't neglect that side of things also. Thanks Richard. Um We'll go to, hi, can you see me? I know it's really dark. Hi there, I'm Sam. So I went to bar and um I applied to uh KSS on London and my story is a bit different because I basically was and eyeing about applying until about a week before the deadline mainly because I just didn't think I was good enough. Um And then I just thought, you know, what's the harm? So one of the main reasons I applied to London is because I knew that I'd get an interview just based off of the really clear guidelines. Um And I had like a couple of publications and posters. So I knew I definitely make that cut off care is kind of my top choice because I'm a grad. So I did a degree before um doing medicine and then I did undergrad maths. So I've been in London, East London because I went to Queen Mary for eight years. So I was just really looking forward to get out of London. But at the same time, I wanted that flexibility to be close enough to kind of, you know, if I, if any events were happening, I could just get in. Um So yeah, so and I also really wanted to live by the sea. So I just got Brighton, you know, of my top choice and I really loved that it had that kind of like city feel to it as well and also spoken to lots of people living in KSS um and more specifically Brighton uh that had done S SPS before and they really enjoyed it, but really enjoyed the location. So that was kind of my rationale and also with KSS in terms of the application process, it's also they, they lay out their um pre interview scoring really clear as well. They focus a lot on based questions, it makes up 60 points out of about 100. So that, that, that's quite a significant portion of it. And then about 26 is to do with your portfolio. So things like publications presentations and stuff like that. Um So if, if you want to apply to KSS, definitely, definitely look into getting started on your white face questions A a because I only started mine seven days before and it was so stressful. Um So yeah, definitely top tip but everyone has mentioned just be really, really proactive. Um And then what else? Oh Yeah, in terms of the interview. So the interview for London, as I think has already been mentioned, just your standard A TE and then also critical appraisal um with KSS, you had an A TE and honestly, it was really, it was quite standard and if you'd practiced for it a lot beforehand, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have struggled with it at all. I think mine was just like a simple pe it wasn't even like an evolving scenario. It was legit like an oy where they give you the facts and you kind of just go through it systematically. They really, really liked um the, the personal section of it. So it split into two A&E a pe and kind of like a personal station. So asking you about, you know, why Sfpykss um they actually threw in some pretty like row questions on there as well. Like what do you think is I remember they asked me, what do you think is the biggest um medical advancement since COVID? And you kind of have to, like, think on your feet and, like, talk about that and it, it seemed like they actually wanted to know more about you than your, like, academic achievement. Um, which is quite interesting because in London, um, I didn't really, I didn't get asked very many personal questions. Um, just trying to think any other tips, one of my tips would definitely be to, like, if you think you're not competitive enough to apply anyway, because I didn't think I was going to be good enough and, but you honestly have nothing to lose. It's really easy to apply. It's just through or um and you can practice a lot beforehand. There are some deaneries where you don't have to do the white too questions such as London. Um One thing I did to stand out in the interview was to really do my research beforehand. So like I, I mentioned to you that bright was kind of my top choice. I, I did um kind of, I kind of stopped one of uh the researchers that works there in medical education and I, like I name dropped her during my interview and the, the, the interviewer seem to really pick up on that. Um And really like that. So yeah, that's one thing you can do to stand up. Um Yeah, and right now I'm my um my supervisor is um uh consultant who, whose special interest is cartoons. And so that's really interesting. Because I, I contacted her very early on and, uh, II I want to do a project in medical education relating to cartoon. So that's another thing that in, in Brighton especially. I'm not sure about the rest of the KSS, uh, medical education post. Um, it's very, very flexible. It's very much led by you, which you might not get in other deaneries. Yeah, I think that's everything I wanted to say. Thank you. I'm Samantha Last, but not least. Hello. Are you wanting me soon? Go ahead now. Yes, please. No problem. Ok. Um I'll keep it pretty short because it's been quite a long time. Um, and I think everybody is just gonna have fatigue from all the information that they've got given. Um, but yeah, my name is Sammy and I'm an academic doctor in Scotland. Um, so Scotland is obviously a very big place. Um, so there's lots of different roles and lots of different tracks you can take in terms of research, clinical leadership, um in general in Scotland. Um, the um, paths are very flexible. Um, they, you can work on any research topic in all of the areas. Um, some places have a block of research and some have one day a week or one day every fortnight. Um, so there is pretty much something to suit everybody. Um, you apply to Scotland as a whole and you can pick, er, whether you're interested in Edinburgh, Glasgow Aberdeen or Dundee. Um, the Aberdeen and Dundee tracks have um roles in education as well as research. And in Dundee, you can also do leadership. Um And in Scotland, you can really make it your own. There's no predefined topics. Um And at places like Edinburgh, you could do almost any um, subjects of research. Um I'd say there's a specific area of research you're interested in. Just double check that there's some research on that topic going on at the local university or, um, the local medical school. Um, and if there is, you're probably likely to be able to join. Um, all the research happens in f two much like everywhere else. Um, and, yeah, I think, er, a lot of people might not consider Scotland, um, especially in the south of England. Er, but it's a great place. It's very pretty. Er, we're getting a pay rise and, er, the contracts are being renegotiated here in the, in the autumn. So we will have better working conditions and hopefully some better pay over the next few years. Um, yeah, since Scotland is a huge area, um, I personally only put down three jobs that I wanted because I was very specific about where I wanted to be. Um, thankfully I got my first choice but, um, other people of course, are more flexible and willing to go across the cities. Um, the great thing about, um, both Aberdeen and Dundee is that a lot of your work is only at one hospital. Um, so I actually won't travel for any jobs, er, this year or next year. So that's meant that I can do things like buy a house and, um, not have to worry about traveling over an hour. Um, if you get a job in Edinburgh or Glasgow, you will probably end up traveling a little bit to the borders. Um, but obviously those, er, locations are very buzzing cities so it's a little bit different to smaller cities like Aberdeen and Dundee. Um in terms of the Scotland application, it's uh very much like some of them that have been described already. You'll complete your White Space questions and get short listed for interview. Um I can link in the information for the, er Scottish program and it very clearly states what the um selection criteria are for short listing and it mostly relies on White Space question answers. Um There are points of things like presentations, publications, but I think 30 out of 50 points are for the White Space questions. Um If you then get an interview, they'll be in November and before that you'll need to submit your evidence. Um Please just make sure you have your evidence ready because the night before I was just panicking, I was away on elective and it was a nightmare. So just make sure that you know, where all of your evidence is and that it's ready to be sent. Er, the interview was four stations over 20 minutes, a mix of clinical er stations and information about research and teaching in the interview because everybody received the same interview. So if you wanted to do the research track, you would still get asked teaching questions. So it's important to make sure you're just looking at what the hot topics are in both research and a little bit about teaching. Um We were asked about things like the allocation to foundation programs and things like that. So obviously, this year, there's been significant changes so that could be a topic. Um um I can't predict the future but um they do ask you about things that are topical um to check that you have been up to date. And um the clinical stations are a to e type stations about clinical emergencies. So, um overall, I'd say my top tips um from my relatively limited experience having only applied to actually one Deanie is that um just make sure that you work hard on the white space questions, get other people to read them um for the interview, be prepared for some questions about research and teaching. Um read up about basic research methods. Um We didn't have to critically appraise the paper, but we were asked about um different types of studies, um different terminology and research. Um So make sure you've read about that, read about um what's going on in the world of medical teaching and medical research. And um hopefully that will be enough to get you through. Thanks so much, Sam. That's very useful as well. Um I hope everyone's found it really useful to hear from our speakers and I sort of realized a slightly last minute, but this being the, no HSFP, we haven't spoken about the NOR HSFP. Um So I will quickly talk about my experience. I also applied to London, but everyone's sort of, um, talked about London already. So I won't go there. I again, like Sam applied to London because I knew I'd get an interview, um, because I scored almost full marks on the portfolio part. So again, if you have a really strong portfolio in London somewhere, you're basically guaranteed to get an interview. So I would kind of recommend being tactical about that. Um, I applied to Norwich as my first choice because I really liked the program. I really thought it was a really nice, friendly Deery and also for sort of personal reasons. Um, the way that it works is slightly vague, similar to, um, Cambridge. So I ranked at the top of this side of the Deanie. So I can basically tell you what I think they used, but we don't actually fully know what they use for short listing. So it's based on what they call research experience, which is similar to the other Deaneries, publications, presentations, prizes. And within that also the research questions of your White Space questions, which are based on things like what experience have you had, what has sort of been your great latest achievement? I can't remember exactly what they were last year, but along those lines, um they use your white space questions quite holistically here. They're scored by two separate um assessors and then you get a combined score based on that. Um, you also get so, er, an overall shortlisting score which is not released to you at any point, whereas in London they're sort of very transparent about what you've scored and if you want to appeal that you can, whereas, um, East Anglia don't really do that. Um, even Cambridge, the shortlisting process, they don't really give you that much detail on. So it's quite similar to Norwich. Um, in terms of the interview process, I found it much nicer than London. I felt like I had a nice rapport with my interviewers. It was really personal, it was really nice. It kind of enticed me to come to the Deaner even more. Um, you have a personal station where you talk about your research plans where you see yourself in 5 to 10 years, that kind of thing, those questions which we'll be going through how to answer in our personal station session. So sign up to that. Um, and then we had an academic station where you were given a paper to read and I think most of us thought it would be a basic critical appraisal but it wasn't at all. It was just them picking out specific bits about the tables and figures. So just a note to be aware that it might not be the structure that you're expecting. So don't be thrown when they ask you to look at other parts of the paper rather than just appraise according to the sort of structure that you've robotically learned. Um And then the clinical interview similar to Sam for me again, it was also very straightforward, it was very similar to an OSI where you have an A to E and they were constantly giving you um responses about the parameters that you're trying to measure and things like that. Um And they were also sort of asking you at the end things about um diagnosis. Um if it's something that has a scoring system attached to it, they'll probably ask you about that. So worth learning those. Um and management. I also use the, the book that James pointed out the um A to E book. It's absolute gold, just make notes from that, learn how to do it as per that. And that will mean that your A TE is really, really strong. Um I applied here specifically because of the Research Park. So I want to do academic infectious diseases here. There's a lot of untapped potential in that the hospital is within something called the Norwich Research Park. So that has the Quadra Institute which is part of UE A where a lot of microbiology work happens. But it's not necessarily really linked to the hospital. So that was kind of what I said in my interview is I want to really come and try and bridge that gap in infectious diseases and microbiology and figure out how we can make those two excellent research opportunities, work together and also just a really friendly approachable place. Again, I'm in the same hospital for two years. So I'll be used to the systems. I don't have to move house. I can stay in the same place, which is really nice. And for me, I also studied at bar, I was in London for a very long time as well. And it's definitely a change of scene if you like the countryside and being in a bit more of a rural area, I would highly recommend it. Um I thought I was a city girl, but I'm very much enjoying it. So I'm gonna hand over to Nester who's gonna start posing some of our questions or questions to the panel. Um If you would leave, I know we've already hit an hour, please do fill the feedback form. Um It will be automatically emailed to you, but I'm also just putting it in the chat now. Um And if you would like to stay just a couple more minutes, I whilst Nesta starts talking, we'll also put in the mentorship. Um sign up for. Perfect. Thank you, Kay. Um So yeah, we're just going to move on to the Q and A section of um today's session. Um So feel free to put your own questions into the group chat. I think we've covered majority of them already in the chat if we've missed yours. Um Please pop in again and we'll circle back around to it. So the first question that we've been asked I asked is sort of, I think a couple of them have been answered from the Instagram, but one of the ones would be, what is your dean particularly known for in terms of research themes or areas feel free just to chip in um for anyone interested in Scotland, it's extremely vast. So um pretty much everything um is done here. There are trauma centers, um all types of surgery and depending on what you're interested in, it may be useful to go to a certain place. Glasgow does a lot of pediatrics. Um There are just lots of different areas. It's just something that you'd need to look into to find out where in Scotland is that you would need to go. Yeah, just to echo. Um Sam So Yorkshire hu again encompasses Sheffield, Leeds and York. So and hold, there's a plethora of things I'm interested in neurosurgery. I know Leeds has got a big tertiary center. Also, Sheffield is a big tertiary center, especially for pediatrics. And again, um up in Hull, there's another one so vast majority of tertiary centers really. Um for the Northwest, I'd say uh there's a good mix of everything you'd have to look specifically. I'm afraid I, I'm not aware of them all but, um, I chose it specifically for a tree for the trauma center. There's, um, it's quite active in orthopedic research, uh, and there's Alder Hay in Liverpool as well. Er, so if anyone's really interested in pediatrics, er, um, you know, that's kind of, it's like Great Ormond Street of the North. Right. Something like that. And so for London again, a lot of um, tertiary centers, a lot of like big tertiary centers, international centers for like surgery, um, and medicine specialties as well, particularly for me, I'm just interested in S and Gyne. So there's a lot of big maternal hospitals here but also around the country. Um, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of in like international research hub in London for a lot of specialties. So a lot of professors here who are affiliated with the universities and we have about four or five medical schools as well which have academic departments. So it's really sort of a hub for that. So definitely keen, if you sort of don't know what you want to do but you have the opportunity to, it's a, it's a great hot spot. Great. Thank you, everyone. Um, so the next question that we have is how should you make yourself stand out in the interview? I don't mind going there. So, for London it's very hard to make the interview about you because it's very standardized. So I think the best way that you can prepare is is by being so prepared and, and sort of like um expect, almost expecting um the structure because they tell you what it is. So it's very easy to prepare for it. So practicing with your friends, practicing in front of a mirror, knowing sort of what to expect, but not also, but also realizing that you, you don't have to say everything. So I think they like being you're able to sort of pace yourself well, um and, and look and sound prepared, I think is really good for London and also West Midlands personal questions. Um It's good to know sort of why you want it, what your passion is. So I think that would stand, make you stand out a lot by being just well prepared. I'll go next. Mine's very easy. You don't need to prepare, there's no interview. So there we go. Um at second uh Jamilla, um definitely being very well prepared. So the clinical station is something that everyone can prepare for and everyone's going to going to be pretty good at. So being, you know, flawless with that is almost crucial. You don't want to be making any silly mistakes. You don't want to be forgetting your sepsis. Six stuff like that, you know, just have your a to be nailed down, have your differentials nailed down and uh your management, er, you know, initial manager nailed down and, and I think that I hadn't prepared for was um who to call for help. So, oh, it's not, it wasn't good enough just calling your regs. It was. What other teams in the hospital would you call for help? Um So having AAA good awareness of like how you would then escalate the acute scenario is quite important because that's ultimately what you're going to be doing. Um And then for the personal interview, it's just, you know, being slick having examples to hand that you can, you know, rely upon straight away. Um er, the Northwest questions are quite generic so they are, you can prepare for them. You can sit down with a list of examples and map certain examples to certain questions and just have, you know, things ready in your head. So you don't sit there ing and a ring for five minutes and then giving you a really poor answer, I think um the interview definitely differs. Um And that there are some questions that you couldn't prepare for and you didn't know that they were going to ask, you knew that there was going to be something on teaching. Um But they did pull a few topics out um from, from the medical curriculum that um unless you'd done a lot of reading around medical education, you might not necessarily have an answer for. But I think the most important thing was to, um for example, um one year they wanted people to talk about OSIS, whether they thought they were a good method of assessment, what could be better? Um Were they, are they beneficial? Um, and I think the way, perhaps if you haven't prepared for something like that is to just sit for a second, think about how am I going to address the question? I don't know, for example, with the OSI, maybe talk about what are the benefits, what are the drawbacks of them? And even if you don't have an answer to the overall question of, are they good or not, you can, you're, you're wanting to make an argument, they don't really care whether you're pro or, or anti OSI, er, what they care about is, can you make a good argument? Are you making sense? Have you not panicked? And have you come to a solid conclusion based on the evidence that you've given? So if you're sat there and a question comes up and if you don't know about it, a lot of people won't know about it. So, try not to panic and try and have a structure, maybe pros cons and a little conclusion at the end that you can come to. Um, if they ask you about something that you maybe haven't prepared, um, and the same with clinical topics, if, maybe you haven't read about it, you can discuss what, you know, the pros and the cons of this research method or that research method and then draw a conclusion. Great. Thank you. Um So just a couple of questions, if just one person takes, takes one of these questions. So when applying, do you rank the rotations, you'll be allocated before or after you receive an offer for us? It was before. Yeah. So from, from my year, um it was, it was from four. So you rank when you select on or that you want to apply for SFP, you then um choose your specialize unit of application, you rank those two and then you rank all of the jobs. Um all the rotations within that and you can um like, I think it was Samantha said, you don't have to apply for every job in that deanie. So if you just want to apply for three of the jobs, then you can um or you can put all of those jobs across and preference them. But then when you are made an offer after um the selection process, um that offer will be just one job, one set of rotations. Um And you can't change that. You have no say in that. So that's what you're offered. Um OK, the next one, some SFP have rotations which say the full month research block. But then the next job is something like academic radiology. What does that job mean? I don't know if anybody had a similar experience. No, I'm not particularly sure. Um I know some of the, some of the specialized units of um application. Um They um specify what the academic block is going to be in. So, for example, Cambridge, um it's within sort of a strand if I remember correctly. So you can pick between Xy and Z which um specialty you do your academic block in. So it could be, could be referring to that. I'd say if you've got any specific questions, then the um, Deaner websites always have an email address. It's worth dropping them an email. Um Just to query something like that because you don't want to put that as a preference and then it'd be something that you don't want. Yeah. So this was a bit strange. So someone I know who did Normal Foundation got an academic component to one of his jobs in, I think it was East. Um and I was like, well, what, what does that mean? And apparently it literally just means that once a week or something like academic daily release, it'll help with Med Ed or they'll help with some research and Amazon Normal Foundation um routes. So it does, even if the SFP is, doesn't prevail, there are some jobs out there. So have a look at the jobs which do have that academic component, which I never knew about. I, I thought that didn't happen but, and I know a couple of people who have managed to literally get academic daily release somehow on normal foundation program. So again, it's very Dean dependent. So, um just, just inquire, yeah, I, I wasn't aware of that but I think one thing just when you're applying foundation overall is to just check all of the jobs, all of the deaneries, all the rotations, you find something um popped into the priority program that you think. Wow, that's amazing. You know, you don't know what you're going to stumble across when you go on to a and you start looking through them. Um Like, like Jack says, it's DNA dependent. Um They change it all the time, they change their rotations. So have a look when you log on to or you have a look through all of those jobs, all of the SFP look all of the normal look through all of the priority program and then you can make a decision rather than just jumping at the first um ado block that you see. Um OK, so, um I'll do the last one of our questions that we were given beforehand. If anybody else has any more, then feel free to put them in the chat and we'll try to get around to them. Um But the last one is just um around, sort of, we've touched on it quite a lot, but the short listing process for your deary and finding out a bit more information. So just I think this, this person was referring to um how, how they go about in terms of dates um and what to do in terms of preparing for, um, your application for the Deary. I mean, I think we touch on mostly but just a, a quick run through, I'll find the, uh, the, the dates and I'll put it into the group chat. Um, but I think in terms of, um, how, how it works in most places is, is it follows the national structure. So, um, there's a deadline for when your application needs to be in for, for the, for the SFP and there's a deadline for the um not FP as well. Um I can't remember if they were the same or different dates, but they are hard cut offs. And when you say say a hard cut off, that mean it, it's not. If you miss the deadline, you can just email somebody and you'll be put in. If you miss it, you've missed it and you can't um Reut in an application. So please please, please press the uh the saving submit button and don't leave it until the last minute. Um because I do know someone that did that and um didn't, didn't put their application in in time for foundation program and subsequently hasn't got a foundation job this year um because it is a hard cut off. Um Yeah, I think one thing I'd say is all of the specialized units, fan of application have information now that varies between each one. Some of them really, really specific like London, they tell you exactly what to do. Other ones are really, really vague. Um But they all do have a website, um, look through them, they'll tell you about not only the SFP but also about AC F, um which is really good because in interview, you can then progress, um you can talk about how you progress within that, which they like because they like to retain people um within in their area. And there's also always contact on web and email addresses on there if you're unsure. Like for example, this academic radiology block just email someone. Um a lot of them are happy to help um especially before your application. So yeah, um I think we'll probably wrap that up, Richard. Thank you so much for putting that link in um very useful. Um I'll probably wrap it up there. I'd say we'll just go a quick whiz round as our last um nugget of knowledge. Um So each one of the speakers can think of one small nugget of knowledge um or quick tip and then we, we, we'll bring this session to a close. OK. Thank you. My main negative knowledge is just to be really proactive because I wasn't and I really struggled because of it. I'll um I'll second Sam's point. Um I don't regret starting doing my white space questions early. I don't regret starting interview prep early. It made my A two es very smooth, it made um it made the interviews much less stressful except for Scotland. The, uh, the strange questions really threw me. But, um, you, you will never regret over preparing. There's no such thing. You, you cannot over prepare for these things. Er, you know, and if you're very set on going to a particular place, especially now with the computer allocated, um, foundation program, you know, you know, a, a lot of, uh, there's a lot at stake so I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, um, procrastinate it. You'll be very busy with the start of the final year, I'm sure. But if you can set aside a couple of hours a week to just prepare for, for, for the SFP application, I, I definitely would do so starting now, I would probably second all of what, you know, everyone said because of this whole rubbish randomization computer, whatever. It's, it's quite vital that, you know, SFP gives you a bit of a, a leeway really with it gives you a bit of stability where you're going to be applying. So I would urge you to literally go for it. Even if you don't think you're competitive enough, just go away, you might end up or you might get one. It does just have a go and prepare early. So I, exactly, I agree again for particularly for London where they assess things one by one, just put everything on a and, and don't like, I know a lot of people have specific questions about this or this just like make a priority list of like your best achievement and just put it on there because you literally have nothing to lose. And a lot of people have done this exact same thing and they've got points for it. Um So I would, that's my, probably my best advice and then again, my other thing which is um yeah. No, I've forgotten it. But uh yeah, so I would just make sure you go through all your properly one by one and try and maximize as much points as you can because they do feed into different applications in different ways and read the guidelines. Um And we check the website regularly because for London in particular, they like update documents at random points. Um And talking to that, was it speaking to other SSFP doctors is in your particular dean is probably the best way we can reach out to them on Twitter, reach out to them on linkedin and Instagram or through the university is probably the best way to just get an idea of what the experience is like. And it's a really good sort of support network. So the mentorship thing scheme would be a great another alternative as well and great way to get that support. Yeah, Jimmy, my little nugget there at the very end, it was to reach out to people that have been in the position that you're in. Um I reached out on Twitter to somebody that had done the Scotch SFP before they were kind enough to do, to offer to do a practice interview with me. And it was probably the most useful thing that I did, um, because they've done it and succeeded and they were very, very helpful. So, if you, any way that you can get in touch, I think everybody that's on the SFP hopefully is very open to being contacted and, um, to provide advice and we've been exactly where you are. Um And it's, it's a scary time because you don't know what's going to happen. But um we're all willing to help in any way that we can. Great. Thank you so much. Um Echo said on the chat, it's been very insightful and I hope it's been useful for everybody that's attended. Um I'm sure Cathy would like me to plug the feedback form. Please. Please please fill in the feedback form. Um And also um please sign up to our sessions. Um We've got a great range of sessions, um white space questions um and going through interviews, structures, clinical A two S um very hopefully will be very helpful in your preparation. Um Like Cathy says they are um every other Tuesday at seven o'clock and they'll all be done through med or so. If you sign up, you'll get the links to, to join. Um I think lots of our doctors are in there, um contact into the group, chat into the chat here. So please feel free to reach out to any of us, like we all said, I very happy to be messaged and um give help where we can. Um Thank you all once again, um I'll hand over to Cathy just to say thank you and then, and we'll see you in two weeks. Thank you so much to all of us because um thank you guys for taking the time to um talk and help us with our event. Thank you. Yeah, just to echo what NTA said, thank you all very much for making time. Um It's a very busy time for everyone settling into one. So we really appreciate you all being here. Um Our next session is on White Space questions. Um And it will be at the start of September. Usually your White Space questions are due towards the end of September or at least it was for us last year. I think it was the 25th of September for us 25th or 22nd, something like that. Um So definitely come along to that and find out what to sort of include in your white space questions. Um After that, just as an idea, I put a timeline into the chat. So that's what the deadlines will be for you guys, but usually the deadline to then rank your rotations is by mid October. So I would say also start thinking about that. Now, if you'd like to um save yourself less stress towards that time, but Yeah, thank you all for coming and for joining us and hope to see you at our future events. And thank you very much to our speakers. Um Good night. Thank you. Goodbye.