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Hello, everybody. Uh, my name's Pip. I'm one of the members of the Yorkshire Foundation Surgical Society, where going to be starting the talk in the next couple of minutes. So if you just got really exciting to talk like that for you and we'll introduce our talks in it when we get to seven o'clock. Yeah, it's good. So it's seven o'clock. Thank you so much, everyone for joining us this evening for the Yorkshire Foundation Surgical Society event this evening. We've got two fantastic speakers tonight. We've got Chloe, who's one of the NIH are academic clinical fellows in vascular surgery. We've also got Marina, who's one of the NIH are academic clinical lecturers and an S T eight in general surgery. They've got loads of experience. I'm sure we'll give a brilliant talk night. We're really grateful for them giving up there Monday evenings to come due up to talk for us. So over to Hello. So my name is Chloe. As mentioned, I'm a s t one n vascular surgery. Currently, um, I think this topic is going to be quite informal, So feel free to interrupt us Any questions And me and Marina will be happy to answer any inquiries that you have. Um, So what I'm going to talk about is basically the training pathway and how you apply for in a CF. So there we go. So in a CF basically is part of specialty training with academic component to it. Um, some of you might be coming a what you call it SFE by my year was the FDA program, which is two years. And the idea is that you built a portfolio, basically move on to an A CF. Now it's not strictly necessary to have, um, an AFP, and I know plenty of people who have gone for a normal FNF to and moved on to apply and successfully get a CF. So don't worry if you're not in the SFP right now, so a CF, it's a standard of three years. And what happens during those three years is that you are doing so 75% clinical and 25% academic. Um, just give me a second. And how it works is that in some specialties, depending on what you do is ideal form of blocks release. And so you take several months of it time or not taking a day pill, so usually you can't take on calls off, so you usually end up taking several days off and on your normal days. And then the goal is to then build up to have a good enough portfolio and have enough projects and then apply for funding for a PhD at the end of three years. And the goal is to basically come in someone to fund you and you take some time out to do a PhD and then you apply for clinical lectureship, which is what Marine is doing and so she can tell you a bit more about that later. Um, E C F all run through, which means that if you choose to not do a PhD or you can't get funding for PhD, you basically just move on to do sort of a S t four s, C five and you just run through whatever specialty that you're doing. So now I'm going to talk about the short listing process. So the this is the 2022 22 23 timeline applications open and roughly a weekend a week and a half time. So, um, October and you do it online through a real just like how you do with normal and CST or I m t applications or whatever applications that you want to do. Really? Um, so just make sure you keep, uh, we'll plan on time, depending on what specialty that you apply to and depending on which area apply to. They have different shop listing criteria. So for mine, I applied to West Yorkshire, and I did a general surgery and vascular surgery. And I can say that the common things that you want to know about their basically white box questions so you type. And during my year, there was no what limit. But previously there were, and things that we commonly look for are quite predictable. So outstanding achievement. Outside of medicine, presentations, publications, teaching, audit research experience, they're all quite predictable. Really. Number seven is a commitment and suitable to specialty. You might have to tailor it a little bit, too, depending on what area interested in and the last question usually academic goals, which I'll talk a bit about later on how you can approach a question. But usually I do sort of three piece of five p s, which are highlight later, and I do a sort of short term goals, medium term goals and long term goals. So these are the 3 to 5 p s that, um, I mentioned earlier, So you can see at the bottom there's a linger, and you can just such a three piece of five p's and basically in the academic portfolio what they want to know. Are you number one the right person for you, The right place? Do you have the right project and is it the right target group? So the patient in public involvement. So these are just a few things to highlight some key phrases to use when you're writing your application. And so once a shot listing processes done ideally, you will get an interview. Um, in my year was help online. I'm not too sure about this year, but I think it might be help online as well. Once again, um, everything can be actually found online. And so, if you type into Global appendix Appendix six um, a CF interview guidance notes. All a CF. Interviews are standardized regardless of specialty or location. Um, it's a fixed format, so there are all 30 minutes long There are six standard questions, and and then all applicants are ranked with the highest scoring applicant being offered the Post. So my year I had about four or five members interviewing me. So, for example, I got shot listed for vascular surgery and it was a competing post. So some a CSR competing. So, for example, if it's vascular competing general surgery, either one vascular surgery or one general surgery we appointed. So I had one interview from Vascular one interview from General, one interviewer from Orthopedics, which is non related. Just to make it a bit more fair, I had to lay audience and I had a quality assurance guy. I think so. The first station. It is a academics of scientific station. Um, it's basically a paper station where they try to figure out how good you are critically analyzing a paper. So, like I said, if you google that document, you were able to find all of these score sheets online, where it just shows you how they rank you, what positive stuff they're looking for and what negative stuff that you want to look out for as well. Some of the tips I would say is, you should have a basic understanding of common steps terms. So type one error type to error P value, confidence interview, stuff like that. You should be able to explain it and what it means in the context of the paper. Um, in terms of the paper, Um, usually, if it's in real life, the paper will usually about two pages long, and you have about 10 minutes to read it. Because I was online. What happened was it was a much longer paper. It was about seven pages, and they sent it to us a week before. So it just depends, you know, on where this real life or online, the length of the paper and how complex it is. So I suppose if it's online, it's a more complex paper, and they give you more time to prepare for it. So you will be able to sit down and talk about the paper with someone. Um, there are lots of ways to critically analyze the paper. You can find it on Google, you can ask around, but bear in mind that because the whole interview is only 30 minutes, so by question breakdown, how I did it was sort of allocated five minutes for each question because it won't stop you. They won't move you on. So what I did was just the introduction defined people, um critically analyzed methods. That's give a quick summer of results. Talked a bit about strength and witnesses and what the implications of my practice are so they might be. They might ask you some follow up questions for this as well, so it might be worthwhile before the interview to just go through practicing, um, analyzing some papers. So the second part of this question is why DeLay audience comes in, so you have to re explain the whole paper. But for a guy who has no medical experience at all, so he's just no medical knowledge and nothing so detail I've got for this question, which a lot of people have given me, is to find if you are given the paper before hand to find a friend or family member who is not in the medical field, and you don't talk to you about medical things and try explaining the paper to them to see how much they understand. And it's quite surprising, Like when I was in clinical practice. Sometimes I'll say stuff like, Oh, you have hypertension and patients like What's hypertension? And you go, Oh, it's high BP So it's very, very simple terms that you think they might be able to understand But they actually don't And so just bear in mind, this is a station that up until that, most people don't score well, and it's actually the station that's got the least in. And so it's one station to practice on the next question, Um, like I said Austin and ask questions you can find online. They read it out exactly as it is. Please summarize the academic achievements and personal contributions. So what you're looking for is, um, your personal contributions. So what did you contribute to to these achievements? Um, not going to read about this current criteria for you. It's right there. It's online, but it's worth just highlighting achievement in each of the things I mentioned as a degrees publication price posters, presentations worth just saying one or two things in each, rather than concentrating on one very fancy thing and then living out the others. So the third question is related to what you know about the A C F polls. So the polls, they're looking for a black screen. Is it still a black screen, or has it showed up? It's knowledge of the CF codes. Sliders up. Okay, so it might be Ahmed you that you can't see it because I think other people can see it. I'm not sure someone's able to help him or her, but I'll just keep going and try to explain as clear as I can. So the the question perfect solved question is the knowledge of the A CFO. So you want them to choose you? You need to explain why you're suitable for that post. So you need to explain why is suitable for number one? That specialty number two, the team that's working there and number three, the location. So this relates to the point I mentioned earlier about the piece. They want to know your the right person for that place. And so what I would recommend is if you're applying for a particular area, look up the research team there, Google them, see what the area of interest is, what the area of research is. Look at where they get the funding from and relate how your current projects and what you can offer to suit what they have, because you they are trying to pick some to suit them. And there's lots of people, so you can make yourself stand out. Make sure you know who's working their name. Some of the big professors, they're working their stuff like that, Um, and highlight your achievements in relating to that specialty yourself. Another fourth question. Just a very generic experience. And what's your personal experience of research? So once again, they want to know what you contributed. It's not enough to say I've been an orphan projects A, B and C. You need to explain what you've done. So designing the project, collecting data, analyzed data, writing papers, disseminating results, and they love it when you talk about how you've been involved in PPI and so patient and public involvement. One of the piece that I mentioned earlier, so they love that. And so for me, when I applied, even if I didn't have any, I just make sure to mention it as an area that I will work on all of that. I'm hoping to work on because, as you can see, it's one of the key points that they actually listed down, that they're looking for the first question, Um, I thought was a bit of a road one. And so what they're asking is, can you share some areas of medicine or research outside of the area of interest? So that can be a bit tricky. So, for example, if you apply for general surgery, you need to talk about a paper or an area of research that, ideally, is outside of surgery. Um, not I don't really have any tips of this. Really. Basically, what I did was a week before the interview. I just went apart. Matt and I looked up for some exciting new papers that's been released that people have been talking about and make sure I understand it summarized it. And then I related it back to what I was interested in. And so this is just a question that you might need to do some pre reading about. And then finally, the last question. It is more like three questions in a question. So I would probably advocate a little bit more time for you to talk in so once again, quite predictable. Just talking about challenges. How you overcome these challenges? Describe what skills you think you have, how you developed them. Um, so pretty much something that you can spend some time too, right? Um, no. I can think about in terms of this question, but, yes, my presentation. And all in all, what I can say is, I think the interviews and the shop listing it's very predictable. It's very standard. It's worth spending some time to prepare things. And you shouldn't be taken aback or surprising the interview. So I think as long as you're prepared, you're organized. Hopefully, everything should go well. And I will be taking any questions. If you've got any questions, you want to pop them in the message chat, Will Chloe, Um, Marina will ask them for about five minutes before moving onto marinas talk. So, do you know the cut off scores for the interviews? Question number one. Uh, So, question number one. Do you have to cut off scarf on the interview? Uh, no. Uh, they don't tell. They didn't tell us to score. We just got the email saying that you get to go for an interview, so I've not got the answer to that. You know, it's different. It's different. Area depends on specialty. I think it's select the top few number. So this is like the top five or the top six to go for the interview. So for my course, which was the vascular general surgery polls, six people to go for the interview. So I think it's just the number of people. Really, Uh, Zaha has a question. Any suggestions regarding identifying the right A CF program for you? Oh. Mm. So I think by now, if you're thinking of applying, you should know the specialty that you want to do. And then I think if you know the specialty you want to do, it would just be a matter of searching which areas offer that specialty and then looking up at those areas and seeing what the area of interest is and seeing what it aligns with yours. That's the only tip I've got. Really? Because there's no point going to a place and then having an interest in something that they don't even do research in. Um, it's just about like I said the right project in the right place. What was it that drew you two Yorkshire and vascular surgery. Uh, what was it doing to you? Uh, problem. I like surgery because I'm more of a hands on person, and I I appreciate it vascular surgery, because I feel like I get a chance to operate on every part of the body, which was quite interesting. It's not specialized. Um, I like that. It's very medical. There's a medical component of it, which I feel is neglected a lot of surgical specialties. So I was quite interested in that. And I chose with the options because of personal reasons, because I've got a house here, so I sort of track here. Really? But on the bottom, there is no I really liked the team here. Before I applied, I actually emailed the professor working in leads, and I met up with them, um, and her chair and I felt like they were really helpful. They were good team. They were friendly, and I liked working with them. So Yeah, I just felt like it was the right place to be, uh, two questions relating to publications from Damilola. How many papers are required for Max to get the maximum score and from farmer do you have to have publications. And is there still a chance of getting an A C s if you've got published? Yeah. So there is no maximum score for the papers. It's not like a CSC application. Um, if you as I mentioned earlier, if you look at the interview questions, they score all of your achievements as one question so all degrees, extra degrees, publications, presentations. It always falls under the same question. And I think they look more at quality than quantity. If I'm honest and then relating to the second question, yes, you can. Um, I think I am actually one of the few people that I know. I actually did not have a publication when I applied, and I've got the CF Post. But I made sure that I had something in every other aspect, and I made sure that I made it really clear that I had a paper that I was working on, and I tried to demonstrate that I knew what into knew what went into while doing a publication. So all in all, it is possible to get a CF post without publication because I am here. So that's that's good. Lupron has a question about the list of specialties associated with codes. So, for example, a CF endocrinology, immunology and geriatrics. She would like to know if it means you cover all of those irritations thinking, isn't it? So that's the competing thing that I mentioned earlier. So, for example, in that one that you mentioned, it just means that anyone who wants to apply for endocrine a CF or immunology a CF or geometric a CF you will all attend the same interview, and they will only select one person. Um, so it's like a competing post. So it's not that you cover all those rotations, but say, if there's one in immunology, there'll be no a cf in under crime, and there'll be no a CF and geometrics. Basically, the next question is, do you apply for a CF straight from F y two or as an into the S t one roll? Or is it or can you also apply S t three? I think there's different levels of entry, depending on which location, Um, and what specialty? So, for example, sorry. It's quite surgical base, because obviously we'll surgical but no surgery. That s t one entry and s e three entry. Um, but so you can basically apply at any point between ST one s t three as long as their pulse is advertised and they have the pulse, and it changes every year. So you just have to look into it, and yeah, and then the final question before you move on to the marinas. Talk is how can you maximize your points if you haven't got any experience in research? Well, that's what the marina we'll talk about, so I'll leave that to her. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time. So we really appreciate it was a brilliant and really informative talk, right? Chronic. Oh, so high. Actually, that was quite a perfect introduction to my talk. So thank you for that. I'm just going to talk a little bit about how to build the surgical, um, CV and how to maximize the points that you've been getting. Hopefully give some practical tips. Um, so essentially, you're at the point where you're starting to think about specialty training. Uh, course, surgical core, medical training. So you're at that point of your career path. So looking at what you need for surgery and you have some courses that are compulsory during the core training time. However, if you decide to do some of those courses beforehand, it was just something to talk about your interview. And it's something that may give you extra marks when you apply for your core training job. And the other thing that's really important is to make sure that you maintain a good block book, uh, in terms of your surgical experience. So, uh, in terms of the of the courses that you can find, you can go into the Royal College of Surgeons website. The B M A offers courses as well. And there are various other surgical, uh, societies that offer courses that you can find and, um, and do so, uh, I put in some slides about the scoring system for course surgical training, focusing on the academic, uh, on the academic abilities or uh, skills that you might want to have. I understand that the scoring system changes every year is probably changed from from this one, but it's just to make the point that you really need to download the scoring system and, uh, read it really, really carefully. So the point I'm trying to make with this slide is if you had a surgical, uh, taster session for three days, you will get only one mark. And if you had a surgical taster day for four days, you get three marks. So you you would automatically lose two points for for no reason, really? In terms of, uh, degrees and qualifications. Again looking at that, if you had a B s C that you finished with the first class honor, it essentially would give you the same sort of score as a PhD. So that's another thing to consider. If you're thinking about a higher degree, um, that, you know, just maximize what you can get in terms of, uh, scores without spending three years of your, uh, of your life. Obviously, if you're on the academic pathway and you want to go down the academic group, you will require to have a PhD to progress from, um, a CF, which is what Khloe is to a lecture in terms of, um award and uh, prices. Uh, in order to score the maximum score, you need to have a national a national price that will give you unless you were really, really, really good in medical school, and you are more than 15 percent of your of your year, you would need to get a national price. I mean, that's not as difficult as one might think. So if you go onto the Royal College of Surgeons of England, they have, for example, essay competitions that are open to foundation, uh, doctors or the other one. That's really good is the Royal Society of Medicine. They often have. They often offer different prices, and because not many people would know about them, um, you would stand a good chance the competition ratios, um, to get one of those awards. There's also the association of, uh, surgeons in Training Asset. Um, they have, uh, I believe a poster award in their conference, which again accounts as a national award. Um, and then you have the different associations for the specialty that you want to follow, and and also it doesn't necessarily have to be, uh, something surgical you can. If you have a special interest in medical education, you can You can try to get an award in medical education, for example, and and the other thing to be to be mindful of, uh, for the for the goalscoring is for the quality and project. Um, be a bit mindful of the of that end if you have two things that you have to fulfill to get full marks, Um, just make sure that you do both. So, for example, here you have, uh, you've completed your quality improvement project. You've led the quality improvement improvement project, but but then, if you don't actually present it, you don't get a full marks. Um, and, uh, if the work has hasn't been presented by yourself, you would lose about three marks. So those are things to like Go through, read really carefully and see how you can maximize your points when you apply for a surgical a job. So just some practical tips, like a call if you're. If you want to do an audit, just choose something simple. Because if you choose an audit that's simple, you can finish it. You can then re audit while you're in one placement. That's like three or four months, and then you get the marks for closing the audit cycle. Um, and then the other thing is to try and compromise with the rest of the members of the team. Like, for example, you don't have to be the first name on a on an abstract to present it at a conference, so you might compromise and just say you'd be the first name. But if I can present it to the conference so it's a win win situation for you and your, uh, and your colleague and watch out for the national Snapshot audit. So they're They're fairly straightforward in the sense that you input data for about two weeks or so, and then they they end up being published in in quite good journals. The only thing to be mindful of is that they might take a while until they actually get published. But you will get a publication and you would get an audit experience as well. And the other thing you could do is you could discuss with your audit sponsor whether they'll be happy for you to present the data for your hospital in a national conference. So try and maximize what you can get from, um, whatever it is that you're doing. So in terms of teaching, the other thing that is often highlighted, uh, is feedback. So for whatever teaching you have, you have to be able to demonstrate that you have form of feedback. You reflected on it, and you learn something from it. Um, so having designed a curriculum for for teaching, we give you aximum points, and each hospital they have can allocated, uh, surgical tutor so you can approach the surgical tutor and see if you can work with them to do something. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be advanced laparoscopic skills. You can do like a series of, uh, suturing skills sessions that still counts as a, um, as designing a curriculum. In most centers, especially in Yorkshire, they have simulation centers that are open to the to the trainees. Um, and then again like the other point to make is if you look at this slide, you have a post graduate certificate giving you four points. And again, a five days of training course gives you three points. So if you were to choose between the two, it might be best to do the five day course instead of the one year post graduate certificate. So So these are things that you need to go through and look at in detail before you apply just to, um maximize the amount of points you get with the least amount of effort. Because we're all we're all busy. So best to, like, maximize what you get out of, uh, spending minimal time on it. So, in terms of presentations and publications, you can see that an oral presentation and a poster publication, uh, sorry presentation at a national level. There's there's a small difference between the two. So what I would say when you go to submit an abstract for a presentation, you will often be asked which, like this, uh, would you consider an oral or a poster presentation? Just take both. Unless you're at the point where you've had so many, uh, presentations that you don't want to do anymore. Just take both, um, and and see what the outcome is, uh, conferences to aim for. If you're just starting to go to conferences, um, would be the acid Conference A s g B I. C. Is actually, um, quite a good one to start from, as well. So for publications, just be mindful that, uh, publications that you have our apartment sighted so they're not. They're in a good um, journal. And usually what they appreciate more is original research. Therefore, things like case reports or, uh even, um, systematic reviews may not count, uh, towards getting full marks because they're not considered original research. When we talked about original research, we mean by randomized control trials or retrospective cohort things like that. So be be mindful before you start a project that it will actually get you a publication in a good journal that's sided on PrandiMet. Uh, and it's the right, uh, it's the right type of study. Obviously, if you're a first author, it does. It will count more than being second or or third. And it's really important that the the journalist public excited. And, um, I would say, if you're just starting to to publish now, then there is no mention anywhere in the in the scoring sheet about the impact factor of a journal. So if you are just starting now, what you need to do is as close that prove that you have a basic understanding of how research works and how academic writing works. So, um, try to find a journal with, um, a good but not very high impact factor I mean the the journals that I had a good experience with our like, Scottish medical journal, the the, uh of the Royal College of Surgeons or the Irish Journal of Medical Sciences. They have a decent, um, impact factor, but they're not. They may not be as competitive as as other ones. And the other thing to look at is again the snapshot audits and collaborative authorship. Um, but again we've talked about It is it's rather easy to get, And, uh, but you have to be a bit mindful to make sure that you are included as a sizable offer before you start working on a collaborative project. Otherwise, you won't get any extra points for that in your application. Uh, the the point of trying to make is to try and complete the cycles of, uh, audit if you can't get publications presentations. But be be smart about getting the most marks that you possibly can. Um, for the time that you spent doing several academic things and also don't forget that it is a it's a clinical. It's a hands on specialty, so try to try to be involved in theater as much as you can if you have any questions I'm happy to take from now. That was brilliant. Thank you so much that I'm really informative and helpful of how to start targeting your surgical portfolio and academic portfolio in general. Just waiting to see if anybody's got any. Can I add a point really quickly? I can't remember if I mentioned it, but after you get the the A CF applications, the round starts before your I m t c e s t one of the applications. After you apply for a CF. Make sure you apply for the, uh, what you call it, like the specialty they are interested in. That relates to the CF. Because if you get the A CF, you need to pass, you need to benchmark your specialty interview. You need to pass the interview. If you don't pass your specialty interview, you're a CF. Post gets revoked, so you need to make sure you apply. You need to make sure you pass it regardless of what specialty Here in surgery, medical a. CCS, whatever. So, essentially, you have to kind of benchmark for the clinical. Yeah, the clinical bit. That's really helpful to know, because I imagine lot of people have just applied for in a CF and then had slight issues when they found that they hadn't applied competitively. Um, has if anybody's got any questions, please just put them on the chat and also make sure you fill out our feedback form. So which will be helpful so we can find out what would be useful sessions for after I've rested in the future. You also get an immediate certificate for filling out the feedback form Is a CF at Holland York well supported as a hymns graduate? I think so. But, you know, it may not be the most objective. I think are a CSR are very happy. Um, and we've had a lot of success in getting NIH are funding. So yeah, I think it's, um I think it's a brilliant opportunity if you'd like to consider and go for it. And um, yeah, if you want to contact me directly with you through to the right people, The next question is, can I MGs apply for a CF International Medical Graduates National? Yes. So I think as long as you're currently training in England, isn't it? Yeah, it's a training coming in England and you passed your CF interview and you get any passive clinical, then? Yeah, you can You can apply. Yeah, I didn't do I didn't do medical school in England, so Yeah, I did, uh, a CF before my ACL, so, yeah, you can definitely apply. Can you apply for an academic route during specialty training if you didn't do a CF do a portrait? Yeah, you can. So my current a cf, she's She says t three in general surgery. Um, it's just when you have an s t three and three point, it just gives you a little bit less time to do all the work that you need to do to get external funding for your PhD. That's the only thing to be mindful of. But, yeah, it's still possible to apply this t three. Do you think it's possible to have a academic approach to survive without being in a CF? Yes, I do. Of course. Um, so, yeah. I mean, all the things that I've that I've mentioned can easily apply to a non academic doctor and an academic doctor. You still have to have their their are requirement thing to two papers. Uh, apartment sided, so I mean, there's no way in the training scheme they can escape academia, So, yeah. Has anyone else got any more questions? One minute questions on and then we'll bank Marina close giving up on Monday nights. We're not giving you the whole of our Monday night. Yeah, Brilliant. Okay, In that case, we'll wrap up. Thank you so much. Everybody for attending. I hope you found it interesting and informative, and we'll help you with your applications. Uh, Marina, Thank you again. Thanks for having us. Thanks. Bye bye.