Insights into ST3 General Surgery Training



This medical on-demand teaching session provides an insight into General Surgery Training and how to build a portfolio. Our speaker, Mr Ola Adepoju will give a clear explanation on the eligibility criteria, such as having a GMC registration and having passed the MRCS exam. He will discuss the application process, share his personal experience and tips and also touch on the interview process. This session is specifically relevant to medical professionals who want to pursue a career in General Surgery and will be beneficial to those looking to compete in an increasingly competitive area.
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Learning objectives

Learning Objectives: 1. Identify the eligibility criteria for applying for ST3 general surgery. 2. Explain the process of building an ST3 general surgery portfolio. 3. Comprehend the importance of leadership and mentorship within the University setting when preparing for ST3 general surgery. 4. Describe the competitive nature of applying for ST3 general surgery. 5. Outline the interview process for ST3 general surgery.
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Computer generated transcript

The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

Hello? Can everyone hear me? Hello? Can everyone hear me, please, In the kids in the chart box, if you can hear me. Okay. And that's fine. I think I'm having some issues with my camera, but, um, if you can hear me very quickly, we'll start very soon. Yes. Uh huh. Uh huh. Okay. Um, thank you, everyone. Good evening. Um, today we are going to be taking this session on the we're going to be taking this session of the insight into ST three general surgery training. Uh, Speaker Ezola like, oh, addict Buju Mr. Liquid It Buju, um did his primary medical degree m B Bs in Nigeria and started his general surgeon residency in Nigeria before he moved to the UK when he got into the h S T program. So he's going to be speaking to us today. Um, the whole idea is just to let people know how to get into the general surgery training, and also, we are going to be hearing his own personal experience and insights. So, um, I'll be moving. I'm on two Mr Liquid Depo due in shortly, please. Let's give him a moment. He's having some difficulty sharing the screen ball. Our range for that as soon as possible. Can everybody hear me? Okay, great. You can make up crap on Mhm. You Can you Can you hear me? Sheena, can we continue? Yes, Yes, please you. Once you show your stream, the flow is onto you. Come, please, go ahead. Okay. Good evening, everybody. I want to assume everybody can hear me. I think I saw a response about that just a second ago. Um, sorry for the hiccups. Thankfully, we'll be able to troubleshoot. Now. My name is Allah, and, uh, topic this evening is to look at, uh, the general study training. How do we beat portfolio? And we will have a look at the application process and the interview. I think the bulk of our discussion will be around how to build portfolio because I think the most important thing, first of all, is for you to actually get an interview slot. And for many of us who are mgs, I think the main challenge a lot of people face is how to put the people work together because building portfolio is more like a game of numbers. Like many of us in already So, uh, we'll dedicate the majority of the presentation to getting to understand how to be portfolio, how I did mine. I will also try to talk about the things I know that works and the things that don't work. I will. Well, a few things people have talked about that I'm aware of. Also, I will share my experience on that. And the application process is not very difficult. But you need to understand some tips and we'll run through that. I will just touch on the interview when people get to the stage of interview. I'm happy to come back again for us to talk through that. Okay, so I have no disclosures. Um, I will also say that the opinions I'm expressing this presentation are not, uh, those of the N h s or NHS education for Scotland. They're mine. And please feel free to make verifications as necessary. So let's start by how many Look at this small table. Just to be sure that you can still hear me. Could I just have a response? You can make a Am I still audible, or anybody who is there who cannot respond? Yes, You're still very much audible. Perfect. So I will carry on without stopping. Okay, Um, so if you look at this table, uh, it just gives you a summary of the numbers of posts for general surgery, s t three. It has been a believer in the last 2 to 3 years. So this year, there were 1 45 posts and you can see the distribution across the foreign nations, The only focused in Northern Ireland, Wales, respectively. And of course, the overwhelming majority are in New England. And I happened to be one of the 24 s d three's in Scotland for this year. Uh, compared to two years ago, there were 1 18 posts and in 2021 they were 1 36 posts. So put that in perspective. There were 607 applicants to 1 36 posts in 2021 so the competition ratio was 4.46. Um, I am not aware of any official figures for this year just yet in terms of competition ratio, but what I heard is that about there were about seven and 30 applicants. So 7 30 applicants, 1 45 spots that gives a compression ratio of about five. So that that tells you, um, you know, when five people apply, one person gets it and four people don't. So you can put that in perspective. Uh, for for example, go messy. Three. This year, there were 38 posts and only 30 applicants. So you know, there are some specialties where there are more jobs than applicants, but that doesn't seem to happen for general surgery, and almost always, you feel they feel all the posts. So we are. Of course, we know there are some other specialties that are a lot more competitive. A physical is around 63. Uh, there were only two posts this year, and they were 47 applications. So imagine that about 23 competition ratio. So keep that in mind as we go along so that you understand why we're doing what we're doing. And we were paying attention to those things that will be emphasizing. Um well, I thought it was important to just mention this for you. To be eligible to apply for ST three general surgery, you need to be a doctor, obviously. And you need to have GMC registration or you should be able to have your GMC registration by the time you're starting the job. So if you're not GMC registered now, that is not a reason for you not to apply. You can apply, but you need to understand that you need to be GMC registered by the time it is you need to be GMC registered by the time you're starting your job. Uh, most post start in October, and but some started in August like mine started in August. Uh, based on the region or the January, uh, where you have got a job. There are a few posts that are also going to start in February 2023 out of this set of round. But the majority of the post is starting either August October, so you need to target that by the time you're starting in August, October next year, you should be James. The registered, uh, you also need to have passed the MRCS by the exam before the August start date. So that means if there are three diets of part be next year, you need to have passed the second one, which is usually in May or June or sometimes July. So if the first day it happens to be around February March, the second one around June or July, the third one around September October, you need to pass the second one your leader will specify, but almost always, you need to pass the second one in the middle of the year for you to be able to start by August. So if you're not, um, if you have not completed the MRCS just yet, it's not a reason for you not to apply. Uh, you need to have done your foundation program. That's your house job if you're coming from Nigeria, for instance, or from other countries where you do single year foundation program and you need to have done the core training competencies. So that means, uh, for those of us who are coming from abroad that have been done. Coltrane. Maybe you've done a bit of surgical training back in your country. You need to have the competencies of a city one city, two in the UK, uh, city, one by the time you're applying and city by the time you're starting so but generally most people coming from abroad and we have done a bit of surgical training would have the the capacity and the competencies of the city. One city, too. In that instance, because you haven't done a proper core training in the UK, you need to have your, uh, certificate of readiness for entry into higher specialty training signed off by a consultant. Uh, usually, if you work the concern of at least three months in the UK, they'll be happy to sign it for you if you have good records with them. Um, you also need to have completed the general surgeon requirements for the course surgical training curriculum if you've gone through a surgical training. But if you're coming from abroad, you haven't on core training. But you think you can jump straight into HST. You need to have done at least 12 months of general surgery. That does not include the time you spend in general surgery as a House officer. So if you spend three months in surgery as a house officer, that doesn't count. You need to have at least 12 months of post foundation general surgery experience for you to be eligible to apply for ST three general surgery, and this is more like a desirable criteria rather than something definitive. If you've done more than six years in general, some of your vascular surgery you're not eligible to apply for the three anymore because you are in court, over qualified. So you will meet people who are consultants back in their countries. You want to come into the cave and start S t three. Any of them are overqualified because you spend more than 72 months. So you need to keep that in mind. Uh, all of these eligibility criteria on this page. So if you scandal cured, uh, you should be able to get the pdf document that gives you all of this eligibility criteria. Um, this is I'm going to keep this on for another four or five seconds, just in case anybody wants to scan that and you can get a pdf straight away. Okay, I'll move on. And if we need to come back to this, we can always do so. Um, like I said, this presentation is in three parts. We'll talk about the portfolio, talk about the application process, and I will take a short period of time to also talk about the interview. So, uh, will you will allow me to just use my own experience to talk you through how to build the portfolio, because it will be relatable to you. I'm Nigerian myself, like many of you are. I know there are no Nigerians with us as well. But you can relieve that your own system. I did my M B bs in Nigeria did junior surgical residency in Nigeria, and I skipped core training and I jumped into H S t. So, uh, try to interpret that based on your own experience, Um, I would mention a few things, uh, that are relevant. Um, I did my undergraduate University of the body between 2006 and 2012 Graduated in 2013 January. Um, obviously was the student village where I belong to as a student. That was important because it gave me my very first platform for leadership. And, you know, all the people I met, uh, you know, so many people I met became mentors. And, you know, they connect are still useful for meeting now, and, of course, gave me a platform to be able to understand a lot of things deeper than you know, what appears physically to be to be, to be honest with you, farm PSA is separation of African American students associations. I happened to be the board secretary of the headquarters board in my fifth year in medical school, and that gave me the opportunity to attend my first international scientific conference and to write my first paper, which also became useful for application. I will get to that also, uh, inside the medical association and seek a smart club where the platform for leadership I had which, uh, were important for my point scoring ultimately. So I did. I graduated in 2013, like I said, and I did house job between 2013 and 2014. Um, after my house job, I said Indiana State. And during my service, it happened to manage an HIV project sponsored by CBC and characters Nigeria. Uh, for about a year and in 2015, I went to Ghana for for a couple of weeks for leadership training came back and the community community and internship and, um, I started alternating in 2017, and in October 2020 I did my part one exams, after which I left for the UK um, I started as a as an s h o. Um, What is an institute for about 10 11 months, maybe. And then I took a register job. Uh, so in my first eight months thereabout in the UK, I wrote my MRCS pattern and part to a party or part B as you would like. I did a PG set in clinical research. An avid, um I had a couple of publications back from Nigeria, and by the time I came to the UK, I start if you were still on the going peer review, some of which came through right about the time I was applying, which is also useful. I scored 0.4. I had a couple of national and international presentations also before I came and I had a few more. After I go here, we'll talk about this also in detail later when we get there. Um, I didn't do any updates back in Nigeria, which I imagine that would be the same situation for most of us because we probably don't have a structured, uh, arrangements for performing audits. But I managed to do six audits within a year because it only took me a year. Only had a year to build my portfolio when I got here. I go again in November, 2020 and I applied in November last year, and I got in this year, so I just one year I was able to do six audits. Um, I completely teaching program for four months, which I scored 40.4. And because of the leadership experience I've had before, uh, which I will highlight, Uh, some point. I got the maximum point for leadership as well. So let's break this down a little bit. Let's look at the score. Shit. All right, so looking at your score sheet, um, now, this first question I needed to pay for pay attention to a few things in this slide. Uh, so it says by the end of July 2020 to buy the completion. Of course. Three years. If this is later, how many months will you have spent in total in any job in medicine? Post foundation. Okay, so this includes clinical and non clinical jobs in any specialty. So think about when you graduated. Okay? So, for instance, I graduated in 2013. Okay, uh, post foundation means you don't count house job with it. So, um, after house job, you start to count how many years you spend in any job in medicine? Post Foundation. I told you about the fact that I did, uh, Project management, Indiana State, uh, during my HIV project manager in Business Day during my service year. So I didn't count that as a job in medicine because I did majority of project management rather than working as a doctor. During my service, you been a state was known for, uh, HIV as HIV endemic area. As at the time I served. I think the figures are better now. So I had a privilege, and I documented that as project management rather than a job in clinical medicine. Okay. And of course, um, I went to Ghana for a couple of for a couple of weeks, came back and did internship with an NGO in a bottle. And then I did community service. I did a project in the village, uh, actually local government. So all of those spirits, I raised them from my experience as a doctor in clinical medicine or in non clinical medicine. I just documented everything else. Uh, that one project management, the leadership experience and all of that. But all the time I worked as a doctor, I put everything together. And ultimately that brought me to this domain, which is 52 to 63 months. I think everything came to 61 months or so. That's a little over five years in total. So now this number is not a good number, Okay? Because whatever you score here with them become the dividing factor for everything else. You will get eventually. So if your number is high, it is not good for you. If you score one, Kudos to you. If you scored two, that's okay. If you scored three, well, you're almost there. If you score for like I did, that's not the best. But of course I scored four and I still gotten, so if you got if you score for that's my problem. And I have friends who scored five who also gotten as well. So if you score five, it's It's not, uh it doesn't mean you can't get in, but it just shows that you need to work a bit harder to, uh, to get, uh, the points you need, because if you scored 20 points, divided by four for me, they're divided by four. So I get five. So someone that had divided factor of one needs to do five things to to score five point someone that has divided factors. Five needs to do 25 things to score five points, if you understand what I mean. So you will get a more, uh, in more detail, uh, when we get there. So this is the next one experience in general surgery by the end of July 2022. So if you're interpreting this, you'll be interpreting this as by the end of July 2023. So when you're doing your own calculation, that is what you do. I'm using the one, uh, I used to apply, uh, because the one for next has not been released. So you will see by the end of July 2023. How many months were you have spent in total in general surgery or vascular surgery in an imposed foundation job in any country? Okay, so for me personally, I did nine months of general surgeon back in Nigeria rotated through three subspecialties of general surgery, particular very G eye surgery and surgical oncology. So that came to nine months. And by the time I was applying, I was almost one year into the UK in general studies. So 19 months plus 12 months, that's 21. So counting it's prospectively till July. Um, everything brought me to excuse me. Uh, it brought me to this point. Okay, so I scored the maximum for that. So that was the best point I could score in this domain. But the implication of that is, if I didn't get in this year, okay? By next year, I crossed over 30 months, and I will then end up scoring for so I lose more points because I spent more time in general study. So the more time I spent the negative it is. So by the time you spend five years in general study, your point will be one in this domain. So the implication of that is, if you spend 72 months and even if you even if you end up applying, even though you think you feel you're eligible, this is where you will have issues. Because you're dividing factor will be five. Ultimately, because you're going to spend six years already in general to be alone, letting the other jobs. And you will score just one point here so your scores will be low. Um, so the more experience you have, it's like it's like a like a dumb, bell shaped curve. So if you keep having more experience, you get more points. Once you get to the peak, just crashes precipitously. So it's It's not the best case scenario if you spend too much time. So expressing other specialties also count for you. Uh, if you've done at least four months in t e n o plastic surgeon neurosurgery E N T e C T S u A N D I T. Or pediatric surgery or zoology, you get more points. Given that I did general residents in Nigeria, I spent six months in, um plastics every six months in neurology and six months and a and a part of my rotations for part one. So, you know, imagine already got, uh, all the necessary points to score two extra points for that. Um, let me just mention that the way to collect evidence for this, okay, is if you have, for those of you are written part one before leaving, uh, Nigeria. Or before leaving your contract written, uh, membership exam of your college. You will have what we call a certificate of training C O t. Which is duly signed and stamped. You can use that. The other thing you can do is to get a letter from the head of department of your department to specify the dates that you did. Those rotations let them stamp and sign a letter on letterhead. And you can use that because that's what I used. And there was no question about it. Okay, um, they also look at the procedures you've performed. But interestingly, the only one we're interested in is appendicectomy. So if you've done a lot a lot of laparotomy, the problem will pay attention to that because you'll be taught out to the bottom is all over again. Uh, but they sort of feel appendicectomy is more like the most basic of surgical operations or surgical treatments performed. So if you have done tell appendicectomy is, you get two points. If you've done between 25 39 you get three points and between 40 and 100 you get four points. Um, in my log book for Part one. I think I had about 35 Open up Meniscectomy. And within the one year that I was here, you know, working at the channel. When I became a register, I think I had about 18 arthroscopic meniscectomy They haven't done a single open up any second since I've been in the UK. So tell the laproscopic So I had 18 of that. And then I added that to the 35 that I brought from my log book, which has been duly signed and stamped as well. And I merged everything together. I got it, um, validated by consultant, signed and stamped. And, um, it came to I think it ended up being 43 or something like that in a log book. So I got this point. So the way to show evidence for that again Because if you can provide evidence, you haven't done it. Okay, uh, if you're coming from, I imagine majority of people coming from Nigeria You have your log book with you. It has been signed and stamped. If you're writing part one, you know, you will have submitted it, and you have been returned to you so all the pages are signed. Um, it would be good for you to have your log book with you. And, of course, when you come in here, you know, subscribe to log book, and then you can log everything on there. It becomes verifiable. Then you can print out the consolidation sheets. It's very easy to generate. And then you can give that a consultant to sign, uh, for you. And then you can upload that when the time comes for you to show evidence, so that wouldn't be a problem. Uh, at all. If you've done more than 100 of the septum is the imagine you're to experience. You're not trainable anymore. So you should explore alternative pathways to be in a consultant like the Caesar pathway other than going through training all over again. Okay, um, so please pay attention to that. Publication's is another important thing. I'm sure people have talked about this, uh, from endlessly. Um, I heart first or four papers. Unfortunately for me, I published them in journals. There were no indexed an apartment because if they're not index compartment, you can generate a p. M I D. And they will not recommend with that paper and the other one that was published in Apartment Indexed journal was a case report that was first author. So ultimately, I lost all the points for this domain, so I didn't get any point for this. So if you have any first author paper published in a permit Permit Index Journal, that's Grant. You get two points for each first off the paper with public I d. Okay. And it doesn't matter whether it is in whether it's about psychiatry or about, you know, o n G. So far, it is probably indexed energy. It's your publication. You get points for it. It doesn't have to be for general surgery. Uh, so the way to show evidence is you have the first page of the paper with the P M. I. D. Submit that with the evidence is you can easily verify that all you need to just put the P M. I. D an appointment and then to bring the paper out. Um, the other one and the other thing I need you to take a pay attention to is there are some things that they would say at the time of you starting the job and there are a few things that would be documented at the time of application. Okay, there's some things you can score points for prospective Li, even though you haven't done them like you can say you will do MRCs before you start a job and they will take you for you from you. But at any time you're applying, something's have to have been done. So all these sort of publications are things you must show evidence for at the time you're applying. So you can say I'll publish four papers before I start the job and score points for them. It doesn't work that way. So, uh, publications is one of those things where you must show evidence of having completed them at the time you're applying. So if you look at that, it says at the time of application again, um, p m I d is extremely important here. I mean, it's it's the only thing you need, basically. All right, Um, the next one will be presentations, and that has to be your number of presentations at the time of application as well. And this presentation has to be since you graduated as a doctor. All right. So you you you can't get points for presentations you made as a medical student. So if you presented your final project your final year, your international conference, you may not be able to score points for that since since graduation as a doctor. So you have to pay attention to that. So national and international presentations will score your points. Please note you don't score points for postal presentations. You may do if you're planning for CST, but for hs D, you don't. So it has to be put you on presentation. So if your certificate for presentation does not specify that was an oral presentation podium presentation. They won't give you the point. So a circulating your evidence, please check and make sure that certificate you have specifies that it pulled on presentation on oral presentation. Uh, if you'd like, uh, if you also have the book of abstract, you can use that in place of, uh, certificate. If it's not available. Okay. Again at the time of application, how many audits have you performed? Okay, um, if you've done a single cycle, you get one point. If you've done two cycles, you get two points Okay, so if you're able to put the loop, it's better for you. Get points for that. Um, I did six single cycle audits and okay, because I had a very short, um, time to put everything together. So and I got point all the six. I did okay at the time of application. So if you will finish your masters before the job starts, they will not give you points for that. If you're doing a masters and you want to score points for, you need to have completed by the time you're applying, okay? And this degree has to be examined by thesis or this attention. So all the masters you get by just an exam does not count, and integrity degrees do not count. So, masters, PhD, we get the point that we can see here. All right, our leadership management. You know, this is, uh Well, I feel this is a bit straightforward, but if you have not been involved with leadership, you don't get any point here as well, because you need to show evidence. Um uh, in addition to the leadership experience I've talked about earlier, I sit on the board of to National or international organizations in Nigeria. And I mean, these organizations with very, um, extensive impact. And, um, they are making a lot a lot of, um, a lot of information available about them. So you got website and everything. So it was easy for me to, you know, so many letters from, you know, letters board member of those organizations, and so you can attach their email. Uh, website address is for for them to be verified. So you can imagine it was easy to get two points for that. So you need to think deep which management and leadership role you have at the moment all you've had, uh, since graduation. Like if you've been a leader in your GERD or you've been chief resident or something like that. So you need to just package out to get evidence for whatever it is you've done. Or if you've been looking organizing committee chairman for a national conference somewhere or not something like that. These are things you can get, uh, point forward. Um, formal qualification in teaching. Well, personally, I did a PG said, but my PG said is not in clinic is not in medical education. My PG sets in clinical research because that's something I'm interested in. So I did not score 0.4 PG said because my PG said is not in medical education. So what? I did the train, the train hours, which is just a two day program and you that cost you 400 lbs, I think 400. And if you book with another person 3 60 lbs, So you have the certificate, which you can show us evidence for that. So I got one point in this domain. Now, this is where we need to do a little bit of mathematics. And if you are planning to apply this year or next year, um, I think you should do these calculations with me. So do you understand how it works? All right, so five a is, uh, first author. Papers five b is second or third papers. Six is presentation seven with the audit. Okay, Now, I mentioned earlier that there is a magic number in which is not a good number, if you ask me. Um, so let's take somebody who's deciding Factor is five. All right, now on this column you can see the I don't know if you can see Micah. So on this column, the last column to the right, you can see the maximum score you can get in each of these domains. Okay, So for publications, the maximum score you can get it get there is eight. So that means if you're dividing factor is five. So if you figure it out and you realize that you spend at least 63 months post foundation in any job in medicine, whether clinical or non clinical, you know you're dividing factor will end up being five. So for you to score eight in this domain, you need to multiply five, which is a divided factor by eight. Last 40. Okay, so for you to get eight, that means you need to score 40 points in this domain because they will divide everything by by five. Which is you're dividing factor. If you're dividing, factor is three. You need to get 24 points in that domain. Okay? That's what it means. Um, if anybody is not clear, please, uh, you can drop a message in the chat. I can. I can keep track of that. Great. I have access to the chart. So if anybody is not clear about anything. You want me to repeat anything? Please just leave a message in the chart, and I can't keep track of that. Thank you. Okay. Um so, like I was saying hypothetically, somebody is deciding Factor is five. So that person needs to score 40 points under five year and five be so and to score 40 points to get it marks. It means the person either needs to do 21st off the papers, because each first other paper scores you two points, you need to score 40. So you need to have 21st, other papers or 40 non first author papers, all index compartment. And if you want to make a mix of that, you can do a bit of permutation to calculate what that is. So you can imagine some of us don't even have five papers, but you have to get 40 to get the maximum mark in this domain. Interestingly, somebody who's divided factor is one only needs four first. First offer papers to score the eight points. But you need 40. You need 20 if you understand what I mean. So you see the difference. So the longer you spend they're expected to have done more, and they demand more from you to score the same point as someone who hasn't spent so much time. The same thing to presentation on the maximum you can score is two. So if you're dividing factor is five. You need to have made 10 presentations to score two points, whereas somebody who's divided factors one only need to make to presentations to score two points. So you need to start thinking if you're applying at dividing factors. Five. How do I get 10 presentations? Ask the question for you and the same thing with audits. If you're dividing Factor is five. You need to do 20 or dates to score four. If you're dividing factors. One. You only need four dates. Interestingly, if you're trained in this system, okay? And you your urine core training, for instance. I have, um, two medical students. Uh, you have five medical students came up to me on Thursday and said, Oh, we are thinking of doing a day is fine. Come up with the topic and let me know what you require. And I'm happy to support you, you know? So imagine the medical students are not it as a medical student in F one, it does one in F two. It does one in CT one. It does one that's four. So if somebody went straight from F one to F two from F 22 C T. One from City 12 CT to that person only needs forward. It's to get the maximum point here but you because of the all the time you spent abroad and all the time you spend post graduation of Post Foundation, you are now five points down the line. You know the five point dividing factor down the line. You need 20 audits and coming over here starting a full time job. Chasing audits, chasing presentations. Trying to write your exams is not easy, trust me, but it's doable, you know. Very, very doable. But it's it's a lot of work. So this should make you to start thinking of how you will peace all this together. So we have a we have a we have, uh, we have an example that we've done in the table below, which is what I have explained, Uh, in the last couple of minutes, Um, if there is no clear to anybody. Please, just drop the message in the chat, and I can go through things again, but I assume that all clear. Now, what tips do I have to give you? Um, about this sort of portfolio. An application process. First of all, you need to start early. I'm sure from what I've explained now you need to start early. If you haven't started now and you want to apply this year, you're running a bit too late. You need to hit the ground running to start putting things together because there's a lot of work you need to do, so you need to start early. And if you are one person who, uh, it's not applying this year, you're thinking about next year. You've got ample time, but trust me, you don't have much time before you know it, it's going to be December is going to be January, and then just application is looking in the face in November. So all the people you you need to put together, you need to start very early, right, so you can get them sorted on time, especially if you have to contact people. Uh, contact previous hospitals. Previously, your previous consultant and all of the previous places where you've worked, you need to start getting those things ready. I mean, I had to get a letter from the hospital where I work in mental state to say Okay, this was the, You know, the nature of the job I did was project manager HIV project management. I did. And not a job as a job that will, uh, make me look at that as a job in medicine. You know? So well, this is a suggestion from me. Like I said, what? From answer to question. This is what I did. So I sat down as soon as I got here 2020 I sat down. Interestingly, the workbook I used back then I still have it right in front of me. You know, all the rubbish I scribbled. Then I asked the S t three in my hospital. Then I asked, I asked her I said what was the cutoff point for portfolio marks for them, too? Short list people for interviews. And she told me 32 that, you know, she told me 34 to 35 for the asset, you know. So I felt okay 34 to 35 I said that immediately. I looked at everything I have. I scared myself based on what I had at that time, and I wrote the mark down. I see how it in my book here. I wrote a mark down and I said, Okay, how do I get to 34? 35 in the next one year? So I look at these things I could not do. I could not do a PhD in one year, so I crossed that off the list. I looked at, um, so I crossed that domain eight completely from my list. So I looked at Appendicectomy. So that was when I realized I needed to do social number of appendicectomy before the application time. So if you see me coming to the hospital on weekends when I was not on call, sometimes I'll be on call on Friday or Friday night, sometimes Friday night, Saturday morning and I will admit a patient Well, I could have anxiety that needs to go to theater Our books the patient have consented the patient, but usually we don't do, uh, acceptable over night, except the patient is unwell. So you just stay up for the morning. So patient is already to go in the morning, and that's the golden patient they will send for. So I just tell the consultants I'm happy to stay back and do this case so and, you know, if you have a supportive departments, you have colleagues who are supporting. They say, Fine, let's let's let's go So the consultants would be happy to say Oh, you're committing extra because they knew what I was targeting. So I would stay back for an hour or two and do their appendicectomy before going home. So because I knew I needed to get at least because I had 35 in my log book. I need to do at least 15 to 16 or above that before I could get a maximum point. So I did that, and I committed myself to it. And of course it was. It was more difficult when I was when I was, uh, an essay, too. But when I became a register, I was more straight for because I have dedicated a theater time. I had to do the appendicectomy myself, really, sometimes to be consulted with another registrar and things like that. So if you understand what I mean work from answer to question already knew what I needed and I knew what to do to get what I needed. So you sit down, do all the mathematics after it is a game of numbers, work out what you need to do and how to do them. Work out what you can achieve and what you cannot achieve. I knew I couldn't achieve a PhD. I couldn't do an M s in one year. Part time I'm doing, I'm doing an MST now, But I did not score points for the MSG I'm doing now at that time. So, um, figure out what you need to do and how many things you need to do. I wrote that I need to do the 21st sort of papers. That was impossible. But I tell you what we call the same point for doing an audit and for doing a publication. It's called the same point for doing a publication and for doing a presentation. Okay, so you can start and finish and audit within a week or two weeks, depending on if you have all the resources you need. You have the supportive. You have supportive colleagues. You have the, uh you have the audit team who are responding to the e mails on time. You have the data you need and everything else. You can finish an audit within two weeks. You know, even even if it is more than that, you don't have so much of putting on you. So I would not. I did not commit myself to writing permit index papers within a year. I just stuck to the ones I already sent out to journals. They were under peer review. And those are the ones that came through that I added to the ones I already published by focused on doing audits. And I did a few presentations which was well worked for me. I also looked at former leadership. I had already had that experience only needed to get everything. So I put all of those together qualification in teaching. I could not start and finish a PG 13 1 year. So interestingly, the RPG said you can do in six months. You can do, um, a university of work in six months about 3007 and 50. So if you plan to apply next year. You can start this September thereabouts. Starting one now. So if you do that, you will get you by April. The about or I meet 2023. You'll be done. And you can get that as evidence for your application next year. Uh, so I wasn't going to I was already paying so much for the one I was doing all that. So I wasn't ready to do another PG set combined with exams combined with, you know, audit combined with full time job. It was practically impossible. So I deleted that of my list. So, um, work from answer the question, Sit down. See how you're going to get all these points and work out what you need to do to achieve those things. That is the way to go. That is what I did. Um, and that's what I That's what I would I would suggest you to do. Uh, you need to position yourself properly. I mean, you can interpret that in many ways. What? What I mean by this is get yourself in a suitable environment. You know, I remember when I was applying in November last year, I was in a department. I was very supportive. Um, I had trainers who, you know, right from when I joined department. Already told them what I was planning to do. So they knew all my moves were focused towards getting an X t three number. So if I say, um, can I work on this project and do this presentation? They know I'm doing that for that purpose. So they were ready to support me. So if I say Oh, I need to do this appendicectomy. I'm happy to dedicate a few hours to come and do this. I'm doing it because of the particular target. So by September, October, I got another job, which was better. The pain was better. Everything else was better. It was a registered job in another hospital, in the same trust. And then I I was going to leave. And then I sat down and I thought about it, and I said, Look, the witnesses suddenly say, Stay in this department throughout the bread of the application because all the paperwork you need all the you know, all the support you will need. You will get it here. So I stayed there. I stayed there with the job throughout the process of application. And I left eventually in April, you know, after the whole process was over. So if you find yourself in the midst of the good people in a supportive environment, stay there because we need that support. If it works for you, If you don't, you may need to find a better environment, maximize opportunities around you. You know, it was it was recently, You know, when I had a bit more exposure, um, that I realized that I I missed a lot of opportunities around me. You know, recently, enemy or your states had the, uh, week and you had a session for, um, what's it called? Scientific conference. You know, these. These are things that people don't send very superb abstracts for. You know, you can just sit down with your consult and some of the things to present as grand rounds. For instance, the U C h uh, those of you working, you said, you know, we do some really fantastic work for grand rounds. Sometimes we treat case notes, very solid work we put together sometimes for grand round. And that's all they do. Just presenting the ground round that it. Some of those things will be accepted for podium presentation. Some of these small gatherings, you know, scientific conference is well, I mean, the competition is not very high. They're not looking for people that had that has more 92,000 subjects in the in the series know even if just 50 50 patients you surveyed and present in ground ground in a very, very interesting topic, you will accept it. And then you you do an oral presentation, you get a certificate for that enemy, or your state will invite everybody across the country. That's a national presentation. You get certificate for that and you're not leaving. Use it. You'll do your presentation there. That's just a typical example. I'm sure all the hospitals to have things like that. The orthopedic department, they use it recently. I don't know if the conference has held yet. They have these lymph reconstruction, um, conference, uh, state by U C H. And I know you see those quite a good number of lymph reconstructions. So, you know, since they started, I know residents can come together with cancer and say, Let's do an audit of pain site infection or osteomyelitis and people who have a liter of compared to L R s. You know things like that and you just submit it to the conference. It's just them among them. But a national thing. It's national addition of limb reconstruction soldiers or something like that. I'm sure they're probably no more than 100 Who are soldiers who doing reconstructions. Well, that's just my assumption. So it's a small gathering you present. It will be well supported by a consultant. You will get a national presentation out of that and it doesn't take you anything. There are things you've done for grand round, so there are so many of those opportunities that personally I missed because I didn't know. I'm saying that to those of you who still have those opportunities around you, you need to maximize them. My first national presentation was not conference that U C h. Who stayed in 2017 or 2018 or 2019. I can't remember now, and I just I mean, I just presented the people there, and I still score points for it in this application. You know, um, even the one I had to fly to Abuja to present at the WCS conference. Uh, in 2020 You know, it was the same point I scored for the first one I got for that one as well. Even though I booked flight booked hotel paid for the conference and everything. So those opportunities are there, you only need to maximize them. He's got the evidence that you're doing yourself a lot of this fever if you don't collect evidence because whatever you say you've done that, there's no evidence for you will not score points for it. So put your operations in your log book, get certificates for everything you do get letters when there are no certificate letters endorsed by the appropriate people where their consultant or whatever it is, get those things and put them together. You know, extremely important. Um, I mean, I'm doing this presentation now. I'm not I'm not desperate for certificates for national presentations or anything like that anymore. But I will ask for certificate for this presentation, you know, because you just keep those things in your in your portfolio. You don't know where you're going to need them, even if you don't need them For any application community of appraisal, that sort of thing. Just evidence that you did. This is not it's not being, uh, being, uh, patronizing. You're just trying to make sure that you have evidence for everything you do. Guys don't burn bridges. You know, some of you are leaving your department in Nigeria or your country. You're leaving for the UK You're making everybody look like you know, you have now arrived. You're the best wonder of the world you're not. And don't make everybody feel like they are worse. Because you are now in the UK, you're better know, Don't burn bridges continually, you know, interact with your colleagues back home. I'm still on WhatsApp groups in my department in U C h. I still join, you know, clinical presentations by junior colleagues. I still, you know, if I'm able to share knowledge, I still do, uh, with the materials with drop there and learn from them, we learn from me, don't burn bridges. I'm still in touch with my consultants back home. If I need a reference letter from you know, five consultants in my department in U C. H. Now it shouldn't take more than a week to get five reference letters from 55 different consultants. Not because I'm boosting, but because these are people who trained me. And I've kept touch with many of them. So you don't burn bridges. Those things are very important. Very guide. You know, when I was sitting out making this application, I had a very, very friendly s t five in my department back then and, you know, he was extremely helpful. They would tell me, Look, do this. Don't do that. Do this. Don't do that. Do this. Don't do that. But interestingly, when he applied to S t three, the pattern of application was different. So by the time I was applying, I realized that he didn't know the most latest things the most recent things about the application process. So I got a hold of one of the S D three's who recently applied because the process has changed. Interestingly, if you see the scoreboard for 2018, application is completely different from what it is Now. You know, uh, we don't have time. I would have taken you through what it used to be, But there's no point. So get somebody who has recently applied someone who's S t three or s t four at best. Let the percent guide you through. Um, somebody you can text. What's a message? Can I just ask you this quick question? That is sort of person you need for this process. Um, now, this cannot be overemphasized. You want to sit down to start doing audits all by yourself from start to finish, you will not do much, okay? Trust me, you will not do much. I've talked about, uh, six audit. I did. Within a year, out of those six audit, there were three of us. Uh, one person comes out with one or two ideas. The person does 50% of the work. The other two people does like the other people to do, like, 25 2025% of the work. The three of us are co authors for our dates because we will get involved. We do the presentation together, we prepare the slides together with the final reports together. But one person will take the lead. So instead of you saying I will start from doing from start to finish, you'll probably do too. But if you distribute your energy among to three people who have the same ideas you would do six in the same period of time. So you need to find people who share your opinion, people who share your same vision and ambition. And then that's what's going to drive you along. That's the same thing with publications and presentations. If you want to do that by yourself, you will struggle. You need to change. The appropriate course is, you know, basically surgical skills. It's almost always mandatory. If you've done business surgical skills in your country, you can You can claim for it here once you have a probably certificate I didn't repeat B s s here. Um, I did crisp course they did a TLS. I did call laparoscopy skills course. Uh, I did quite a load of quite a load, of course, is what you need to choose your property ones. So more expensive. Super expensive. Call up was 1100 lbs. I got a 10% discount as a member of the Royal College, but some of those courses are super expensive. Trust me. But if you choose the proper it once and you have this so don't be a stranger. Want to start everything from start to finish it by yourself. You will struggle like I said. Uh, get other people who are doing the same thing involved may not be in your hospital if you have the hospital, that's fab. If you don't even if it is in another hospital, Keep carrying each other a long and you will do well, guys, you need to have a plan B. Okay, Like I told you, it's not everybody that applies for this that will get it. If you come to the UK, would expect that I will get in just the three by fire by force. If you don't get it towards the plan. It's super easy to get frustrated in this system, especially if you're if you're a surgeon, your country and then you come in. You're working as a C T O. Planning to get into ST three s. C three is not coming through. They are using it to plug shifts. You know, Service post, as they said and all of that at some point you get tired, you feel frustrated. You feel like what you came for is not successful. What is the point of moving to the UK and things like that so many people in that situation, which is not easy to be. To be honest with you, you need to have a plan B. If you don't get it, what's your plan? Are you going to go through the seizure pathway? Are you going to do something else? Are you planning to? You know, you know, you need to have a plan B. You trust me, You want to go academic. You want to continue as a specialty doctor, you know, get competencies in a particular specialty. And I see a specialist. Hopefully you can become a consultant for the seizure route. Whatever it is, there has to be a Plan B. That doesn't sound like a nice thing to say, but it's not everybody that applied. I will get it. But I'm just giving you all the fact you need to have. And then you can make an objective assessment yourself. Now let's talk about the application a little bit. Interestingly, they have updated the timelines for the next application round. Okay, I think that just came out a week or two ago. So vacancies for the next three applications will come out on the 16th on November. This year. That's just a little over two months away, and applications will open just a day after, uh, applications usually close three weeks after the open. After vacancies open, they help me, and early December applications would close. And then towards the end of December, they will look at all the eligibility criteria and without people who are not eligible to apply in the first place. So if you're not eligible to apply in the first place, they will with you out. And then they will do what we call long listing. So after everyone is long after they've long listed, they would then send emails to everybody around late December early January and say, upload evidence for everything you've scored yourself for. So by the time you're scoring yourself, you will not approve evidence. I think the only thing you will upload at that time is your, um if I remember well, your crest form. Yeah. You have to submit your Crestor's at that time you're applying. And I think you asked for MRCS as well. If you've started the process or if you've completed it, you need to upload evidence at that time so ineligible people are weeded out at that stage and then the long list. And then we ask everybody to submit evidence. So each single point that you've scored yourself will then be assessed against the evidence you've provided, and they will then give you a mark. See you over. Scored a seven. This domain. You scored yourself in this domain so somebody may score themselves. Uh, you know, someone may score all these points this way arranged, and then they'll say, this one crossed out. You had scored yourself. This one. Cross that you scored yourself. You underscore yourself. We increased your point. You know that sort of thing. So I think when I submitted my the I ended up, my mark ended up reducing by one. The center has got myself into domains. But I understand myself in one domain. So eventually I lost one mark. So when you release those marks, they would then open up the window for appeal so they have unjustly reduced your mark. You can appeal at that point in time. When you appeal, you then have to submit the you have to clarify or submit more evidence to show that they wrongly reduced your mark. If you understand what I mean. So if if if you think they do not score you for some publications you made, you can then say Okay, I have the P m i. D. This is the paper itself, blah blah, blah, blah, and submit it again. And then they review those appeals and then finalize the points. So when you have not finalized, the points and appeals have closed, everybody, I've accepted the points given them. They would then short list. So when the short list everybody shortlisted, then go to interview. Okay, Uh, interviews will be between January and April. I had my interview this year on the fifth of April. If I remember Well, so early April. They're about late March, early April. Do without the interviews. I need to warn you that general surgery generally tend to be slow. So you may hear your colleagues in tier know in urology, getting decisions and all of that. And you in general, we haven't got anything. Just relax When they say will release offers on Social Day, expect that they will postpone it. For some reason, it happens like that. The year before it happened like that again for us so I imagine it may happen again. So just keep calm and expect that sometimes they'll be difficulties with sorting those things and they will delay. Uh, so after interviews, really, within a week or two, the first wave of offers will be released. If you don't get the If you don't get enough air in the first wave, don't panic. Relax. Wait for the next wave because when they give the first wave, some people will reject. Some people will say they don't want, you know, so they will give another wave of offers yearly, like three or four waves. Uh, some people won't get on to the final final final wave, so just come down and hope for the best. All right, Want to do your interview? It's out of your hands already. So everything is left to where you find yourself in the hierarchy. And if it gets to you, excuse me to keep it in perspective. Like I said, the official figures haven't been released. But from what I heard, about seven and 30 apply this year, and we were 2 72 that were interviewed. I think we're supposed to be 2 82 or so. But maybe some wouldn't show up for the interview. 272 were interviewed ultimately. And other 2, 70 to 1 45 jobs. You know, you imagine, um, as close to half of the people that were interviewed do not get jobs. But what you need to do, first of all, is to get yourself to that point of being among the 2 72 or that rough number that will be interviewed. So out of several 30 some people were kicked out for not being eligible. And then some people were, um, shortly stayed out because you cannot interview everybody. So you need to get to the interview first, and then we'll take it from there. So when you eventually get off for yearly by April, early May by August October usually, uh, you have to start work next year, and a few people will start in February 2024. Okay. So you can scan the QR code for where I found the stable from All right. So, um, this is my I don't know how Claire this is, uh, let me see. Okay. Let me blow it up a little bit. Maybe that helps. Okay, right. So this is Oh, really? This is the platform where you were. Um there are different things. I think I just grabbed this page from my dashboard. Uh, see, my dashboard document applications, preferences, messages, interview off the TC. So if you come down here, uh, you can see genealogy s t three, or you can see general surgery s t three. Okay, you can see both because I applied for both urology and general surgery. Uh, and if you see, urology will see Shortlist unsuccessful. So I was long listed by the point of shortlisted. They kicked me out. Um, And to be honest, my my probably was more suited for general survey anyway, at an urology, but at least six months of neurology, So I thought I would give it a shot as well. So this is general surgery? Is the frequency offer accepted? And here this This is quite an interesting thing to see when you apply, it takes this box as is completed. When you get long listed, it takes it and says, completed. When it gets at least it, it takes it and says, completed when you get to the point of giving interviews, says Completed. And finally, when you get an offer, you say it gets off and takes green and says Completed. Okay, so this process, you know, it takes about 5 to 6 months for this chain to be completed. But as soon as if for any reason you don't get long listed, it crosses about and it prints it red. And that's the end. So at the end of the whole thing, this is what you get. Get uh, the application status. You see your rank out of the total number of, uh, people that go to the final stage. Um, let's run through a few things about the interview. Um, I think we need to wrap up soon so we can have some time for questions before nine. Um, for this year, the interview held online on teams. Uh, you need to be in a private room of a private office. Good Internet connection. You need to show them the room before the interview starts. You need a photo I d. So that they are sure it's the same person. Uh, lasted for about 30 35 minutes or two scenarios. You will have eight minutes to read the two scenarios you can write during the time you're reading these scenarios. So you have a pen on a paper with you, which is supposed to be blank. They will check all of that before you start. Uh, one clinical scenario and one management scenario, management and leadership, so to speak. And then they will have some time to discuss your portfolio and your career with you as well. So that's the point where they can ask you. You said you're eating five papers. Tell me the one that is most important to you. And tell me what what you mean. Findings of that paper. You know, that sort of thing. Or they can ask you since you applied. You know, the interview is going to be sometime in March, April, and you applied in November. They would say, since you applied, what else have you added to your portfolio? You know, So these are sort of questions you get at that stage of portfolio discussion. Yeah. You get two or three interviewers, uh, who are usually consultants, surgeons themselves. There are rumors that everything will go back to what it used to be this year because of it has gone, and what it used to be would be interviewed. We're usually face to face. And you will need to come with your portfolio in hardback. So people will come with massive, massive folders, uh, very nicely demarcated, you know, colorful and all of that with all the evidences of everything you've done. So to be, like a PhD thesis, that sort of thing. I mean, we didn't do that because everything was virtual by. Imagine, I'm hearing rumors that it may go back to that. Nothing is confirmed that I don't have any official information like I said, but I'm just giving you a heads up that that may be the situation this year and the interview, maybe in the form of whiskey. So watch out for that. So we have to go into one room, demonstrate your scale going to the next room, do clinical management clinical scenario, go to the national leadership scenario, going to the next room discussion about portfolio and things like that. So I think you should prepare your mind for that. Uh, if you're applying this year, um, for interview preparation, a lot, a lot of of things to say, but we keep it at at this for now? Because we're not just there yet. Really? The study partner, I think I think that helped me. Uh, family was my study partner. We both got ST three numbers. He got your number in Yorkshire. Uh, I got mine in Scotland. So a study partner really helps because you're going to the interview to do something. So you may as well just start doing that thing, uh, before the interview comes. So you need to practice and practice and practice. There are lots and lots of study materials, but I do not have any affiliations to these two. I do not get anything from them. Uh, and they have not paid me to advertise. But this where the resources are used. I thought they were helpful. Anybody especially. You know, there are lots of buzz words that you need to. You need to have your armamentarium for the interview. Lots and lots of buzz words. When you're talking, you need to be seeing those things. It's when they hear those things. You know, you're talking when you're not seeing those things. You're not seeing anything, you know? So I mean, those are things we can talk about more when we get to that stage. Um, I think more interviews really helped. Like I said, I worked in the department. I was extremely supportive to me. Personally, I don't know what other people's experiences have been in that department, but trust me, I think the department was one of the media factors that pushed me to getting all the things I needed to get. I had more interviews with four consultants, um, into two groups. Uh, two consultants organized a face to face interview for me and put me on the spot and drink me for 30 minutes. Exactly how the interview will be made all the mistakes I I needed to make that corrected me. And then another two consultant day. There's virtually, you know, dedicated their time, and I'm entirely grateful to them for their support. You know, out of house at nine PM, you know, the dedicated time, and then they, you know, did it for me. Virtually drilled me thoroughly for about 30 35 minutes. And, you know, that really helped me to prepare for the real interviews. But that was really, really that it just felt like I've done this before. That sort of thing. Of course, the questions were completely different, but the whole set up was about the same. So Mark interviews will really help. Uh, even if it's not, we'll consult and see if you're with people who have done interviews before. Senior S t three s, s t four s, t or even ST ate Some of them already, um, joining consultants to interview for core training so they know how it is for ST Three Interview as well. All right, so I think we'll start there. Um, this handbook is very, uh, informative. So if you scan the QR code, take you to the handbook that I took a lot, a lot of the material used for and this last website is where you find everything you need to know about the application process. This last website here is the repository about the information. So everything I've used these are resources, and you're welcome to scan the QR code and get the documents. I will stop at this point, and I am happy to take questions. Uh, if we can pop them in the chart, we can crack on from there or if there's anybody who wants to, Uh, well, let me hand out what to do. A chemical to decide what to do with that. Okay. Thank you so much. I think a few questions in the box already. We do have a few questions and two questions from okay. U K has posted a few questions. Is the WCS lot of procedures not accepted without putting it in the log book? So, um, personally, what I did was I Okay, so the the simple answer to your question is, yes, it should be, But, um, I imagine my log book is going to be the same as yours. The, you know, in the front two or three pages, there is somewhere where H o. D. Is supposed to sign Residency training coordinator is supposed to sign. Another consult is supposed to sign, and it should be stamped. And each procedure is supposed to be signed at the end, if you understand what I mean. So if all of that was done for you, I think you can use that without putting it in the log book. Uh, the reason I put it in a log was because I was combining my open up and hysterectomies with my laproscopic appendicectomy. Even that's what I mean. So I thought it was just better for me to just log everything in the log book. But because I was doing those in retrospect, I was recording procedures I did in 2017 in the log book. So I wanted to just have a backup evidence that this is where those procedures came from. So I put them in there, open up any symptoms more so I know. You know, in the UK, people don't routinely to open up the symptoms except maybe if you're doing laproscopically, it gets complicated or something like that. So it was easier for me to just do it that way. So I scanned Consider relationship. We just signed and standby consultant with GMC number and then scanned the relevant pages of my WCS log book under that. So in the same pdf document. So it was about eight pages or so. So the first page was a consolidation sheet. The second page was the page signed and standby HED and residency training coordinator and then relevant. Appendicectomy page page is on the WCS log book, So if you do that there shouldn't be any problems. Um, I think the scan, the first page, the back of the log book as well, so that you know, that's the part that shows your name and the year that you that you did your training and I did the procedures. So if you do it that way, there shouldn't be any problem. Um, the other question is, what can one do if the first of the publication has been accepted by a permit journal for publication, but yet to be published employment doing excellent. Excellent question. So I I had one like God as well, and I scored point for it. So what I did is, uh, there is a There's a paper we already had accepted in the East African Journal of East African General of Surgery. Yes, East African General of surgery. That's the one in Tanzania or Kenya. I can't remember now, so But they the journal is indexed an appointment, but at that time they are not published, but it had been accepted. So what I did is to, um I scanned the female male tennis. I scanned email of acceptance, and I put it in there and I, Of course. I put the title of the paper. The authors I lighted my light in my name in bold. I wasn't the first author was this third or fourth. Um And then I put the acceptance email under that, And I said, this, uh, publication has been accepted by, uh, this journal. But of course, I have not received department idea, but if you, uh and I imagine you won't have a permit idea until it's published, But if you can put that in there, you can get a point for it. So my first page of the publication thing was, uh, I typed every all my papers out on Microsoft Word the topic, the the I cited each of them and I put a permit I d and I put my name in board. So I listed 1234567, that sort of thing. And then the next page and up on the front page is the first pages of each of those papers. So put everything in the single pdf and uploaded, and I got I got a point for that. So you can you can definitely do that. You can definitely score a point for it. Um, I suspect this may vary between reviewers review always looking at your public and they say, Well, it's not been published because the application, whatever says it should have been published. Right now you're applying. But, I mean, look, you don't you don't lose anything by putting it in. The worst they can say is that is no. So put it in. And if they say no, hopefully by the time you are appealing, you know, if you end up, if they end up saying no and they reduce your mark by one Because of that, when they released the verified scores, they were giving window for appeals. So who knows? But now you're appealing the appointment that they may have come out and they just put it in. And then you say, Well, department that is here. And then that that sorted. But I would put it in if you have something like that, Yeah, have to accept us. E mail's already and I'm the first author. Excellent. Excellent. I would go for it. I will go for it. I will go for it. And I think I will be checking. I mean, this is just September. So if the if the journal, uh, not the very lazy ones they should be able to publish by the time you are applying November. And even if they haven't put it in, uh, if they reduce your marks by the time you are feeling in, say, December January, you will have the PM I G. And then you will general of the basis. Well, they used to be very slow, but I think they're a bit faster now. I have The people with them have been dragging for a very year. Uh, but I think you're faster now, so that should be That should be fine. I should be fine. So I think you I think you should put it in. It's indexed. It's index improvement. So that's that's cool. Excellent. Um, do we have any more questions from anybody? No, I don't think we have any. Any further questions at this time? Okay. Just came in from right. Let's have a look. I have received glass award shield for a post representational. Right. Provide evidence of that. I don't have a printer. Is dedicated letter of appreciation so you can scan that. I mean, you can take a very lovely picture of that glass of the shield rather, uh, take a very lovely picture of the shield. Uh, you know, I sort of, um, invested in a pdf scanner, Uh, pdf scanning up for my application because I had loads of pdf paperwork I needed to do. And I don't want watermarks or scan by scan, scam camp scan and things like that to appear on them. So I paid, I think, 22 lbs or something like that for one year subscription for Camp scanner. And that's what I use. So everything came out very neat and clean and lovely and very presentable. And you can merge. Pdf, you can split. Pdf, you can convert. Pdf. You can rearrange the other and things like that on it. Uh, which was good. So I would take a lovely picture of the, uh, shield. Um, get his can't a nice way. Very legible, readable. And then you can put that in so that shouldn't be a problem. But you said it's a poster presentation. Um, I don't think you score a 0.4 poster presentation, if you remember. Um, what I mentioned on the presentation I don't know if you noticed that. Um, you you don't You don't score points for posters in ST three applications. Sadly, Yeah, well, I mean, there's no harm you can put it in. If they give you a point for it, It's It's your It's a good thing for you. Candidate from a clinical, We'd be accepted for audits. Um, completing soon without having audit certificate from the audit. Seems because they have lots of presentations yet to be treated by other candidates. Absolutely. So when I was when I was applying the I had two of the audits that I have not received certificates for. So what I did was to scan all the part B forms that have been signed by the consultants That was in the audit. So as can be partly forms. And, um, there was an email when we pushed the part. The forms to the audit coordinator. Uh, they said, uh, this will be discussed in there next meeting, after which they will issue certificates. So I just I scanned the probably forms, and then I put the email at the bottom to say this, but it is all completed. I'm only waiting to receive certificates, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and was accepted. So if you get a letter from the clinical it, I think that even much better. So you shouldn't have any problems with that. Yeah. I mean, the people reviewing these things are also consultant. They know they know the the difficulties you will likely face with getting some of these things. So you just have to show commitment and sure that I have done this, and then they should be able to sensibly give you your do marks. Amazing. Any more questions, guys, how many points for Q Tip is for one is one point. If it is, um, single cycle one point if it is double two points. But of course, there is a maximum, um, is the maximum number of points you can get for audits? I think, uh, the maximum Yes. Four. So the maximum you can score under that domain is four. So if you're dividing factor is three, for instance, maximum of jail. But it is what you need, because even if you put 14, you must come with an um they won't call you for more than they don't score you more than four. If you're dividing factor is five. That means you need 20 audits to score five to score four points. Does that make sense? Yeah. So it's a functional where dividing factor is great. Can we get your emails? Yeah, I can do that. My mail in the mailbox place for it to go in touch. Uh huh. Okay. So should we wait a minute or two? If there are no questions, we can call it a day. Does that sound good to you? Take Omega. Um, yes. Okay. So one or two more minutes, if anyone is still typing, you can say questions. If we don't have more, we we'll be logging out in two minutes, Okay? Uh huh. An international collaborative papers counted. If you're talking about things like Covitz journal of that, they are counted. So far, they are index on the bottom. It. I heard there was a paper quarter by about 10,000 people. You know, coated search was done in such whether even if you just collect data your course. So I think people are scoring points for that. So absolutely. So go for it. If you have coded such papers, Comet indexed Yeah, were rolling the door. Let's go for it and submitted to get your point. That's not That's fine. That's completely fine. Even if there are 300 authors so far, you're one of them. And his index important that you get your point. Unless they released a new guideline to say collaborative papers are excluded. But for this year, they didn't exclude graduated papers. So as as completely fine. Okay, um, I think the time is the fast spent, so come to an end now. That's okay. You have any further questions, please send them by email to the speaker. The email is provided in the chart box. I take this last question before we go. All right. When I tell you Chris and train the trainers counted train. The trainers are coming under teaching. You score one point for that. If you have a TV set in teaching, you scored two points a TLS and crisp. So in previous years, you score. There is a domain, four courses. But there was a domain. Focus is, uh, but in the last two years, since you've it started, they erased that domain. But there were There were rumors last year that they will bring that back this year. So you may you may be able to stop and focus is this year. If not, you will get points for it at the interview. When they say, Tell us your commitment to the specialty, so and then you say, Oh, I've done this. I've done a TLS Chris course. You rattled them. That's what I did because I spend a lot of money doing those courses. Luckily for me, I had a bit of study budget from my from my previous trust, but, uh, I had to pay out of pocket for a good number of the courses. So you will score points for that at the interview. In a way, it's not like there's a domain for scoring point for for that interview. But you will make a case for yourself to see I've done this. I've done that. I've done this. I've done. And you see them screaming. I'm putting marks on the sheet for you. Okay, but who knows when the application this year and they come back? Excellent. This may be a good point to stop. All right. And thank you so much, Mr Laquan. Thank you. so much for everyone. What's indeed? And and you can Like I said, you can send any other additional questions you have to Mr Like over email. Thank you again. And have a lovely night, everyone. Thank you, my boy. Good night, please. Um you can feel the feedback form that will be provided. Um and then the recording of this session will also be made available as well.