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Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to this faculty development series session. Um My name is Nicola Brennan and I'm an associate professor in Medical Education Research at the University of Plymouth and I'm going to be facilitating today's session. Um II just have a few slides that I'm going to run through first. Um And then we'll move on to the um the panel discussion. Um Can people see those slides? Ok. Yeah. Right. Um So, so just to run through quickly, the aim of the series, the aim of the series is to prepare future supervisors for the challenges of becoming and being a supervisor in clinical education research. Um The sessions are aimed at new and early career supervisors of masters phd and post doctoral research. Um And I think Ailene actually who's on the panel today, Ailene kind of was the kind of um founder of this series. Um I think we strongly felt that whilst universities provide kind of how to guides and you know, lots of information on policies and practices, there was nothing really out there in terms of the kind of, you know, the nuts and bolts and, you know, understanding from other people's experiences, how you deal with um issues that may arise when you're supervising um clinical education um researchers or, or students. Um So, so the learning outcomes of this session are to be aware of the different challenges of supervising in clinical education research and to have identified what areas you will need to develop in order to further your clinical education research, supervisory skills. Um And that you will have learned from the experiences of other clinical education supervisors. Um So there's six sessions in the whole series. Today's session is about getting the best out of a doctoral student or post doctoral researcher. Um And the format of the sessions, they are very much informal. It's lunchtime chat. Um It's an opportunity for you to ask questions. We strongly encourage you to ask us questions. If, if there's particular areas you want the discussion to be focused on, please do ask questions, please put them in the chat. Um We're also going to invite you all to the stage um so that you can contribute, um you know, actually speak and engage as well as putting stuff in the chat. So please do get involved. Um We'd really appreciate it and, you know, you'll get more out of it if we're focusing on topics that you really need information on or help with. Um So it's an opportunity to contribute experiences both good and bad. Um And just to let you know, the sessions are being recorded Um So today's session, then we have uh four panel members. Um We have Jill Vance who's professor of Medical Education at the University of Newcastle. We have Professor Gerry Gormley, who is the Chair of Simulation and Clinical Skills in the Center for Medical Education at Queens University in Belfast. We also have Dr Aileen Barrett who's an academic lead of the research unit at the Irish College of General Practitioners. And we also have Dr Tristan Price who is an associate professor in clinical Education here at the University of Plymouth with me. Um So I'm just gonna stop sharing those slides now. Um And I'm going to hand you over to the panel and ask the panel to briefly introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about their supervisory experience. Um I will go alien first because you're closest to me on the screen. Hi, everyone and Nicola, thanks again for organizing today. And as Nicola said, the, the aim of this particular series was for people. And I will say absolutely selfishly at my, my stage in my career where I was trying to sort of move from being the supervised phd student to supervising others and working out. You know, we ask people to pay it forward all, all the time and to ask people to do things and what were we giving to the people we were asking to supervise. So I thought, you know, what this is the space that people want to talk a little more freely about the, I suppose, the, the nuts and bolts of being a supervisor, the challenges that aren't just about the, the guidance from a university or about the rules and procedures. These are about actually how do we support each other when we're supporting trainees and potentially those trainees who have any kind of difficulty, you know, be it just academic or otherwise. Um So for me, this is a really supportive forum and it's one in which an Tristan was just saying earlier, it's really important that this is a forum where you start to recognize people who can support you. Um and that we all share those experiences as well. So in terms of phd supervision, I've been involved in co supervising an MD and just started vising another phd this year as well. So really trying to, to get myself into a zone where I can be the lead um phd researcher. So I've leaned on pretty much everyone in this panel at some stage and continue to do so for that support and guidance. So I hope you'll get that out of today's workshop as well. Brilliant. Thanks, Ailene. Um Tristan. Hi everyone. Yeah, and, and again, absolutely delighted to, to join on this session. Um So yeah, I might, I work as Nicholas said, I work er with Nicola in er in Camera in Plymouth um on, on things in clinical education, work for sustainability. Um And I also uh run the clinical education uh masters and PG cert program, supervise lots of masters dissertations. Um But I've recently supervised my first uh phd Depletion as, as dos as a, as a Director of Studies. Um And, and I think I've, I've, I've come from, not from the clinical education background and I think I've developed a really a real appreciation. So what I think was a fairly, it was a long journey because often in, I think that I've got an appreciation for what is quite unique. I think in, in, in our field, in that we were often dealing with busy professionals with other aspects to their professional lives rather than just writing P hds full time. Um And so I've developed a real appreciation I think of uh of, of some of these unique challenges, but I'm by no means a, a phd supervising expert at all. As I said, I just, just finished my first one to recently to, to completion and supervise another phd student with Nicola, both in the areas of, of, of uh of um professionalism and remediation in those kind of areas. So it's, it's really great to be here and I really look forward to learning a lot from this session as well. Thanks Tristan uh Jill. Hello, everyone. Um Yeah, so I am a clinician by background. Um I'm a pediatrician. I've actually just come from clinic. So my interest is in pediatric all. And actually I entered the the world of, of clinical education just over 10 years ago. So I've had a fairly recent journey, actually developing my own skills in supervision of masters and doctoral students. And I really wish there was an opportunity to meet others as we're doing as part of this program back then. So in terms of who I supervise master's students, often undergraduate, sometimes postgraduate trainees who are undertaking a master's program. But but in terms of doctoral students, I've probably got two main groups of, of doctoral students, one who are following academic pathways, either that they've applied for and been successfully awarded a fellowship from one of the main funders or undertaking a doctoral program as part of their academic clinical fellowship, the other group of doctoral students I have may be following alternative pathways. So often staff members who are doing um a doctoral program on a less than full time basis alongside either their clinical or, or, or teacher commitments. So I guess the common theme is that my doctoral students have other commitments and therefore, as a supervisor and managing an individual in the round who is a teacher who is a clinician as well as pursuing a program of research. Brilliant thanks Jo Jo. And last but not least we have Gerry. Uh Thank you so much. Indeed. Uh Nicola by my name's Gerry. Um uh Yeah, I'm a GP here over in Northern Ireland um and also a chair in simulation at Queens So my kind of research interest is around exper learning through simulation and how we can get people to a gently learn better and change the world around them. Um, in terms of my supervisory experience, I've got a little banked over the years, I suppose. Uh And, and, and actually, it's nice Jill for you to reflect on the kind of the spectrum of who we supervise. And I know today we're gonna focus on doctoral and postdoctoral um which you have some experience for sure. Uh But also, you know, you know, supervising others outside that, you know, students uh one off projects uh and um interestingly supervised students outside uh med ed and drama and creative writing and actually lots to learn from the different worlds. Um But sometimes it's very similar what we do and we'll hopefully explore those uh areas in, in due course uh today. Thank thanks for inviting me along today, Nicholas. Brilliant. Thank you everyone. So, so, so that's the panel. Um Does anyone have any specific questions, anyone in the audience have any questions or any particular areas that they want to focus on? I can't see anything in the chat, um Can't see anything in it. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna kick start with one of the case studies. So, so we've developed a couple of case studies to um about phd students who are going through particular difficulties. So what I'm going to do is read out the case study um and ask members of the panel to like, tell us how they would, would deal with this issue. Um And please feel free to, to jump in. So, so I'm going to introduce the first one. So Sean is in his third year of his phd, he has completed his data collection and his analysis but is struggling to write up his phd. Um He procrastinates a lot and continuously produces detailed plans containing writing objectives and deadlines. Um But he doesn't manage to meet them. So how would you deal with that kind of a, a, an issue? Um I'm just gonna open it up to the panel. Please feel free to, to jump in. No, I'll, I'll start on the cliff. II. So, um so II think this is a, this is a huge uh I think it's a really great case study to, to bring up. I think, I think it's really common. It's just sort of jumped in there. Cos it just occurred to me there's a strategy that I, that I, that was both taught to me as a phd student when I had this problem. But I've also uh then used with, with, with phd students. I'm with master's students actually is that I think sometimes the planning of big chapters is a really daunting thing and a phd and there's some kind of like mental block to get going on them. And I'm a massive fan of chunking writing. And so in this particular case study. It's sort of obviously at the, er, at the stage of writing up but also really early on in the phd when it's like that pen to paper thing is I wanna say, I said, when my supervisor said to me and I said to other students is, is write 500 words, you definitely know, have to be there and aren't gonna go anywhere and 500 words seems kind of manageable. It's kind of like, you know, it could be a morning's work and if you say, what are those 500 words, even if it's just a tiny, tiny bit of your write up or a tiny bit of a literature or recently a, a stu a student who's doing, um, realist work to write no more than two pages on what realism is as a methodology. And that doesn't seem quite as daunting. So I think that's one way is to kind of chunk the writing and, and maybe like that, I think that chapter thing is quite daunting and you can end up being endless tweaking and worrying as opposed to actually getting into the writing. Bit of like, here's a chunk of writing, just write and, and I think that that's anything you can do to get that pen on paper or, or, you know, fingers on keyboard, er, is, is a good go. Yeah, I agree. Tristan, I think making it a more manageable kind of task and you know, 500 words, definitely just seems more achievable, doesn't it? Than, you know, 100,000, which is the size of the thesis? Any anyone else, any thoughts on that? I like this case study actually, Nicola, because I could see myself in this, in terms of procrastination. Actually, I suppose. So, learning from my own experience, I try to share that with others and I suppose perhaps that one first point I want to make to some degree is it shouldn't get to this point. Or I try to encourage that it by that by year three, that there's a, a need to suddenly write your thesis. So the, the, the first piece of advice I like to share with my, my students is write. As you go along, set up the chapters, the structure they can change, but set up the chapters as you go along, start creating those small amounts of, of, of writing. Because when it's fresh in your mind, put it into the folder that's labeled with such and such a chapter. When you come back to it in year three, you might be really pleasantly surprised that actually there's already quite a lot of text within that folder, that chapter, which means that actually it's about shaping and polishing rather than building from the bottom up. So that would be one of my points to, to, to share. Yeah, absolutely. I think writing as you go along is really, really important, isn't it and you feel like you've kind of climbed a bit of that hill rather than getting into your third year. And it's like, oh my God, the panic, then you have to write so much. You feel like you have to write so much. Sorry, go ahead. No, no problem. Eileen if you want to jump in there. Yeah. No, II really great case. Uh And by the way, this can happen often. Um So the big thing is not, you know, this, this, we've seen this before. Um And there's certainly many ways that we can help support that individual. And I think really a Jill's comment is like, I would have hoped to have seen this come earlier and I suppose, I think if you step back uh that supervision, it's highly, highly relational and you would hope that you have all those uh efforts, avoidances that, that, that you have got a safe space to say, you know, um I'm struggling here, you know, perfection is the ending of good. I just can't get that perfect first sentence and I just keep putting it off. Uh And I suppose it's that reality of being able to speak about that and not to try and hide it a little bit and I, I'm going to get to it, but actually to be open about where, where are the struggles and hope together that you both can find, I kinda shared meaning of why WW where, where is the kind of blocks on this and how we can help you. And in terms of feedback, I think feedback uh as ever should be tailored. Is it just big high level comments you want at this stage? You know, are you in the right direction or is it, you know, is it down to the next level of, you know, um, you know, more detailed reviews of what of what you want and the reality is absolutely right. Tristan just get words on paper, you know, II always think it's like, you know, potters putting clay in their spin wheel, just get it down, we'll shape it together, but just start that process. Um, and I'm always reminded by Ernest Hemingway's tip on writing because ultimately, you're trying to find that student to develop their own voice and their own style and everybody's different thankfully, which is great, but really trying to tune into what's their way. Um, and the tip by Ernest Hemingway is that when the, when your writing goes really well, stop because you're really keen to get back to it compared to that. I just need this off my desk. I can't see this anymore. It doesn't work all the time, but sometimes that little thing I know has helped some, some students, uh sort of try to navigate that, that block. Yeah, I II, we Tristan and I went on a writing retreat there lately and one of the attendees shared this leaving when you take a break to get a cup of tea or whatever, leave, leave yourself mid sentence so that when you come back, you've got something to start on straight away. And I think all these little tips and strategies for, for writing are really important. Um, Ailene, do you want to jump in there? So it just to actually extend those with a couple of practical kind of thoughts as well. And exactly that, you know, the hopefully the workshop that we did two weeks ago around what to do with the first meeting. And you hope that, you know, you're kind of setting those writing assignments kind of as you go, I think for anybody doing a phd by publication that's built into it. So hopefully by year three, as you say, Gerry, you'd have probably seen a piece of paper at that stage or the draft of if that's the requirement, I always do actually ask students and advise them to use their ethics application to really get in on the hood, particularly letter review. I'm like, why would you do it twice, you know, try and really make an effort with when you're putting this protocol together to really try and drive a lot of that letter review work at that stage and make sure you're not leaving yourself, you know, um you know, extra work to do so try and do as much as you can at that stage. Um As you said, Jo I think having somebody told me I was a year one of my phd and really advised me to have a word document that was already formatted with my chapters just that I had something visual to say, this is what this will look like at the end. This is, this is what the outcome will look like. And then as you say, as you have a file for each of those sections in your word documents. And once one is done, you can almost kind of populate it into the full thesis. And you kind of have that sense of achievement as you go along with every, every chapter, as you see this kind of coming to your life with the writing retreat as well. One of the things I did with two of Gerry's colleagues, actually, we were all kind of trying to finish up around the same time. We actually did a little mini writing retreat, but actually built it around a little bit of a social event. So everybody traveled down here to me and we sat at my kitchen table for a day in different parts of it. But we agreed at the beginning of the morning, what we were going to achieve by the end of the day. And because we said it out loud to each other, we had to do that by the end of the day. And then our reward was every two hours that we had a coffee break with something nice and that we went for dinner that evening, but we actually made a day of it. That wasn't a five day writing retreat because we weren't at that stage where we could have focused on that. But it felt like we had something tangible. So the idea of just having a writing body or again, somebody with whom you are kind of creating a plan. But as you say, trust in chunking it, that, you know, one of us was going to write their introduction, one of us was going to do whatever it was that we had small achievable, realistic expectations for what we could do in a day without staring at the screen as well. So I think those were kind of more of my practical ways of, of supporting students who again, hopefully you get to them a bit earlier, but if you're really stuck, just giving them practical tips as to what they can do to get out of that. Um that rut, I've got quite a few questions and comments. Yeah, just you. No, not at all actually, but I just wondered whether we wanted to. I mean, I think there's a number here actually, I just want to pick up on Danica's one actually because it's about finding supervisor vulnerability helpful. I think that's a really important point and it kind of links to what Gerry said about safe spaces and I'm just wondering if maybe Gerry could comment a little bit more about how do you make that space safe and so that students can be vulnerable. Um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. II you know, and actually partly drawn upon my world of simulation that often we see people saying this is a safe space but actually it's not um it's, it's a fragile concept. Um We, it's highly relational and you have to build those levels of trust and knowing that it's OK not to meet the deadline sometimes and it's perhaps o and it's OK to offer why there is a struggle. Remember that um you know, doctoral students in our research, we get very attached to what we do, you know. Um And, but also, you know, real life things happen. Uh And maybe there are reasons for that and obviously, it's creating um I suppose that rapport but, but also it, you know, uh uh you need to make sure that, yeah, that, that you work with them and of hopefully allow them to at least come forward with, you know, why, why they think there might be issues uh or challenges in, in perhaps not meeting these guidelines. And I, and I think it's again, speaking back to Ailene, that idea of the social side of this, the collective, you know, that, that, that idea that's I'm not on my own, you know, that other doctor students are finding this difficulty as well, at least gives you a sense. Well, you know what we're here together and you know, we can hopefully make a sense forward as well. Brilliant. Thanks Jerry. Um I'm just going to move on to. Yeah, and the Heide comment kind of links to that as well that sometimes there's a fear of embarrassment to yourself or not getting it right. So hopefully that kind of that those ways or techniques to make that space actually safe instead of saying it's safe um would help. Um I'm just gonna flick on to Jason who's got a specific question about, um, supervising ACF S. Did you post earlier as well? Um. Oh, no, I, do you want me to, to, to say it? Yeah. Fantastic. Ok. See you. Hi, Jason. Sorry. I'm very well. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, this is great. I really, um, I'm really appreciating the, the tips and the discussion so far. So II think I know most people that have Jason, I'm a psychiatrist and a clinical education researcher and, um, I guess my, I really appreciated Jill's kind of naming something that I guess I'd always kind of known, but hadn't put into words before the challenges that we have in different groups of people that we supervise, particularly those who, II guess are more career academics who are, er, you know, have gone through undergraduate, postgraduate, you know, train them straight into their phd versus those who are much more senior clinicians who have kind of found their way into a clinical education phd. And I'm not expecting an easy or quick answer here. But I guess I can find myself, I supervise one of both groups and I'm very early new to it and I'm, you know, kind of finding my way and how much to what approaches should be different or not. Um And being aware that particularly for the senior kind of clinical person, I supervise life gets in the way their colleagues go off sick. Their phd inevitably takes a kind of backseat to many, many other pressures and how to best support them or being understanding. But at what point do you reflects that actually, we've still got to kind of keep progressing it ideally in, despite those challenges and it's quite a difficult balance to work out how to intervene. I just wondered if people had that experience or how they approach that type of scenario. Who wants to go first? Uh I'm hubby or uh uh Tristan. Uh hi Jason. Uh I do think I've met um read work. Fantastic, great, great to see you. Um Yeah, that, that, yeah, II totally reliving uh that uh shorter uh sort of synopsis you give. Yeah, look, these are realities, aren't they? And I suppose the key thing is to be able to produce the conditions where people can say this to you. Um And I suppose it's not shying away from those or, you know, I'm so busy that I just not even answer my emails, but hopefully it's that again. Fostering that, that, that, that I'm with you. But ultimately the student, um, it, it's their phd, they control the destiny of it. They have hopefully, you know, been invested. If they got skin in the game, it's theirs. And, and you know what, sometimes there comes a point or threshold point where hold on. We need to see, you know, we tried our way to adopt around this but maybe we need to think of other ways, maybe take a pause in the phd. Um Again making sure that you really keep diligent. Um I on the process because I know that our university processes around doctoral students can be really rigid. Um um So it's really trying to work with that and reality it is that, you know, hopefully together, you help that student make that decision that actually these things are surmountable or actually is it, is this never going to get easier? And sometimes P hds can take, you know, over many years. Um And, and, and, uh, but I suppose that's, it's all you can do is just create a condition for that person to say it's hard. I'm gonna try and navigate it, but hopefully together will say there's a point where maybe we need to take some major steps. But, but like I'm here with you. Um And I suppose that this was what I we call the balcony view. It's not you and me. It's us together looking at this together and how we can maybe hopefully move a way forward. So I probably haven't answered your questions. Yes, but there you go. No, I think that's super helpful Jerry. And can I, can I come in on the back just on, on the back of what both? But Gerry was saying then? And that this is what you're describing. Jason is I have very limited phd experience. What you're describing is probably the exact main experience I had supervising a seven year part time phd with four interruptions or something. Um And, and I think absolutely agree with Gerry and just to kind of flesh out what that looked like in practice for me was a point at which I just had to say that it was just, it wasn't getting anywhere because, and it, it absolutely, it is different because often this, these type of students, they, they have good careers. It's not, you know, it's not, there are other stuff going on their lives and there, there's, it's, there's no, there's no kind of, there comes a point where putting more pressure on or trying to set more deadlines um is, isn't uh isn't working and doesn't, isn't going to work. Um And so what I found was to, to keep meetings, but just change those meetings. So, so, so rather than a, you know, OK, it doesn't matter that the chapter deadline has not been met. Can we still meet? Can we have a coffee and the questions that we went back to, were, we went back to the, why are you doing your phd questions? And do you, do you actually need it? And you have to like, it's all, it's hard as a supervisor because you're invested in this and you, I'd put at some point I put, yeah, this is like four or five years in of a, of a, of a phd that kept on getting interrupted as part time anyway. And at some point, I had to just go, they might not finish and once I'd accepted, they, they might not finish. And that, that coaching, coaching, I have a phd was, was a potential option and we discussed what the other options are, what would happen about potentially with some of the existing research doing um and MFI instead and actually just working with them and, and I think it was Gerry Encad that quite nicely, that idea of looking at it from the balcony cos we just started to look at this in terms of the options, the student actually then went on to come back on board. But there was a good 56 month gap where the only conversations we had were those kind of conversations um due in in interruptions. So, yeah, let letting go at that point and viewing it was, was, was really tough but really necessary. So, I mean, I, I'd agree actually and, and to some degree, my reflection J Jason is that it's, it's less perhaps about seniority of the individual. But the fact that they have other commitments which are draws on their time so that can apply where, you know, it, it's a very clinical, uh, uh related problem, isn't it? And I think, I mean, I think Gerry's point about it not being your thesis is something that II would raise my head to say it was something that's something I have learned along the way that it is their piece of work. It's their baby. I'm supporting it, but it's their piece of work. And actually once I accepted that it was much easier, much, much easier. I think in relation to, I think there's honesty. So I think Tristan's point about having those meetings, us not showing away knowing this is a difficult box to say, well, actually, I'll come back to it myself because I've got other things, you know, we're all busy, we can be doing lots of other things. But making the time to have the meetings, the format, the content, the nature of those meetings might differ, but at least to have those times where there is that two way conversation. I just perhaps just a ara to the point might be that, that an opportunity, you know, a, a car, you know. So where is this piece of work going? Where can we, you know, so what can we, so how can we share it? Can we think about preparing a, you know, you know, getting to a point where there's an element of this work which we can be sharing at a conference at a meeting so that you're then part of a community of individuals who are also advancing knowledge, you know, you know, gaining that momentum by virtue of seeing how others, where others are talking to others and so on. So perhaps just thinking of being, you know, some other strategies that allow that individual to get back on the train that says, I'm actually moving forward. Brilliant. Thanks, Joe. Could I pop in just for a second? Obviously, Jason, your question struck a chord. Um And I II think it's really and thank you for, for raising it. Um I two things that I've learned over time. Um But if I could go back, Jason, the two things I would do different would be to have, you know, you, your growth as supervisors to have that role, that mentor, um you know, II and perhaps you do and, you know, great. Um But, but, you know, certainly that's been the biggest thing in my career is co, you know, cos supervising uh particularly people who have banked a lot of experience and are wise and, and a lot of sage advice and that has been really instrumental. Um you know, all being well, you know, most P hds will progress and doc doctor uh thesis will progress. But, you know, it's the small number that take the majority of time. Um And that's why you really need to delve into experience. And that, and the other thing um that only would add to that is, is probably right at the very, very, very beginning is to, is to really ensure that that student um has, you know, had a good opportunity to think ahead. I always encourage him to talk to other doctor students, maybe are clinical academics and just to get some sense, not just me because I always feel guilty, but, you know, you're going to be pushing yourself too much, but actually, you know, talk to others because it is, it can be hard, but also it could be hugely rewarding. Um And I suppose at that early stages to is to get that other opinion from others, you know, so as they sort of sense make and, and hear some of the works and all and realize that, yeah, these are, these are sometimes part of a doctoral journey, but there are always hopefully ways to na get them. I'm, I'm totally with you Gerry on the value of the team and I'll just pop to the chat whether our delegates, whether our attendees similarly are either part of teams um or supervisor of the team because I think it'd be good to hear of others experience. But I totally agree. Um I think that's a very important um approach to effect of supervision. I was just going to add to that as well to say, I think that is the critical part that, you know, certainly where you're part of a supervisory team, if everybody isn't on the same page, that, that does make it quite a bit more challenging. Um, you know, and, and you're trying to have that mentor role and um or maybe you don't see others as quite having the same thing. So I think that spread of expertise and wisdom within that team is very critical to being able to support that student. And as you say, Tristan, the experience to know when this actually isn't gonna go and, and when we need to actually put a full stop on things as well, because I think for me, I would find that really difficult right now and just to reflect, II, always my mantra er for, for supervisor cos I think and maybe we might to due course talk about supervisory teams and maybe where there's conflict. I know there's a case coming up, which is a really good case. Um I, but my, my rule of thumb is that um with some of the best supervisor experiences have been just friends that I work with and said we should do something together and I suppose that reflects around that, you know, your values are bound together, you, you know, you've got good rapport uh because it, there can be challenges. Um and I suppose that sense of making sure that you, you have a good connection with someone um, um, from, from hopefully the beginning. Yeah. Absolutely. Because it's, it's a long relationship, isn't it? It's, um, minimum three years. It could be seven or eight as Tristan has described. Um, and, or longer even, um, they're all really important factors. I'm going to move on to one of the other cases that we've, we've prepared for today. Um, I think I'll go for the, the, the C, which is around, um, you know, difficult relationships. So, so Jack is in his second year of his phd and he feels he's making good progress with, with data collection. However, his relationship with his primary supervisor is, is fraught with difficulties. Um His primary supervisor is often too busy to meet regularly or provide feedback because he's got lots of other research commitments and when they do meet, he's very authoritarian in his supervisory style and puts very unrealistic expectations on Jack. Um And so we could bring in its about the, the supervisory team and difficulties in there as well. Um Anybody who want to comment on that one, how would you deal with that? Seems to be a such a mismatch there, doesn't there in expectations? I II don't mind coming in again. And this, this, this is definitely something I've, I've, I think I've seen this from both sides actually. Um a bit like as Jill talked about about this not being my phd thing that let and go thing. I think I definitely experienced that when I became DOS and as a secondary supervisor, II wasn't authoritarian and then gave him that nasty comments but there was a point at which I was like, I just don't think you should do it like that. And a student was saying, uh, was kind of saying they were agreeing with me in the, in the, in the, in emails but then just not doing it, not making those changes. And I had to the, the, the other supervisor when I met them, er, said, you know, you've gotta let this go. It's not your phd and I had to then create that space for students, say I had to say to a student. Look, you, you've just say you're not gonna follow my advice. It's fine like that, that's, that's just what my feedback was. You didn't have to follow it. But I think in the, in the, in the other role of being in this other side of this, this, this person who thought that their other supervisors were, was slightly off as, as a, a more junior level. I found that getting in there early with the feedback was really important. So because if the others, I know this is a really small practical point, but when you're sharing a document, so you're reading a chapter, if, if the main supervisor reads it first and then you just add your comments, they'll probably never read your comments. And I found it was really useful when when, when this was happening, when I didn't, I didn't think that the main supervisor, er, was actually as constructive as they could be, was to get in first with those constructive comments and let that student know. But then also make sure that the other supervisor was aware that I was putting positive comments in and I think, you know, it makes, it maybe make them think about the, the, the negativity in those comments, a very, very kind of practical point. Yeah, that, that, that's really good. Anyone else, I was just going to add n I know I've spoken about it before. I think some of the challenge is when actually the some of the tension, you know, in the supervisors, expectations of the student are where the supervisors aren't all from the same background. So if you haven't, as we, we, we do a lot of the time we have people from clinical disciplines um who somehow find their way into a med ed focused phd, but they've already kind of got their supervisors in place and then they needed a CL or person in there. Um And that person is trying to drive what we see as maybe the standards that we expect in cl or, but then really the clinical expert maybe is, has the role of primary supervisor and therefore maybe the final say in things I think some of those tensions are inherent in not understanding each other's backgrounds or background in understanding or so, having a supervisory team that has already met to discuss, not just roles and responsibilities and who's doing what, but actually, what's their vision for this phd outside of the, the, the, the student themselves? Because this poor student ends up navigating these, these tensions and finding themselves pulled in certain directions and almost having to choose sides, like who choose who's their favorite parent. You know, it's, it's, it's quite a tough situation for them to be in. So, what I've learned from that is actually as a supervisor, being crystal clear about where my boundaries are and where my role is or what I expect from the rest of the team if I'm going to contribute to that. So there's, there's a very frank conversation to be had when this supervisory team is coming together, how to really work out what the vision is and what that end game looks like. I think that's really good advice, Ailene, and it's the right and proper way to start a supervisory journey for sure. It sometimes happens along the way. And I guess those honest conversations and insight are not shying away from confrontation in order to take it offline, have the conversation. This isn't working. Why isn't it working? Where are we going wrong? How do we, how do we make it a better working relationship for the student? I think again, it's just, you know, not continuing without, you know, without actually addressing the element in the room that this relationship for whatever reason isn't working. The question is, can it be fixed or, or, or does someone step away from it? Yeah. To, to totally agree. Um, you know, obviously we would hope it doesn't get to this point for all the things we've talked about before, but unfortunately, it can get to this point. Um, and I suppose my mind turns to just not only the candidate performing the, you know, getting their, their, their phd, but also in the realms of their wellbeing. Um you know, uh doctoral studies can be stressful and um a poor supervisory breakdown uh can, has the potential to cause distress and, and beyond for, for the candidates. So I think you're right, Joel. There, there comes a point, there's a threshold where we need to, you know, do we need to do something. Um And I suppose that's something that we all fear and we can go to courses and say this is how this is what you should do and here's the regulations, but actually thinking it, feeling it and writing all those emotions when you start to have those hard challenging conversations, but it might be the right thing to do. Um And of course, maybe later we'll talk about how do we have those conversations. Um I know we do a lot of training about, you know, um you know, active bystander training, we should call it out. That's great. But actually, when you've got those emotions kicking off and you actually have to do something looking at that, you know, against the power gradients and all that sort of thing, but actually, hopefully having the conviction. Um and maybe later we'll talk about it. It's just not what you say, but it's how you said again that I like to come back to that back interview and, and then, and there's ways of, of bringing in um uh you know, challenges. I also realizing that we have to work within our U university institutions frameworks and there are pathways for this. Um And it's always good as a supervisor to liaise with your colleagues. Remember, it shouldn't be on your own if you're the, you know, the second supervisor, um you know, that, that there are people around you to support. Um you know, obviously there's a difference between mentors and coaches and actual official guidance but, but I, you know, lean into your network. Um and, and um and if it feels like you should make that call, you should do it. Thanks Gerry. They're all really important points. And yeah, please do talk about how you have that difficult conversation because it's so important and, you know, in my kind of limited supervisory experience, you know, it just, it's so difficult. Um you know, it's easy to shy away from it when really you need to get stuck in. Do, do you want me to say a few things on this topic and it, it's so helpful. This is like a, this is like a micro bite of hard conversations. II can keep you on the clock for one minute because I can talk all day about this. Well, we've only got four minutes left so maybe give it two minutes and then we'll wrap up. Ok. So what I'll do, I'll sh uh, first of all, I'll, I'll share a link to a lovely concept about unhurried conversations and I'll put a link to that. So it's not just what you say, but it's how you say it. And again, when you look at the Harvard business model of having challenging conversations, there's three, there's three a access that's working here is the, you know, taking the balcony and sharing the knowledge. That's one, you know, I believe that you have this and et cetera, but then there's the emotional dialogue, you know, uh look, this is difficult for me to say and I'm sure this is gonna be difficult for you to hear. Um But that's the second and the third is the identity dialogue like I don't want you to feel less of a supervisor or me as an individual, but I think we need to step aside and look at just where we are at this, this second. Um So tho those are the kind of three principles of that guide all of my challenging conversations. I'm off to do a GP surgery this afternoon. I'll probably be using that this afternoon but make sure that you delve deep into your, your ability to help regulate your emotions. You know, first thing is to say, label it. Yep. I'm anxious doing this and that's why I've got an Amygdala in my brain. Um, uh, that fires off emotions. Um, you know, do tap into your, your mantras, your, you know, your, your, your sigh, breathing, whatever you do. But realize that this is important because I can tell you now if you don't, it's gonna fester, it's gonna grow and it's gonna be, yeah, it's gonna be worse. So, um, so it's better to have those, those conversations that I've had to have those. Um And if I can share my little experience, it worked out. So if it happened for me, I hope it would happen for you that you would navigate a way forward. Ok? There you go. One minute. Nicola Fantastic, brilliant. I'll get on conversations for you. I do. Yeah, I do. Thank you. Um So, so we've got two minutes left. So what I'm going to do is just wrap up by asking each of the panel member they kind of top tip for, for dealing with, you know, difficult situations when you know, supervising phd students. Um, it can be a practical tip, it can be a high level tip, whatever, I'll leave it up to you. But um anyone ready to share that first or else I'll pick on you. Well, I'm happy to say the biggest thing I've actually taken from this conversation is actually naming it and actually realizing that this is an issue and not trying to just cover it up and sort of go through it because you are the co supervisor and you're not, maybe the lead that actually, maybe you need to step back from it and work out in whatever way, how to actually name it to it. Yeah. Absolutely. Or, or hoping that it'll go away, it, it doesn't. Uh, Tristam. Ok. Yeah, thanks. I think, I think that the point I've been, I don't know if I'm gonna articulate this very well, but when you're sort of pursuing a path to get your supervisee to do something and it's not working. The point at which that starts to impact on your relationship with that supervisee is, is the point at which you've just got to stop and step back and, and, and relinquish that control. So you can continue to have those conversations with your supervisee because getting that last bit of writing out or that little bit of writing out that you've meeting that little deadline that you set is, is not the biggest thing in the world at that point. It's, it's really not that big of a deal and they're actually stepping back and saying I just need to take change, take, change direction and continue those conversations and do nothing to, uh, to, to make that conversations, those conversations harder is really important. Thanks Tristan. That's really important, Jill. Yeah. So I think, I think perhaps what I'm taking away is the importance of planning, setting expectations right from the outset so that both parties and the supervisor relationship are clear on the direction of traveling and reassessing those at intervals, not shying away from the problem, recognizing, not shying away the problem really important for yourself as well as for the, for the trainee a and, and for me again, it's recognizing and, and just reminding me the importance that you can care but not control. It's not your phd, it's their phd. Um And so having all of those measures in place, but recognizing that you want to empower all the, the, the individual to deliver on their program is what you're trying to do. Thanks Jill, I, I've written that down care but not control. Uh Gerry. I love that. I'm gonna write that down to you, Jill as well. Um I don't, I don't know if I can add really much to some of the, but actually I felt this session really useful for me. Uh And, and I showed you uh the community of practice and, and thanks to, to everybody making this happen. Um Yeah, one word, relational P hds are not transactional. You know, you do this, you get this out at the end, it's together, you, you work together um and you hopefully enjoy the, the peaks of the phd journey and, and help get through the troughs. Um It can be a really joyous uh really meaningful experience. Uh But I think the hallmarks of a good supervisor is that they anticipate the, the troughs they're gonna plan. Um uh and they can share both together uh a, a sense of how we, how we go forward and, and, and one very final, quick, quick point on that is that it is one step of an academic journey. So to me, success is an individual that completes a phd and wishes to continue in the academic world. So they're gonna be the people at this meeting in two years. So, um you want people to enjoy it sufficiently that they want to continue to work in the space. Really important point. J brilliant. Thank you so much to the panel today. Um It's been a really helpful and useful conversation for me and hopefully the audience feels the same. Um And thanks the audience for coming along. It's great to have you here and thanks for like your questions and getting involved as well. Um Just to say, our next session is in January where we're looking at EDI in clinical education supervision. So hopefully we'll see you then. Um And I'm going to say Merry Christmas, actually, it is the first time I've said it this year. Um But um yeah, I hope everyone has a good Christmas break and hopefully see you in the new year. Merry Christmas to you too, Nicola. Bye bye. Thank you very much.