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A Cambridge Institute. He later joined the Cancer Research UK Cambridge Institute for doctoral studies in cancer immunology where he is fully funded by the Gates Cambridge scholarship alongside his scientific interests. Chego is passionate about access to cancer therapeutics in Africa clinical translation and re opportunities for black people in science. He enjoys playing football, cycling, traveling and reading books. Please join me as I welcome Doctor Shak Foy to this stage. Thank you. Thank you very much um for, for the nice introduction I appreciate um and thanks for inviting me and for having me. Um I think we have about one hour to, to discuss and I'll try to go fast. So I don't get into the next speaker's time and um hopefully we can, I hope that maybe I'll run through my discussion in 30 minutes. And then more importantly, we can have a conversation around and take a lot of questions as much as possible. I just confirm that you can hear me. Can I confirm that you can hear me? Ok, good. And that you used to put ice cream. Can you see my screen now? Um Sorry, my book. Ok. Yeah, so great. I believe. OK, thank you. Um Yeah, so my name is she uh she me as, as um introduced and I just take us through um some of my thoughts and some of the examples of our landscape of um basic and translational research. Um And I hope that's um um there are a few people who might be interested in considering options in basic science research research, either independently or together with um um a clinical career. And hopefully, uh I'm, I'm still very, very, very early stage in this. Um But hopefully, I can um share, share some of my experiences and share some ideas and some things I've also learned from people who have, who are established in this aspect. So um really the, the question is when OK, I think I should OK. Um When we think about research, I remember from med school uh first was that OK, I have research and OK, so epidemiological research, which is, which is it actually bedrock of research, bedrock of many things that we used to know in clinical medicine. Um But often times were really exposed to the possibilities of actually doing in laboratory research as um as physicians or as training doctors uh which is actually a bit contrary to what, what goes on in other parts of the world. So I just lay a bit of a foundation as to OK. So because I get a lot of questions about that, people say what is basic research. Why are you doing a phd in this? Why are not in public health? And then I thought research was public health and all that. So uh I mean, it's a very important part of research but, but there's, there's the aspect of basic research which actually as, as, as the name sounds is to really understand how things work in biology, in biochemistry. So all of those things we learned say the, the terrible Krebs cycle that we were trying to cramp. How, how exactly did somebody know that? Oh I don't even know anything about that creb cycle again. But how did somebody know that in glycolysis, that glucose actually broke down? You know that that was my question. Then I, I was like, and then I say to you, but I just joke around you that who told them that glucose broke down and became um something fructose, 34 grade or whatever? I didn't know where they following this stuff. So essentially like uh that fascinating science or not fascinating science of really saying how the molecule combine into our body. How do they need to, how do these reactions upon? What, what are these cells? What exactly are the cells doing? Are, are they attached to themselves? Are they moving? Are they doing it? It's essentially basic science. So really basic science is really the study of, I mean biological basic science is really the study of biological science for the understanding of how things work. But if you stretch that they need to be, you can then say, ok, if we understand how things work, then we might be able to understand how things should not work because that's iee exactly what diseases are about. Things are working in the wrong way or things are not working and then you can then stretch it out to the next um next idea of translational research that all of this vast knowledge that we have correct cycle, right? Um um This other cycle core, right? Or whatever it is, I'm not biased or biochemistry. I don't like biochemistry. But I think maybe that's some of the things that we can relate to is um but how exactly does that help us to treat? What, what does that do to me if somebody has accumulation of lactic acid, what does that do to me to the patient in, in front of me? Right. And then, so we say, oh OK, because the reason why they are accumulating lactic acid in this is because this particular enzyme in them is not functional glucose phosphatase or whatever. Oh Then we can go to the lab and say, can we make this enzyme and then give it to this patient and then they stop having lactic acidosis or, or galactosemia or, or whatever those things we've learned in about chemistry, right? So we, we've sort of translated that vast knowledge of understanding the um the gly lytic pathway the, the gluconeogenesis, the TC cycle. Again, I'm not biased on biochemist. I don't really do any biochemistry in my day to day life as a, as a Ph, but I, I think it's related uh and then it's OK, but we will have to solve that problem. And then we can see, OK, what dose of this is. So, if you come to the end of this now in clinical research, OK. Do we give the enzyme before the uh before they have the first meal in Gala Toia? Do we give it after? What is the best dose? What is this, what we combine it with when we, when we give it to them, should we not them on this way, nurse them or that? So in the clinic then or in the be on the better one not saying I exactly this, we have the biology, we know the drug that works. But how exactly do we make you work? And then this is actually even safe in the first place to use a new Ma. So that's sort of the spectrum of basic and transitional research. And um um oftentimes we find clinicians like people who have trained as doctors um on the end of the spectrum, which is because of course, before you can bring anything a biologist has discovered, um you, you, you need to collaborate with doctors to really be able to administer the job and, and that's, that's, that's sort of the foundation of um how do things work? How do things go wrong in disease? How can we correct these things that go wrong? How can we use this correction in humans in a way that it is safe and effective? Uh um uh um Essentially that's the spectrum of basic contract. So it's a very complicated process, as you can imagine. And it's very time co time consuming. Uh First you need to like, understand how things are even working. Like I said, oh and then next, you need to, oh, they know working in disease. And then next you need to say, oh OK. Can I do the disease model in the lab and say, OK, can I I cells in the lab that actually have this kind of disease that humans have or can I have an small animals in the lab that have this kind of disease that, that humans have? And then can I test this my drug? Because I can't just read a up and say, oh, this is the drug I've discovered in the lab. Let me take it to the next person I see on the street, nobody is going to do that. So, and then you then organize all of that pre clinical studies as you can see here and then take it to humans, do a one phase, one trial that you, that we're aware of. And then that's, that's really just saying is this safe in humans do more efficacy? E efficacy trials, phase two and phase three and then do more widespread population level outcomes. So this is a stretch, right? And, and it's very time consuming and it's, it's um it's, it's, it's challenging. So the i the biggest challenge in this is that things often get lost in transmission. So some guy in 19 09 might have discovered that, oh Rau's sarcoma virus drives this particular kind of cancer. It's not a clinician. And then I phone, he probably won the Nobel Prize for that ma OK, maybe not the Nobel Prize, probably won a biological prize and say, ah first time. But then nobody goes ahead and picks up Raus sma virus and say maybe there are some viruses that drive, maybe there's human papilloma virus that actually drives cancers in humans because the sarcoma virus was in chickens. He discovered it in 19 09. I, oh really? That means if we vaccinate people against this particular vaccines, then we might actually be able to prevent cancer, which is, and then like in some countries, now 90% drop in incidence of um um um Cervi cervical cancer because of vaccinations. So that means what things can actually take almost 100 years before you achieve that because there's really a wide divide between like what people discovering in the lab and then things get lost. There are many challenges, there are many regulatory um obstacles and all that kind of stuff and, and that's where the concept of translating um scientific discoveries, basic science discoveries into humans uh comes into the, the idea of translation a that, that is very much permanent now. So I hope I've been able to set a bit of, of background as to the spectrum. And um I'll just go ahead and give you a few examples now and then um I, I, I'll take some questions. So the, the way it's often the envision and when I first read about this possibility was that, oh, that are doing stuff from the bench to the be beside. So you want to take what has been discovered? Benches are all of where um now in the lab and then you want to really take them to the bed side. So like I said, the process is you, you do the research in the lab, it takes so strong. So we find out, wow, look at this new Mole co is going to cure cancer and then you, you stack up your clinical data, you do it in multiple models and all that kind of stuff. And then you call um a company and say, oh, I am drug company X, can you look at what we found in the lab? We want to make it into a drug. And so, OK, we'll put it in LA line. What's the indication? What's this and that? And then OK, so, oh this pre clinical data is very strong. Then we run a clinical trial, we do phase one, it's safe. We do phase two, phase three, like it's really, really curing these patients and then we call the government next and say, oh, regulatory agencies come and see this never before like um um a cancer drug. We think you should approve it and then say, ok, yeah, we approve it. We can give you the an initial approval for this small population of patients because we're not sure yet. But this is very strong data from the clinical trials. But we let you go ahead and then I I we expand the indications for this patient and then it becomes what is really. So like I said, that that's the pipeline of um of bench to bedside and that's what was traditionally done. And oftentimes, I mean, initially, this didn't really involve doctors, people who trained as physicians. So it was mostly driven by people in the on the bench side. So it was more of a bench to the bedside approach, but it was also very promising, of course, like it wasn't possible without clinicians. So I'm not saying it wasn't, but like the driving force was mostly from the bench. And so that delayed a lot of process uh processes and like things took longer. Um po potentially. Uh and of course, because you know, yeah, I I'll come back to that but um basically it took it took longer. So I like to give a very nice case study of what I've just described of this drug called Aerin Ain is an A two inhibitor uh uh in for, for can, for people with breast cancer or a two positive breast cancer. And even now other indications and, and the story of a two was that 00, 1984 in rats. As you can see it, some guys discovered a new oncogen in rat cells that they call new. Ok. Do you have a human version of this gene? Yes. OK. Wow. It's called a two human epidemic receptor two. And actually it's expressed in 25% of breast cancer. So one in four, I mean, this, this data is not for Africans but at least one in four caucasian breast cancer patients. Um Then where, what that, that, that's a huge proportion of people. You, you ever find a driver mutation or a driver gene like that, that's 25%. You eat code if you find an inhibitor to it and then it took them another two years to clone the gene. OK. Because, yeah. OK. So we've seen this gene. But what exactly does it do? So the way to approach that in the lab is that you clone the gene so that you can manipulate it, you can put mutations in it, you can remove mutations in and see how exactly does they affect behavior. So it took them 24 years. Now, I'm cloning in the lab in a week. But it took 24 years. Then in the 19 8 is to actually clone um uh um this, this gene. But I know that 12 years now, then there's a powerful inhibitor of uh of, of this aging. And, and in fact, it's revolutionized uh uh uh treatment of uh two positive breast cancer, potentially curing many, essentially curing many early stage diseases. So that's more like OK, the bank, we've discovered it, then can we bring it to, can we clean it and find out what it's doing? Can we bring it to the clinic? Um and to put a bit of graphics to this. So this is a normal cell that some uh uh uh two receptor that's not necessary for function. But this is a breast cancer cell for instance, and there has massive, you know, um upregulation of the uh two receptor. And so this drives um carcinogenesis, this drives proliferation and metastasis. Um and then they, oh can we actually clone the gene? So we clone the gene. So we have the gene now, can we synthesize the protein? And then this is what the protein looks like. It's the receptor or we ask this brown side, I just, it has this blue side. So where do we want to inhibit in it and say, OK, good, nice. Let's develop um an inhibitor to it. And you can see it's a receptor. So we find something that blocks it. Then the ligand that comes through to stimulate it is not there again. So that's a drug, right? OK. Yeah, then what, what exactly does this drug do? Let's test it in animals first. So, um you see animals this, on this side, there's no a two expression. So this are the uh two negative breast cancer. And then you see when you give this new drug, which is the d so that was the name as sein was called because it was an experimental drug then when they were trying it. So you see that, OK? Because there's no a true expression, you don't really get anything and then there's some a true expression, you get some different. But III I like the focus to be on this third graph where there's massive expression of this receptor. And then you see that compared to where this PBS is like. So to what like no align, this is a version of no line in the lab. So if I want to just draw and say, OK, give me PBS like it is both cell I essentially. So it's like what we use mostly for controls when you are testing a drug. And then you give um you give the person PBS and the tumor, the cancer grows drastically in a matter of days in this mice. But then you give them this new agen that you obliterate actually the growth of the cancer. So that's a cure potentially in this animal model. And then OK, that's, let's go to humans. And then this is from human. Now, in 2005, after the drug was approved in 1998 you could see that almost, uh uh a, a quarter food increasing. And this is a very powerful way to view uh the effect of the drug in the sense that it wasn't just, they weren't just looking for people who survived the disease. They were actually looking for people who survived the disease free of disease. So that means they didn't have their cancer returned. So they were actually cure of cancer essentially. So disease free Survivor, you are 85% of patients almost unthinkable for like what we used to know about cancer, you know, um in the early two thousands, early stage and all that. So that's the spectrum of our like, oh somebody found a receptor. Oh, let's find something to block that receptor or let's test it in animals. Oh That it's good. Let's take it to humans. And you can actually really say that um people's lives are dramatically changed and there's a book that chronicles um this if you're interested in uh in reading that too. So th this is a good child example, it doesn't always happen like this many times 90%. In fact, of things that were potential eat in the lab don't translate into anything. Um But of course, uh we can improve those numbers and people are trying to do that but ultimately also like not everything works. But this is a very good example and many things actually work um in this, in this way. So, but what about where do doctors coming? Where could doctors coming? Where, what, what's the role of clinicians in all of this? You think about it, that you are the one that sees patients, you're the one that actually know. So if I'm in the lab, I don't know. Um I mean, I know how there's breast cancer. I know there there are types of breast cancer, triple negative this but I haven't seen a patient with triple negative paps. I don't know the pain that they go through. I don't know how much it will make a difference. If somebody with triple negative breast cancer, she gets a drug that kills them. Or also, I don't, there's some non that come with really treating patients. I said that for some reason, you just noticed that this category of patients with triple negative cancer just do better than another category of patients with treat same triple negative cancer. So there's some cues and clues that we get in the in the clinic that actually can be brought back from the bed to the bench. And this is where it gets really fascinating to me that as a clinician, as a doctor who is equipped with laboratory skills, you can actually bring things the other way that I made this observation in my clinic that for some reason, this group of patients with heart failure are doing worse, even who are giving them the same drugs. So what can we really find out from this experience? And I'll give another example of it. So, um, this is actually something I've in real life. Uh and what actually change my career pathway. But uh, so you, you, you're the surgeon and then you remove the lung cancer, right? And then, but immediately you take the tissue, you, we don't, you, you and then you make um sac um you make two more tissue, you, you take circulating tumor cells from the blood of this patient. And the next thing is you go to the lab, right? You have your team in the lab and then you, you make what you call P DXS. So this uh patient derived Xen Xenograft. So essentially, you know that we've removed this lung cancer from this patient. But can I actually look at the behavior of this cancer? Can I make sort of an avatar of this cancer in an animal? Right? In an animal model? So essentially this person, this same person's cancer. I put it in an animal and um in, in a laboratory ma they are totally control, not just any random animal, they are, they are genetically modified and they, they are usually put in very good. So I like to say this any time I talk about animal research, they they they they eat better than me, they get very good and they are not wild mice or wild animals that you just pick from. So essentially, they are sort of made in the lab, they are genetically modified. Um And then you then can then follow the pathway, you remove the cancer from the body, but you can follow the pathway of this, of this particular same patients tumors. So, wow, this is the behavior of this cancer. This can actually help you to decide if there are three treatment options to see based on this behavior in this mice. Now, then give the three. So you've made a model of that patient's cancer in the in the mice, right? And then you can give the three available treatment options and see which one does better. That then helps you to see, OK, for adjuvant chemotherapy, for adjuvant chemotherapy, this is likely the drug that will work for this this particular person. So you've brought things back from the bedside to the bench and you sort of made, you know, the the reverse of that translation. So that's an exciting thing that I that clinicians can do and get involved with uh in the in the spectrum. Of course, clinicians can actually also drive from the bench as well. Um um if, if they also have a dedicated scientific career, so why, why do clinicians need to do this? What, what is the point? I mean, just leave it alone, right? Uh Sometimes people say it's good. But, but one of the biggest challenges I have alluded to is that they, they seem they seemed it's improving, especially in the developed world to be a massive value of death between what people discover in the lab and what gets to the bad because there's really no, there, there are no people who kind of have an idea of both sides and can say that, well, this will be important for this group of patients or this is the kind of drug we need to find like, yeah. And so that, that, that, that bridge is actually, I mean that um value is being breached by a group of people that are called scientist because they, they sort of have an idea of both side and then they can, they can contribute on this side, they can contribute on, on both sides. And there's really uh as I get to more nuanced career um talk now, um there's really a great deal of flexibility to which part of the spectrum, not that I've talked about the spectrum quite um um significantly there. So there are clinicians that leave medical school and leave practicing in total and actually go to run a lab. They don't do any science again, I mean, any clinical work again, while there are people who do MD phd. So there are doctors, medical doctors and their phd S but only do lab um clinical work. They don't do any laboratory work. So it's a but why there are people who do a so both in between. So there are people who split their time, 50 50 there are people who do 25% 75%. So depending on what is flexible, what your own personal goals are, what is available at the place where you are training, what is available at the place where you are working. Um But it's essentially um this breed that helps this breed of medical uh um professionals to kind of say, OK, we understand what's happening, we understand what that we can look for. What are the most necessary things to be driven, you know, in this pathway to, to get into um um patients and to benefit patients and actually to make a real impact uh in people's lives. Discovery is actually very interesting and good is challenging, boring for the purpose of discovery, but it becomes impactful when it actually changes lives and, and I guess that's what many of us um believe that we came to medicine to, to, to um save lives and change lives to help people. Exactly. So um just to put aside que perspective number. So you see that, OK, you can drive this work from the bench and say, 00, this is what I discovered in the lab and move it all the way to the bedside. Um But also you can actually do reverse translation like I've talked about. So for something we're learning from the patients actually, why do post surgical patients for appendectomy have this particular green exo or whatever uh exudate from the this thing, what is, what inflammatory changes are driving, what what changes in microenvironment are driving this particular survival of this micro? And there are real examples of how people have made discoveries that led to, you know, um very great, you know, change people's life from just observing things in the clinic and being, having the accurate to actually take that back to discuss with labor or to even run their own laps and really understand how that drives. You know, I'm sure you might have read that there's a particular bacterium that is very prominent in people with colon cancer. And then what exactly does he do that causes infective endocarditis, endocarditis in people with colon cancer. If you have insight thrombo, you, you'll be able to say, ok, can we study this? Is it driving, is it bystander or is it actually an effect or is it a cost? Uh And then we know that now actually that there are massive changes in the microbiome of people with colonic cancer that kind of drives uh the cancer. And people are now even exploring options for transplanting physics um to restore an LD microbiome as a treatment option for, for um for, for colonic cancer, for instance. So, I mean, there are things that are possible by getting insights from the clinic and that's really help with driving science and discovery for forward. So I just wanted to maybe talk a bit about, I have moved in this a bit of a total journey. It doesn't have to be this way. But to give a kind of a perspective to, ok, if I want to be this, how can I be? And I'm also trying to be uh not become yet but and then I'll see some other options that are possible. Um Maybe I'll start by saying that how do people become this? Right? Oftentimes in, in uh in developed countries, people that think from early age that they want to become physician scientist or they want to become a clinician scientist or the athletes want to science actually have programs that are designed for them that are known as MD phd programs. So in Cambridge, for instance, you could come into medical school to do an MD phd. So instead of the five years of an of MB BS or MB BS M BC HB, you actually enroll for an eight year program and then you take three years out of that to do phd. So actually by the time you are graduating, you're already an MD phd, very, very common in the US, very, very common in the UK. But that's just one part. In fact, the majority of people who do MD phd don't end up doing any science. But the point is that they have an idea of what kind of, you know, they, they know they can potentially, you do both a vast majority. I mean, a good proportion of the no majority actually then go to establish their own labs and all that. But also if that's not possible um in, in, in the US and the UK that I know of particularly, well, there are pathways within residency for people to take time off to go and do research. The research can be laboratory like basic science can be translational, can be clinical trial work can actually be business research. Um How do we optimize cost effectiveness for patients and all that kind of stuff? Uh And um so it could be absolutely anything, it could be quality, it could be epidemiology, it could be, it could be public health. So, so then they then go on to lead, you know, to establish their own fields um when they finished residency training. So there's no way then some people do MB BS first, then do phd. Some people do phd first, then do MB BS or MD before then going on. So the point is that like if you're interested and in fact, it's not necessary to do a phd something else I come to um before before um it just depends on what skill sets you want and what kind of sets you want to do. So, um for me, I think about it, what can you be, you can be a clinician scientist where you say you want to combine both of them. But it's also possible to actually just go full time into academia and do only research. It's also possible to finish your MD phd training and go into industry. So you can, you can work with pharmaceutical companies without treating patients and without actually running your own lab. So you walk in labs in like companies like GSK pfizer, astrazeneca people that discover drugs that do some of those things work there. And it's actually um uh a good kind of job. But what kind of work are you going to be doing? So I've given a bit of an idea, you can be doing like experiments, right? But some very, very recent, I mean much more common these days actually is not, people are doing um computational research where they actually don't do any real experiments. Like you saw there were like pre and stuff and all that. But they, they, you can have um um um machine learning A I you can have bioinformatics tools actually that can predict biological responses. Say, oh what shape of this drug, what is the structure of the drug that would be the best inhibitor to this particular target? And they can predict it from the from, from, you know, machines can predict it. And then we can then go in and test those predictions in the lab and see, OK, these are the targets that you described. These are the ones that work so you could do uh you know computation and then you could do translational work, which is more towards the clinic where or somebody has discovered something they want to run a clinical trial. You you have very good experience in clinical trials, then you can help them bring that drug to translate that basic science work into real life, impacting patients. So like I said, I cross the spectrum. It is possible to, to do stuff so many ways to be that. So I did med school. But uh yeah, I, I knew that, ok, I was interested in research but that was it. I didn't know so much. So I was like, ok, oh, found level. Ah, on what round as a case report? Iii I OK, I can join you. Oh, ep I went to public, went to bo did this and that it was very interesting stuff and sometimes very boring as well. Uh We, but the good thing though that at least it was helping to develop my acumen in OK, reading scientific reading and research papers, reading articles and then writing in my own way. And then, um, so my final year of med school I went to for an elective and I think that's where things kind of took this to. Um, so I did an elective post in, in, in the US where I just wanted to do surgery because it me cause that I'm going to be a surgeon. And so I did thoracic surgery at the University of Chicago and I was like, uh this is it doing robotic surgeries and then they will do robotic surgery on, on, on, on, on the patient with lung cancer. And then the, the weirdness that that follows. Um, ok, I think I've gone to faster than myself. The word that follows we say, ok, oh, everyone is there. We have an inter meeting where the surgeon comes, the physicians come, laboratory scientists come, pathologist come and then they discuss, oh patient XYZ was operated on. So, so, so the oh, now we have the mutational profile of this patient. It is egfr positive is positive and that what is going on in this space and oh, we developed the patient general graft of this patient. And then we think that something, something zab is going to work for them as adjuvant and the si but can also enroll in this particular clinic, trial trial of this new drug DS 118. And what are doing? I thought it surgery, I just supposed to do it. So I thought it was tremendously possible to, to actually do um to, to, to be sort of moving the frontiers. And I, I thought that inspired me a lot. So I went back home and I was OK, me, I want to try to see where I understand some reason that is why I doing so I said, OK, which lab can I join in? Nigeria. Uh, so at least I see. Ok, let me spend time, let me lose whether or not to do, uh, um, any of these things. Right. So I was counting for a lab because I was interested in oncology, like lung cancer and all this cancer. But I didn't find, um, I mean, maybe I just didn't know. But, so I saw that there was a lab in, at the university that was, um, they do virology research mostly you probably heard about them during COVID. They were the one that sequence COVID um um um virus in, in, in West Africa and Africa last A fe by Ebola. They are the ones that actually um is a very fantastic w funded lab. Um If you're interested in infectious disease, I would suggest you email them and see whether you can spend some time there. Um So I spent, so it was, we finished med school finance and then I was like, let me find something to do before induction because in *** they wouldn't doctor. And so I said, ok, um so I went there for six weeks and actually thought I liked, I was just shadow. I, I was following, following a phd student there and I was learning on some of the things I was doing. So I had absolutely no interest in doing infectious disease or vir but it was more about what's cues or what kind. Well, am I going to like this thing? So I said, let me explain. So, the idea I'm trying to bring from this is that even if you find something, that's exactly, exactly. There's a, there's a lot of room in early career to actually trans. So I imagine that most people on this talk are like any career. So, in fact, what I'm doing in my phd my, I have nothing to do with what I'm going to like, start my own, hopefully my own laps from day on. But I, I the skill I'm going to do the network I'm going to make here would be very, very important for whatever I'm going to do that I can do these things. Now, even if I have different questions, I'm asking different, you know, solutions I'm trying to find to different diseases. Um as far as within this immuno oncology, this thing and the skills and learn, you will be very important. So in, in fact, when I needed to apply to my current position, they said you must present a lab project as I'm a clinician, uh medicine study or something like that. I don't know which project you want me to, to present, but it was a project I walk on with this page student actually that I actually presented because then I just started my masters, I didn't have a master's project yet yet. And in fact, in fact, it was the potential that gave me this phd position now that I'm currently um finishing my second year. So it's very important to look for those opportunities and try to get them and I'll come back to, um, this point even if it's a bit tangential to what you might be interested in. Yeah. So I went to SGD was six weeks or so. Then I had to go back for induction and then I was job. So I did, I job of course, forgot about the, anything I was doing that I was very interested in also like maintaining my clinical skills and all that. But then I, so I was applying also for master's already. I say, OK, let me go for a deep dive in this thing and see whether I'm interested in. Like I said, you don't have to do these things and I'll come back to some of the reasons why I took this path. Um So I did a master's, I studied immune, I immuno immune um response in prostate cancer at Oxford. And um and I thought, OK, this doesn't look bad. So I'll do a phd. Um because I now knew that I wanted to have a significant portion of my career related to scientific research and to be able to compete very nicely in that sense, not to just do clinical trials of all that you need to sort of be solid. The study, the field of oncology and immune oncology is like very fast pa so I thought, OK, and also because I'm processing the process of starting residency anyway. So I like, ok, I, I'll do a phd and, um, yeah, so I'm currently doing a phd, uh, this piece and then we look at the immune system, I blah, blah, blah. And then hopefully I'll go to residency. So that's sort of a po possibility because there were no MD phd options in Nigeria. Maybe I'll have done that start. Ok. I've done with my mbps then. Maybe I'll do a phd now. Um So, uh so it's sort of a one plus three that I did one year master's three year phd, which is sort of the thing in the UK, you either do a four year phd or you do a one plus three. Um It's a bit longer in the US. And like I said, you don't have to do this before residency. You can actually embed it. So I know I have friends who are doing phd within residency um in the US, particularly. I know that's possible in the US and also in the UK, I mean US and the UK. And now I know that in some places it's increasingly becoming possible even in Nigeria to kind of take time off um residency and do some research. Uh And that's helpful if you want to have this kind of career. So how can you be just to summarize the things that I've said as my last slide, the important thing is to really try to put yourself into the realm of the field, expose yourself to information in the field. So I think what, like I said, what, what, what did it for me was that? OK? I said, OK, let me go for this. Let me get some exposure. Let me see what people are actually doing. And I look and I came back, I read a lot about it that, wow, this person is a clinical engineering is a, is an engineer, has a background, then he went to med school and now he makes medical devices that kind like brain implants and like, wow, people doing this. And I mean, OK, maybe I can try that as well. So you see that people from very vast backgrounds actually can do medicine and sort of add that on top of their clinical practice. Uh And of course, we need people importantly that are very dedicated to medical practice, but it's also possible to maybe consider other things as well. So I thought I could do that and then it's possible to actually leave medicine and then go and do that uh all together if you think that's, that's better uh for you as a person. So then begin to gather information. I think this is where it comes very self driven. Like I've given, I, I gave a lot of information on people. I realize that oftentimes the information you gather yourself that does the job for you in that sense of um really knowing what you want to do for your own self, how you want to go about it? Which country or which part of Nigeria or which anywhere you want to go first? And, and really are you trying to go the rope of your own career? Um Yeah, and then of course it's good to seek like I try to do it is getting a or state. I remember the commute between state and um and there are really international opportunities as well. Apply for things, see what you can get your hands on consider graduate studies. Like I'd like to emphasize because people have asked me the question a lot. Most it's not master, but it's about what skill sets do you want to do? Has your clinical training provided you with that skill set such that maybe if you want to do more clinical focus research, like I think the next talk one that's fantastic. But if you want to do like very raw basic science, I don't think the clinical training in, I just has provided those results. So I thought that I needed to get like if I wanted to be able to compete or do the kind of work I want to do. Yeah, I need to sort of um I understand that. And then of course, continuously ask questions. I'm still very confused about a lot of things myself. I asked a lot of questions from different people every time. But the part seems to get clearer and clearer and it's very popular in the UK and the U SI promise you. Um And um so you, you see people that do like pancreatic surgery and is making the pancreatic cancer vaccine. It was all over the news a few months ago. Uh And, and then, uh that's very, very popular. Um And then keep an open mind and attitude to PD change. But I know people who started and then they are now in industry. I know people who went back to full clinical practice. But the point is that like for me, I think what has been most is that OK, I took a little bit of these details, but I, I sort of tried to really enjoy the journey like I hope that I'll get back into residency, I'm applying to. But I OK, but let me enjoy this time and this, there's no waking up at 4 a.m. around and all that. So even if we end of the other, I'm not even going to do any of this business. So I'm trying to be a bit more realistic with this. But I've actually enjoyed the journey. I'll continually be able to give insights that would drive people that are working in that field or even then I said, OK, no clinical practice for myself again. Um um But then let me then focus on it. But the fact that I've been a trained clinician um in, in, in would always make me that it is OK. Maybe we should. So there was a conversation that came up in our lab recently. Now, was that, oh, wow. In patients with transplants, we noticed that in, during my algebra, if you give them Nifedipine, um pe people with transplants sort of have less rejection on the FED. And we look out in 96 paper actually that show a case series, but we were just discovering the mechanism in the lab in our own lab actually very randomly that there's a calum channel that is necessary for T cells. And the paper is about to be published. But I was able to give that clinically insight. Oh, no. One class patients seem to sort of have less refe rejection on in, in, on when they are on Nifedipine because it actually blocks that exact calcium channel that we just, that has just been discovered uh in T cells in our lab. So you, you don't know where those in insides really come. Uh uh uh uh um Andy and um and just keep an open mind and attitude and um hopefully you can enjoy the, the pathway and the choices. So uh I hope I'll be able to do a bit of justice. Um I'll be happy to take questions. I try to keep the sho um the talk short so that I can really take questions about things that might be um concerning to people about potential of, you know, doing this kind of stuff. Yeah, thank you so much. Um Happy to take any questions and I'll stop my sharing. Well, thank you so much. She, I'm sure some of our participants may have questions. So if you have questions, um kindly un mute and um Steven uh sorry, kindly raise your hand, use the raise hand icon and then Steven would um un mute you so you can ask your questions or you can just type them in the chat box so you can read them out. So I think there's a question on the chart, but I like, I, I think the moderator is going to coordinate, right? So I don't just jump the gun. OK. Um Steven, can you un mute? Um those that are raising your hands? Good evening. Thank you very much for the presentation. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Thank you. OK. Thank you very much for the presentation. I'm really glad that I was present here today because ever since my final year, I just finished my medical school education. So I, ever since my final year, I was already um I already made a decision that I would go into more like laboratory research, basic medical research because I have always been fascinated with microbiology, especially virology. So I, I think after my final exam, I, I started an internship training for two months in a biology lab in my school. I'm from University of Legal College. Of medicine. So I wa I just have a question if I'm planning to go for um postgraduate studies, is it possible to just go directly through the phd route without going through Master's because I already know what I want or what I think I want. So I just wanted to clarify. Do I need to do an MS C or just apply directly for phd? Yeah, that's a very fantastic question. And, and the answer is that you can, you can apply that. In fact, I applied actually to a phd. I didn't get it. That's why I did a masters. So I, I applied to a master's as a backup. But I mean, in this respect, I tell people, I tell my friends that I would have, I mean, I'm happy that I didn't go directly to a PD for my field because I had had no previous cancer immunology research experience. Like I said, it was virology I've done before and it is a crazily fast-paced uh uh um field. But uh in, in retrospect, you then need to consider, what is it? Where are you going? So phd Irregular Science Science phd in the US is six years. Why? Because the first two years is more or less like a masters. So you rarely find people who want to go to do a phd in the US, do a Masters first because what I like it on, you are going to repeat that masters in in, in your first two years of P. So the first two years of A PD in the US involves lectures and rotations in different labs before you then select which lab you are going to do your research project spend in the next four years. That doesn't happen in the U SI mean, in the UK, in the UK, we go directly to your lab almost always the time. So nobody's going to lecture you or anything. Nobody's going to do the day I resumed. I remember my, that's what picked me up at the bus station, took me to my um my college and go, oh, have you heard of your co receptors? I said, no, he said read it up. We'll discuss on Monday and today I'm looking for co receptors open and down. Uh I don't know, I, I don't even know. I looked for it in immune service before and, and something like that. Right. So, in, in, so it's, but the, the point there is that you can finish a period in 3 to 4 years in the UK. And that's why oftentimes you have seen that people in the UK would have done a P A masters because that's where you, so my masters, they taught me uh T cell uh antigen recognition, all these things that we received, I say without any um blinking here. Now, I would have had to read up if I came back to A P but so you need to understand where you are going to and, but is it possible totally possible to go to a PD right away. Um, but if you're going to the UK, you can apply directly for a PD. I did actually it was a very bold move, but I did and I got to the interview they said, oh, you have a good clinical but, but you have absolutely. Um, and this is Oxford for instance. And, um, I mean, we think you should be considered. So thankfully, I'd applied to this, my masters as a backup, so I got into that one. But yeah, I understand that. That was a very nice, I'm happy that they didn't actually take me out. I've been crying every night. Um And there are still jokes about that. So that's, I hope that answers the question. It's not a straightforward. Yes. Yes. The answer is yes, possible. If you are coming to the US, think about it, you can go directly, you really don't, but it's longer and then that's why it's longer. If you're coming to the UK, you most likely will go direct your phd without any mutations and without any teachings. So you need to know that your background at least is solid, your theoretical background and then you also, your experimental background is reasonably decent for Semien work, which is what A phd is. Yeah, I hope that's helpful. Um Thank you so much. She um we have some other questions. Um I think the next person is Mustafa Mubarak, Jola. Um OK, I'm si can mutes. Um Most of us so you can ask this question. Hello. Thank you very much. Um Doctor for the Enlightening webinar. Um I really appreciate uh my question is you mentioned going to a, a hospital in the United States for elective I to ask, was it a founded one? And did you take your step one before? Um You got the opportunity? Thank you. So the answer for, for both. So like, I it wasn't um so I didn't pay tuition for the month I spent there, but we had to get ourselves there. So, um and then I had not taken my step point. In fact, I still haven't taken my step point. Uh which is interesting, but um it's possible that your school might have collaboration. So there are two ways to go to at least the US for s that I know of in Nigeria. Um Because I've talked to quite a number of people about this is that if your school doesn't have a collaboration. So my school has a collaboration with the Center for Global Health at the University of Chicago. So often you see people from that go to Chicago or some other schools might have with other places. If you explore that as your first option, then you might, I know that there's the African Research Group for Oncology in, in, in led by professor. Um and they do have a very strong collaboration with MS KCC. So it might be time to actually ask questions that can we send medical students there for electives? Um I met professor that recently and I mean, it's something that should be discussed. Actually, the medical students can go to MS K Best co between the world for electives. Um Yeah, so it's possible that that's 11. OK, one way to go about it. But usually in that case, you don't pay tuition for that one month or whatever, you just need to get service. So we paid our flights, we paid accommodation and we have to get ourselves there, whichever we find the money. We we went, but it was, it was a good, the other option is that you actually there are many hospitals that just list it without the need for a collaboration with your institution and you just need to do that deep searching in the in on the internet. So some of them would say no requirement for step one. Most of them don't require step point, a few of them require step point. Usually it very top tier once you say, OK, because they want people who are really dedicated to the US pathway to be the one who's coming actually. So they want to say, OK, you should have done your step point and passed it and then you should be coming. Some of them then ask for tuition. But a good number of them also don't ask for tuition and then you just apply, they take and then you can go. But yeah, uh it usually will require very, very advanced planning. I would say start doing this deep research two years before you need to if you are still in medical school because that's where you can really get anson um experience if you are doing like even medicine or surgery or whatever. So, Andon means they will allow you to collect patients. You have your own patients, you have your own portal, you can present patients, you can. But post graduate, what they usually allow is observer. So it's just shadowing. So it's very important if you're interested in the US pathway to see whether that's um something you want to consider. It's Yeah. And, but I, I didn't pay tuition in my own case, but we have to get ourselves there. And um yeah, I didn't have to take step one, but those are possible with some other places. Yeah, I that helpful. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. She um Steven, can you meet the next person that's Judah Adey. Then we also have some questions in the chart that I'll read after we take um Judas Judah D's question. OK. While we are waiting for Steven to unmute some Judah DM me, I'll just read one of the questions in the charts. We have someone saying um a situation where someone has two career paths in mind which entails research and they really want to work in that field. Can the person do both or is there a category of staging for one to work on one before another? So I think this person is saying they have to research interests in mind and they are wondering if they can do both at the same time or talk to them one at a time. Yeah, I mean, so if, if that's what the, yeah, I mean, so I think it's, um, I think about this thing as a, as the way, you know, you have the potent stem cell and then you get committed along the way. My supervisor, for instance, she's a vet, she wanted to work with a, and just really do research and actually just, she has her own also and um, as stable and all that and then she didn't get funding for that. So she now did a phd in Cancerology and now she runs a very, uh strong cancerology lab on a pathway that she had never had before while she was a grad student. So the point is like, keep your options open. Like I said, you can explore both, find whether there's an intersection between, but usually as we then get more and more into the feud that people would expect you to define a niche area for yourself and say, OK, this person, when you hear their name, this but for early career, it's often best to even consider doing as much as possible. Both of them, is there an intersection between both fields or both research questions and maybe try that otherwise, maybe do one for a master's, do one for, I don't know if you're interested in that or like, or just do one majorly and explore whatever option, maybe a short training or maybe online, whatever training and all that for the other. But you don't have to say, oh, this is what I'm committed to. There's actually, it's very strong evidence that many people don't do what they did in their phd, like I said earlier for, for, for their advance to um um their own career because I mean, there are multiple reasons um for, for changing and moving um across. So I hope that answers the question. So at this early stage, it's possible to explore, but then you can get committed as you are becoming either a red blood cell or whatever or what's um final commitment that you are as you go along your career. All right. Um Thank you so much. Um So we can take Judas question. I think he's a muted or she? All right. Can I be heard, please? Yes, we can hear you. Please go on. OK, sir. Uh Thank you so much for this session. I'm so grateful for all this exposition and uh it's really a blessing to me today. Uh What I want to ask is uh is there, do you know of any postgraduate cause that unites veterinary medicine with human medicine and then clinical research? I really love to come a postgraduate cause that actually combines all of these together. Do you know if there's anything like that in the US? Yeah, I mean there's a, so there's a big field called one E which you might have heard about. Have you One Lonehes? So I think you should take a deep dive into one E um There are PHS all over the world on one. So, so one E is actually combining um animal health with human health and planet E and it's, it's a blooming field now. So you should, there are PHS in, there's a very good institute in the UK um London Club and Tropical Medicine where they are very big on one. But I'm sure also in the US. Um there's almost nothing you won't find. So the, the, the, the trick is that I have not, there's no combination you cannot find, I promise you that I, there are people who are neurosurgeons and engineers. There are people, there's almost no combination you can and if it doesn't exist, you can do what exists now and then create the field essentially. Yeah, but there's no combination you almost not find in the world. So, so check up one else and you be able to find phd programs or put graduate programs in one else. So one else is planetary oat animal and human. O Yeah. Oh, ok. Thank you so much. Uh Yeah. Mhm. Um Thank you, Shane. So another question in the chat box. Um We have one from um someone asking, I am currently a second year medical student and I know I want to be a clinician scientist. What pathways or trainings or courses or internships can I get involved in right now? So that by the time I am done, I'll have a lot of information and more clarity in pursuing my career path. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what we should be asking now and doing to say, where do I get information and really, really, really keep yourself, you know, keep your mind open. That's what I say to people. It's really early in medical school. That's if you find an opportunity. So look around in a or, or where or wherever, II, I shouldn't presume um wherever is there anybody doing something? So I have, I mean, we have folks in IBA now that actually joining brain research lab in, in the Institute of Medical Research at Ibadan. And it's becoming increasingly popular that medical students are telling people that we want to actually join. Um um um And so one day I, I learn how to extract RN A. The other day, I'll learn how to do RN A PC R or we, I learn how to do PC R or something, right? And you might not have much, but at least it gives you things to go and read up about and check. So look for first local opportunities. And that's what I, I'm happy that I took that um path. So often times we are very focused on international because when I came back from Chicago, the first thing I actually did was to look in Nigeria and see. Where can I find a lab in ***? Since I'm not interested in doing science? And I sent emails out. You probably not get many responses, but at least maybe you get one response. They ask people in your school as well. So if you ask people in biochemistry, I have people in microbiology that can I I talk to? Um um I remember even names of people I talk to. Um OK, can I come and just do two weeks or something? At least I learn how to do gene part or some something, right? Ultimately, you are ex explain and then you have things to say people when you're interviewing for international positions, nobody just gives people things without experience because it's tough and challenging to, you know, to come into these fields. So it will be good that people have seen a bias for action that OK, this person has taken some steps. So you there's no one thing I can recommend that this is the place to go. This is what to find, but act first locally around you that what can I do look online. What are you, are you interested in infectious disease? Blah, blah, blah. So, ok, what kind of things I can take? And I take an online course on that, right? Or online course on. So, so this, you find options. One is free. Ok. Let me do that on that from there. Yeah. So with the way I did it because there are many things snowballed. Actually I didn't really have, um, I mean, if I would go back, maybe I'll do things differently. But like, things know, but I just realized that I was rolling on information from information because I just really kept my eyes open and I was, uh, existing people. I do. Ok, let me apply for it or let me see if I can email somebody about this and something like that and, and really, I didn't share some of the other things, but like many of those things know. But, and that's our opportunities lit. So the way people say it is that you have to increase your surface area of lock. Um, um, um, yeah, in, in. So if you, if you stay in shallow waters, you are not likely to catch a big fish. But if you increase the surface area, we don't know whether you catch a fish, but if you catch it probably will be a big one and a bigger pool. Uh, and that's how it works really with carrier. Yeah, I would, that would be helpful. Thank you so much. She, so um the next question also from the charts is someone asking um Ka de I saying, um I want to ask if drug reposition and if drug reposition and research would need an additional translational research since the drug is already in the market. Yeah, that's a good question. That's, I mean, I'm interested in um uh maybe speaking with Ken after this because I'm also interested in um um translation um drug repositioning drug rep proposing. So the the answer is that it doesn't require much more basic research. But in fact, what it then requires is translational research. So drug rep proposing is that oh, this drug is paracetamol. We know that it works for any campaign. But is it possible for para one to actually be used to treat hypertension? This is purely hypothetical, please. I'm just giving an example. And then you say, OK, para that one is already in the market. So we don't need to do basic results. Oh Is this drug safe? We know that we ever taken anywhere? We not ask them to take it, right? So what we need to look for trans in for this new in? So you need to still do a few experiments usually to see. OK. Does this, does this drug work for hypertensive animals for that's why it's quicker actually. And then it significantly less expensive because oftentimes the drug is already on the market and is already off um, patent. What makes many drugs um, expensive is that they are still under patent pro protection. So only one company can produce them and it's still very difficult and then you can make generics that you can't make like biosimilars or things that look like them that do the same work. You have to keep that person give them their. And there was a lot of issues around that with COVID vaccines too as well. So these drugs are already there, we already know that it's safe in humans at at least at this dose. So we can then say, can we try it for another indication? And this is another very fantastic place for clinicians. So for instance, you notice that when you give a certain antibiotic to patients with so and so condition for a different condition that they are other condition also goes, goes down, then you take that back to the lab. And so OK, could it be that there's an off target effect of giving past amount of patients with EDI on improving their potential, for instance, and then you've discovered a new indication for that. And there's a guy at Stanford that's what is, is created a few out of that is done is looked at almost 3000 compounds that are currently in the market. And it just both machine learning and uh experimental work to actually find new indication because they found that the um you know, a particular drug. I don't want to mention his name is, in fact, could be used to treat some kinds of cancer and all that kind of. So it's very, I mean, of course, very high skill, but we, we need to begin to think about that Australia in Africa where maybe we can make new drugs now because the in institutions are not there, the big labs are not there but maybe things are already in the market are are promising. Yeah. Uh Thank you so much. Um You can send us an email so then also um link you up with doctor um after the program and you can have further conversations on this interesting subject. So um please drop our email in the chat box for the um and anyone else interested. So the next question is someone asking what the pathway is like for Canadian institutes if you have any idea on the pathway for probably basic science training in Canadian institutes? Yeah. So if it's basic science training and I think that's even easier, you just apply for master's and then phd like as you do for the UK, at least if you're interested or for a phd that actually depending on what you feel about your strength. So it's similar system of phd in, in Canada to the US. Um But like I said, uh that's basic science. If you want to really do basic science um for clinical clinical, I'm sure you probably know more than me. I don't know so much about Canada but we know that it's a bit more nuanced to get into Canada for like, residency. You need to sort of already be there. Permanent residents before you can even take the exams. That's what I know. Um, I, I stand to be corrected then when you take the exams you can then apply. But the thing is that people and, and I'm not a preacher of Jaba in any sense. Um So I have no comment to talk about Ja, but that's why I'm making sure that I'm men in Nigeria to in case we have folks who, who want to. I mean, if you can do the kind of work and you like it, why not? But um but if you want to go to Canada, I think it's a bit nuance for the clinical path where you sort of have to already have permanent residency and be there. Um And then you, and then take the exams and then apply for re but people are increasingly able to do it. I mean, last year in the March, they, we, we saw the insurance, we manage to um Canada residency. So, yeah. All right. Thank you, Chego. Uh The next question is from a, these are the last thing um as a Nigerian, how is it, is it to get into residence in the UK? Um um You, how is easy to get into residency in the UK before we even begin to talk about being a clinician scientist if yes, can we then follow this pattern into residency and also doing a phd during residency? Ok. Yeah, I mean, so it's, it's, um it's possible to, to get into residency in the uh in the U si mean, in the UK. Um GP training is, in fact, residency. So it's not to be a G A GP in the UK. They're not residency training. Exactly. So, um, so yeah, it's, it's longer if you want to do things like, so GP training is three years but it's longer for internal medicine, it's longer for surgery and it is more challenging to enter. So, um and I don't think it's um easy anywhere um outside of Nigeria to really as international this. But it's the, so the question is not easy. The question is possibility. I know that it is possible it might take a bit longer, it might take a bit more, you know, getting some things open in your portfolio and all that. But it's definitely possible. And, um, I mean, I don't know much as I, I will tell you, I don't know as much as about the UK pathway and compared to the US pathway because I'm actually trying to go to the US. Um, but it's definitely possible to get into this because I know people who've got in training positions. I have actually a classmate who's gotten, um, a senior one year, my senior who's actually got in um surgery training positions. Now you have to take the surgical exams, Mr, CS or MRCP for medicine then. But like I said GP itself is training and I know that within re surgery residency in the UK, many people who want to be at big academic institutions like Oxford and Cambridge usually have to do a phd within their Yeah. So there are pathways to become social scientists that if you like um if you want to like be in academia or academic institutions and all that. So that's, that's a possibility. So it's tough but it's possible and people are doing it. Um Yeah. Yeah, I hope that that understands the question trying to see the time to we don't um um en encourage you to pro time. OK. So um pro is already on board. So let's just take one more question. We have a question from Juda Missing if I want to be excellent tabo clinical research practice and um cardiothoracic surgery with hands on patients, what courses can I take? So I think um Juda your question is related to clinical research. So prof would take the question afterwards saying is more about basic science research. Then we have a question saying, what skills did you learn in medical school to prepare you for a career in basic science research? I think that's a very fantastic question. I think that there's nothing, there's nothing that I think is more vigorous and prepares you for maybe any part of life really than medical training. So, apart from say, OK, transferrable skills, we present a lot. We we, we are forced to know how to talk in some way, you know what I mean? Like um and, and to know how to talk systematically, you know, oh this is what I think about this patient and this is the presenting comprehensive. So all of that, you know, presentation skills and really thinking through scenarios is very, very important in science. Like that's how you design experiments that oh I have three proms. If I put A, I will put B what is it the effect if I put B and C, what is the effect? So if I put A and C does that mean it's a Combinator effect. And so all of that's mapping mind mapping, it happens a lot in experimental medicine. And you see that like medical school, see that medical school gives you, you know, a great deal of uh uh resilience, which is the most bad thing for a phd is resilience. Actually, it's not even, it's not if you are too smart, maybe you should do. But like the most part is actually because 90% of experiments fail that the true that the so it's not glamorous to be honest. Um um We need to do. It's about really say OK, this is why it probably failed and I'm going to try this other iter situation, I am going to try this other, I'm going to remove this condition and put another condition. So w what you see people have discovered is often a result of like 90% fail experiments and the few ones that worked that are not fun to the discovery. So all of that you get in medical school, you know, the so a lot of life skills, emotional intelligence, soft skills are very important, but very importantly, medical training in *** is extremely expensive and I use the word extremely. So what I tell people applying to public health program, I said nobody in the world that I know of has as much public health experience like we get in medical school in *** in in us, for example, they don't actually do public health, they don't do ep emba med school, you go for it if you're interested, but we in at least we do posting one, we go to U we come back and do out. So I said you are in doctor won do public health anyway, you should be able to get if you think about the experiences that you've accumulated in uh very well, the way we spend time in the clinical house. And not only for three. And so that really very good basic science background, you know, for you to be able to at least understand concepts that people are discussing. So you can't, you can't be void of ideas in terms of like, oh, you don't have, you don't have any idea of what people are talking about if you've really done this med school. Um, so I think it's, it's, it's a very nice foundation. Of course, you just have to dig deeper into what you're interested in because now, like, it's been surface level but you have a broad idea that you can then dig deeper into, you say you're interested in immunology or? Ok. Yeah. Oh I know T cells. I know B cells. But what about T cell receptors? What, what are the 20 types for that, that kind of stuff? Yeah. OK. Thank you so much. So, um the last question is somebody was asking about whether it's possible to do an elective rotation in the University of Cambridge in 400 level or whether they have to wait until your six A I think the person talking is the best because he just did the rotation. So I I refer you to him for that. Um the best. So you have to um as that when I did my rotation at the University of Cambridge, the rule is still that you have to be in your final year as at the time of that rotation. But like she said, you need to start researching how to apply a year or two years ahead of time. As a matter of fact, if you're thinking of doing your rotation in Oxford, I see you look at three, I know, when I, as at the beginning of my 51 year level, you told me that I had to have applied two years ahead of time if I wanted to do my elective in Oxford. But I would, I, I think I fell in love with Cambridge because aside from the clinical aspect, I'm doing interesting laparoscopic surgeries, we, I also got exposed to um a lot of um research things. So I would say um by all means, I would definitely be a more biased. What can be done. You need to start applying at the beginning of your 500 level and you can only do it in your 600 level. So that would be all. And thank you so much, Doctor Shaka Fola me for spending time with us and um we've definitely uncertain, learned a great deal about how to get involved in basic science research from you. Um Any other questions you have? Um the participants, please send us via email. I would try to have your questions sent back. Your, your response is sent back to you via email. Thank you so much for your time. She thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate. Yeah. Cheers. Thank you. Yeah, bye. Ok. Thank you. So, right. We, we have um a professor, um my personal mentor with