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Thanks, Tessa. Financial planning. It really Josie, I'm so sorry. I accidentally needed you. Apologies. That's okay. Welcome to everyone arriving. And just to let you know, we are recording this session. So if you've got any concerns about that and just let us know or you're more than welcome to leave this is because we're hoping that some of your colleagues might be able to benefit from this session on demand if they haven't been able to sleep tonight. Okay, it's seven minutes past five, and I now know time is very, very precious at the moment. Um, so I'd like to welcome welcome you all to the fifth session in the FMLA training steering group. Sweet of Webinars. Um, we're really, really pleased. Um, I'm excited to have you all here and have such amazing Panelists, um, and workshop deliverers with us this evening. My name is Josie. I am the TSG lead for Wales and also the inclusive leadership lead. Um, and I'm really, really pleased to be bringing this really important topic. Um, for us to all explore this evening, it it's an incredibly expansive topic. So I hope that this gives you a bit of an overview of what it is, what it feels like to you so you can look into it in more depth yourself and find out how you can take this forward within your own leadership journeys. Just some ground rules. We would really, really appreciate it if you could have your videos on. We don't mind if you've got Children in the background. If you've got pets making appearances, if you're kind of getting up and, um, making yourself dinner or getting a drink, um, one of our speaker's really benefits from being able to see people, especially when they're speaking. So that would be just fantastic. If you could enable your cameras, we would ask if you could kindly keep your microphones off. Um, when you're not speaking and just to avoid the kind of, um, echo that we sometimes getting big meetings. Um, so that's about the ground rules from from now on, for those of us just joined us. We are recording this session, so just let us know if you got any concerns about that, and you're more than welcome to leave. So what you can expect from the session tonight is for the 1st 15 minutes or so, we'll be having a really rich panel discussion about inclusive leadership and what that means for us as aspiring and current leaders and also the future senior leaders with in the UK and beyond. And then after that, you've got the opportunity to select from one out of three workshops delivered by are really, really expert, um, workshop facilitators. So those are active leadership, lifting others up and also lobbying with compassion, and they'll start around eight PM We'll try and get you into group uh into the rooms by eight PM Um, so that's essentially what you can expect from tonight, Um, in terms of inclusive leadership. I don't want to speak too much about this because I think that you're really going to benefit from the Panelists that we've got for you tonight. But just to give you a little bit of an overview, we know that inclusive leadership is important. Um, there's been some really, really interesting seminal pieces of work over the last decade or so, some of them not even in medicine but in other sectors. I'd point you towards the Mackenzie and Company reports, and also the Deloitte um group reports which have looked into inclusivity and teams and senior leadership positions. And they show where diversity exists. We get a really, really rich breeding ground for higher performance and greater innovation and less attrition and better well being for all team members. We know that healthcare still has a long way to go. Um, you may have come across work by quite a few leaders who are really pioneering the movement, and we've also got some with us tonight. So, for instance, Judy Makin, Roger Kline and a number of others have published really, really important work in this area, and we can sign post that to you later. So that's why we feel the THD. It's important to bring you this session and to bring you the expertise that you're going to hear from tonight and really, really hope that you enjoy and find it a really rich, um, learning experience for you or so without further ado, I like to hand you over to the panel. Now I know that usually the convention is for someone who's overseeing an event to introduce the Panelists. But I'm very aware that I will have intrinsic biases about how I introduce um, individuals. And what kind of, um, things. I assign them, too, in terms of their roles and responsibilities. So I'd like to invite the Panelists to introduce themselves and choose what really means the most to them. Um, so I can do this in order, if that's okay, and there's no particular order in itself. So, Mommy Dada, would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. Hi, everybody. It's really great to be here. My name is a lot of data. I'm a junior doctor working in Kent at the moment. So I graduated this year, so I'm pretty much a baby in the clinical medical medical space. Aside from that, I need a charity that I'm very, very passionate about. So it's called melanin medics. I've been doing that for the last 4.5 years, and it's been great to see it blossom. Essentially, what we are focused on is promoting diversity, medicine, widening aspirations and aid and career progression, particularly for people of African and Caribbean heritage in medicine. Uh, aside from that, I'm really passionate about the social sector. So social entrepreneurship, young people in leadership, as well as also considering solutions for health inequalities. Uh, so, yes, I hope I introduced myself well enough. Wasn't accepting to go first. Thank you. Thank you for leading the way. Um, and then we've got Katrina shake. Hi, everyone. I'm Katrina. I'm at the other end of the spectrum. So I'm in my final year as a registrar, so I'm ST seven. I don't know where the time has gone. Um, so I'm I'm in, I'm at London. Um, I'm at the raw free. And my specialist skill within acute medicine is leadership and management. So, um and yeah, when if we talk about it more, I can explain how I got into that. Um, so it was something that I didn't choose myself, but having experienced a poor work culture and undermining, um, and I was also, um, a chief registrar for the Royal College of Physicians, which is a flagship leadership program and also a founding ambassador for you. Okay, Doc, which is a mental health charity for doctors, So, Yeah, I have a particular interest in compassionate and caring leadership, and very much so in inclusive leadership. So thank you for having me. It's wonderful to have you here, and then we've got doctor care. Agree. Hi, everybody. My name is Kiera. I, um a young woman working in I'm an F three or F four or something at the minute. Either way, um, currently low coming in general medicine in Northern Ireland, which is where I am based. I'm kind of doing part time work so that I can focus on a lot of extra curricula that I'm working on that the minute one of which is being co chair of glad, which is the association of LGBT Q Plus doctors and dentists in the UK Um, which is something I got into as a final year medic. Um, just, you know, to try and help promote the well being of LGBTQ plus doctors, but also patients. And that's something that we put a lot of effort into, actually is, um, increasing awareness of LGBT specific health inequalities, which I think is, to me one of the important reasons that uh, inclusive leadership works not just for us as a team members, but actually for our patients as well. Um, there's so much evidence that, um, inclusivity in training and in working benefits those those patients as well as the colleagues. That's amazing. Thank you. Know we've got Helen. Great. Hi, everybody. Thank you very much for the invitation to be here this evening. I'm Helen goes. I'm a fairly new consultant. Urologist Chelsea in Westminster Hospital. Um, in terms of my background, um, some of you will know that I'm deaf. I'm very fortunate to have had a cochlear implant. Um, I can't leave co chair the disabled staff network at the trust their work, and we're really keen to make sure that the trust is somewhere where disabled start feel welcome and included. And they'll give you the same sort of opportunities for career promotion as able bodied staff far as well, and, I think, sort of thinking more broadly about the sort of leadership challenge of all of us. I did the clinical fellow scheme to FMLN between 2018 and 2019, and that was a real eye opener to the importance of diversity inclusion not just in creating a suitable work culture where people feel happy and where they're going to drive. But ultimately, just seeing perhaps hand the impact that that also had on patient outcomes as well. So I'm really looking forward to the discussion this evening. Thank you. That's brilliant. Thank you. And then we've got the teeth of the toe. Thanks, Josie. Hi, everyone. My name's Latifah. I'm an S t seven pediatric respiratory registrar. It's a bit of a longer specialty, so I've still got a good 18 months. But actually, right now, I am the interim chair of the representative body at the BMA. That means very little to anyone outside the BMA. But actually, it's, um, one of the four chief officers within the organization. It's quite a new thing for me, actually. In fact, in the BMS history and the first ethnic minority woman, I'm the first junior doctor told this position. Um, And I'm a recent mom, and I think I am the only person who's been pregnant whilst I was a deputy in this role, my priorities are actually your priorities. So the vast number of doctors in the UK and medical students are members of the B M A. Um, and whatever is important to you is important to me. And one of the things I'd like to promote as a chief of officer is that if I can do this in the position I was So a recent mom pregnant during maternity leave and the junior doctor. Anyone can be a chief officer within the BMA. So if there's any, if there's any way I can encourage people or help people, um, to represent themselves and represent their colleagues, I'd really like to do that. Thank you. Thank you so much. I know, especially your time is very precious in the evening. Is really, really appreciate you being here. We then got committed. Cawthorne, I think, by everyone. Sorry. Just, uh, commuting myself and fielding telephone calls because my husband just had a hip replacement today. So the world and his wife, including me, are ringing me to try and find out how he's got on which he has got on. He's fine. And I managed to get crash his his hospital bedroom when apparently they're not allowing any visitors. So I managed to get in there and have supper with him when nobody was looking. So so that was good. So I know he's fine. So? So this is the sort of thing that will be dealing with so ever. So sorry about that. Um, So my name is Camilla Hawthorne. I'm a GP in the Welsh valleys one day a week Now have been a GP for over 30 years. But also head of graduate entry medicine at Swansea University and a Bevan commissioner. And I can tell you about the Bevan commission another time if you're interested. Um, I'm on the trustee board for FML M. Um, and I suppose over the years have learned a lot about leadership, both good leadership and bad leadership. So I'm looking forward to leading the workshop later. Thank you. Thank you very much for being here. And I'm really, really glad you've got good news today. Um and you've got a and sorry you got Hannah Bar and Brown. Thanks. Hi, everyone. I've had a bar and brown I wear probably party many hats. Um, so I'm on the council of the BMA and I'm a former deputy chair of the Junior Doctor Committee. I'm a GP registrar. I'm kind of a portfolio GP registrar, which I don't think is meant to exist, but I kind of made it happen because alongside that I, deputy leader of the Women's Equality Party in the UK as of last week, I am a candidate for the police Fire and Crime Commissioner election in North Yorkshire. So my head is currently on fire, but that's particularly exciting. I'm a wheelchair user, and I have a d h d as well. So I spend a lot of time talking about disability and campaigning around that, Um, yeah, and there's probably other stuff, but I'll be like leading the workshop a bit later on lobbying with compassion, which for a natural redhead is not something that necessarily comes easily. But we'll see what we can do. Thank you. And then we've got to get on high. Then everyone, um, first of all, thank you, Josie, for the invite. And I mean all, um of all the colleagues, all the impressive colleagues that set amongst, um, this evening, I'm getting short for Januvia. Um, British Bangladeshi doctor from a working class background. Went to do medicine naively to solve health inequalities, which never really happened. Um, what do I do? So I'm a clinical fellow at the workforce, um, safety and vaccine team NHS, England. One of my jobs is to help narrow the inequality amongst staff vaccination for covert and flu. Um, I'm also on the b m. A counsel with Hannah and the TIFA. I'm a program director, a small, international NGO, selfless UK where we deliver healthcare in rural villages in Bangladesh, a lot of work that I do around diversity and inclusion is around social mobility, getting people from all different backgrounds to apply and get into medical school so that we have a more diverse, more rich work force in the future that we can all benefit from. Oh, it's brilliant to have you here tonight. Thank you so much. Um, and last, but definitely not least we've got pneumonia. Um, Suji, who's joining us? Have a very busy day at work. So Hi, everyone. Um, lovely to hear all those introductions and to be among such phenomenal people, Um, I'm joining you from the car with my 12 year old daughter in the background who have just collected from net for, um and that's the nature of our lives. So what would I say about me? Um, I am a mother of four, and I'm a single mother of four. It took me a long time to be able to say that out loud. Um, I've been, uh and I am still a hematologist consultant. hematologist. Um, I was medical director and deputy chief executive for a while, and I've just started at North Middlesex Hospital as the chief executive there. I'm also the diversity inclusion lead for the faculty of medical leaders and managers. And I chaired the London e D. I staring, Um, committee, um, in terms of me and my journey and things that I focused on compassionate leadership, huge, important, courageous leadership and curiosity, um, and cognitive diversity that is hugely fed by visible difference, but invisible difference, Um, and courage and curiosity. So important elements, and also particularly for female leaders, the ability to lift as we climb. People talk about glass ceilings. I also talk about glass floors, and I'm sure we'll be discussing a lot of this later on. Good to be here. Oh, it's really fantastic to have you here. Thank you. So this is our panel. Um, As you can see, we've got a huge breadth of experience and interests. Um, so we're now going to move on to, um, kind of opening the discussion. So how it's going to be is that I thought a few open questions. What? I'm really, really keen from all of you who are attending tonight is that you feel able to oppose your own questions. Um, the Panelists, um and also, hopefully we'll have some organic discussions to. So if you are keen to ask a question, you can, either. If you can post a question in the chat, we can pick that up. You're more than welcome when we call to you today, um, it yourself and turn your camera in and speak. If you don't feel able to do that, I'm more than happy to actually pose your questions. The Panelists to I know people have different preferences. Um, also, obviously, it's not ideal being in a webinar situation having a panel. So both Panelists and attendees, we will see how it goes on in terms of who speaks first and so forth. Um, and we'll learn as we go along. Okay, so my first open question and I know I'm very, very privileged because I'm able to be front row in asking my questions first, My first question to all of you was, What does inclusive leadership look like to you? Should I? Well, I can, I can say it from I'll keep it short. So we We've all got different examples of inclusive leadership because we're all in very much different roles. So I'm going to use a simple example of me on the ward round today, for example. So I had a medical student with me. I had a medical support worker with me from abroad, and I also had an F one with me, and, um, yeah, we did The war drowned. Basically. So what is inclusivity? So Yeah, I I include everybody is exactly what it says on the tin. And, you know, and I think, um, you know, showing respect for others, you know, valuing others opinions, um, you know, using a bit of emotional intelligence using the situation around you. If someone you know is feeling a bit uncomfortable or feeling a bit left out, you know why they the ones typing on the computer, for example, and not participating with, you know, in the ward around and with patients. So I took a different approach today and, you know, we took it in turns to see patients, and I could see that some were very apprehensive. And I was like, Look, this is not a test. This is nothing This is just me watching you. And if you just want to ask this patient, how he's doing today is simple question. Asked what he's had for breakfast So basically, just including people that we've done a war drowned together because I have been on ward rounds where I have probably seen 20 patients, but I don't feel included. You know, when I was a junior, I was not asked my opinion. I was not asked what I thought. I, you know, in my head I was like, Why is the consultant not asking that question? But nobody asked me, and I didn't really want to tell them I didn't want to just but in because, you know, there's there's some people who, you know, get told to shut up on a war ground. So I take that approach. You know, I ask every one's opinion, and even when I've assessed the patient, I will say, Have I missed anything? You know, what do you think? And yeah, just just basically being inclusive, exactly what it says, Um, yeah, and I think you know, you get that trust with the team, you get different opinions and we all learn from each other. You know, people forget that even, you know, junior doctors have taken time out. They've done PhDs. And, you know, you've got to respect different backgrounds. I'm a postgraduate, you know, And you've got to you've got to respect a lot of people have done a long journey into medicine. So, yeah, find out who your team are, be inclusive and show respect and value everybody's opinion. So I would add to that I love the way you've summarized that. Um, I think there are two parts to the question that inclusivity and this leadership and as inclusive leaders are, is the responsibility to actively invite difference to the table and to respect what is said. Um and I think, you know, when I look at some of the groups that have been deliberately chosen to make sure we have representation, that is geographical, that is disciplinary from different, different disciplines. Um, different genders. It's actively trying to make sure you have representation. Um, I think there's the respect element. Katrina absolutely important because it's easy to say. Well, fine. We have a table that looks, you know, rich and diversity and difference. But actually, do you listen to what people have to say, and do you respect what people have to say? And do you actively invite those who are more silent to speak? And do you listen with respect where the voices do not sound like yours? So where they're not educated, where they're not formed, where they're not articulated, where they're not necessarily scientific? Do you recognize the opportunity that comes from hearing something that's hugely different from where you have started? And I will always remember Matthew Side and one of the greatest books I've read is that sort of rebel ideas who speaks about the fact that some of the solutions to medical problems come when you're in a space with architects because people think differently. And when you have that at the table that some of the parts is greater than the sum of the individuals? Can I add something slightly different to this so inclusive leadership for me is a hope. It's an aspiration. It really saddens me to say this, but it is a fact that inclusive leadership is not what we have at the moment. It's not what we have in the government. It's not what we have in the N H s. Um, I can I can say it's not what we have in the BMA. It's unfortunate, but I'm certainly hopeful. And if you look at the Panelists today, it is achievable. And one of the things that I'm trying to do in my role and I'm not the only one. So there's three other chief officers were all trying to do this within our organization, being a bit selfish, talking about us. But it starts internally. First is increasing inclusivity. We have to be transparent. We have to be open. We have to be honest and candid, and we have to show people that we can do it. And that's why people in this position, including all of the Panelists, in fact, including everyone in this room, we're all leaders to some aspect been in the profession. We are, And what Nina said so well is you've got to bring people with you, so lift as you climb up, so that that's what I'm thinking about when Josie says inclusive leadership, Thank you. One of the things that I've found over the years is that by being inclusive and encouraging diversity, the richness that comes from that is really quite incredible. And I think somebody has already said that the summer is greater than the parts. Um and you know, one of the greatest areas of job satisfaction I get is finding out what somebody really enjoys doing and then helping them do it. Um, and also having, um, an open mind. If anything. Actually, I I go for diversity. I don't think it's And that's because I've learned over the years how rewarding it can be. Uh, you know, rather than trying to choose same old same old all the time or do same old, same old? Um, certainly. Where I am in Swansea, we have a fairly homogeneous population. They're mostly white. Welsh. Um and so but But the NHS representation is not mostly white. Welch. Um And so for me, inclusivity has involved encouraging my colleagues within the medical school my colleagues in the NHS to come and work in the medical school as well as encouraging students. Um and certainly, you know, events like George Floyds murder last year had a huge impact on everybody across the globe, but also a huge impact on Swansea. Um, and actually for me was a fantastic opportunity to be able to, uh, even more justify why, you know, rather than appearing as an angry black woman who wants to sort of change the world, I was able to say, Look, we're all in this together and this is everybody's everybody's job and we should all be doing it together. And, you know, the whole mood had changed because of what happened last May, and we were able to use that very much to the benefit. I think of the students, the curriculum and the staff. I just wanted just to echo what Nina was saying about the importance of actually listening to other people. So I don't know whether any of you have her may have been the Omaris because she works a lot with marginalized communities and I will never forget hearing her speak and say There's that phrase that you hear about patients who are difficult to engage. But actually, the reality is is that you know, when you look at it properly, actually easy to ignore. And I think you know, that really highlighted the importance of actually making sure that we listen to voices that are different than ours. Um, making sure that we include patients in service were design, service development, all of these sorts of things, I think, as leaders we can very guilty of just thinking of inclusivity. Looking at the staff group around us and actually forgetting that primarily but we're here for is to get the best outcome from patients. And doing that involves list into patients and listening to patients who may come from very different backgrounds up listening to patients who may not have the privilege of a kind of education or the language background that we have. And I think is part of that sort of them coming on a bit to sort of my own experience, actually making the appropriate adjustment so that those individuals can be fully included so that that's by including, you know, translated by including community workers and when we're organizing events and things, making sure, for example, that those who have additional needs of disabilities are also provided for. So whether that's you know, I'm sure all of you have indicates that the Israeli energy minister, who wasn't able to get into the cop 26 of it because it wasn't really sure accessible. That's just a four 2021 these sorts of things still happen. So I think for me, sort of actually making sure that people are included means thinking about what do I need to do? What do I need to provide to make sure that they can be fully included and that their voices can be heard? If I can just add one really quick thing? Because I think often inclusion is kind of like the add on after equality and diversity. It's always e D I. And you do the Equality box and take diversity box and you can like and inclusion, Um, but actually, I think it is hugely important. It's like kind of like not just getting you into the party but inviting you to dance element. I rock some shapes in my chair on the dance floor, just fyi, um, but I think it's It's so much about that kind of accepting an inviting everybody in but also acknowledging that it's not about that tick box exercise we see so often in this work. Have we got a woman tick? Have you got a purse color tick? Have you got a queer person tick? Have you gotten your divergent person tick and nobody ever sits there going right? What about the intersectional experience? And if anyone here hasn't read the work of Professor Kimberly Crenshaw, Go read it. It's amazing. Intersectionality has to be at the center of everything we do in the EDI world. And so, yeah, I don't want to just be there as the token woman or the token disabled person. I want to talk about my experiences as a queer, disabled woman. Um, and how that influences my experiences of space and how that influences the care. I potentially provide my patients and they're like, experiences that I'm able to reflect. So I think it has to be really kind of broad concept and not just that. Add on that we kind of remember when we go E d and Oh, yeah, I, which happens a lot, I think, um, I just wanted to build on what Helen actually said, Um, for me leadership. I'm more interested in leadership in my community rather than leadership in the N h s, um, and leadership in healthcare. And I suppose you could argue they go hand in hand, But I live in the community that I work in and the community I was born in and a story I'd like to share is the experience of British Bangladeshi people during the pandemic. In June 2020 a PhD paper came out saying British Bangladeshis were the highest risk of dying from coated 19, and we were one of the groups that were that had the lowest uptake of the vaccine. And so I had the privilege of working with some incredible leaders across the country, not just in the h s, but local authority in policy in all different sectors. To bring that number up, to bring that up, take um to a level that we were satisfied with. Um, for me, it's about ownership and empowerment, listening to people and, like Katrina said, listening to people's opinion and empowering them and making sure they feel like they own, um, own the piece that they're working or not own their own opinion. Does that make sense? Yeah, And so, yeah, like I was able to work with people who really wanted to hear my personal view from my life. Experience is not just my clinical experience or how long I've been a doctor or what what qualifications I have, but actually listening to what I think are the solutions to help people who come from my background, and that's what it is, listening and empowering people. And I'll just quickly add, I agree with everything that's been said thus far, But I think what I think of inclusive leadership, it's it's not something that's always going to be comfortable, you know, And that's why I really like what was mentioned earlier regarding respect. You know, it's it's not just, I see it's not just I hear you, but it's also I respect you. I respect your opinion. At the very least, um, and I also think that we have to look beyond ourselves. So I consider who is it that you know? We're not just automatically considering when we're making this decision when we're putting this in place or when the services been rolled out to whoever is around and paying attention to that. So it does require some emotional intelligence like Katrina mentioned earlier, and and it's not always going to be comfortable, but it is always necessary. Does anyone else have anything that I had before I start talking? I don't want to talk over anyone? Um, just some really, really amazing thought provoking comments. And I think this just shows the power of diversity a little bit like a professor. Hawthorne said, um, you've all brought different perspectives and insights the table. So I'm kind of picking up on something that Hannah was saying in terms of things shouldn't be tick box like, And I suppose, as inclusivity lead of a group who tries to lift up the importance of junior doctors as leaders. I suppose something that Cameron, through my mind, is being conscious of a tic box and also, you know, recently on social media, You are, um I have people providing insights in terms of whether stay active. So I'd like to ask a potentially controversial question for some people that okay, So in terms of training leadership, we know in medical leadership, we know senokot box lens. It doesn't look diverse. It doesn't look inclusive at the moment. And there's been a lot of work in terms of from some leader Athena Charter and things like that. If we're looking at training leadership, although there's less data, um, it also seems to suggest that there is an element of, um, whether trainee leadership is inclusive enough at the moment whether it shows the diversity that we all want to see. Um so my question to all of you is how can we make junior doctor leadership inclusive and diverse? Um, and lead the way. Um, I think that's a good question. Um, and I think one of the first places you start is what you was saying about. You've got to lift people up as well and like it can be hard from when you're not in leadership to try and encourage other people towards leadership. But like there's a real, I think, responsibility of people who are currently in leadership to try and encourage as many people as possible to just think of themselves as leaders, because I think that's often what happens. Um, you know, especially among women. I think women as a cohort don't tend to see themselves as as leaders that that much, or they don't tend to see themselves as having any particular authority or having a voice that's, you know, worth hearing more than anybody else's, and by listening by, including by showing your respect for people, I think you start to you know, those are the foundations upon which we build somebody that understands that they have something worth saying. Um, and I think, you know, take boxes are, uh they're not great as a sort of stand alone, but I think they you know, there's nothing wrong with, um, considering the tick boxes as long as you're not doing it just to take a box. Like, as long as you know, if you're thinking, actually, we would really love I don't know the voice of somebody disabled or trans or whatever in this. Um, as long as you're doing it from a place of, like, genuine, we want to hear those voices than or God forbid, we look at if we don't care, Um, then you know that there's different ways of approaching it. Well, not blabber. Thank you. Um, So there's a concept that's been kicking around for a little while that I really have started to believe in. And that's reverse mentoring. And, you know, I only came across this concept about a year ago, and it's basically a person in a senior leadership role being mentored by someone who someone else in their organization who is different to them who's not in a senior leadership role. Um, say, for example, your A chief executive, an organization. And you're being mentored by, um, a British Bangladeshi junior doctor who? British Bank C F one. And, um, I find the concept works really well, you know, we have to appreciate that we won't know everything. I'm a I'm a heterosexual man. And you know, I won't ever really understand the barriers. People who aren't heterosexual or mail will face unless I actually sit down and speak to people who come from other backgrounds, um, and really appreciate those obstacles or their view of the organization or of the task that I'm trying to accomplish. So that's something that I, I really do believe in. And I do think that's a way forward for inclusive inclusivity or diversity in junior doctor leadership. Another concept as well as quotas. I know we're talking about tick boxes, but I really do believe quotas are a starting point that we can, um, we can go towards to to achieve this and having people, um, in some and rolls because they meet a certain criteria isn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, if we can't see people in these roles, and we can't ever aspired to go towards or apply for those roles. It's exactly what Latifah was saying earlier. You know, she she's in the same organization that I'm in as well, and I see her in the leadership role, and I know she's on the in the audience. I can see her smiling now. Um, but you know, she didn't achieve that through a quota. But essentially, if you can't see someone in a particular role, then how are you ever gonna aspire to go towards that role? So can I. Can I add to the thinking? I do think, and you've all touching it in different ways. There's something about role modeling. Uh, there's something about the responsibility for encouraging people to be different and to celebrate that. And I always think the joy of knowing people are the stories that they bring. Um, I think there is something about encouraging people who look different, who sound different to be part of various groups, and that is important whether that's a tick box or not. But I think that the spirit of that is probably more important. So if you look at me. Everyone looks at me and they see a black woman. What you don't see is that I actually I'm very privileged. I was well educated by parents who thought that was really important. I'm born in Aberdeen. My parents are Nigerian. I grew up in the Caribbean. I consider myself a child of the world. So it depends on what you see and how you represent that in all you're thinking. I think there's also something, uh, important about not just the stories that that people hold, but ensuring that we're giving people the courage to speak up because there's no point in having people who look different, none of whom is willing to say something different at the time. And this is part of the just and safe culture that we're talking about as well. Um, people need to be able to raise concerns. People need to be able to be heard when they raise those concerns. Um and then from a junior doctor, perspective is interesting. And I feel I'm probably too old to answer some of this, Um, but I'm looking around the room today and thinking, Oh, my goodness, there's so much hope for the future. Look at what amazing talent and amazing success from so many people who are so young. So you guys are the role models. We'll be looking to, uh, for the future. Gingy mentioned me, so I'm going to come in, if that's okay. I nipped out actually, to put my baby back to bed, and it worked, which is amazing. Um, I think we need to demand it as many doctors, you know, you said it's so well, if you look at this room right now, the diversity, the inclusion, equality say that is phenomenal. If this workshop was 2030 years ago, this would not be the panel. Josie, you would probably not be leading the DC TSG. It's lovely that you are. Maybe you would have been, But the panel would not look like this. And something that I'm constantly reminding myself is, as I said, I'm a role model whether or not I like it and be in my house if anyone has been, uh, excuse myself for seeing the BMA so much. But that's the home I know. Sad, isn't it? But there's big big boards with all these names and all of the names are Caucasian, but more than that, the names are all male men. Name's not women. And yet there's my name. And I know that I won't be the only junior doctor. And I know I won't be the only ethnic minority. And I know I won't be the only woman because before me to women came way before. Then another woman came. Nothing would give me more joy than when I actually stand for chair, which will be in June 2022. If I am opposed by women by junior doctors by people who are pregnant people on maternity leave. That would bring me so much joy because when I stood for election, I stood against six men and there were two elections, and of them there were 10 men and me. So I think we need to demand it because we're right. We're the generation that are going to get it right. And the senior leaders, they've got it a little bit wrong because we just need to look at those leadership board to recognize that, um, so yeah, no, your value and know that you're right and demand inclusivity. I think if I can, I just want to add from what she was saying about reverse mentoring. I think that's also really important is that we moved not only from entering, but to sponsorship. And there's a big difference there. So mentoring great. Yeah, support Junior is wonderful. Be nice impact on the head, telling doing a great job. That's lovely, but actually as oh, my computer just my cats lying on my keyboard So you keep disappearing. Um, but actually, I think there's something really important about actually actively saying I'm no, actually, I'm going to ask somebody else to do this. I got this person who's really fantastic. Can they come and speak at this panel? There's something really powerful about looking at a panel you've been advised to speak at and go. Actually, you don't need another white woman on this panel, so I'm going to recommend this amazing woman of color I know and get hurt. He just wants to join in now and get her to come and speak to you instead because I think that's far more important. And as sponsors, I think you have a really important role, and I know I'm only doing what I'm doing because one of Latifah's predecessors, Anthea, When I first turned up, the BMA was kind of like this building is inaccessible. Come and show us how to change that and then said right, you need to get on this group we get you into What can we get you to do here? And it was somebody actively pulling me in, going. Yeah, you can do that. And I've never seen a doctor in a wheelchair, let alone a doctor in the wheelchair in the BMA. But somebody actually pulling me in and going Not only can you do this, but I'm going to make you was probably what I am here today. So I think we need to kind of extend from mentoring to sponsorship. And if anyone wants to read anything great about quotas, I don't always agree with Jess Phillips. But her book every woman rights really excellently about why quotas are still needed. So, yeah, I like to get that reading list. That's the thing. I, um if anybody else wants to speak good for because I appreciate I've already spoken, but one of the other things, as you were talking I was reminded of is, um, one that in terms of tic boxes. We need to be really careful that we don't put the people that so our agenda into those tic boxes, because it's really easy to see. You know, for example, maybe Thatcher, you know, she was a woman, but, like, did she really represent women? Was she a good voice for women? Or you can see plenty of people, Um, in certain governments across the world where they pull up, the one person who will stand there and say, Oh, well, I don't know, racism has never affected me or, you know, homophobia has never affected me. Um, and then there's the government or whoever will stand there and say, Oh, well, look, that person is gay and says that homophobia is not a problem. Um, and so these tic boxes, um, you know, thinking back to what I said earlier, as long as it comes from the right place and again, you know, you can't just say tick. That's that person you know. That's that Minority dealt with done as well, like as you can see here. And I think it's fantastic making perhaps a few assumptions. But the majority of the people on this panel are women. Uh, and I think that's actually brilliant. Um, and you like, you know, it's not as if there's just one woman on the panel and one, you know, black person or one other ethnic minority. Um, and like, you know, you got you can only you have to respect that. There are different voices within, you know, minority communities, and try and listen to them all just quickly. Jump in and sorry. So I think I was thinking about entry points when you mentioned the question. So what? What was one of the ways that people can kind of enter this fear? My claim to fame is Melanie. Medics. I literally had no desire to be a leader within kind of medicine when I started medical school. Um, but it was three Melanie medics that we got to deliver a workshop at one of the BMA conferences and I was like, Wow, like, oh my God, I didn't know this world exist and it's something that I was very interested in. I met Ginny, and then I got involved in the Healthcare Leadership Academy and that opened my eyes as well. And it's those things like that. So I think we do need to kind of recognize the nontraditional, uh, you know, route with in leadership. And when you see somebody who shows that potential, really just nurturing that within them. I loved what had said about sponsorship again. I think it was the B m a r M that I went to two years ago. I met the chair of the American Medical Association, and at that time she was the first black female to hold that position, and she gave the best advice ever. Much as you need allies, you need mentors and you need sponsors. And she broke down the difference between all three. And I've been fortunate to benefit from that. And it's good that I'm able to identify which people are my allies, which people are my mentors and who are my sponsors. So, yeah, I think we should really consider how people are able to actually access these spaces, and I also come in then. So I suppose I represent that senior leadership that Latifah was talking about in the Royal College of GPS. And certainly I qualified in 1984 so a long time ago. And for a couple of decades was aware that there were more and more, um, be a be graduates coming through, but I couldn't see them anywhere. So whenever I went to college functions, I didn't see many, if any. If I went to the conference, I didn't see many. If I went to the college itself, I became an MRC GP examiner. In those days, I didn't see any or hardly any, but I kept looking over my shoulder. Think, Well, where are they? I know they're they're you know they're out there somewhere. But where Where are they? Because I can't see them. In the last few years, you're all appearing, which is fantastic. There's a lost generation between me and you of people, but you're all there, and it's just fantastic to see you. Uh, and I think you're supporting each other as well as other people supporting you. And certainly, in my case, there's been a lot of white people who supported me and white males who supported me as well as others. So, you know, I think it's the idea of mentorship and sponsorships really important, because I think for the kind of, um, more kind of traditional mainstream white male. My my husband is a white male who grew up in this country and went to Cambridge and is part of the whatever establishment, you know, he just cannot see it. He doesn't see that all he has to do is to walk into a room, and he has immediately got an aura and the persona. But I actually have to work to get anywhere near, um and he just cannot just cannot see it. Um, but I think, you know, we're all in that situation, and I think it's what I'm seeing now, though, is just fantastic. Seeing so many diverse people coming through with a voice, they're not just coming through, whereas the generation before you, I don't know where they've gone, They're they're still not really out there. I just wanted just to follow up on from what both of the media and camera have said about sponsorship and role modeling and encouraging other people. We've had a few people talk about things like the ERCP chief budgets are Scheme Healthcare Leadership Academy. I've done the clinical village scheme to MLM. There's several people have been involved with the B m A and I think for those of us who have had the privilege of those sorts of opportunities, I think it's really important that that were left as we climb and to identify people who have that sort of potential who maybe from non traditional background and to encourage them to apply for these sorts of opportunities because we know that they're out there and we know how much we benefited from those opportunities. And I think it's really important that particular junior doctors, if we want to see that diversity of leadership continue and rather our careers, we need to make sure that we are encouraging people from all different backgrounds from geographic backgrounds, different ethnic minority and different sexual orientations men and women. Just to make sure that everybody who has that potential has the opportunity and doesn't feel that, you know, they can't put themselves all these opportunities. I think also we have to appreciate that taking part in some of these opportunities is a massive privilege itself. And as we as we progress further, we need to appreciate that some of the some of the more junior colleagues coming through may take a completely different an alternative, unorthodox route into leadership. And that might be different to how all that is different too. How people go into leadership 2030 years ago. And a lot of us as junior doctors may have faced some resistance at some point in our training, when we tried to explain to senior colleagues that we were doing all these things. And when we become senior colleagues, it will be very different to how we experienced these early leadership opportunities. Yeah, just just a quick point, because I've been a bit quite, um so, yeah, I'm going to say how I lied to, you know, we're talking about kickboxing. Um, you know, in acute medicine, for example, um, I mentioned earlier that we have to do a specialist skill. And I remember just picking the easiest one. Um, you know, there was. There's lots of different things you could do from medical education to ultrasound. Um, two, I don't know, stroke medicine. And I just thought, Which one can I do quickly and which can be a tick box like that? And and like I said, I had a bad experience at work. Um, where obviously I was undermined. And, you know, um, I witnessed such poor leadership, Um, and that I fell into leadership and management. And I remember just skimming over that specialist skill because, like you said, I thought it was just the people I knew who were in who did. Leadership and leadership and management in medicine were, you know, the males predominantly, because some of my consultants I know you had done that specialist skill, and I didn't want to. I actually said to my supervisor, So I don't want to get involved with the politics. I don't like that. I just want to come to work, treat my patients and go home and actually what I've like Helen said, you know, having the opportunity to do you know, Chief Registrar, I have just met such like minded individuals and where we all want we we all have the same respect for one another. We all want the same goals, and the NHS is a very big organization, and it's not. You cannot change it overnight, but talking what I benefit is is literally I sound like jello here, but to keep it really because literally talking about my failures, like getting into medical school, my failures passing exact you know and how long it took me and what I experienced at work and how I turned it all into a positive. It literally just came from being honest, and I don't like the word leader. And I had this chat with Partner who's parked the car, who's one of my friends and he, you know, he likes, you know, he's quite into that leadership role, and he's quite old school in that respect. And he knows that, Um, and we had a discussion on Twitter about being a hero and a leader and what you know, there's there's differences and don't confuse the two. But I don't like seeing all Katrina. You're a leader and you're an emerging leader. I'm just Katrina and I like I don't mind like you see, someone said about role models, whether we like it or not. I am a registrar, and I know that Junior's will look up to registrars like I look up to consultants, so we definitely do have that leadership position. But it's Yeah, I think you don't want to abuse it. You don't want to. So I've done a chief registrar, you know, Program called me the chief you know, it's nothing like that. It's It's actually, you know, that course and doing a PG certain in leadership has actually taught me a lot about emotional intelligence. A lot about the different styles, a lot about different personalities, and yeah, and inclusivity. So, um, yeah, I just I think you know when you've got such an honest story or a background, I think Jean, you mentioned it like, you know, um, you know, knowing what other people experience just hearing other people's stories Because I think and that's the same goes for patients. If you actually actively listen to other people's opinions, then you have that report and that respect and everything just comes natural. You don't even need to try. Um, And you you just you know, you have that mutual understanding with each other. So yeah, that's what I wanted to add. Katrina, Can I can I jump in? I think you said to really important things. I wanted to highlight. One is about vulnerability, and the other is about lead early versus leadership. Um, and I think from a vulnerability point of view, and I have to just admit this is my personal journey and It's an ongoing journey. How important it is for us, um, as visible people, um, to be able to share the fact that we didn't get here easily, uh, that, you know, we fell, We picked ourselves up. We have people who helped us that we were vulnerable. And I remember there is a brilliant author brain a brown who talks about the courage of vulnerability. And you can stand up and listen to someone talk about their trials and tribulations, and your heart swells with empathy. But for you to stand up and do the same, you start thinking that shows me as weak and what I've learned. And as I move forward in life, I learn more and more. It is so important for us all to share those stories of our failures as well as our success is so to highlight the vulnerability which I think you picked up on your second point about, you know, the title of leaders. An interesting one. Um, and I have four Children. I have two boys of 20 and 15 and girls of 12 and 11. I will tell you each and every one of them is a leader. You're a leader in the choices you make, uh, in the things that you say and the silence is you choose. So we were talking about kindness and particularly, you can imagine young girls. Um and you know, my daughter explained to me when they're having their little tiffs, how she is kind, and I say, Well, I'm not sure that was kindness. You need to have active kindness. So I think there's something about, um, leaders not necessarily being titled, Um, but about the choices we make to be lead early in what we do every day. And I think those are two really important points of me. And I just wanted to highlight, so I cannot believe how time has flown. It's one minute past eight, and I can see we've got two people with their hands up. I'm conscious that our workshops where do you to begin? Eight? Um, I suppose an ad hoc moment. I could ask the workshop facilitators whether you think that you need the 30 minutes or whether we can squeeze in one or two questions, it's completely up to you. I'll speak to me and Sarah and say, we're fine to give you some more time. It's not a problem at all. She's not here to argue, so it's fine. What do you think? I think. Like I said, I think it's important that other people have the opportunity to engage in a discussion. So I'm very happy for the people to ask questions I agree with. I agree with you. That's wonderful. Thank you. They just popped up in the last couple of minutes so I can see that. Ambrose, you had your hands at first. Did you want to meet yourself and pays your question to are amazing Panelists. Oh, yes, it's more or less. Uh, well, a comment. I have been involved. I just like the context of the discussion, the scope of the discussion on inclusivity, uh, resonance a lot with myself, having, uh, experienced, uh, medicine in different continents. Also, uh, the fact that I have seen it all in terms of, uh, gender, race, ethnicity, specialty, Aetna, me and I've listened to a whole range of view about your experiences in terms of the maybe the question now, in terms of aspiring to leadership positions outside of the traditional roots, how are we? How is the, uh Academy, Uh, kind of encouraging people who may not have followed the traditional route to aspire to achieve, uh, leadership positions, especially, uh, people who are from the minority groups of people with special characteristics. Thank you. Uh huh. I can talk about certainly about my experience and my organization. Well, the organization that I'm an elected senior elected member of the B M A, um, one of the most brilliant things about the B m. And there's a number of people here from the organization is that we are a reflection of the people that we represent, not right at the top of the leadership. But we are getting their Hannah, Sarah Helen Jingle. You've all been part of the organization. And you're here today, um, that there are so many leadership positions within the organization so you can choose your passion. That's probably what I'd say if you're not in leadership already, choose your passion and almost run with that. So, within our organization, we've got a board of science. We've got medical ethics committee. We've got local negotiating committees where you're you know, you've got to be passionate about the people that you work with, that you want to represent. I also chair the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group. You can put yourself up for that. So I think the general advice I'm giving is that there are a lot of management and leadership opportunities, uh, to go back to Camilla's comment about what existed in the past and what existed now. One of the things that do exist now is there are a lot more opportunities or a lot more opportunities that are advertised Better, um, look hard and go back to the principles that we talked about. Uh, initially, I think it was on the media who mentioned and find a sponsor. Find an ally kind of mentor, somebody who will help bring them into that position. I have a blog in a doctor's magazine, which is it's a little plug for myself. I don't mean it in that way. I always leave. My email address and my D M on Twitter are always open and really nicely. I get a lot of people messaging me. I sometimes only hear from them once for a one off piece of advice. So I'm happy where you want to contact me, but I'm sure there's a lot of other people on the panel who would be happy to be contacted as well. Um, so yeah, try and find somebody who's happy to lift you up, find your passion and then go for a position because only then will you know whether or not you can be successful. And I'm pretty sure you can be. I also think the general atmosphere has really changed in the last few years. Has really changed. So this is this is the time that we should grab and encourage each other because you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Few who've come before you, I think. Also be okay to get it wrong. Like I've dabbled in pretty much every committee on the BMA I can think of and some of them not for me, some of them awesome. And then I ran away to party politics. And you know what? I've learned a lot from each of those situations, even though I wouldn't necessarily go back and do it again. So, yeah, I think it's about kind of throwing yourself and knowing that you're not necessarily going to find the perfect role for you first time. But that doesn't mean that you're not meant for leadership and management. I think that's really important that people recognize that sometimes I think also, just don't underestimate how much everybody else is winging it like you can look at other people and be think, Wow, they're amazing. But, like we're all just skating along, just fingers crossed that it's going okay, like, you know, you can do it. I just love that last sentence is that I think it's so apt for the the clothes of our panel discussion. You can just do it. Um, I just wanted to I don't really want to tear us away from this panel discussion because it's just been so amazing. Um, and I hope everyone has enjoyed it as much as I have, but I'm aware that we've got some amazing workshops coming up, so we need to probably move on now. Um, I'd like to thank all the Panelists who have given up the evening time for this. I do not underestimate the amount of sacrifice you have to give to actually give us an hour of your time in the evenings this far into the pandemic with all the commitments. And I imagine very very burdensome in boxes at the moment. Um, and also all the attendees. I know that you're really, really busy, too, with with similar things. So what we're going to do now is moving to our workshops. So there's three workshops and you should have signed it for one out of three so shortly. Hopefully, there should be a breakout pop up window come up, which should allow you to join the workshop that you are. You have signed up for Tessa. Is that the way it's going to work? Yep. So I'll open the workshops. And then if you just look at the bottom of your screen, you'll see the breakout button. And you can just select the workshop that you've chosen, Um, and that will take you through just hip joint. And that will take you through to the correct room. Josie. How long would you like the rooms open for now? So it's really up to the workshop leads we were going to close at half past eight. I don't want to put the pressure on them to extend their evening commitments or anything like that. So it's really up to them. Are you happy with 8 30 everyone. Yeah. Okay. Wonderful. 8. 30 is them, Um, and those of you who are leaving us now. Thank you so much for joining us and for your time. Um, really, Really appreciate it And have a lovely rest of your evening. Okay. The workshop rooms are not open, so you should be able to join them if anyone's having any difficulties. Um, navigating to the workshop rooms. If you could just let me know, and I can move you into the room would you be able to move me to lifting lifting people up? Sure. Sorry. I can't say he's talking. Carol Chan. Carol. Sure. No problem. I think you better do. Me too, because I'm leading that one. Fine. We'll do. Thank you. Yes, Thank you. Um, And again, we automatically moved. Sorry. Other speakers going to be automatically moved. Um, no. So you will have to select your room, or I can move you. Where do you want to go? Um, I want to go into the active as I should, but I can't seem to put myself into it. Oh, they are. I can join that anybody else I'm having issues. I don't know where to go in to shove me somewhere where there's less people. I have to go wherever. Okay, No problem. Lovely. Thanks. Chan, are you okay? Would you like to be moved into a room? Oh, yes. Thanks. Uh, shirt, please. Ed a nine. Sorry. I don't know if I pronounce your name correctly, then. Stephanie, are you okay there? What? When would you like to go in? Alicia, please. I can't seem to get myself on. No problem. Thank you. Kits. You okay? Yep. Sorry. I just had to answer a phone call in the meantime, but yes, I'm fine. I'm scared to leave. And Ed, are you okay to move into a room, or would you like me to move you?