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Mhm, you and I think you can maybe turn the palmer off. If you want it's up to you, yeah, I'll turn it off that's fine A real library yes, yeah that can happen near me, Yeah welcome everyone, and this is the first six part teaching series run by the Northern Arvid Foundation trainee Surgical Society, and we're in a new society and when we're keen to get as many people sort of them involved and encouraged to pursue a career in surgery. Um I'm my name's kyle walsh, and I'm the teaching the this year for the, for the society and so this is the first um of our our webinar series and we're delighted to have chris martin, mckee, uniphase, and martin limb and three current ct ones and to talk about the plan to court surgical training and starting august 22,000, and 23 so hand over the christmas and mckee. Thanks very much chris, okay. Thank you con, can everyone see the slides okay. Perfect. Thank you. Um Yep, so welcome everyone is, cause my name's chris, I'm one of the current ct ones work in Northern Ireland and I'm hoping to give you a bit of a guide to planning to court surgical training in Northern Ireland for 2023 So I've obviously been through the process myself over the past year, um but as well as that I did apply to England and scotland, so a bit of perspective on the different applications, if anyone has any other questions, um so just before we move on any further, I, I had a few polls just to get an idea of the audience. Um If we can maybe bring up the first poll, can we see the results always sit there, so maybe medical students okay and then the next one is just if you could just tell us where you're working at the minute are you based in northern Ireland or elsewhere, ok brilliant so mainly northern Ireland, but there's a few from uh England, scotland and wales, that's good uh and then finally, just if you can let us know if if you're applying this year and if northern Ireland ct one is your top choice ok brilliant, fair enough. I know, we've got a few medical students as well that's grant okay, so I'll move on to the next slide um So as Kyle said, we're the, this is the first event of the n i f t s s, the Foundation training surgical Society um So welcome to the first event, basically, we're a group of individuals consistent of medical students, mainly foundation doctors, court trainees um There's consultant input as well, um and basically the e. M. Is to improve resources and opportunities for junior doctors working Northern Ireland who are interested in pursuing a career in surgery. We are affiliated with the Royal College of surgeons of edinburgh um You can't join our see, I said as an affiliate member. I think it costs 70 lbs um no, by no means do you have to do that. I actually did last year. Um Here's just a few of the benefits from the website of joining as a member uh the two ones, I would probably highlight the main reason I joined where they actually run a very well recommended, well established Mrcs part the preparation course um Being an affiliate member gets a discount of that so I did that last year and as well as that they have a uh an online anatomy appropriate of course for the MRCs, which was also very useful. The other thing is that you get free access to this uh Auckland's anatomy, um which again, I find to be one of the most useful things for revising for Mrcs part B. In particular, basically this guy Auckland, I think he was a plastic surgeon, I think he might actually be dead now, but he made these videos where he went through all parts of the body um and sort of rotates around different areas and takes away layers and then put them back, which I found was really useful for linking different anatomical areas together, which can be really difficult just from the two D image, um So just a couple of reasons maybe to consider joining, so, anyway, the plan for the evening is first of all to give an overview of the application process for ct one in Northern Ireland historically and compared to some of the other application processes. Then we'll dial into ct one application for Northern Ireland this year 2023. We just touched on m s. R. A, which I'm sure you're all aware of is, has become another really important thing for this year. We are planning on running a separate event dedicated to the m s. Are a um so we'll give you some more information on that and look out for that in the next couple of weeks and then a bit about the interviews, So I know it probably seems like ages away, but it's it's not that far away um It's good to get a bit of an introduction at this stage as to what to expect then uh thankfully, I'm going to be joined by to the other ct ones, martin, Lynn, and um fraser, and they'll be able to just give you a bit of you know their perspective on how they find the application process and then hopefully the three of us will be able to answer as many of your questions has become so the first thing to say guys is. I know this is a really difficult time and the next few months are just really challenging with constant. It just pays like one thing after the other from applying you know waiting to hear back last year, the self assessment and you've got an interview, then preparing for the interview waiting for your offers, ranking your jobs, it's just constant and then on top of that, you're trying to keep going with your job tense. You trying to sit Mrcs exams, annoyed another exam, and that's all right, so, I really I don't and to you guys, and I'm just here to encourage you to keep going and hopefully you know it'll be worth it in the end, so just for a bit of background uh recruitment in northern Ireland is local recruitment, which is different from the system in the rest of the uk, which is referred to as the national recruitment cycle and on Northern Ireland, but there are other things so and for example if you're interested orthopedics, there's a uh an s. T one run through orthopedic program in scotland, and so for example you could apply to see t one in Northern Ireland, ct one nationally and st one in scotland, which is actually what I did in the end auction, so Northern Ireland has for the past few years, classically been local recruitment, but they did experiment for one year in 2021 with the part of the national recruitment cycle post Covid, uh but there were issues with filling the number of tree and a post, so, as of last year, we're back to local recruitment um recruitment is via the Oriole system, which I mean if you did f one f two in the UK, it's the same system, it's fairly straightforward anyway. Um If you go two vacancies now, and if you type in court surgical training, then the two options will come up in Northern Ireland on the UK system, so you can apply to both or either. Um If you click on the documents tab, it'll bring up a bit more information about the m. S. R. A. And personal specifications, so core training is competitive, and these are the numbers from last year for Northern Ireland, so for ct one, there were 363 applications for 30 a posts, so it's almost a 10 to 1 competition ratio, 115 were interviewed last year, and of that 37 offers were made, but the other interesting thing looking at that is that the lowest rank that was offered to post was 100 and eighth, so basically what that tells you is if you're if you're able to get an interview if, for those people who wanted to stay in Northern Ireland, almost all of the ones who were interviewed ended up getting an offer in the end and the other thing to take from that is you know if you get an interview and you don't get an offer, it's always worth considering that you might get that upgraded to an offer later on and I know it makes a couple of people this year who that happened to against it just for a bit of your own information. Um I actually didn't move this sort of thing last year and thought it would have been really useful. Um These are the the job rotations that we were offered this year, um no yes can change it, probably will change significantly for next year with the situation with daisy Hill in the matter Hospital, and things like that and it even changed for our year. Uh For example, I'm currently working in charman Orthopedics, not mckeldin. There's only two ct one posts there as options, but we have three uh ct one's working there at the minute um So, I'm not sure how how it's worked out, but you know another thing to bear in mind. There is, for example, if you're set on doing plastic surgery um It's useful to know there there's actually only to uh plastic surgery jobs every six months in the ulster hospital per year, So if you're you would have to accept your ct one offer for Northern Ireland without having ranked your jobs yet, So for example, if you had an offer for plastic surgery in England, you would have declined that offer and take Northern Ireland without knowing if you were actually gonna get a plastic surgery job um. So it's just it's useful to know those things there's always a bit of a risk if you're sat on doing a particular specialty, so this is just from the neck to website um to see their core surgery at the minute they're advertising there's 35 to 45 posts. Again that might change, they sat on the website that recruitment will be 100% biest on m. S. Are a to get your interview and then they published their that the interview gets or 27th of february to the third of march, so to be honest guys. If if you're keen on getting see to one post, I would put the date in the diary now um sort of slowly start to plan towards uh not interviewed yet. Because the problem with this whole process is, you're you're constantly drip fed little bits of information as you go along um um If you wait until your interviews confirmed, you might only leave yourself two or three weeks to prepare forth, so you kind of have to be positive um plan upstream just for a bit of context and this is the national recruitment process for this year, so to get an interview is 100% based on the msr a, starts the big change this year. Uh Self assessment is not involved until you get an interview and then you're invited to do a self assessment and at that point it only contributes 30% to your final mark, no, the Northern organ system. We're still not sure about a lot of the details. What we do know is that to get an interview is 100% yes, same msra, same as the national system. Beyond that, we actually don't know if there will be any element of self assessment. I sort of think that they're probably won't be um now you might think if the national system is using it, then Northern Ireland probably will, um but historically Northern Ireland like to do things a bit differently and say last year. For example, um once you got an interview in the national system, your final ranking a third of that was based on your self assessment score from the initial stage, and we assume that was going to be the same as Northern Ireland um but then we find out that it was just 100% based on your interview performance, So I say we don't know those details, but at the minute, they haven't given us any information to indicate that there'll be any form of self assessment, so the msr, a love it or hate it. This has become another really important exam for you guys, and I have no experience of doing it, so I can't give you any advice, but as I say, we're going to hold a separate event run by someone who did very well in the exam. It's go through things in a bit more detail what I do know is. It consists of two different parts, professional dilemmas which seems to be a sort of s. J. T type questioning and then clinical problem solving, which is, covers a broad range of medicine and surgery at a generic f two level bearing in mind, you know the same exam is used for radiology, psychiatry, g. P a. N. E. Um So it's not a surgical exam name to have produced this document here which I'd advise you all to read um And it gives a bit more information about how they are using the msrn. One of the things in it is that they've said here that they anticipate the results, will be released no later than the 14th to the 17th of february. It's just you know bear in mind that's only less than a couple of weeks before the interview did it, so yeah that's what I mean you could you could, uh you could only find out you have an interview a couple of weeks beforehand, and that's why you have to be sort of preparing in advance just to kind of illustrate that point, this is any meal we got last year, so 15th of february 2 weeks before the interviews. Um The first information we received about the format of the interviews burn in mind that the previous year was the national equipment cycle, so we had absolutely no idea what the Northern Ireland interview involved and you can see from the from this email, it's you know we weren't really much the wiser after this, This basically just all we knew was there were going to be three questions over 24 minutes, had no idea what the questions were going to involve uh. In the end, I'm sure the other guys would probably agree it was, it was much shorter than that. It was only 89 10 minutes. I know a couple of other people, I was speaking to you said the same and the actual format was quite similar to the national format in terms of questioning, um but that could change so then just to go into the interviews and a bit more detail. Last year, this was the sort of general format, although they said there was three questions. It was really only two parts uh the first part, again, this kind of mirrors the national interview style uh first part is usually management or, and, or ethics. On the second part, clinical, so you're you're management questions are uh things like you know what do you understand what the term, leadership or can you give me an example of when you were a good team player and then the ethics is you know, they give you a scenario so it might be something like your your theater and your registrar is about to start the theater case and you notice that they smell strongly of alcohol. How would you proceed. Chemical questions in the national interviews, they tend to be a bit more predictable in the format, um but it's similar in the, in the Northern Ireland interview, the national anyway, it's usually one trauma scenario and one non trauma assessment of an unwell surgical patient, but for both of those really most of the time, it's an a. B. C. D. E. Approach. Um And then maybe a few questions after that, but that could change as I say last year, we didn't know what to expect and some of the things we were kind of preparing where you know were they going to ask you specifically why do you want to do surgery in Northern Ireland, I still wouldn't rule that out as potential question because one of the problems they have is that there's a lot of applicants from Say England scotland who have no intention of actually come to Northern Ireland and that sort of questioning might help them better select the people that they want, so here's just a a brief slide on some some interview advice to get you started as I say will be hopefully, uh planning some further target, more intensive interview events closer to the time, but it's never too early to start with some of this stuff. Um It's the first thing is you know it's a virtual interview and meant to have confirmed it's going to be virtual again this year, so you have to, although you prepare as if it is a face to face interview and you want to be as professional as if you're standing face to face with the interview, There are certain things you need to do to prepare specifically for a virtual interview, So first of all you want to have a good set up, so you want to be doing interview in a messy room in the dark with the double chin and you know you want the laptop to be up at the right height uh. The lighting is important, so you know either sitting with a window behind your laptop with good light or you can buy a light, I actually bought one of the we, we ring light of amazon, I've actually got it up here now, so you know you can see the difference, if I turn it off now, that's what it looks like so that that sort of thing people spend a fortune on this stuff and I know people who spend hundreds on like the best webcam you can buy and all this sort of stage lighting and stuff you don't need all that, but um a little bit just helps it look a bit more professional and the other important thing is you need to practice in a virtual format, so you need to practice even if it it feels silly at first, but even if you have a mate in, in work, who you could practice just in work, go home, get a zoom meeting, and practice on zoom. As you're going to be for the interview, you need to practice talking and looking at the camera it's very tempting initially, just to uh you want to make eye contact um So whenever you're doing interview, you're you think you're making eye contact because you're looking at the person speaking, but an actual fact, it looks like this. Um When you practice with other people, you realize that things do make a difference, resource wise. Again, this is something you can spend thousands probably on. I did not buy all of these things uh. I don't know what the other guys did. Um Book wise, I got this generic medical interviews book which a lot of people have. I find it very good um I went through it. I I used the different examples, I used the different things they recommend for structuring answers, and just as another two I didn't get that Green Course Surgery interview book that probably everyone else had um I'm sure it is very good and I felt really guilty at the time for not getting it but I just I said to myself I wasn't gonna spend hundreds on all these things. Um Maddie body is another thing I used it's a like an online question bank um I think it was quite cheap and I probably would recommend it just as another resource for either revising yourself or if you're practicing somebody else, just a few uh Just example questions that you can use. I did pay to go on an interview course um uh In hindsight, it was maybe a bit of a waste of money, it was useful, but at the end of the day, all you're paying for mainly is for mock interview practice with more senior trainees, and there's other ways of doing that without him to pay that money. One thing I would really strongly recommend is this stars thing, so I actually only came across this after, I'd already paid for the interview course, but it's a free interview course that's run by uh surgical trainees in London um and I actually saw better yesterday. They posted to say that they're running it again this year and they'll be more information shortly, so I found it on twitter, I don't know if they're on any other platforms, but I definitely recommend uh checking out one night then for the management stations, I would recommend some specific preparation for the management type questions. Because unlike the kind of ethical and clinical scenarios where if you've got a good structure, you can make your way through almost any scenario, I can ask you very specific things in the management section, um you can get caught out and it can get you flustered, so a bit of sort of simple preparation can go a long way. I think with these ones, so I would recommend that you cannot go through your Cv, and you you know you're prepared. If someone asks you about your experience of audit of teaching of things like that that you've got a kind of half prepared 1 to 2 minutes speed and without having to think it all up on the spot. Some of the kind of really difficult questions, I've got to ask mainly in mock interviews um For example, tell me about the time that you witnessed bad leadership or can you tell me about the mistake that you made a clinical practice, so those sort of things you first of all, you don't want to be trying to think of an example in the spot, but also it's really difficult to answer that question, structure your answer to talk about a negative experience, and also demonstrate the capabilities that you that they're marking you on, um So, I did kind of go through common things like leadership, team work a few of those other types of questions and they kind of half prepare uh and answer, so that I wasn't I was kind of caught off guard. If I got to have something like that this camp framework can be useful for just for certain types of questions, so for example why do you want to do surgery. Um It can be useful to structure your answering that way, talk about clinical academic management, personal reasons, and then for the the ethical scenarios, this spies framework is is very useful and you'll come across it loads coasting the time, but basically it's thick info, patient safety initiative escalate and support, and you can basically use off any scenario, so for example that scenario of registry smells of alcohol, so I would initially I would want to seek some more information, I would in a nonconfrontational manner, try to establish whether the registrar is in fact intoxicated patient see if they would be my primary concern in this scenario, and if the registrar was in fact on the influence of alcohol, they would not be safe to be operating or to be working at all. In this scenario, I would take the initiative to uh to tactfully approach this with the registrar and raise my concerns and ensure that he does not continue to work and then he is safe transport to leave the hospital. I would escalate this then to the consultant in charge of the theater list and uh inform him that the registrars had to leave unexpectedly. I'm sure that there is uh someone with appropriate seniority to cover the theater list as a team player. I would be concerned about my colleagues well being, and I would want to explore this in more detail to to figure out if there's any underlying cause for this behavior and offer my support. Um. I would also encourage him to speak this educational supervisor and ensure that this event needs followed up something like that and clinical practice. As I say it's nearly eight e, uh you'll get so sick of doing this, I'm sure the other guys will agree, um but you'll get very slick at it and people sort of, tell you you should be able to run through your a. D. Assessment in like one or two minutes, you do you get better on the more you do it. One other important thing I think for the kind of uh practice is your differentials, how to structure your differentials. It's a very important you know common thing, Get asked what's your differential diagnosis and it can catch people off guard. Um There's different ways of doing it the way I personally sort of gravitated towards is you start off with the one or two most important or most common things and then with everything else you try and group or categorize and give one or two examples of each, so, for example, a patient with the POSTOP following total hip replacement, who's hypoxic and tachycardic could say the most important differentials. The real light in this scenario would be a post operative pulmonary embolism or a POSTOP pneumonia. Other differentials include respiratory causes such as pneumothorax, empire, a trauma or a tilak texas, cardiac causes such as an arrhythmia or my cardio infarction, or systemic infective causes such as for wind, infection or other sources like urine, so something like that where you just grip them. Give examples of H rather than just trying to uh to make a big list or starting off with something weird and wonderful, so just to go back then to the timeline, so applications are open at the minute and they close on the first of december as I understand after you've applied, you'll then get an invite to apply for Msra um and it looks as if the mSra will be early to mid january and then the name to Northern Ireland interviews will be and the february started march another thing to bear in mind. In terms of interview practice, um some people apply elsewhere purely for the interview practice. Uh One of the advantages in northern Ireland is it's usually the last interview uh so like for me, for example, I to other interviews before the Northern Ireland interview um Now that's the pros and cons, to that, yes, it's good to have uh you know real real experience of the interview under time pressure, under that pressure, um but the disadvantages are you know, every application is another piece of work, they were also separate self assessment. Uh Every interview required its own sort of specific preparation, so it is something to consider especially if you're you know having to sit the msra on potentially mrcs and things like that as well, um but but it is something to to consider okay so look that's the, that's the end of the presentation part of this session, um I have two of the other ct ones martin and um you've kindly joined us this evening, so I was maybe just going to let them introduce themselves um If they have anything they want to share with their experience of the application process and then hopefully the three of us together should be able to help answer any of your questions, so I don't know you and maybe do you wanna go ahead. Yeah. Uh It's my camera working there yeah Grand um so High yeah, so I did the same as chris, so I applied to National Court Surgery uh scotland st one trauma, orthopedics and then also uh ct one here, So you like you say, there's lots of different all the applications need like different bits of information, so it's important that you really hone in on what each application is asking for um and something else you said, Chris was the thing about keeping an eye out for offers and things so this is what actually happened to me, so I got the interview, I did the interview and then didn't get a job, didn't get a job offer, so then I just thought that was it and then maybe I think maybe a month later. Um The application the job offer came through in my junk mail, which I found and when the offer comes through, you only get 40 hours to accept or deny that, so, I think, I found that after 24 hours, so it is always kind of important to make sure that all the emails that you might get through from Oriole or kind of any other parties associated with it are going through to your actual inbox and not your junk mail because that could have been very kind of unfortunate with that and so yeah just really really trying to sort out if you ever have things went to your junk mail well. Thanks again, martin giovanna hi, can you guys hear me now so uh I would say I've applied for national and the Northern Ireland interview um like Chris, has mentioned you know, the general format is quite similar um touching on what um has mentioned um if you applied for something else and uh there might be a hold um option on oriole and uh at the time, I was quite tempted to stay next to uh so so apply for general practice um and if you hold and accept that offer, you will automatically. Um You know, deny yourself the opportunity to uh do ct one so just bear that in mind and uh you know the whole option is not actually hold its except, and hold. Thank you very much yeah, that's a really important point, I think it's it does become a bit of a gamble it with these things, doesn't it, you're sort of you're guessing you're kind of turning down an option, hoping that you're gonna get something else because you can never have both at the same time. Mhm, and um I think I think the offer for the Northern Ireland ct one came pretty late. It was like in june or something like. Um If you you know, if you're already doing something else like I was doing a trust great job, I've already had like an extension to my job I was having you know different plans uh in place, so uh it can be quite daunting and you just have to kind of hold your breath and hope it pans out. I suppose yeah um anything else guys or will we answer some of the questions. Yeah, okay, yeah, if anyone has any questions feel free, dad them into the chat function um So, I'll, I, if I that's all right, I'll ask a question and either chris martin or you and answer I started applying to Co tropical Training this year and I didn't realize until it opened up the application that it was actually blank space and questions. Um Have you ever applied any yeah applications that used blank space and have you any advice uh. Um I've personally not um but um I suppose you can just try and list you're kind of cv you know, I'm assuming that they would, they would ask questions based on your cv and just try and list them in a in a way where you would so to talk you know talk about it a little bit more not you know, Kyle wash has presented this, you know, perhaps adding uh what you've learned from it, try and make it a little bit more personal would be my advice just a little not, I think the northern Ireland is an austere, did have black spaces am, I right in that one of them did any way either the northern Ireland one or the national one, but the bottom line with the days that I don't think it really matters. Um you know and I heard people talking about, like for s t three applications coming up again, there's like a blank space thing, but people are sort of saying that they don't even really look at thoughts and yeah. I mean your your interview is 100% based on m. S. R. A. And beyond that, it's as far as we know, it's 100% based on the interview. Um So you know those things are usually like it's a max of like 100 or 200 words, maybe for each, or something like that. Um you just kind of put down, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Um It's I don't think it's something that's important yeah the thing I would just add in is if if there's a blank space, you just want to make it really simple and like easy to go through, so for if there's a blank space and it's a list kind of your audit, do eye involvement, then you just do like the title of what you did and then like because you can add bullet points into these blank spaces so just say like close look um where you presented it and then so you say who presented it, and then because the one of the consultants told me it was imagine that this is a consultant has been operating all day. He's come home. He's got to crying children and then you have to spend an hour going through these applications, so they just want to you just want to make it really easy and straightforward for them to just take off points and say yeah they've got that they're, they don't want to be kind of trolling through paragraphs of information uh. Thank you so much. Um I'm not sure if you can see the chop function there, chris, and Ashlyn. He was asked a question, I'll just read it right there so uh just to confirm if you apply for England scotland and you get an offer, their offer will commit before, n. I, so you will then need to decline them stroke gamble, hoping to get an n. I. Offer, so usually the Northern Ireland offers are the last ones to come out box. Usually, there's a deadline, so you've got all your offers at once and then there's a deadline for um choosing which one you're gonna put as your first choice, but what we are sort of saying about gambling is then the next thing is beyond that um for well, one aspect of it is for Northern Ireland, you haven't ranked your jobs yet, so you'll have to choose whether or not you're going to commit to Northern Ireland before you know if you're getting that plastic surgery job or whatever, but also if you don't get an offer for Northern Ireland and you're hoping you're gonna get upgraded, you'll have to decline your offers for other places to have to have to be in with the chance of getting an upgraded offer. Can, I ask about the timing of job offers as well, and when do you find out exactly what job we've got because we serve people with applying from um the uk, maybe they haven't you know been here before and they're gonna have to start looking to rent an accommodation and what sort of time do you find out what job you've got everywhere where you're going to be prettily, it is the short answer. Um I think it was like Crystal june, was it yeah uh It was like two something it leads you, like you know a month, a month and a half to two prep, um which is not long, yeah, so I think you you get sent out the options for the jobs I think like end of april kind of early, may that sort of time frame and then you have to rank them all and send them back and then it's another month or so before you find out, I just checked there, I got my number 31st of me, so I think I had two months it's pretty slow, Nimda is pretty slow. General yeah, are there any other questions, I wanted to ask sorry quickly. When do you find out, then what you do for your year to a. C. S. T. Like, do you re rank your jobs, then in court to anyone for the following year and like does that go based on your interview from previous, what way does it work, think it does yeah, yeah so you rank your CST one jobs and then you find out them and that's solely based on your interview score, and then you re rank the jobs. Again you want for cst two in is it maybe march or april time and that again is done on your ranking from your interview, so essentially at once you've done your interview, everything comes from there. Uh I think the timescales sorry, I think the timescales for cT one jobs and c t two jobs are pretty similar because I remember last year, um When we were waiting for our job offers, there was another guy in the year above and he was in the same position, so I think it's you know you don't get you don't find out any earlier. It's still probably about managing time and and is it mandatory that you do like over the course of cs. You want to you do a year of general is that still monetary for Northern Ireland, yeah, so you have each year you have to do a six month general surgical job on a six month uh specialty job. Um The one thing though with that is it seems this year vascular surgery is considered a general surgical job, which I think is different to previous years. I'd maybe clarify that if you know if you're going to rank it, but it comes up on the system is general surgery brackets, vascular, um but yeah, so for example, all three of us did in orthopedics or ent, so we'll all be moving to a general surgical job in february, okay, do you have to sit or send, take both placements and in the same hospital or do you have to move between c. T one, c t two, big enough you can do either you can't stay in the same place or you can move. Um I'm moving from all the garden to belfast in february, um but there's nothing to say you can't stay in the same place. You can stay in the same place for the whole two years. As long as you're doing one specially job on general surgical job, okay is there any other questions in the chocolate, no, I don't think so and anyone any final questions and just let everyone know the Stars interview practice, I sent a link into the chapped from their twitter page um Just so that people know if they wanna get interview practice, they can go to it. When more information comes like next in the chat, Thanks very much yeah, it was, I really would recommend that one it was free as well okay guys. We'll be we'll be wrap it up there then. Um so let me uh final remarks If they want to make, I just want to say, Thanks for Thanks Martin and you in for uh joining us this evening, um It's really useful to have to other people's opinions on stuff as well. Um Thank you Emma and Kyle for organizing um So as I say that's our first event, um we do have a few others in the pipeline uh Look out for m s are a preparation event. We'll have interview stuff close to the time as well okay, enjoy the rest of your evening, thanks, Thanks guys.