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Plays the game or thinking about it. Ok, perfect. Um So, like I said, thank you, everyone that's come and hopefully it's gonna be a really interesting hour with some opportunity for asking questions and just getting a little bit more information about research and what that looks like alongside student life as well as as you go further through your career um into being a clinician. Um So for anyone that hasn't seen myself before, um I am a final year medical student at Warwick University um approaching F one at a rather more rapid pace than uh than, than it felt a couple of months ago. Um And I've been working with a little team of students and alumni from Warwick to run the Beacon internships, which are protected internships um for people of various protected characteristics that we've run as paid internships for students throughout the year um to support those who maybe haven't had opportunities to partake in research so far um or who are interested in expanding their knowledge base to do with research. Um And as part of that, we have started to run um some talks like the ones we do this evening just to kind of expand people's knowledge, offer free e easy to join, opportunities to learn a little bit more about research, if it's something that you haven't really come across, um, maybe in a previous career or as part of your degree so far. Um So that's, that's my background. Um I am gonna hand over swiftly cos I know we've only got an hour and I don't wanna eat into, um, into your time. But are, are you happy to do a little introduction for us? Doctor Crispy? Absolutely. Thank you so much Chloe. And thanks again to the BCOM Academy once again for having me, er, nearly two months to today. So, thank you ever so much. Um It's an honor to be back. I Amin. Um, now, so when, when I first agreed to, to do to, to, I was one of the, er, junior research fellows in Leeds in the Department of Neurosurgery and it was my fa three year prior to reapplying to Neurosurg. Um I've been lucky enough that this year I've actually secured a training number, so I'm actually, er, no longer in need. So I'm actually about to start training in West Mainlands. So it'll be closer to some of you folks. I'll actually see you depending on where you, you might be working in terms of your clinical replacements. But I, I'll dive into this into, uh, in a second. I'm gonna share my screen and making sure. Well, I'm gonna share the tab as I mentioned earlier and I hope you can see this. I can see it brilliant. Thank you so much. Um So yeah, um what I was hoping to, to do today is to demystify uh based on my experience so far, um how to get started in research and I appreciate it is quite a complex, quite daunting topic. It is quite a hidden topic within the medical curriculum that is touched upon all medical graduates are expected to have some research experience as this back to the clinic court. Um, the full time, full, uh, full time employment. Yeah, as, as, as physicians. But in reality, depending on where you do study and all this is incredibly varied. I was fair. Er, lucky enough when I was, when I was studying at Whole York to have had some, uh, insight into research through the curriculum itself. But I've also been able to access a number of opportunities along the way that has sent me forward. By all means, I'm, I'm not here to demystify the entirety of medical research or your career as clinic academics. I just want you to catch a glimpse of what it actually means to be a clinic academic and I know that we're thinking about opportunities as students, but in reality, you're wanting to use to set yourselves up as the future clinic or academic you might or might not want to become ultimately and I will dive into this uh a little bit further. So um a little bit more about myself. I am originally from Italy. I've studied all my undergrad at Whole York medical School. I did a uh undergrad at M BBS program. And between my 3rd and 4th year I decided to intercalate and I did a masters in clinic anatomy always at, at Whole York. And that was for a number of reasons, including the fact that I was able to scale up one of the um small retrospective projects that I was doing as a student, selected uh student, selected component into my master's thesis. And that was one of the opportunities, early opportunities of research that I've actually been able to uh to undertake myself. I then moved from East Yorkshire to West Yorkshire. I've done my academic foundation training uh across bra and leeds. My focus has always been around neurosurgery, although my early experiences were actually in cardiothoracic surgery, for example. Um And then F two, I applied for the standard clinical pathway for er ST one neurosurgery. Unfortunately, I didn't get a, a training number at that point. And therefore I applied for one of the three post which was a brain tumor junior research fellow at least s teaching hospitals. And that has actually been a very vital opportunity for me in terms of maintaining some of those uh collaborative bonds and networking that I already had with the department in order to step up. Um And I promise this will make sense in terms of network and what, what we going to be talked about. Um, now, unfortunately enough, I'm actually gonna move to, I've already moved to West Mainlands and I'm about to start my training as, uh, as an academic clin or fellow in, in your surgery at T one. so as I said, I might actually meet you but of course, it's not all about research. So you all have different interests as how you balance it all. Because, er, if you were to pursue clean academia, this is a unique challenge in itself. And for me, it is a lot of medical politics and uh causing good trouble as, as I like to put it. Um So why could I mean, neurosurgery, this actually comes down to finding your own niche and there's a number of reasons why you may be attracted to a specific field of a medicine, surgery or community practice and there's something about it that may interest you and actually you may fully be interested into, er, for example, the uh medical aspect of GP practice, but actually the research that take place in GP practice is not what you're particularly passionate about uh as an example. And therefore you want to develop your niche for myself in neurosurgery. Um I've, I've always been fascinated by neurosurgery is one of the things that everyone says, but I actually was since I was a teenager and, and there's something about the clinical aspect of neurosurgery with the microscopy work, with the attention to details the complexity of neuranatomy is utterly fascinating. But why academia um y you need to think about wanting to do research for a number of reasons and you may want to do research for yourself because you want to further your knowledge, you, you'll continue to train throughout all of your, your clinical life, but you want to do research for yourself, for your patient and ultimately for the er healthcare service regardless or what it is that you're working. So you may want to be doing it for yourself to advance your knowledge and actually drive change in your clinical practice. All of this should be done for the benefit of the, of your patients. And, and that dictates what level of research you're actually conducting in the first place. What is it something that you're wanting to do preclinically or clinically? And I'll touch upon this in a second. And then the last thing is about the healthcare service itself. So some of the research that you do will have a direct impact on your patients um for you to witness there and there, some of it instead will take several years, decades if no longer to actually be seen translated into practice. But that's why it was attracted to um to research in itself. So we touched upon training and that's my pathway I want to touch upon what it actually takes to train as a clinic academic. Um You will often hear about the NIH R integrated academic training pathway and this is what it looks like effectively. So most of you yourselves are here in medical school. You're at some point along that journey, you're about to either jump up into foundation training, foundation training and you have the option of having a specialized foundation training for myself. It was still called an academic foundation program at that point. Um And then eventually, if you were to stick to the treadmill, that it is the the conveyor belt that is uh medical training in itself, you would just jump straight into a clinical training pathway. And as part of this, the very first step is to apply for an NIH R. So the National Institute of Health and Social Care Research Academic Clinical Fellowship. I know it's a mouthful. What it actually means is that you're dedicating about 25% of your time to doing research and that can take in number of shape and forms. Um The purpose of the academic condition program is to give early fully um newly qualified doctors, early exposure to research. Now you will know when you actually look how bad the people that do get those posts actually have already quite a lot of research and all of this pathway is becoming increasingly competitive. But let's say that for example, you've had some early research experience, you want to consolidate it and see what the balance is between clinical life and academic life. And actually, you do like it. At that point, you may want to apply for an ACF post with that 25%. The idea is to build a preliminary study that you can use during ST 12 and three to then apply for a phd. And that phd can take place straight after S D3. It could be taking place, for example, between ST two and ST three, which is one of my colleagues here here in these has actually been doing because you already had the data to, to use for a phd application. Actually, you may decide this is not for me. And actually, I won't out um the beauty of the integrated academic pathway that we often don't talk about is that you can do research outside of all of this, you can jump in and jump out at any point. Having not completed a specialized foundation pro program doesn't prohibit you from being able to then apply for an an NIH R Academy Clinical Fellowship. It makes it harder because perhaps you have not had as much opportunities, you might, you might have not had the protected time to do research in the first place. But that doesn't actually forbid you from being able to apply in the first place. And is then that if you continue on this conveyor belt, then eventually during your academic training, you will apply for a Clean Collector, you become more of an independent researcher within the NHS, for example. And then um junior academic training effectively, then progress to an associate professorship, senior Clean Collector and potentially a professorship within the university. But that comes much later on in your training career. So just to confuse you a little bit, you can literally do anything that you want. And I'll give you some example of my colleagues or some of my bosses. Actually, um why we're talking about all of this and you, you do research for a number of reasons, you will develop a number of things. So research is one of those key components. Actually, we we often underestimate as part of the portfolio. You might have done a project that will have giving you several different competencies. You will have achieved excellence for yourself, for your center or for your patients. You want to develop, develop new skills. You want to develop something locally for the healthcare service delivery and effectively you don't generate evidence. But that evidence is not only to be disseminated um externally is also the evidence for your own portfolio for your own growth as a researcher. And this is an integral part of your portfolio as you go for it. Your, you've got two distinctive things. You got your CV and your, your portfolio, your portfolio used to be a like thick folder that you used to bring on into um your, your application process at the selection interview and people will literally flick through it. I've never witnessed it, but it used to be a thing apparently. Um But in reality, you will have an application on oral. Most likely that list all of these things here and and research comes everywhere, research comes through awards and prize funding, employment. You will have done audits, you will have published, presented it. It is literally intrinsic to the entire portfolio. But at the same time, it is not the only thing that you need to be doing. So I'm wanting to perhaps excite you if you know already about research as a key component of your own portfolio. Because when we're thinking about careers, we often talk about full time, 100% of your employment being spent on simply looking after patients, which is what you can do if you do want to can eventually ignore doing audits and call improvement projects and education and research or you can develop a specialist portfolio and that could be into private practice that could be into research. It could be into education, you can do a number of things. Therefore, your portfolio becomes unique to you and you can achieve a number of things for it and you can demonstrate it. So what are the type of skills that we're talking about in terms of um research? Sorry, I'm gonna move that I'm going to change the presentation as we talk. Um So what are the type of skills that you would develop. Um I put a number of wars on, on the slide that you may recognize that some of the skills you you already possess great, brilliant. But actually, you realize as you advance in your career, especially if you are, I dare to say, if you're very self conscious or depending on what background you come from, you may not realize that you already possess some of these skills. And Inoa syndrome is very prevalent in high achieving professionals such as ourselves in medicine. In the first instance, it is even higher in amongst colleagues who perhaps are coming from a less privileged background, which once again is certainly the case. And all this is also the case in in terms of Warwick, in terms of the medical school that and the way he has been founded and the way he recruits, but most importantly comes from people who are actually doing good work. Um And you'll probably see more colleagues as you work within the NHS that actually those who have are very confident most of the time actually lack those skills and they, they simply overcompensate for it. So by doing research, you will develop a number of skills that are simply applicable across the entirety, your entire career and your entire persona actually. Um So when we're talking about research, one of the common mistakes that I often see made um as we dive into it is the difference between research and audits and then you can talk about service and quality quality improvement projects. Research is the process of formulating an hypothesis that you want to then de design a study a number of experiments to either prove it correct or prove it wrong. So this is a new idea that you're wanting to study audits are the process of evaluating a service provision, something that is already taking place against national or international guidelines. And instead quality improvement project and service improvement projects, which are actually fascinating in their own. It's supposed to be one of the easiest way that you can actually implement change in the NHS. Um uh except from, you know, ground breaking research and actually one of the quality improvement projects that I've been involved in in leads that I've actually led on um was er looking at the high rates of ventriculitis, which is the infection of the ventricles within the brain. And we noted that there was a certain increase that we thought was leaker was linked to um sewage leaks on the nearer ICU actually. Um And with fact, you implement month after month, a series of intervention in order to improve the care that you're providing for patients in order to see if there's a decrease or decrease in the incidence, for example. And, and this is one of these where you can change things in practice. However, all these and quips or sips are not research, research in itself is very different. And this is when it comes down in terms of what type of research you want to conduct because you need to make a choice. And I think it's a choice that you can only make by, by doing effectively. Would you like to work in a lab working on piping and um cultures and essay, essays and all the number of experiments that take place before anything remotely reaches to patient reaches patients. So for example, if you were to become a um academic oncologist, you may be involved, you might have a background in biochemistry. Actually, you're working very intensely on the ground to develop the 6th, 7th or eighth generation of chemotherapy agents. And this is actually the case, I've had a number of colleagues when I was in medical school who were from a bioengineering background, who were already working on the seventh generation of chemotherapy agent. However, in clinical practice, we were still using the 2nd 3rd generation of chemotherapy agent that we've been using since the seventies and the eighties. And that's because you need to bridge that, you need to bridge that gap. So effectively you develop something in the lab, you then need to test it through randomized controlled trials. A number of studies, phase 12 and three randomized controlled trials, and then you slowly implement into clinical practice and then you need need to continue to, to evaluate things in clinical practice. And this is still research and you need to make the choice along that pathway where you want to find yourself. And for myself, I think the the revelation actually came from being able to do things. I, my very first early experience of research was out of luck. If, if you like, I was very fortunate to have met the right person to work with within the right luck. It was a summer project between my 1st and 2nd year of university. This was 2016. Um and this is where this photo actually resides from. Um And it was a um musculoskeletal researcher looking at the er who was interested in looking at muscle oxidation and damage as a result of atherosclerosis. And we were working on mice, mice models and it was absolutely fascinating because it was the right person to work with at that point in time that made me realize a number of things. But I also realized over the course of that summer that I didn't want to do laboratory based work, lab based work, especially in the UK is also quite difficult because of the lack of funding because of the clash between clinical and academic time difficulty of being able to deliver something which is, which is able to implement change, real tangible change for, for the benefit of patients and that that is very difficult. So the con in the contrast, for example, if you were to just move the exact same laboratory based work in the United states where have got immense amount of funding even coming from Big Pharma. They've got laboratory set ups where effectively you have one phd student after another that continue the same type of work and have got high output of papers of presentations of research findings and evidence that is then translated into clinical practice. That is very fascinating. I found myself in Vancouver for the Society of Neuro Oncology meeting, the International meeting where effectively they presented the findings of the first breakthrough in the treatment of low grade gliomas in which one of the brain tumors for the first time in 25 years, which demonstrated not only increased survival but actually shrinking in the size of the tumor. And it is incredibly fascinating, but behind everything that they were presenting, which had already been published the year before was the fact that I've got a huge machine of funding and researchers behind the that push it forward where I actually find myself is this translational work. What I find incredibly fascinating is, is being able to bridge that gap between laboratory based research and, and clinical findings and I'll talk about it in a second. Um We've spoken about purpose. Um But what is really important is your role and your contribution to everything that you are doing. Um When I started in medical school, I got absolutely terrified by one of the talks that I II sat in, in entering fresher week maybe where they were talking about surgical portfolio, neurosurgery entry and academic entries. And you just had to build this portfolio and I didn't know where this portfolio was gonna come from. And, and therefore I started collecting things, even things that I was not particularly passionate about and I could do all right in them. II, I'm, I'm, it's not a bra I could do all right in them, but it wasn't something that was about. But regardless, there were early opportunities that I'm very thankful for. But it also made me realize that actually I just want to do things that I'm passionate about. So that is my advice to yourself. Make sure to cherry pick what you actually want to be involved in because that is time, the most valuable um asset that you actually have is time. And can you dedicate that time to a certain research project? By the way, I should have a actually mentioned if you have any questions at any point that you want to put in the chart, please do because I'll keep an eye on it uh in case you, you want to um you, we I can answer them as we go along. So um what is the timeline in itself? Um at the moment, you're probably finding yourself at some point across the first few points of this timeline is overly simplified by all means, it's really simplified and it's not simply linear and 0.2 doesn't happen after you finish 0.1 the reality is that everything is happening at the same time, you're forever trainee even after you become a consultant, which is especially the case for some of the newest specialties, for example, some of the newest surgical specialty, er for example, and as you train, you probably realize at some point that you're passionate about a certain medical surgical community specialty, you're passionate about some specific issue in that specialty. And perhaps you, when you want to pursue it, actually, you just want to experiment and, and, and that's probably where you're finding yourselves. One of the key things in this after you find a potential research interest or something you want to experiment in is finding the right person, finding the right level of mentorship. And I'm gonna talk about mentorship and supervision because it's quite unique as a combo and then eventually you progress, you're joining, hopefully you become established or you join a certain research group and the department and u usually you will be contributing it at, at a minor level. Unless of course, you, you already apply for a specific project, you're actually responsible for that project. And as you build the confidence, but most importantly, you build the team's trust in your skills that you're able to deliver. You are able to work on this, then effectively, you might be able to step up into creating a research proposal, funding, pushing forward through your ethics and then effective conducting your research project and disseminating findings. So we're gonna go through this timeline bit by bit. So why do I think mentorship is quite a controversial um topic? I'm not sure what your experience might have been a of training so far. And mine has been very disappointing in terms of mentorship. I can only identify one person in my career who I would call a true mentor, a person that would have gone above and beyond to get me into their cho their specialty. But unfortunately, I didn't choose that specialty in the first place. Uh And it was a unique individual in everything that we did in terms of the early research project that I worked with them. The subsequent development of this project that I initially only presented at, at a conference and then um sorry, I sat back. So he was my very first mentor, surgical mentor in a medical school. I was given an opportunity to simply present an obstruct, submit an obstruct to a conference that had already been drafted by somebody else that obstructor got accepted and I was due to present it and it was accepted as, as a poster and therefore, I just needed to stand by the poster. Um But at that point, I didn't have a clue what research actually meant because my experience of research in Italy was that you were sat in a lab in the dark applying forever for grants, which is not completely wrong. Er But nonetheless, always scrapping for more funding. Always, never knowing whether you're going to be employed the year after or not. And that absolutely terrified me. It really put me off researcher. But actually the experience I had through this mental was incredible. And with him effec effectively, during my 3rd and 4th year of medical school, I was then able to actually develop this study. This initial small single center study into a National Multicenter study. It was a retrospective study, but it was a unique opportunity to actually evaluate national na nationwide data and then being able to publish it. Um But the vast majority of people you will find are supervisors and I've only met supervisors ever since and that don't get me wrong. They're good supervisors. Um Some of them have not been as good supervisors for a number of reasons, but the reality is that not everyone who gets assigned the title of mentor of supervisor, the right person to do so. And you, you will realize it yourself, you probably enter some mentorship er programs. And the importance for all of this is to understand where you can get out of this relationship. So it's really important for you to understand what your priorities are in terms of these mentorship or super supervisory relationship that you have with this person to understand. Do you want to be able to publish a paper by the end of the 12 months that you spent together as part of this program. Do you want to be able to just have a sample of what a laboratory based uh research project looks like? Would you like to learn instead some, some of the puppet and setting up a laboratory based research? Sorry, a like an experiment in the first place or do you want to just develop new skills in er er literature review or paper drafting and so forth? So I think it's very important earlier on as you meet this person for the very first time to set out your expectations of what you hope to achieve and what you are able to deliver for this person. This is really important. And actually, if you find that that relationship is not working, move away again, your time is incredibly valuable. There, there's no need, of course, to cut off people. I think it's very important to always have, be a, have a healthy discussion, especially if, if you think that that really working relationship is not working for the both of you. There's nothing to be ashamed of when you do realize that actually something you are particularly keen to get involved in it. A research paper to write. Actually, you have no longer capacity for or you're no longer interested in it. You, you should always be your, find yourself in a space where you can step away from it and for mentorship, you'll get a number of things, they'll be able to put you forward for training and courses, they might actually be the person that trains, trains you in those. And actually, for example, what I'm desperately hoping to be able to find uh as I move to West Mainlands, is somebody an academic neurosurgeon who maybe actually guide me through a career progression because it's a, an a, an absolute minefield in terms of progressing through training. What is does the research t timeline itself actually look like in terms of after you find a good mentor, a good supervisor that can put you through a project, you might find, for example, on the university website or a student selective component that there is a research project. For example about um I'm gonna use the example of my very first research project. It was about collecting data for a wider phd project looking at muscle tissues. So where I found myself actually in the research timeline and possibly the vast majority of view cells will also start there is actually in data collection. And this is quite important actually because you're far more likely to work your way down before you come back to the very first point of this timeline that takes a lot of experience. So you're probably gonna be starting with some data collection, you'll probably be starting a lab or using AAA computer, uh a hospital computer to collect the data from a database, putting it together. And eventually you get your name or hopefully in a publication or a presentation and then you want to, to develop that relationship further. So you work with that team, they know you by now they know you're able to meet the deadline of completing the data collection for 100 patients, 100 muscles, tissues, whatever it may be. And then you want to scale up. Actually, you know, your university does a course on data analysis or you're able to shadow the statistician involved in a certain research project. And therefore the next step is part of the data analysis. But because you've been part of this two, you'll probably be including the uh thread of emails that goes back and forth in drafting the final submission and possibly at the same time because actually, you know, you have quite a particular important role in the data collection. You put together an abstract and somebody helps you and you submit it to a conference and eventually you're able to present it there. So you can see how you kind of skip back and forward and eventually you get your name on a publication. But again, before you actually are experienced enough to be able to be the person posing your question, you're far more likely to be involved in early stages of recruitment and designing of someone else's product. And then eventually, as you become more senior, and that's the, the exact same advice that my current supervisor at least gave me. Um He literally told me you're, you're a good person to be able to deliver things, you turn around papers, you turn around all everything that we were working on very quickly. But now is the stepping stone into being able to pose your own question. So the moment we are, for example, applying for funding for a research project that I'll show you in a second. And he highlighted to me, this is your turning point. You clearly have a lot in your portfolio. You need to become more independent, you need to be able to pose the question yourself and then simply follow advice and that simply comes with practice. But it and II probably hear your, your questions. At what point can you do that? How does it start? And there's no simply right or, or wrong answer here. And my frustration has been in the fact that I've not found a single person that is taking me through this time. I, I have no found anyone who simply took me by hand to take me there. There's been a lot of trial and error in submitted papers that have been rejected over 12 times and that hurt my thesis have been rejected over 12 times and I decided to put it aside and never publish it. I don't care. I don't want to publish it. That's it. I've done, I've learned my lesson, but it also comes from, from occasional successes. So it's a trial and error to be able to develop that, that level of expertise and working with us in collaboration. So this is I'm gonna show you this if you please. So this is the current project that I just finished in Leeds. We er set up a prelim single center randomized controlled trial to evaluate whether mixed reality, which is what you're looking at at the screen is of benefit. As an addition to the standard consultation to help patients understand where the tumor is and the brown bit of the tumor that you can and see is exactly what patients are looking at. So patients and the consultant will put on the headset as you can see, this is actually one of our patients and we show them the scan. And what he actually showed is that yes, we're bussing clinic, but actually this is feasible and you need to prove that before you're able to introduce something else within the NHS, you need to prove at the early stage. Ok, the technology works, but now does it work within the clinic space? And we showed that with one consultant in a neur oncology clinic in a single center, this works. And actually not only do we show that it works and it doesn't fail and it doesn't take additional time. We actually showed that patients like it and patients tolerate it well and patients do enjoy it and actually are able to start, we we've actually showing some signal of efficacy. So patients are potentially benefiting from this. But what we need to do now is scale it up. So we need to replicate exactly what we did. But in multiple centers, in multiple surgeons, because the question is, does one surgeon is the one surgeon the reason why it is successful or are the patients in leeds simply better suited for this technology compared to Birmingham or Bristol or Aberdeen or wherever it might be. So it's about building up the next stage and this is the grand proposal that we're currently, I'm, I'm currently building uh with my supervisor. So what are we talking about proposal? Um It takes some time to eventually get there and this is where I'm, I'm struggling in terms of actually meeting that, that line with, with my supervisors actually thinking about how do I set this up? What is the question that I'm wanting to ask? And the question that is now clearer in my mind than it was before? Is, does this technology work across multiple centers? Can we actually show that it is feasible across a varied setting within the NHS in the first place? And it's about formulating that question. Once you've got that question, you can start thinking about the study design. Something that is incredibly invaluable as a skill in research is being able to look at the literature review. And throughout the early experiences that I had in medical school journal clubs have been really invaluable, being able to look at a piece of paper even just the abstract and think about what the biases, the downfalls and the strengths of a paper really are is incredibly invaluable because you want to be able to criticize someone else research the same way you want yours to be criticized. And we can talk about the reviewers comments that you always get on, on your papers after you submit it and you always have one reviewer reviewer, one that is very supportive, absolutely loves it. They send you back or you know, some minor amendments, you got reviewers to who's had too many glasses of wine that night, they're particularly frustrated about their own academic career and decided to absolutely destroy and rip into pieces your research because you know, you generate it from a single hospital which is a district general hospital and it seems it, it, it it, it really brings you down. So, you know, being able to look at the literature is incredibly important because once you're able to look at something that is already published and understand what the biases, what the strength and limitations of that study actually are, you can then build them in your own study design. What can I do to prevent these things from happening? So for example, in this case, we're looking at introducing a new intervention. So what we need to do is having a prospective study. In the first instance, we're wanting to demonstrate whether it is feasible. So we need to compare it. We need to have patients that are going through the standard consultations. We're just using a two D monitor and then we're gonna have a second arm, which is the, the um the cases and is the patients that are instead of using the new technologies, you need to be able to compare them. But you only, what are you, what are you actually trying to evaluate? So for us, it's only going to be a small population rather than a big large randomized controlled trial across multiple centers to effectively note whether this truly brings any benefits to the patients. And one of the things that I hope you'll be able to see in all of this is that none of us can do this alone for a number of reasons. And there are some very big loners in the world of medicine. And you probably know some of those names in your chosen specialty. You will know somebody's big professor name for example. But the reality is that we all need each other. You may, you may move from where you are now to go somewhere else. For your foundation training, you will still meet colleagues that you potentially went to university with. And even if you didn't know them, something having gone, for example, to Warwick University will have enabled you to to bond with each other. And it's the same in research I done referrals clinically to colleagues who I went to medical school where they actually knew who they were in the first place. And once he recognized their voice down the phone, everything just ll lighten up. It's absolutely brilliant. But to the same extent, having colleagues across the country you can collaborate with is in would be important, not only for research, but also for preparing for those steps. And one of the assets, probably one of the strongest assets that I've also gained in terms of research. This year is forming those connections amongst colleagues that were applying for the academic clinical fellowship in your surgery this year alongside the standard national trainer, clinical selection for neurosurgery. Knowing those people being able to practice the interviews, being able to understand and appraise each other's research has been really important in my learning pathway. Um I'll touch upon it in a second. II do promise. So this is a being able to put forward your own research proposal is something that happens later on. But it's certainly something that if you are committed to research, you will do yourselves. Absolutely. What is the next stage? Something that I think you, you probably find yourselves already involved in this at at this stage without even realizing you applied for funding. And especially because you guys are at post graduate, you are already applied for, for funding for in a number of reasons. Um but, and you, you, you having to, to find your own funding. Um but something that is incredibly invaluable in uh in research, not only to your employing institution, but most importantly to yourself is being able to demonstrate that you can bring in the funds and that can take a number of shape and forms, it could be a scholarship. So for example, I demons uh so I'll go through this work in terms of demonstrating what, what actual evidence you you can you can bring to the table. Sorry. So in terms of what, what evidence in my um II put on my application this year, for example, on my academic clinical fellowship application. And so for example, for my leadership experience, I gained a scholarship from the Healthcare Leadership Academy, which was a one dedicated year to, to work within a group. One of the cohorts across um the world actually to be able to develop the skills and build up on this network and experiences, you can apply for grants. For example, we had a grant from Leads Hospital charities to be able to publish a local service improvement project as part of the B MJ Open access um repository. Uh You will apply, for example, as part of the academic foundation program, specialized foundation program. Sorry, you will get a small grant as amount of money to be able to complete APG search. This is certainly the case in in leeds, for example. And I did APG search in he health research, which made me realize that never one to do taught programs ever again in my entire life. Er, but nonetheless, it was still valuable. It is an additional post nominal that you add to the, to the rest of the name. But it's 11 of those things and these demonstrated actually across your entire career pathway and it doesn't matter whether it's 100 lbs or 5000 lbs, you need to be able to demonstrate that. And all of your research, we often talk about researchers being conducted within the NHS. But actually, you may find that some of the partnerships that you do form as you become more senior is actually with industry, you might have industry funded for technology, for uh big farmers, for example, to be able to conduct research. And that's usually when you get a really big grants in the first place. But actually something to bear in mind that you can demonstrate later on is that let's say that you are very doing your training pathway and you're going to present at a national conference, you can apply for a Bursary to attend that conference and there is academic funding that you can demonstrate. Actually, I've been successful at securing funding over and over again. And it is the same for elective burster and so forth. All of this is incredibly important and you might have been able to secure funding elsewhere. And I think one of the strongest points in my application this year was actually that through my BMA rules in uh um 2021 I secured um in negotiations. But the government and the KF pr secured uh nearly 35 million lbs for the expansion of the uh foundation program. In order to ensure that those uh those colleagues of ours who were graduated but were not granted a place in the foundation program had a training post. So that thi this is something quite important, like clearly you are able to bring in money. But the r writing is a whole definition. The reason why I'm not diving into it right now is because unfortunately finding myself in the depth of it and I'm trying to keep afloat. Sorry. All good. So far, I'll take a silence and no comments in the chart. I'll take it as a yes so far. So um ethics approval and you'll probably be applying for ethics approval before you actually realize. And most of the time it's actually straightforward because it is, it's been deeply engrave in our practice. Everything needs ethics approval. Now, if you're doing an audit or quality improvement project that possibly might not need ethics approval, you might need a local, an internal local board approval, but ethics approval is really important. Um And you'll find yourself in a, in a number of positions uh in order to either request a be the first person that um requests ethics approval for a large or a local um research study, you may actually be applying, for example, for a national study that is recruiting locally. So sometimes I found myself as part of a large retrospective study that was looking at the risk of aneurysm rupture that was being laid down by Southampton who received all the paperwork and I was leading on the ethics approval with the whole University Hospital trust, for example, and that is a whole headache in itself. Usually the forms are very standardized. Um The earliest experience you might actually have is as part of, for example, BC or intercalated degree. You might actually find yourself just putting your ethics approval for a, a simple audit sometimes. Um But it's really important in your research, you should actually build on the timeline, never underestimate how long it takes to get ethics approval in the first place because it can take several months to even just write the application itself. And the reason why it takes several months is because you're sending it back and forth and you might have the availability to simply sit on a date per week and work on it. But then it takes several weeks once you send it to your supervisor to return to you with all of the comments and then you need to do all the work and it's kind of back and forth. This is why it takes so long and especially the universities as institutions are incredibly busy and incredibly slow at returning these files back to you. Um conscious of time because I wanted to, to talk about other things. Um dissemination is incredibly important of what we do, the research that you want to do and possibly the early stages where you've been involved in terms of research, in terms of publications, presentations so forth, is incredibly important. Something that I've not included here is patient and public involvement, which is one of the things that they look for on grants and applications in the first place but is also incredibly important. So if you're designing a new study for a new intervention, for example, such as the mixed reality headset that I just showed you guys, what we did is that we sat down with patient and public involvement that this is usually lay members of the public that are recruited by the university by a charity that you're working with. And you sit around the table and you put forward your research proposal in lay terms. And all research application for ethics for grants for funding for dissemination should always include a late summary. These summaries are fascinating um because um I we're not gonna do it online today. But if I was to ask you, um what do you think the average reading age of the British public is, you'll probably be shocked. So as part of the academic, academic Clinical Fellowship, I was expected to for the 1st 21 is to provide a scientific summary to a paper I was given, followed by a lay audience summary and that lay audience summary needs to be pitched to a 10 to 12 year old that is effectively the reading age of the British public. Nearly the vast majority of the British public can read and write. However, the reading age is far lower. So one level of difficulty of the reading of the script that you're presenting with, can they actually comprehend? And this is quite shocking. These are the people that you're encountering on your day to day job in the first place as your patients. And therefore you need to make sure that all the con language that you've learned as part of your clinical training and then your academic training can be translated into it. I never underestimated. I think one of my um phd friends um here in Leeds actually had their application rejected because the last summary didn't go far enough and because they're not engaged with the process of uh public and patients uh involvement and engagement. So this is really, really important. So factor in as you start earlier on, presentations are brilliant, presentations are an incredible opportunity. It terrifies you. I've not included here. So this was the first time I ever presented anywhere. This was my cardiothoracic surge neck, cardiothoracic mentor. We were in Birmingham actually at the National Conference I was lucky enough to present and also you need to present a poster. Does anybody explain to us what a poster is that a poster is meant to look this way? Rather than something else. And this is incredibly important because it is a niche community. And nobody explained, plainly explains what is expected. Does anybody explains what a presentation is expected to believe and so forth? But you get to, if you, hopefully, if you have the experience, you get to go to incredible places and one of the most valuable opportunities or some of the most valuable opportunities that you actually get is actually the networking, getting to know people from across the world, from across the field, from across the country that perhaps you may be working with at some point. So forming those collaborations as you move forward, and that's the one of the tips that one of the pieces of advice that I wanna give you. It is important to develop those connections, uh publications, sorry, the perks of having a cold, sorry guys um publications is the other way we er divulge scientific findings, we divulge them to a scientific audience in the first place. Um I'm not sure how many of you are published. Um But what you pop there's different matrix as to how successful you are as a researcher in the first place. And we often look at how many pre presentations you have, how many publications you have more and more within the sector. There's a a transition in terms of how university view all of them. So university will look at funding, they will look at active research at the outputs and so it will be a combination of it all. But quite often you look at somebody's application in life and think, oh, they've got 10 publications, they've got one of the colleagues that applied this year had 8/80 publications. And what I find utterly fascinating is that they can clearly deliver, they clearly have high level and I know number of people like this at the same stage of training as I am that have got far more number of publications than I do nearly 10 times more than I do. Um And they still got the training number, they still got the job. Of course, they will get the job because absolutely brilliant. But we're looking at it is the quality is the volume of what they are delivering is the level of collaboration. But most importantly, what have they been leading on? Are they simply publishing case reports and retrospective studies? Have they been leading on prospective studies? So I want to give you just a a war word of caution in terms of comparing your portfolio and your growth. I've published I think six or seven times in terms of regional research to this point. And I think I'm only first, I'm I'm first author only. I appreciate it that it, it, it, it looks incredible, but I think I'm I'm first author. Hopefully it looks incredible. Sorry, I'm first author, I think on three or four papers. Um I can't remember to be completely honest, sorry. Um And I don't keep track, I don't wanna keep track because I have all my output and impact that has on my patients. But I know that now that I'm working within the university sector, they will care about it. So it's very important that you consider what has been published because as part of your publication number, you can count in all the published abstracts because you've gone to a conference and that conference publishes all the abstracts that are being presented in a journal. Is there a publication? Well, yes, what is the output? How significant it is? It is slightly different compared to a full scientific paper. So there's a number of things to be taken into account. Um Something really important that we count on at the moment. Unfortunately, is the impa factor of the general if you publish in the er New England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet on nature, of course, they're gonna have massive impact factors into the seventies and eighties, if not higher. I don't know how high it is at the moment. What it means is that it's gonna be very, hopefully it's gonna be high quality research. But of course, we also know that for example, the research published by um in 2003 about the link, uh 2003 between the link of uh vaccinations with autism was also published in the lancet and, and it was withdrawn, for example, Um So you, you need to be able to appraise all the um all the findings that you do read, you assume it is gonna be of higher quality, you assume it's gonna be higher importance of evidence in terms of the ranking, in terms of what it being published and how impactful it is going to be on your clinical practice. But that is not always the case. So don't be afraid to settle for something smaller, far smaller, such as 11.2 and so forth or three and four. until you build your academic profile and publishing is, is absolutely terrifying. It is a tour de force as you do it because nobody takes you through a scientific paper is an essay and I know it's a sim a simplification of what we're talking about, but a scientific paper is an essay. It's got an introduction, it's got all the middle, which is the methods, the results and the discussion. And then you've got a conclusion, that's all it is. It is an essay and the way I usually will put it forward in terms of how you want to structure is that is really important. They think about which journal you want to publish in because each journal might have different guidelines that you want to take into account. So you want to start with your introduction, you introduce the theme of your research, why you've done the research? So within 2 to 3 paragraphs. You want to convince people why the research, why this is an important issue that needs researching. Why have you conducted a specific type of research? And what is your question? Your methods and results seem to be very concise and very dry. Unfortunately, you need to in the methods section, you need to be able to explain plainly and clearly which often the vast majority of papers don't do how you conduct a your research. It must be so clear that if someone read your method, section of your published paper, they will be able to replicate the exact same study at a different center without ever talking to you. So that's how plainly clear needs to be nothing hidden. Um And this is quite difficult to do. Your results should simply introduce and summarize your results themselves and then the discussion should debate these results, but you shouldn't be calling back on your result back and forth. So in your discussion, you can call as many points as you want, of course, but you shouldn't introduce any new points as part of your conclusion. And this is very important as you submit it as part of your submission to a journal. You also usually include a letter, that letter linked to your paper is really important to sell to the editor because a lot of editors will receive so many submissions constantly and all they can read is not even the abstract of your of research of your submitted paper or they can read is the letter and in that letter, you need to convince why your specific piece of research should be published in that journal. Why is it relevant to their audience? Why is it relevant to dissemination widely? And why is that specific journal? The right one for your uh for your research? If your editor decide to take it further, then it usually be sent to two independent reviewers. And that's what I was talking about in review one and review two. And there could be a number of outcomes but we can debate um the issues with reviewers two comments in er somewhere else. I strongly recommend going on Twitter or not called A. Um I think is reviewers two is literally called reviews two. It was absolutely fascinating. People just post their frustration there and then you go into editing and publishing, which is another headache in itself. So we've already spoken about a little bit of this all the way across um your timeline of research. You'll be able to apply for award and prizes. For example, there's a final year, no, there's now a final year student that did a in leeds that did an MS research looking at something in COVID patients. I can't exactly remember what he was. He was the youngest person. He's absolutely brilliant, really humble guy. Um He was the youngest person to ever be published in the Lancet and he's been recently awarded a prize, er, by his university. So that's, that, that's really incredible. But you'd be surprised what you're able to do. So how do you get these, um, these opportunities? Um, how do you get these in, er, opportunities? Think about, actually I'm gonna skip here before we do think about how you want to balance yourself. Um, these are some of my closing reflections before we step forward because everything is applicable to your job publications right now. As a medical student, you're training to be a doctor. So think about the doctor you want to become, once you're a foundation trainee, think about the registrar that you want to become. Once you're a registered, think about the consultant you want to become and every sta stage of the way don't simply be whatever label you have. You're never just an fa one, you're never just the junior register on call, never. You're always going to be someone in the future and it's about process of growth. And I know it feels quite tiring to think about it that way, but it's really important. Think about your li life balance, your time is finite. You cannot, that you cannot create more time in that you need to be able to sleep, please. I really hope that all of you sleep 7 to 8 hours a day. I don't. Uh but II really hope you do. Um And that's really important, you will find your own balance and throughout your training these opportunities either in medical school. Later on when you're able to understand what balance of clinical commitments you want. At the moment. I think that my balance between academia and research will be well set at 20 5%. So I'm doing 75% of my time as a clinical physician, clinical neurosurgeon and then 25% of my time as an academic neurosurgeon brilliant. I think that's going to work. It might actually be there in real practice and don't like that. And there's a number of challenges in that you'll meet in your field, a number of perfectionists and you need to find your, you need to fight your own perfectionism because no paper is ever gonna be perfect. No submission is ever gonna be perfect. Research is never perfect. Even if you look at the best drone and the leave it randomized controlled trial, they're never going to be perfect and perfectionism. One of the things that everyone talks about as dead, the biggest flaw whenever it comes to an interview, which is at Bos is not a thing. Perfectionism is actually one of the biggest enemies in high achieving professionals such as ourselves. So if you are conscious that you are a perfectionist as an individual, become conscious of it and try to fight against it because it actually will ease off your bed and how much time you're wasting in trying to ensure that everything is perfect. Networking is incredibly important. And I've always struggled because despite who, who I met some of you that I met in person, despite me being really talkative, I'm also slightly more introvert than I realized and like my own time. And am I going to, to conferences? I just wanna sit at the back of the room, listen to the lecture and then walk off and do whatever it is that I want to do. But networking is desperately needed. So, for example, I reached out to my current future supervisor in Birmingham. When um a few months prior to the application itself, I found myself invited by my supervising leads to attend a nationwide workshop to try and figure out what to do with patients with low grade gliomas because it, it is a diagnostic challenge. It is a trimming challenge for patients with, for er neurosurgeons. We know what to do to the point of resecting the tumor for the first time. And the moment it comes back, we have no idea what to do. We have literally have no evidence and no single research center, no single unit can deliver this. We need to be able to collaborate. And that's where I met my supervisor. That's where I also realize, for example, the challenge from a clinical perspective of treating these patients. So networking is incredibly important and I'll be surprised they actually had not recognizing my name at a time that when we were in that room working together. Um might not be a barrier. For example, my ii wonder whether she's been more prone to help me after the application process than otherwise it might have been. And I'm really looking forward to working with her, for example. Um Make sure that when you're meeting colleagues, you setting out your expectations for yourself and then make sure that you know, where you want to get out of that and you can apply to everything else. For example, I was talking to one of my registrars um before they changed over to a new boss to a new firm. So they're working on a number of consultants as part of, for example, cranial spinal neurosurgery in leeds. And we were talking about is like, uh you have no work done cranial for some time. Would you want to get out of it? I was like, I haven't thought about it. It's like, but I know these boss expects were a lot and he will ask me that question. It's like, well, think about it, what do you want to get out because he will deliver it for you? But at the same time, you need to ask what he wants of you because if he's gonna train you in doing more awake, craniotomies, for example, what he's gonna want of you. And it's really important with my supervisor, my very first supervisor doing that laboratory based research in as a summer project. I was very clear with him. I want to gain some early exposure. So I want to demystify what research is actually like especially laboratory based research. And eventually he delivered for me because he said to me, look, my expectations of these is that you do these data collection and if you want, I will get you published. And we did, we wrote my very first publication that made me jump out of joy was straight through in terms of a literature review, straight through the review is down to being published. I was like, oh my God, that's incredible. And of course, he uh he was also surprised, but it was absolutely important at that point that we, we set out expectations for ourselves. If you, regardless of where you find yourselves in medicine, um you will challenge yourself or you can decide to sell through and do the bare minimum to just be a clinician. I think the fact that you're here tonight, you're thinking about research and what kind of research you might want to become is, is, is, is a sign if you're wanting to, to start research, but do challenge yourself. I think research pushes doing so, for example, we there's, there's a whole new world of artificial intelligence that is currently opening up. Big data is possibly the next frontier. And it's something that I think it is definitely the next frontier because it's something that was discussed for an entire half day at the uh meeting that I attended for the British Society of Neuron College, we know that patients need, we need patients data and we know that it, that's one of the ways we can develop new better models to diagnose people as well as predict prognosis. That's really important. So you'll be able to challenge yourself. There will be new skills that you need to learn whether it's encoding um aging population and so forth. But it is hard, it is hard because um it is a white male stream male dominated field. It still remains the case. And I'm really sorry to say that. Yeah, it is not inclusive. It is not a straightforward feeling in which to train because you often encounter that people are want are wanting to get keep information from you, especially if you don't look the same. I'll be honest, I've not been prohibited. I don't think I've been prohibited opportunities from being Italian for being a queer man for wanting to be in neurosurgery. I don't think that that has actually ever happened. I've had unpleasant comments but does not prohibit me from, from being able to advance further, but you will need to be able to develop proceedings especially with the failures. Um You'll be facing additional competition in terms of applying for jobs because you need to apply twice for a clinical component and an academic component. You have loads of resilience from being rejected from papers multiple times or another rejection. Oh, well, let's mourn on this let's have a little bit of grieving and let's get cracking on next stage. But it's really important that you build that. And actually the one thing that I've not included here, perhaps this comes under life balance, make sure you have the right networking around you in terms of family, friends, people that understand what it is that you are doing because it is really challenging, not only in medicine but also in academia. Um especially when you, when you're really wanting to work hard to improve, not only the CAVA for patients, but actually the outcomes for patients, it can be absolutely heartbreaking. Um So do you, do you think about that as well? I hope this is what you were expecting for us to talk about today. I appreciate that we're five minutes past eight, but I'm more than happy to answer any questions if you, if you guys are still awake and sticking around. Hi. Um I was just wondering uh well, firstly, thank you for taking time to speak to us. Um But in pursuing um care in research, I was just wondering if you felt you've had to sacrifice anything that you wouldn't have if you took a more traditional route and if that ever like plays on your mind. Um Like for example, you spoke about uh the work life balance, like, how's that? What's that like? Um you'll probably come across um I'm gonna stop sharing my screen. So um not that I perhaps want to look at a lot on my face but um you'll probably come across some of the memes um on Instagram as like, oh, I'm gonna go out for the weekend, weekend. What it is for healthcare? I think that's probably the one that resonates the most for me. Um Time is the one thing that I have sacrificed the most. So for example, my dad was unwell at the beginning of the year. Had to take time out from, um not from training, but I had to step away, had to request time to be able to visit him and to be able, for example, to sort things out. Um, recently moving, I think time is the one thing that you sacrifice the most and that and that summarize it best. Um There are things that I would have liked to have done otherwise. So you can't do it all. That's, that's the one thing that I'll probably tell you, you can't do it all and whoever tells you that you can do it all, they're lying because they're not doing it all. Um So my passions were, for example, in, um playing music, playing the piano and clarinet, I dropped learning the piano because I simply don't have time to do so. And the reminder of my piano currently sat in the corner that just stares in me for the past three years is painful. It's a pain, very expensive, painful experience. Um But to the other extent, it was also, for example, um I would like to train as a mu music conductor for an orchestra because it's something that I've always been passionate about. And that is also because it doesn't pay very well unless you're really good, but that's kind of gone down the drain. So there's a couple of things that I might have not dedicated as much time to. I think the reality is you can either do one thing and be 100% at it or do multiple things and multitasking and do it all and just accept, you're not gonna be 100% at it. Because if you look at Usain Bolt, if you look at Louis Hamilton, whoever they might be, that's all they do, isn't it? And the reality is that in clinical Edem, especially with the strain on resources, you will make those sacrifices. I think the biggest sacrifice in being able to accept, I can do it all. Some of the things by accepting to do research, I've decided not to do other things. Um But most importantly, I'm never gonna be the best neurosurgeon that that is able to operate on the most complex tumors that ever existed, such as some of the people that I work with, for example, in leeds and are incredibly incredible operating surgeons because I want to do research because by taking time away from my academic, my clinical training, I will, will not be able to, er, train to the same standards, but likewise, they might not be able, they're probably never gonna be able to conduct as good research as I can. But also I'm never gonna be the best research, the best academic that ever exists because I still want to be able to operate. I'm not willing to give up my clinical practice. I'm not even started. God. Um, so that's something really important. I think that's when the, the biggest sacrifice and, and eventually, when you do realize that you've actually been sacrificing something, you make more time for it, you actually make a conscious effort to say, look, everyone is going on holiday, like the, the UK is not gonna crash down because I have no believe it on a randomized controlled trial. Who cares? All right. Thank you for sharing that. We've got a question in the chat as well. I don't know if you can see it. It says, do you have any advice for networking and finding mentorships if you're not in a location where your specialty of interest is available? University, what site or hospital websites? So you can go about it in different ways, depends on your aptitude to stalking. If you like. That's probably the wrong word. Um I gotten in touch with my current supervisor in leeds through the, er, university website where I found this, you know, and it's publicly available for one reason and that's absolutely fine. Um, so you can go on to the website, see whatever is the nearest hospital to yourselves where to work. Um But also try to investigate what the in a academic interest of that specialty actually is in the first place. So lead is quite academic because of this specific person who is really not remic. And that is actually hinted my progression being, being stuck in a place where I was up scaring myself on my own out of the experiences that I was able to pick up. And yet being in a neurosurgical unit that is not cramming was a massive um Yeah, very disappointing. Let's put it that way. Linkedin. And I know I II really struggle with linkedin. I really do because it feels like a, a place where everyone goes and just pass their own back or well done me for having done this, this amazing thing that I'm gonna make it sound like it's amazing, but actually just really like really plain and routine. Um So it, it's a whole different place, but actually, you do need some good connections. So, um I was working on a systematic review that I cannot wait to get rid of um of the records. Um And we were recruiting a number of people for linkedin actually, and I know a lot of the people. So one of the people that I was thinking about have got over 80 publications because it's been working a lot um for linkedin. So something else to bear in mind. The third level highest level of stalking called the secretaries try to find out where they work by the the university. Sorry, a the hospital get in touch with the secretaries, drop them an email and most importantly, don't be afraid of um of receiving a no for an answer. The worst is going to happen is they're going to ignore you. Um Second worst is they're gonna say no, sorry you don't have capacity. No, I'm not interested. But as you get the, the important thing is when you get in touch, sell yourself in a good way in a good light, which is really important. So when I got in touch with my now supervisor in, in, in Birmingham, I was very clear. Look, I want to do academic neurosurgery and the reason why I know I want to do it is because I've been doing work as a, as a student and it's been really hard to do it in home and I've got an Academy foundation program and I'm now the junior research final needs. But actually these are the things that I've done. My interest is in neuro oncology. I know you're in neur oncology. We met a couple of weeks ago without even realizing we're in the same room. Hi, can we please have a chat? So it's important that when you put it together, not in an five pages essay, but make sure that you sell yourself because what I think I really struggle sometimes even on linkedin cos people will say, oh, this person has presented a neurosurgery. I just get hi. Can we have a chat? I was like, ok, about what or? Hi. Can I work with you? What, what are you able to deliver the reality? Is that as you progress forward, you also realize actually you have a little time to be able to obs skill people and I'm, I'm, I'm really dedicated to try and help where and where I can, but it's really important to understand this is what I want to be able to get out of you. However, what am I being able to bring? So what skills can I add on? And I'm being honest with some people. Look, yes, I know you're keen. I know you're really good, but actually we don't have anything. I'm really sorry, I'll keep in mind. Thank either. Perfect. You're very welcome. Right. I that's all we've got in the chat at the moment. I'll give people a a second if they're frantically frantically typing and trying to get something put through. Um But I just wanted to say uh from, from myself, thank you so much for that. That was a really insightful talk. And I think it, it gave a great breadth of, of knowledge and uh of where people are starting from, which I think is something that is definitely really intimidating, especially like you said, if, if you haven't got anyone in particular that you can look up to or if the people that you are looking up to are far enough ahead that it's difficult to see how they got to where they are. Um So thank you so much for that. Has anyone, if they want to unmute themselves, any other questions that we've got at the moment, that's it. Ok. Um Well, thank you so much again. I really appreciate your time tonight as I'm sure everyone else does um for people that are on the call. My understanding is that if the tech is working, when you finish the call today, you should get a feedback form and on completing that, you'll get a little certificate to say that you've er, attended the webinar and discussed all things research with us. Um So hopefully fingers crossed, if I've set it up, right, that will be what happens next. Um I will stop the recording shortly and if anyone wants to stick around for a question, oh, question about slides, I think we can update, upload those to the platform. If you're happy to do that, I'm gonna take a, like, I'm gonna offload them in terms of the hines and I'll send them to. Not a problem. Super, I will make sure that they will be probably on this link. So if you check back in a couple of days time, they should be, should be here, fingers crossed. Um Perfect. Thank you, everyone. That's come. So we don't have another event in the diary yet. However, we are hopefully going to be launching our new mentorship um scheme and partnership soon. So keep an eye on your emails and fingers crossed. That will be out within the next month, six weeks, I reckon. So thank you again for everyone who's come this evening and I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening. Thank you.