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eyes. I wouldn't I wouldn't underestimate the coffee. And asking a question on that is a love the Segway onto our next speaker eyes. Ryan Kirstein is a consultant plastic surgeon. He's got a specialist interest in skin cancer. Hey, is the founder of Tourney Strip on? He is also the technology editor for the role colleges surges of England on. I did have a coffee with him at the asset, um, future surgery conference, and he was absolutely lovely. So do not underestimate that. And look where we meet again. All right? So without further ado, Mr Cursed, I'm gonna hand it over to you. Please tell us about ah, your your journey eggs and thank you very much. Let me just get said they, uh I'm actually going to do so slightly different. And so I'm gonna follow one from on what death was going on and on. They would have been amazing. Pill come really tired. Definitely quite make it so that started, You know, it would have been epic. Um, I'm gonna look at innovation from the kind of the point of you off the kind of certain, and as you go along, your career actually What? What is innovation and how can we How can we in a bait in surgery? So I will I will save my journey for a, uh the next time I get invited to a mental pit. And so I think the first step of my a position about to give you is you're gonna be either your move, our phones or a or a extra tab Foodland on up on the browsers on do is get a slide of thumb on done that they were they The number cannot begin that it, uh, by blood 8587 because they say it will come up again. Okay, say thanks for that super kind introduction to my name brand Kathleen. I'm the plastic surgeon working in State Medical and Buckingham share. I'm one of the like that one of the major. It's critical level. It's on a massive, massive gadget. You just love pack, and it's and it's that combination, which means they have been really, really fortunate and been able to be the technology editor and write for the surgeon's bill. It's a job say I hope that over the next 15 or seven minutes and kind of give you a good understanding off to innovates what innovation is? Why innovate And then the final bit only, uh, magic your count. So we're gonna start with an innovation on improve and chest tactile. The last two times I've given this door is a little bit of back has completely failed me. That is a a massive evangelist under the wrong with it again. And to see if it works, don't I let it get slightly to call put into the put it in the code and hopefully it should ask you who you think the most innovative companies organizations are. We'll see if anything changes. Yeah, definitely. Here, is it? And just could, you know, years I can hear Is it coming up with? Is it asking for the options? Uh, apple, apple, Apple and Google Way? Fantastic. Good. Gets a new message. Surprises super clammy. Um Spotify I would argue with as off today, they are definitely in my tech bad. But if anyone has been following Twitter on thank you for ever thinks that this slider code is innovative on D. But you can see that what we've got there at some of the big companies AstraZeneca Really interesting joints medal, of course, coming in twice A good so actually, is a pretty good mix. Usually people just stop it really kind of the text. Uh, they you can get adding it in in a happy to share what people think. Another end after it's luckily way we know the missing of it. It it are, and it doesn't need me and have doing silently. Odd side polls in President's There is an organization called Fast Company, and every year they release who they think that the most innovative companies so not matter of surprises. If you look at five of the top 10 apple, Netflix, Amazon uber Facebook, do you look at that? You know, that's really interesting, Ryan, But my in any way is that bill of them to healthcare. Health care is a V on older kind of organize a genetically really, and it's it's an old organization. These are all young, agile startup, sanction centric. Um, the lady just can't be an innovator. Causes health care because it's old and I would argue that that's not true, Dude. In in 10 day in the 140 years old, so licked the NHS look like a spring chicken on They are. They're in the think That's 15 watching compote. One of the oldest, um, news publications in the world is there now. Those are technic I needed Will know that Jeff Bezos water into watching compatriots know massive surprise Space six new company. But old into that, they've managed to completely revolutionize satellite delivery and ultimately, space travel on day old companies, organizations hand in effects. Inhaler is hopefully in a year, but then your next coming. Really? That's great, right? They just help you called in a baby in the house. And that's not true. You know, um, this, um, amazing companies in the top 20 of the parts complete most intimate moments. So one room looking at your your genetics to work out with your life, get side effect or be from certain drug trials and playing to streamline your selected to drug charge based on your genetics. Um, CVS is American Farmer Pharmacy company. Right. Boots over here. What? All of the US Times accompanies are losing stores. They are growing stools because they're using lots of digital helpful so that that's similar to help, um, rationalized medications and then surely Slew A Life Corp hour. The first Apple Watch is with BCG. He's on a lot of reject that they fell over something like 30 million Easter. Geez, off the back of their of their watches on the Vertex again old old compete hands healthcare company. With all the research I've been doing with the cancer, any university on copy, we can have an older health care company has an intimate I guess that that is the case. Next letter is what is innovation. So we talked a lot about, um that should have good. So we talked a lot about innovation and there's lots of talked. You go with a little bit health care, innovation. So my question to you is what is innovation Bone But his health that reading me two. And this time I'll be patient. That's basically you know, it It worked last time. It'll that by skated itty I like you and you stopped. That was me getting to the system. Where that finding simple solutions Yeah, yeah, that will come back to that is a really good good point. Progress. Um, natural selection Natural section is definitely an innovation. Love it. Um, advancements. good. These are really great on, because the question is, what? How does how is creating different from innovate or how it is changed in innovation, That same Teo better outcomes that brilliant going to come back to back on. So these are really, really good, is it? Are they truly a definition of what innovations? Stay note again, doesn't leave me and decided to tell you activation. So am I. Team. The next innovation is invention on the ability to communicate allies. Now I am they massive, um, a public sector family. And so I'm not sure that when it comes to healthcare, commercialization is actually the right term. I would say it's that's innovation is invention, and we'll come out for each of these really name times by the value that you can add. And the question of Is it possible? So what's innovate? What's invention? So mention These are kind of ideas and help get a girl. BPH practice Andi, even if it's not delivered, tell a patient that is a broadly How is this helping patient care and give you something that helps train surgeons? Oh, totally. It's still something that this day to help. It's gonna be expertise driven that I, if you think they are, is the future again? Talk to somebody that is involved in the, uh, chemo is really possible. And don't just get all of the midst of verse. It's where it is. You know what I'm doing now, bro? Brother Metaverse into everything I do. It should be proactive as it leads to react. It's ValueAct know if there is one slice in this entire presentation you to take home, it's this. No. If you want you to be getting your health, you're going to do one of two things. So either gonna improve that some all you're going to reduce the cost to get that and then these can be propped. It's and again bigger training. Ideally, if you are training, if you have a new way of trading the next generation certain's, then you'll probably grieving out and reducing costs. And but the truth is actually to really have a quantifiable improvement on health care. Outcomes is difficult on a huge cost. That is the driver. Many come to find a new stakeholders that you end up having to really prove you're worth to, and is it possible So in order for elevation to be possible, you've gotta have a lease committed to it. You can't. You can't get it into places. If innovation is, know that priority, he's gonna be cross sectional. This is another key turning point for that story is you cannot do everything on your age. You your kind of med students, trainees, surgeons Because whatever it is that your area of expertise and you may know some tech on the side. But in order to really get something working, you need artists left in crosses. You have to you have to measure it. It's gonna find a performance electric. So is it really working other things like it's really improved and kind of taking learning some books, like the leads up on dust. Reiterate, this is a teen activity. You may have the first idea. That's nothing but the fact that you go So, uh, these things take a long time. Especially it's in healthcare. So, um, have any idea is to run a beginning in the jack. Okay, So what about is why should we? Anything this do we know? We know that we had anything we looking of. It is, but Why do it? Well, historically, innovation was brought into the neck. That's the lead reasons. You had a headline in the in the newspaper on every some pressure to a breast that everyone get minority now or a little external from the N H gets. And that was really what that then her innovation was driving and on duty. Of that said, 20 strip, which is money for startup, was is they, uh, you were used to locate that we developed because of the MRI. Keep up and this was back in 2000, for this used to be what innovation was driven by. But now it's changed, even any distinguishing. If you look on the website and rid of each, it tells you the innovation is critical. It we need to be wrapping up to improves the big pair that we deliver to deliver better outcomes. Beginning test Is the world large? It's healthcare provider. See if we can note too healthy of it, we could send you have a huge wealth creator in this country you can deal. It is not reactive marrow. There's now around noon. It's really change it. It's not just something that they kind of center, the NHS. So here's two great reports. I'm biased and would urge people to read the future surgery report on's outlining kind of how surgery and healthcare is going to change in how we achieve those changes. And you've got organizations that any chest X trying to kind of maintain the strategy of that. The national level on this is being fell on the ground. So this is some hot off the press states over myself in a colleague looking at. So this is looking at the ER publications using the terms B R A. Are in surgery and you can see year on year. It's increasing. Hey, very briefly. Let's stop the What are the tightening of agents that game on? Said the diversity is believed around averaging. Virtuality your medicine pretty on, By the way, these headings or what's the future of surgery clumps It's animations into. Okay, I'm gonna be taking you to suck eggs on this one. Um, I'm sure you will know. So reality will mention reality. Victory ality back to reality. So reality is walking. Getting Israel life or vented reality is superimposing a digital image on your environment. The tubings are not angry to one another. You may see on BG traits up in the air or never is that it's not related to what's in front. Make it reality, actually, take tract issue images and paint. Is it on to something? Um, and as you move around, that digital image stays in place relative to What is it showing on? The reality is let me off the super back to where it is. Your complete includes individual fire. Okay, saying going through that spectrum, even reality is being or bent it. So we over it's stable. About two trial. These head units. They are definitely more members. Bugle glass. They're very similar, so it's a fork. A camera that wraps around the front of your eyes on it has a screen pointing brackets. So from our headsets we can send the images of what we're doing to trainees in another room in another country, wherever on day can take screen grabs of that doodle on it or send images back. And they have been a culture screen don't even see in front of us. So a border that second it's borderline or reality. That eagle, it's just, you know it's just showing it up on the screen as a base. Um, really betting into your environment. But even one president is even books out of reality. There are things we can do a little bit. In reality, it's on the left Is pleated universities on, actually programs where all the trainees you're on the stand around and there was a on anatomical model able see in person, they can move that around in last artsy the bell who came to our see that their their their belts pumping a weight on diesel actually hololens on the right. This video never works and read would say this property me, Um which is a, uh, and pull it from a good friend of mine, um which is bringing augmented reality into the insulin stater where a surgeon somebody could be superimposing their finger or instruments over an image that's going backwards and forwards between the operating side and the remote site Mixed reality. So I think it's some of the cooler stuff, But this is a company in Helsinki, dizzy or they take CT images of fractured mad was hands analyze image analysts of fractured hatin and then were the top worked out what kind of dictation it's best. That fracture. You didn't play Holland a little bit and superimposes the plate on the fracture after. Therefore, you don't mind, you did. It's not seeing in front of that you have, you know you have the strongest on fixation possible on on the right. This is in college, so it is a plastic surgery teen that for no limp. All are using a highlands again to show where the perfect deserts of the skin so you can create local, regional flat life knowing that got a good blood supply because you've seen it on the CT. So as the surgeon moves around the table, all those images stay locked to the leg they are. There's exciting special training. There's great companies like Fundamental Be are also touch surgery. So silly, Fundamental. Also, you could walk into a A actual operating room and let somebody else and hand tools to one another. Move X ray machines around taken X ray off your virtual teacher, and I haven't predicted up in the walls in front of you on then. People are under middle of a feedback, so there's instruments you can use that connected to what you're doing and it's be back into the instruments is to build like a drilling into both, for example, and then you like that. Whoever Amazing library of, um, of cases. Robots coming. They're interesting. They are much more in closed cavity a Z, a urology General surgery, a point that big users for last six point of view. There's been some units in cleft and have neck cause you can turn around at night degrees or a parent so really exciting. Robots, just to be clear, are currently master slave, so you have to have a surgeon somewhere controlling it. We are not at the point so far off autonomous when people to everybody spread to the about that kind of march. It's late. There is a little bit of this is the trend side of things that someone has gone. We really should do robotics in flap reason in that territory, and it is a here flat. Lose it that they know it's a breast MRI hun. Take about 4 to 5 hours to do the flats that's finished that have used it reveals a robot in the states to 18 hours, and you to end up going to cut the flap out. Anyways, you get the same stuff. See you. Nothing. Is there three d three D printing of the one of my one on the left is my favorite Part of the total isn't agent that's start with a three D printed prosthesis that had Iron Man come and deliver his processes out. Who is that on? Be moving on. That really is a kind of really bringing, but bio three d printing the ability to create by a little framework to then cells are printed into s so they will come a time when you can have your liver on the shelf that you think that's been printed on you. Then get it plummeted. Big data. Okay, historically on on already historically, because none of it is to take the over. The big data was driving a lot of potential, but diagnostic to preventive mental petition. It's and and so on. But it was all very research based, and and you had to kind of get hold of these huge data. This is interesting. Is that that how many things in your gets have not smoked? What? Or a smart ring or a mobile food in their pocket, constantly collecting data. That's only have these big data algorithms are being fed live data all the time. And not only that, but that life major is being sent at rapid speeds to the, uh to really, um, edge or kind of based computers. So you're getting a maid intact and this is only the beginning. You can now get a BP offer be sent in the size of watch somebody liturgy. You don't need a big practical Just put that small sensor and get exactly the same response is why I have no, really that's not swinging back. You could split center on and it's done continually and then uses big data Trident white friends before it would otherwise even response it. And on taking that that data you have amazing companies that are innovating every step of the weight eso mile on there. They're doing the kind of lots around on the pre Have all this lead a phenomenal concentric looking at Mr and informed consent using that big data on my recovery using that kind of puts not rehab. The data on those specials interventions as a mixed areas. Lots of drug. It's no attack. There's a amazing kind of biotech, the names, you know, the normal, which is one of my big press You ever lose tonight by the elevation is going on And they really important thing is, as surgeons, we are at the middle of this. Where is it used to be that it was elevated to push on into it. We're now able to be involved every step away. So identify the problems on identify the best way to address units. And these are all companies started as well as other ones we've mentioned already started by surgical. Uh oh. A surgeon. CMR Mrs Slackers. A gynecologist in and in, uh, Cambridge Digital Surgery. John and Andre Proxy. Nadine My recovery Excellent tongue concentric to be there is well, with that head to they're amazing. That's a clinician lead that start up really changing the land. So how do you do the streets like from it? Thank you. Number one A, B C D. I love a B C D. And if they're on medicines in the audience, a B C D no longer means airway breathing circulation. Disability in now means always be connecting box. If you come up with the problem in your when, When on? Also think about how is this elsewhere? So, for example, passage off patients from clinic into better could be comfortable. Well, where else do we get people from? I can initial point of information away. It was separate set time and then get them for It's a free world. Argue the air lots that if I'm booking a holiday, I get bloated information about stuff that's out there, Billy. Then get my my booking. And I then used to be a uh so the empire bracelets and start the minute on being make sure I get to the right on time with all the right Mente to 90. So we need to use some of that that world outside to work out what we can do. The other thing that for a B c. D. It also means connect up with people, too. It's very it's something you're interested, and you need more details on a R V e r. Whatever it is, you know, and talk to people. Didn't I just said Go get that hostage. Don't think the people leave their little bit breaks. I don't read that will. But other things that isn't home is that in healthcare, we all face the same problems that's global, not just in the U day signal and talked to help you orthopedic surgeons there on the garden. How are they being with getting treatments? And they're dealing with brief over doing with lessons whenever it is because maybe they have a solution. Really Know which is Your problem is bigger than you Miller's or your attempt to his big Don't get the mail been mentally not very good in this, and I'll see the caveat is patiently become stressed. But try things out and don't be scared to share. Really, really. And that is my whistle stopped all off innovation. Amazing. That was Ah, that was I. I loved it and much like your your previous talk, which I think is quite similar. But this was this was very, very good. I think he touched a couple of new things. Uh, don't Well, you like, got anything? Oh, you're on mute. Done it 2022 problems. And, uh so I think Ryan's kind of A B C D is really interesting. And linking to Amanda's question in terms of how do you get involved? And it kind of can you innovate the students? So in many ways, like those who are new to a problem can see it so much easier. So there's that kind of sweet spot of for innovation. Often where you come into a problem, you learn a little bit about it, and you can see the issues before it can become ingrained. And you kind of just become blind to it. So I think lots of great ideas come from students and and also So I did a took the other weekend and we drink some kind of cases to say, Okay, here's here's an imaginary kind of digital solution in healthcare like, How would you go about it? And what's the kind of go to market strategy? How would you kind of commercialize it will if we're not allowed to commercial? Estes, right doesn't like that, and and one of the things that said there was one just example of of somewhere in arrogance years. But there's a new generations bring different ideas. So, you know, I was running in this workshop with us my age, mid thirties, not particularly old but still the generation coming through. You know, 2021 actually had a complete, different approach, like content on do like contact irritation and kind of making money from content and basically, the YouTube generation of people who who have seen these like amazing innovators in content and kind of Brandon content seeing different solutions to to even what we, you know, 13, 14 years older we're seeing so one of the questions that was kind of coming for that was like the huge explosion in innovation and ideas and things coming through with Kobe like, Are we too late as students and we could have missed the boat away. The innovation happened in 2020 and damage. We've missed it. It's just just not true. Like there's just we're just the start, kind of like rooms that we just did. This start like this is the tip of the iceberg in terms, in terms of innovation, opportunities there so many, and not only there's so many. But as the next generation coming through, you will just see things differently in see opportunities just because of the way the world has bean, as you've kind of come through. That and so Can you innovate? Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can. And you may well be the best people to do that. Yeah, I I think that was fantastic. Very good words of encouragement. We have a couple of minutes guys as well until we until we we move on. I had some questions if you wanna start typing any questions that you guys have. So I think the ER on DA mixed reality is going to be essential towards how we're looking at training. There was a conversation I was having in between operative cases where I start to a consultant and talking about how their level of training or exposure they got is completely different to what we are getting. His training is now on. We need to bridge that gap. And, you know, I I have one of these. Actually. Unfortunately, I have one of these sitting around, but we have We have nothing to really use it much for, apart from a couple of companies that are allowing sort of simulation around surgery at the moment. So it would make a lot of sense if we had something like simulation in between. Either cases are on study days where you can really hold your abilities on especially ah, things like mechanical or step two step uh, situations where you won't understand what's the next step, what to do in this challenge and be more fluid with your thought process Onda way Do have a degree of that up here in Scotland where we have laproscopic simulators and I I have a theater day today, but I have to get a covert test because I wasn't feeling very well on by used. I used a lot simulated for for my morning. It was made it. So, uh, I I think it's really good. Ah, question that I had for you, Ryan, was, uh So there's a thing called the ideal framework that is used around innovation in surgery, but more so towards things that are more procedural operative. Do you think something like this will start becoming a thing in help tech or Metchek? Do you think we will have to build some kind of framework in which we can fit in? Or is there is there anything in place already on? Is this a thought process that people should have when they're moving towards having their own idea of going on idea to execution A really good question and yeah, absolutely. Doing the ideal framework is a is used in in, um, health tech innovation. It breaks down the protests from my ideas ideal on the inside, um, spots a contact number. But I I idea development, expiration us. That's a long term study. But yeah, everything is like a check list of what you need to do and what you need to present on. But it's actually vital because the thing with this been like that we shouldn't be reinventing the wheel on. There isn't good jobs that other people are, either. Then we'll be done or try. You don't live in. But it was a little this week Publish on getting up open and transparent. The problem is, we will meet resort. It's real. It's well, I have never get So I do is fantastic. Perfect. There are two you like. There's not many people want to publish. Things are not positive on. Not many places want to be the publishers. And so we did. We have a hurdle within our our specialties. You address that on, but yeah, absolutely, I do Is is that to try to keep. I really think what the core of it is. Depression. See you every step of the way. If you follow the ideal free much, then you'll know you would have ticked off the the Now I can be improved absolutely on is biblical getting that that on a pretzel, What is invented. It's so master and everything feeds into the ideal free book. So there is some blacks on that that fundamentally, yes, you'd ideal for ongoing should be published. Yeah, that's amazing. On DA there's been lots of talk about corrections and B C funding and things exploding everywhere. I think we're very fortunate in a way where in the NHS was very evidence based on what we do around everything on that sort of mindset is very unique. If you go to other industries or take a lateral direction, your career and people, people find that really refreshing. Um, so I'll go to a question here in the chart is our in plastics. Are you currently using? You're developing a R or MRI? Mixed reality for achieving clear margins and skin cancer surgery. I think it's a good question. That's a great question. Um, and as far as, um, a bit. I don't need anyone has done it. I think one of the problems is, um, actually, how you would really know, Because quite often, skin cancers, they kind of buried underneath the skin. And so the skin looks fine, Incidental, knowing where you're like to start the throat and entity. But these kind of big margins have the one I see. I think it's really interesting. And yeah, it's all my lab. The brain that things would like to do at using a are for a recount. So you can then work out based on the kind of face shape. Whatever is, you can work out what the best reconstructions have been like that busy or superimposing plates on bones. You can use a rto they will active the Ottoman Uh, recalls of this defect is bits on. Therefore you bid You already have two along the lines. You're saying you do your own intent on. So, as I mentioned, we are, we're just about to trial the rods and cones headsets World's got the credit headset coming to hammer abates on set ups. And then you got people like broccoli. You being remember up during off skiing and list on Detrol medicine for migraines for a while. So there are pockets, but specifically on skin cancer margins day. Yeah, that's Ah, that's amazing. And, you know, it's very impressive in plastic surgery. You guys seem to be a great cohort for innovation or even a dean with proximity. You got show any strict with me? Yeah. And then John would cut surgery. It's amazing out. I'm I I like orthopedics. I'm hoping some of this actually impacts in orthopedics. I I like that you talked about, um, the plates and using ah algorithms to be able to figure out what would be more optimal on DA You know what can possibly be changed? Um, we've got another question here so that we have a look here. One more. Could you expand a bit on funding for med tech here in the UK So I think I had a chat with use roughly similar to this. Well, on this is something on most people's mind. Uh, love to hear what you'd like to say today on dad's. You doing a little little, uh, you You're probably going through for reach. Me? Yeah. So? And context of gonna first, So we've. But we've been taking a few grants, and that's how we started off. And then, more recently, we've done a C ground with and angel investors on Do a Venture. So I think it's pretty hard to say in kind of one nugget like What's the approach? So first off, there's lots of money out there, so there's, you know, there's there's a huge amount of money in digital health for the right ideas. If you if you If you've got an idea what kind of something that you've proven to a certain extent, you'll be able to find money for it. And there are other avenues in terms of grants. And it's a reasonably grant heavy space because, you know, there's that kind of shift from research grant and to kind of innovation grants. And and again there's there's plenty of avenues there I would imagine. My general answer to that kind of thing is, if you haven't idea and you're kind of wondering what the right kind of path to take and there's pros and cons of the different ways and could have different scenarios, you would go and look for funding a different point. So if you have something that you can really quickly deliver and kind of test really quickly, and that actually might not need some funding straight off. But if it's something you know which needs more recent development before you can get beyond, then you probably funding earlier. So I would just say, Reach out to people in the in the kind of industry. And hopefully, you know, in a five minute conversation, we can probably give you some reason to be sensible and thoughts on. Think this might be a good have a new foot for this kind of idea? Or maybe not. You know, try that. So and I just reach out to people in space, including myself. Have to like, That's Ah, that's amazing. Guys on DA like uh, like the overall team on Ryan mentioned already is sharing is amazing in the space. So sure, your idea with asthma any people, it's possible, and you'll get the best. You'll get the best feedback. I'm just going to have one more question guys and move on to fill afterwards because I think that's actually really good question. A lot of medics. Astor's. I've asked this many times. Eso Essentially, what it's asking is if you are developing any kind of a a poor, any innovation that is involves tech. You don't have any development. Background yourself now they did. I think you might be a bit different than that. But generally speaking, what do you do for from a non tech background? You want to execute your idea? Yes, it is that a decent deed that go out to people it because that still be, would. You do need to protect your idea. And I'm not about patents, and we go on a long term. But at least getting numbers. Poachers confidentiality agreement in place. They're free. There's lots of great resources for them, but no out and talk to people. They're they're They finally got a link there. I lived in contacting messages from different doctors. Anybody, any ideas you really developing now? Off See their little for business. But they're results of all medications like, uh, founder. It's 200. Or come where you can post be on a a sense of your idea to look for. You would be interested for free and doing you a spray founders you Then, if you want to just outsourcing goes places that work. Uh, people corral. And then you put a rough draft What it is you want to team. And then it's more like the world from that you do. It's a bid for it or final tubes. It's a really good on. Put a little bed. Onda Blues came in is that you may groups that do a digital scales course on food. Blue is a lot. They're out of Dodge Cates, our in Australia. He's written a great, but it's how I told myself some HTML in CSS to descend and medical decisions goals. Really? Byetta Quint. Then there. Are you allergic to sell? You can find a founder. You can outsource it under. It's a great types. Yeah, I think I think my two pennies. And that is also do you really need to build anything so you could test that ideas so much further neat than than you think you can buy prototyping by mocking things up. We see so so many people kind of, you know, spending a few 1000 lbs on building something which is not which is not really that great with kind of small, less money and you could have just you could have learned exactly the same amount by doing some really straightforward wire frame our cramps walk things. So, like in the early stages of an idea, all you need is to kind of show something to someone on Do get their feeling and get the feel of like, Is that something? Is that something I should take further? So do you need to build? And I think I like right now, I mean, so you know, my daytime. You know, I could develop stuff to sit to some extent, but not to kind of build commercial. Correct. So I can write, you know, sedation balance and, you know, mobile languages and stuff to it to a rudimentary level enough that I can take a prototype and kind of make a these Northpoint not one of something and which is allowed me to play with it a little bit more. And then you can have handed over to to people who actually do this for a living. And so it's always got a nice to do that because it means you can just get you 30. And it is it some of this stuff like as medics. If you're probably gonna in medics who kind of joining these kind of, you know, innovation. You get kind of talks, you probably will take team straightforward Page two mile, you know, Web site building stuff. Easier than you think. And, uh, s so that's a new age, guys, There's low code solutions. There is, uh, there's all kinds of stuff. There's a diver, elementary or builder dot Hey, I can build it up for you on DA Code Med waas. Uh uh. So you'll see Arent in may be on med Twitter, and he's the co founder of code. Nothing's a lovely person. Ah, as well. And you can see that from some of the streets to guys. Thank you so much for coming today. Both Avid and Ryan. I think that was an amazing set of talks. Uh, it's we don't feature MedTech enough. It's starting to happen now. I think it's amazing we should keep that trend going. Uh, we're gonna move onto, fails. Thank you guys so much and, uh, hope to see you again. Tribunal. See? Thanks. So thank you. Okay. All right, guys. So now we're moving on to, uh