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let me. So thanks for joining. Um, I'm a I'm Yes, assess President this year. And this is our first event. This academic, You're so thank you very much for coming. It's a continuation of the Siris that restarted sort of towards the end of last year. Mean being that people who were inter clean eating but really relevant for anyone on today's session is on presentations and publications on. We're really happy to have Tom drink back with us. So Tom is a clinical research fellow and surgery at the Usher Institute. And add Enbrel on Dim. The cancer research usually beats an institute, and he is currently looking at cancer genetics on mechanisms of therapy, resistance and liver cancer. And he was still really enjoys teaching about tight. And you get research. So Thomas been bleeding or the sessions that you have in the past, which have been really well received to really excited to have been back for the final session on gonna 100 Tom and will have questions at the end if you hear that. So 100 and welcome to my kitchen. And I'm Tom and thank you very much for joining us and this'll Evening And so it's terribly talk to you about how to navigate the complicates world of presentations publications. And they're those of you who did join us in the first part of the Siris. We did do a little bit of around presenting your work and and how to format things for submissions like fee see thesis type things, etcetera. But today we're going to focus on how do you get that in turn into a paper or turn it into a conference presentation? These things, you know, you hear people talk about get wants or eccentric century cetera, and so we'll talk about really, what kind of and conferences. Oh, why, why? You should kind of think about going to them and you can maybe useful. And then we'll talk about publications and how that works. And we'll be going from Canada and right from condition No, stop a square on the board. And this is like properly. No, I'm no assuming any knowledge of it whatsoever. So and please say you have a pinched. So if you if you're ready and have a concept of some things, will discuss today and then there's be plenty of time for questions and and it's important to ask questions as well say, And I'd love to love to hear from you all, either in the session or I'm contact well on the anterior email system. And And if you Google me a swell cool, let's make it stop like computer 1 to 2. So what? We'll come stay. And the first thing to say is, and although it sounds very daunting, you can basically present and publish absolutely nearly anything. And you there's lots and lots and lots of really great stuff out there, but equally. And there's lots and lots and lots off and maybe not so great stuff out there. So your work, whatever is, is going to be better than a lot of the stuff out there already. So and if you're thinking, Oh, I'm not really sure about my work, don't think we're going to do anything with it, and you can do it is my kind of main thing and and it's really useful. And it's good practice and good skills and develop it, even if you know, you take something that's maybe not too exciting and take it towards Remember my first ever project course looking at outcomes after grommet surgery in kids, em with the tightest media effusion and and seeing if they've been swimming after they're growing operation. And it was really kind of badly conducted and, uh, put my hands up now and say that, you know, there's lots of method, a logical issues, and but I managed to take it. Tomkinson present it and it was quite nice and and I can't remember that quite well. So it's all representations on be confident things and publication and how to get there, and then we'll kind of wrap it up in. So as I was saying, Whatever you do, you know, you work that you you can do it and what you present you can percent absolutely anything. It could be it from a project you done. It could be from an interesting case that you come across, and no matter how basic you can probably find it's something to present that you can go to a meeting and you can go and talk about and you get out there and and develop their skills. But how do you get something really great? And how's you convey? Make something really great presentation or get really, can't time that complication, and that's what we can be going to be discussing today. Say, where can you go in present? Something well locally, your medical school or your medical society or your surgical society will have a little conference thing, or maybe a research evening or something going on and and present your workout. And I know I remember, has the undergraduate and surgery conference thing that usually happens on the right, that the morning off the School of Surgery Day that we run and which is a really great opportunity to go along and presents my things called the National Student Conference. And then it grows something like that. And it has been a bit hampered by Kobe it and for the past couple of years. But I'm sure it will be making a return. I am soon, if not this year, say regionally and you can go in present. You work like I said, kind of like level, but you can then take a little bit of step up so you could go in, presented a regional over. There's lots of you're moving your air foundation doctor. There will be there's a kanashimi Scottish foundation conferences and a couple other things along those lines. Or can ever more beach? Nothing for in England say, that kind of Northwest Surgical Society or the Yorkshire Surgical Society or whatever. So there will be a an outlet for that and in different parts of the UK and these X maybe slightly difficult to find because they're not very well advertised him just being quite small. And so you could the problem. The best people have asked. Really consultants or red senior registrars? You might be able to point you in the right direction. How to find these meetings out. You can go national. Um, I'd say, contractually, that Scottish conference is probably more of a regional conference. But if you want to go to a national conference, there's and things that organized by in the search concern she a shin Soviet association of surgeons and for colon surgeons. And they were nice meeting and over here, the liver meeting and there'll be a plastic surgeon meeting. So whichever M specialty is after surgery and and whichever they have special to your interest in there. Well, national conferences and national meetings you can send your work into and you submit abstract on your numbers on that and most exciting one, and is that you can go and read it and you can go abroad on Do you can Empress ent a conference that at a conference and anywhere in the world, says the international association or surgery or European Association of Surgery type things and basically stick on international association over and then whichever specialty you're interested in at the end and open up and then they'll have conference know it'll be a brought. The thing to watch out for those is that there are some associations of surgeries and they're actually national. So there's the association of their surgeons of Great Britain and Island and you say, or the international Conference and it's not really international. You don't go abroad. And so if it if the presentation says that one international presentational, they're looking for an interesting presentation for, you know, maybe have boxes it and try and go abroad, and for that on, it's certainly my favorite. So these are some good low goes to see, said easily run really great conferences and the Royal Society Medicine has later student meetings that people can put work into and usually quite a student friendly and designed to be picture trainings. They don't really big, serious conferences him, but they can do. Yeah, good things that practice for we on to be. You know, if you submit, you might get be in the running for a price. There's the Association of Surgeons in Training or Asset, and they run a national conference every year. Um, which is really great as well. And then it's him quite reasonably priced. Sgb I. They have a big national conference usually, and this lawsuit and conferences that come out of the rocal. Just agents better with a sponsor for students have student conferences as well, so they they hear these events usually appear on the website. Welcome to session thing that's have something as many as energy. And if you do, you period is presentation and afterwards. But there's a good link here on the Edinburgh Department of Physical, says your Websites and the wonderful Katie Shore Cure Rates or Or Susan kg cure, cure rate and Marie maybe, And anyway, somebody curates beautifully. A list of conferences and updates thumb so some of them international, some international, and if you see this logo there a good start conference. There's another conference in the UK, which is called said and Academic Surgery Research Conference or Society of Activity, Reception, Surgery or SARS. And that's, Ah, very conference to go to. But it's traditionally Seimas, one of the conference you go to in Alabama practice because you get lots of questions and that is good. Friend spoke, you said, Really great. Okay, so you found something on the Internet you quite like, and it's in a good place and no, Do you? How do you know what, what work you're going to submit or anything you can get it in? And so what a good idea to do is don't flick through the previous years and and have a look at what other people presented because they usually publish there there meetings in a book, and then they have the abstract in to have a look in just they can see whether people don't something similar the pool, and that's sometimes a useful gauge to see whether and this is gonna be a good place to to to go in prison your way so you can get one of two things either a post to presentation. And this just kind of revolves. Making usually a power point and big power point pressure. Um, I'm sure people see them. Mm. We can covered a little bit of house percent those and we can, um, I have a presentation. And when you do some talking for about 5 10 minutes, usually when there's a short soft question and paste presentations do sometimes come with a bit of China's well say in the past. And I'm going to get into it too much because places, a whole different fish and and a lot of things to cover bit. At nearly every conference. You see the somebody's trying to bring the patient of plane, and then you print it off his April sheets, and they stick it up to the board stores like 16 a four sheets that like pins and each one has a different line on it, and each one has something. Try and avoid that, and in posters rule about presenting you work in a very clear legend. Alon understandable manner and and simple is often better, So just going to stick to a message and make it nice and clean and make sure you get it printed properly. A swell cause that will help, you know. And this is no medical. But this is kind of an example poster that I quite like. It just kind of shows, you know, really straightforward, really clean. And it just has really simple wording on it. And you, why study these? What were my methods? Needs my results and some pretty pictures as well. And when you're looking at a conference Crestor's, they all can assume that blocking and things. So if you can get do something, captures and I or looks really nice and clear or looks really exciting and and that doesn't really matter too much about the content, you could have done half of the battle there. I'm just presenting something really nice and so I don't. But if you do get opposed to presentation, I would suggest you go. It's really good, clear examples that have really laid out very nicely, and I've got a question on the shots that says, Can we present systematic reviews and conferences? That's a really great great question on guess. Absolutely. Um, systematic abuse can go to conferences, absolutely, and they can be presented, and that's absolutely fine, and sometimes sometimes they can win. Stuff is well so you can present case presentations. You see case presentations at conferences well, and I don't necessarily think you win much. But, um, yeah, it doesn't have to be. This is the research project. Did they collected 100 people's where the data it can be, I think, is, and the more skeptical side of things is, in order for a conference to be profitable or to be viable, we need to get enough people through the door. And to do that, you have to accept people's abstracts. And so we're kind of slightly better. That in mind is that and you know that there's no and incentive for people to say no, don't come and and another question. But let's tributes and list reviews can be presented as well. But if you're doing well, it's true. Be it's sort makes sense to make it a systematic review, because you probably wouldn't do Let's Tribune on Systematic Way. And if you trying to find something, it's all about come. This is basically a thread that runs through. The whole talk is that make sure your methods of the best they can be because that's the thing that conjecture you really great presentation or really great publications all about food methods, presenting like, Okay, she got your poster. Congratulations. And always could have allowed two weeks a printing, and this is something I really don't do. And but I think it's a good thing to do. And in S O you can get. And if you're not, you reason post printing. It means that you can find the best printer that is an extortion it. And you can send your printer your poster to a printer on. They'll print it out for you. The other way of doing it is in the library in most university, where everything there is one of the number. Then there's these big printed school plot of printers and and they print up to a north size stuff, and they are a little bit irritating to use, and so you need to know how to use them. Um, but you can get a poster printed on the day after 10 lbs and is going more towards Elektronik Press. It is now and which you send in a PowerPoint presentation of that flick up on the screen and but if you do have to print opposed to make sure we've lost time, unless you know how to use these can have more complicated print. Is your so your presentation and is a good thing to have, because it means that you do some chat about it, and you can add a little bit of extra invitation and clean things out and emphasize things. Do you get your point across? The better Some people don't like speaking. That's absolutely fine as well. And so these can be quite scary, particularly if you feel like you're standing up in the room full of consultants and you're asking me questions on and they can be quite anxiety provoking. But don't worry, don't worry. Everybody's been there before. And so the important thing to remember is just make sure it's really clear. Next was really practiced and make sure you get lost advice as well. Advice and teamwork is the most important thing when it comes to this, because you'll be able to if you present it to somebody or you know you trust and concave you honest and good feedback and help you and together the presentation into a much for everything, then that's when you're going to be better for you when you come to present in front of us. But we don't know the other thing that's happening. Favorite is most people doing pre recorded or all presentations. And if it depends what kind of person you are, if you're like me and I tend to you, I'm very happy to talk and and present. If I don't have to play it back, if I don't have to kind of go over it again. And when I'm pretty recording it all, I always go through it again and press, pay and press play and then three report lots of little things that I noticed that probably no problems and say If you are that way inclined just trying to make things, treat things again and again and again. Make sure you set a lot of time for it. So you're 10 minutes talk to record usually takes me about a couple of hours and whereas in in Paris and talk congestive it off that without any practice and then without recording it and but that comes with practice. And so just make sure that if you asked me report something you set aside lots of time different recorded because it actually takes more time often than if you just giving your talk straight up. Right? So we've done a bit earlier in Susa about the presenting side of things. So I'm going to come and now in Vegas, more on the conferences and what sort of things you need to look out for. And and I'm a bit skeptical about conferences, really, their goods. But they are a lot of money, particularly if you're a student and and then, in all honesty, I think they're very much geared up. The people who are consultants or registrars on gets a lot of money that goes down the drain. Not a lot of kind of good out often and on. It's trying to work out balance. If you spending your money best ability, I'm getting the most valuable because that I can think of a lot of emphasis. I happen to where I kind of come away and then look what I actually get that. And you know, I'm I've lost people. And when you're ready and just talk to them about projects, no, actually gained any skills or you just wasted Name a time enough. Not really kind of go anything, value of value. Ask for it. And I spent a lot of money, and I say the thing to be aware of and typically in active in publishing presentations. Examine publishing is the probably one the highest mark up industries and in the world. And people like yourself A and people and in kind of other academic marketing and and public publishing houses make a lot of money and and so and write your wrongly em if you if you agree with that model and which will come to you in a second. And there has been a whole lot of interest on maybe less reputable people who have jumped on the bandwagon and say, Hey, this is really great way of making less money very quickly and absolutely is and say Make sure if you do go to a conference that you've not just found it on the Internet. Make sure we've got some recommendations about him in to talk to people in your field and say, Hey, is this actually a conference? Because this is from conference serious dot com, which is part of the omits family off generals, which a renowned predatory publisher and predatory publishing impact print tree conferences. Basically bad try make money out of you. And no, I've got another question. I should come back in second, and cities are designed to make money out of you. They often charge you 205 100 lbs to people coming on and try and you know they will email you and say, Hey, can you send in your abstract? Would love to happy and type thing the very generic emails, usually But some, um, be quick it and and it's conceivable, or these places are basically held in the hotel chains. And so that's probably the one giveaway that if you see a conference that's held in a travel watch for our Holiday Inn in really random places and is probably not good, it's probably something to stay away from. And interestingly, here is when I found a second international conference on urology neuro sites. That sounds good. Yeah, international conference. A new powers. Really great. A couple days in London UK are wonderful on, uh, you know, it's next to the London I am. Yeah, I can see there is that I'm not really good with London landmarks, and but it looks like the London I interim, and but then you look into it a little bit more on do It says it's in Heathrow. And so if you want to spend a lot of money on going on and a conference to Heathrow Airport toe holiday and then I probably could have avoided it. But then this websites also very cute and you can come by to get straight away. But also you can invite your friends to come along and so apparently started five AM Well, so I'm not entirely sure he would want to go to, and he threw up or five AM and for a conference and with friends. But just be really careful and don't waste your money. Isn't that that kind of thing? If it's something looks bit silly, probably is. So just ask him, Ask you some help. Onda. The reason I say that is cause I know people instant, Um, so back to the question, quickly the chat. How do you find topics for poster and all presentations? Well, that's a good question, is what else? It could be a project you've done in medical school and often a good way of finally one is to ask somebody So ask of you of senior registrar, consultant and see if they've got any projects. And all right, chaps. Sunday, another university of your your universities now and on exam in two Popsicles academic department of which everything you're interested in Go on elective, ask for project and yeah, that kind of thing. So just ask around people and people are never going to say no to you. And I think this silly, they're going to think, Oh, great. This person's really interested in what I do or you know is really key and this we want to try and help him. And And if you have any problems that come back to us and rewarding her to help you there Okay, so other things to think about. And if you're going on an international conference, think about flights, travel to covitz. You only PCR tests and things now potentially and and also in visas and immigration. So we're going to states to be a happy if you're going to Europe. It's a lot easier because PCR test nowadays for some bits and and how you gonna get that. How much did it cost? He's gonna pay for that. And on day, uh, the cost of accommodation in the cost of eating and the cost of supporting yourself to the conference. And some of us are very lucky on D, And you might have done a project the an academic department or somebody's got some money and to kind of spend on accommodation lights. And so make sure you always ask and the person who SR kind of person who who is you've done that work with because they might have some money to To pay for you to go on a conference is Well, now think about what? What? What would you ideally like from conference? Would you like to get a lot of learning done, In which case you might have picks on a really interesting you really consumer specialist conference? Or do you want to go somewhere interesting and meet some new people from different bits? The world? So this is one of the conference I went to was basically next to the X, which was quite nice, and I could have, like, based on things and on like mountains, say, I thought that was great. And the Yeah, now the question coming in, Can one present same research project in three and four different in 3 to 4 different conferences? Yes. Yeah, and I wouldn't do it at different years in the same conference. But you can abstracts in the multiple conferences on exactly the same thing. And that's upstate. Okay, And some specialties have skiing go. I mean winter conferences there in the outside or in on mountainside have which quite nice I've never been. But I really want to go to one, and and you you do some conferencing in the morning and then some conferencing in the evening. And then there's a mysterious and can get in between them and see anything to go into is kind of playing snow in mountains. So it's also quite nice. And conferences like that actually have a very strong breathless in that, and they tend to be quiet, quite small, and if you're doing a fun activity that everybody is doing, it's not. It's not medicine. Medicine could be very dull if you keep going on at it again and again again. It's exciting activity. Meet some new people, makes me friends and some conferences. A We go for the night life too busy. Other people in your name, A lot of conference. I went t I've been to before. I have friends in the city, so uses it as an excuse to go and visit them and maybe not have such a while out. Was this kind data in Aberdeen? And but that kind of thing you use it to go and travel and see things as well as a swells learning. And make sure you don't stay for every single session. And, yeah, make sure you use your time valuable going learn things that go on since isn't going meet people but also and have some fun and some like this one. Okay, say the top tips about presentations and at conferences in general, do your research. Make sure you're going for the right reasons. Don't spend lots of money on conferences or don't spend lots of people's money on conferences that are going to be valuable to you in some board. And that doesn't have to be an academic value that can be a personal value as well. And what will you get out of it? Make sure that It's not the predatory conference, and it's it's going to be useful for you. Be aware of ridiculous prices as some conferences that will charge you 500 lbs for the pleasure of going and begin your postop 2% at that conference. That's take the unacceptable. If you are a student, you should not be paying that. So if you see something that is that sort of price, email them and say and you don't say that's unacceptable, they just say, Do you have this medical student price? I can't afford that and some places will have first freeze and certainly I was medicine before I remember Emailing Bump. It's organizer saying I love to come to a conference, but I I can't forward 500 lbs. Is there a medical student price? And then they were like, Oh, God, I get a lot of good or pretty mailing and a lot of what we're thinking on their part before they could have came up with this new price cast grief, medical students and which is much more promise, boy, I mean, I could get so if you see it, make sure you can say Okay, well, they you know you might be able to put it. There's other people in the world will be looking at that. And, like I really want to do that. I want to get to a conference that be like with me and you would not be able to go a voice, So make sure you can call that sort of stuff out. And if you did a project, the department will. They help you cover the cost of accommodation travel, and it depends. Departments department. Some places do some places don't and especially careful when you after that. But make sure you did. You ask about that and, like, say, make sure you can have if something's bit too expensive to make sure you ask about it and some other questions. Who could help funding conference costs? A. Medical schools, extent organizations. So often the society who's running a conference might have a medical school medical student Bursary. Or do you ask them if they have a medical student grocery? They might think about it and make one. And the things think about is lost of these conferences. People who invited to speak consultants and know pay anything and when you're invited to speak in a conference. Usually they will. You know, the way your registration be. So you don't have paid 500 lbs on your you know how much is a consultant or they'll put you up in a nice hotel. And so if they could do that, consultants and I do have people talking. They should be able to help out the people who were the most junior. And and if they don't then on they weren't budged then that conference isn't going to really and make sure is it works for you. And because you are the most important people and medical schools can help us well. And some medical schools have and burst refunds to do it on a bed of the university has a great, um, medical student conference front, which helps pay for things him. So they're absolutely fantastic in that regard. And I have, um, I went chef of it possible. They also have to have a similar scheme. And to do that, so if again, if you can't see advertised, make sure you ask, because often these things may not been thought about or and with a little bit, prompting it might make people go? Oh, yeah, we should. We should do that. That's a good idea. And Teo, make sure you can ask for is well, right. Is there any questions about presenting things or conferences that people can have? I wanted to share? And if you crazy person chance on if not and give it a second. I wonder who hair which keep going then. And so how to published stuff. Now This is often, and when I have thought to be, when your medical student on the most challenging things or got a trap, thank you very much. What part do you suggest we do research with from your own experience? Great question and say, and this depends on what you're interested in. So if your hospital has a and yeah, department surgery about surgery or surgery going to approach them quite often, if you can have, like a district in the hospital, maybe a community hospital or if you're not from the UK and any decisions you do, the surgery will be in surgery and, you know, don't do a lot of research. So perhaps a good place to start would be by asking either one of us and we can very rich play and or you can ask to go on elective somewhere we could email somebody and just can have asked them about, You know, I explained situation and say, Yeah, I'd really like to use, um, sexual realize, have a project. How can I do this? Um, even if it's just some advice, if you don't have time, that's okay. But a couple of lines of advice to be absolutely amazing and see you see what happens. It might take bit. Persistence him, but it's any good way of looking at things the other way. If you want to, Research is to maybe ordered it, and it's join the star Surgery Surgery Global Search 11 chips And they have hops in different countries, a swell, which might have other projects you could get involved with. Um, they're very keen to have students on board, and you can collect your data on the topic that they're doing a study in, and you can go and present your own centers, data meeting or something like that. So that's a good way to get into it as well. What's the maximum number of conferences? One can present the same project too. I didn't know the maximum. I think if you did it every year, 20 years, probably bury a board of it, Um, and suggest that you don't before and I think probably a good target is. And you're probably going present the same thing at three or four conferences maximum in one year and then publish it rather than no recycling anything. So, um, going present it you a few times, but not not excessive number. Eso I could spend hours on swing your questions. How did you get started presentations as a pre clinical excuse isn't from whoever's on an iPad. And again ask people. And if you're a pre clinical student and maybe it's somewhere doesn't have, um, the current medical school be chance with medical school to the Internet. It's wonderful thing. Um, if you're interested in a certain thing, go and have a little Google around that area and see if there's somebody in a clinical med school that you might going to or something that you could potentially work with so on. A good example is in a in Scotland, we have some Andrews with preterm. For medical students. There's no clinical medicine that happens. That's the Andrews. It's a tiny village or town, and but there's an under you. Students tend to go Teo us even number afterwards, and we've got big clinical departments and surgical thing big such a hospital. And so we could give you projects that a potentially and was something you didn't have to come into the big hospital for. You could maybe do a home where you do a systematic review or something like that, and you say there's always opportunities to get involved. It's just trying to find the right opportunities for you. I think so. Make sure that the only way of doing that is asking and and joining these things like little surgery. Your said your star search a while and even Twitter. Ask people on Twitter as well. Yeah, and don't keep it off or somebody puts you down. They have broken know you keep asking people and great say more chance and I will move on and I will need phone and the candidates you gathered from surveys be summarized on Smith serves abstracting. You provide. You have consent use of research purposes. That's a complicated question, and deep down it can be Yes, if it's a survey but makes you for ethical approval to terrace and make sure it's all, probably approve it and make sure you conducted well. It's a study, and but we will and move on. And I think, and great questions you can do more answering the end. So how to published us? Well, this is kind of seen a seat there quite difficult, and in student terms, it seems a bit mystical on every regimen. Yes, it works, and actually, I want to debunk it for you and just say you can publish anything and I, you know, I was sent today A really misses going on metal, a flawed study that was submitted to a very high impact journal him on d right? Yeah, I was asked to review it on, but I think that anybody here could quite easily do that study. And if I have general percent out of you and you can get something published and so it's important to say that there's nothing no, no, if you do something well and she put a lot of effort into it and you try and do its best for you because there's no such thing as a bad study. And it's really important, though, that you try and make sure that you do the research, study well, honestly and say they're They're the two key things that basically, you should take away from this, but and we'll go forward him and talk about how you might go back up to the square Publishing and from Square one, What can you publish anything? Um, generally speaking, if it is clear, if it's well written, if it has a good and clear question and good methods, then and there's no reason why you should not be published and here it we'll come to walk that might look like it a couple minutes. And previously in the series we have talked about methods and how to todo well and so make sure you basically it's all about the right study designed for the right question. And where should you publish it? Well, there's loads journals out there and and again, there's some predatory ones, which you need to make sure you look out for a swell. So be careful and about choosing journalists submit to on don't submit to the first one, you see, make sure you get opinions about it and how and so how do you actually go about getting published when you have? Ah, you a word document with you? What he thinks The finished piece, Where where do you send it, How these and in and and the important thing to know about the maximum publishing is that you will get rejected. You get rejected lots and lots and lots of times they're saying it's a big general at the lance. It would be in jail or even, you know, General Medicine gets hundreds of submission of submissions every day, and and they only publish kind of half a percent or no 0.2% of what they actually get sent in. And so rejection is no a personal thing. When it comes back down, it work in general will get rejected from conferences. You'll get rejected from journals. It's not personal. It's not saying it works fast, and it's often just due to subjective nous of whoever is in charge or whoever is looking at. We're reviewing your work and there is the degree of chance in it and subjectivity, which is something you can begin to realize the further you can get, um, say and with that sense, you work is actually fantastic. But it's unlikely it's unlikely. Know impossible that your work. And if you do a retrospective orders of ear grommets and, um, swimming, um, in Children and to three years after they have their grown, it's and you're asking their parents, Did they have a near infection about four years ago? And it's unlikely that's going to be published in new Um, Journal of Medicine. However, when I did that exact same project, my supervisor told me without a doubt and who is a professor and at a teaching hospital. And he said, I should submit it's the BMJ and the New England Journal of Medicine because it's going to change the world. Um, but obviously it way I think about it. It clearly wasn't and say the important thing to think about is not to view your work with to raise tinted spectacles and because if you do have that and you'll spend a lot of time getting rejected, we have it this happening and you know you never get anything, so you need to balance these things up, and I didn't know if you'd see me, and he's trying to count Festival. What you talking? This is important And is it gonna be impactful? So it's really difficult to tell. Whether actually means, but is it is a really important question. Is there am know something that you're answering, that that's not been an instant, the literature before people to ask that of the experts. And it's of the surgeons, the doctors around you, and you try and ask them what the big questions are in the specialty and and doing good methods A swell. And hopefully you endure those three things you're after lead to acceptance bought, and it does feel like you can a balancing a very kind of unsteady, tight grip on. But they often with many of these things, you won't know anything about one. So you don't know. You know what was impactful and certain specialties outside my and it'll and all which topics goods. And but I know how to write methods. That's going to be something I'm I know I'm gonna, and the other two things I know I did and say You can't do it alone. Need to make sure you have a team around you and probably more methods, folks and a lot of people. But and the most important thing is the methods. If you do something well, you do it once and it's really good. Then that can get published. The the easy way of rejecting and paper from. If you submit it to a journalist to say the methods aren't very good and because that will give it floored result, you're unlikely to believe any. And if you have bad data, more dates, that's a risk of being a bit dodgy because of the methods. And that's not going to impact a little care. And you, if you do something well, it's probably going to be near. It's the actual answer, and it's more likely to improve patient care and have, you know, knock on consequences about how you treat patients. So where is good to find a journal vestibule? So how are you going to, you know, you've got a project they want right up, and you think what she likes to your house. So I do it, and before you bite anything, it'll think about where you might put it. And so I get opinions from people around. She really important And then people have done some publishing before. They're they're probably the best people. So people who publish a lot will be able to tell you exactly where it's pretty. It and which kind of you Papa Van script or something. And try and find those people, even if it's even if they're not involved in project. Just say, what do you think about this word you did. You see this and you can even email the editorial boards off journals and say, Hey, what do you think about this? Where do you think I get into your journal? You interested in it? And they might just say no, which is okay as well. Just gives you kind of a guide. Say anything. That's the strong popped. Most things know, I think most things that lists, um, hum it fairly, Okay, journals they do. They've got onto this public thing and which is the database of lots of medical literature? Um, and they're going to be more than like the They're going to be quite a genuine journals to submit to. You have a good place to find them, and this is unfortunately paid for service. Some universities have a subscription to and or there might be a free version. Now remember anyway. Claritin burying weapons SCI SCIENCE CITATION INDEX These are the people who calculates something called an impact factor, and an impact factor is the number of citations and Journal gets in a year, divided by the number of articles that house and that could generate citations because that yet and and so that gives a list of most site of journals least cited journals. And so the top will be people like The Lancet. The you know the General MENSA bottom will be kind of the International Journal of At Name and the International Journal of Random Ear Surgery of your Something Really, really can a specialist that it's not at the bottom because it's bad. Is that the bottom? Because it's a really special subject, usually and and there's not a lot of people in that field, say, say, if you think you've got the Ms World changing study to discover the new drug that cures everybody, everybody of X disease, then maybe you can go really high at the list. And but if it's going like a just a Nordette, you're still really important. Day Steve done and in in order it or something you could have done at your hospital. Maybe looking towards middle. So much lower bit of the list. And you can have if you're no not used to knowing respite thing and the list list that this generates is really useful on bit Comptel you and give you a rough ballpark figure of you. Where do I think it may might go high is probably unlikely, but middle to lower is it is more straightforward. Okay, A Christian Good. We can come up questions well at the end. And if you're hasn't think so, make sure you you look a journal that appears on the basis is the story there. The next thing is that and this is a bit of a generalization. But when it comes to academic publishing, if you have to pay for your article as a medical student or is it you You submitted it somewhere. If you have to pay for it to be published, it's probably not a good journal. Very broad generalizations. This is particularly case in journals, the predatory, and they will send you emails to spend box where they will say, Hey, published with us. It's 500 lbs and on paper, French bones, and then we'll probably your skull. And so these generals, this thousands off, um so really, really careful, even ones that appear on that med. Some of them can be fine, predatory, a swell and some controlled for giving you color prints and on some Concerta arj for a you the numbers of pages that you put in in Germany cetera these days it generals aren't really printed that off, too. So if you're paying extra money for a color printing charge and it's and it's a general that you've never seen on a bookshelf from the library before, it's really unlikely that they're That's a particularly good journals publishing and say, Look for journals that you don't have to pay them publishing cause. Ultimately, journals need your work in order for universities and other people to pay the subscription piece to access your work. And you shouldn't be paying a general to publish your work and then them charging your university back for university taxes it and okay, so that's in general. And there are exceptions. Federal So, for example, New England Journal Medicine or Nature or demands it. They will charge program 10,000 lbs and if your article to appear in that and but that that's sort of money that you should never pay yourself Emma again. The reason why I say this is I know people who have published in pressure ales and have had to pay at two or 3000 lbs on the credit card and with the hope that and that would get get, um, a publication that they can put in their CVS cetera. And so be really careful, and usually you won't have to pay for substance. And if someone's asking you for money, think about it and ask people and say, Is this normal? Is this right? Cool? Having said that, there are some places that will ask money on the's, a usually known as open access journals. Now the problem is, these are a bit blurry. So don't submit to an open access general unless you've got somebody on board who knows what they're doing or has done it before because you can access generals and can a lot of the credits generals, masqueraders, open access journals because they can access generals will charge you in you or your institution of BC paid like 3000 lbs. And then that means that the work is accessible to everybody across the world, which has its own benefits. But it's important you waken circulating all this to everybody. And if you're thinking about publishing, they can access. General. These were really great journalists to go for B M J B J S A. N across one, and often these will have deals with your university and so you don't have to pay to publish in them and so that they'll publish later news and need two different work. Those two different things and in a new connects this way. So you won't computer programs website and looking for work. And so it's a bit different from a taken A traditional you submit it, and it appears in that physical journal. So I think these are just kind of turning them the mountain, and but they're still reject, know quality. That's work. And so it's important you have good methods him. But if you see these Legos, that's okay. There's very few other journals that happy that will say can access that Rica were publishing other than these ones and And if you're in doubt, just ask somebody am pretty born to make sure that you're not getting into financial difficulty because of ablation, right? Say more broadly back onto our universities. Your university might be able to help you with publishing as well. Is that some journals? Do you charge and for and closing And you're university often have a list in their library of places they've got to deal with. And so this is the end of the university website M. And it says you can publish in European Respiratory General for free because you're from Edinburgh and because we've got a special deal with them. So it's worth just having a university. Are asking you, you old university library if there are any deals. And so I've done a lot of testing about fees and things just because it is really important to make sure that Yeah, and you don't get calmed basically and say, if you're in surgery, what might look like a good start down what might be a good place for you to submit your work If you're unsure if you you don't have anyone around you to fast and then these are probably the two ones that I recommend. The journal started to research with International tournament surgery. General Surgical upsets my kids. And you know, if you see one of these two, you would be useful to submit to them if you really have no clear. Yeah, they work studio and submitted one of these two and then see what happens. Basically. So congratulations after pouring through those lists after asking lots of people after making sure you're not getting conned there by predatory journal you chose in the journal you want submit to Congratulations and that's probably the most difficult bit the whole thing. Genuinely. So what you put in your Oscar why I stopped the beginning Middle. No, no, no, no. Before you start writing and and you've got your list of places you won't submit to stop, the most important thing is to always read the instructions and and they usually quite clearly listed so they'll be under the authors section, quickening information for authors bit. And I'll give you lots of information on how to form in your article and walking references. They like it, cetera. So is really important where you even start writing an article and to say he lost time. Find the general you want first look at the information for authors and then former. You worked that. Then start your writing and mean if you if you have a bit of work done and then you have to re edit a whole thing, it gets really draining up for a while. And so start okay. And try. Make it easy for yourself because often you'll see this paperwork, the valves back, TOB. Paperwork done. And I had, like, 60 to 80 revisions on your slide over all I want to just I don't want to see this again and at all. And if you're trying to like them, reform out figures and to change a little places, it becomes very frustrating. And once they dries up them, say from the instructions, Great. The next things do before you start writing is to find a paper in that job you like, and we think is really good and then read it. And it doesn't have to be anything you're interested in. It just has to be something that you like. The look off and then he thinks interesting. So you can bleed. How are north is written it. It flows together what methods of like what the results look like, how many figures they got that kind of thing and to give you a kind of a flavor of what accepted articles that journal might look like. So you can try and and format your article and maybe write to even in similar start because you know, if that's got in and if you can produce a similar better work is probably going to be able to get in as well. And this is very comes into the most important thing about writing and is working in a T. It's not cellulose sport because and even though if you even if you're the best person writing, you'll make typos, you'll make a dramatic alone Steaks setting praises move were quite sound right? And when you're writing your high as three kids, and you need to get a lot of people to be involved in you to bring people into the team and you'll be bouncing around each other and I'll show you a good way to the boys. Lots of multiple copies and conflicts changes. It's very low and in seconds. But get people involved get the experts, and both will be up to try and help you. Shaped Story is, well, paper, that kind of thing. And don't ever shown away from getting keep in both sickly if they're experienced in academic publishing because they'll be able to help you think about these things. What would appear reviewer think so when you send in a journal article to journal, they sent it out to peer review. And so some people who have thought to be maybe experts in the field will have a look your paper and go. Yes, I agree. No, I don't agree. I think you should do like this. I think you should change this. And and your team is probably the most important set of people who be able to help, you know, any response days, but also head them off right at the start. So whenever I get a paper sent me, I think Well, if I was reviewing, what would I change? To what? Where I think the important thing about it. You How would I reject this article? And how can we change your school so you that wouldn't get rejected and help with language and play and core. Often I read something or somebody read my working eight tone that isn't quite make sense. I don't quite know what you're doing. You're just talking about waffling at that point. And so it's important to get people's feet back. And also, if somebody writes one section, you can write the other and you know more hands think like work. And also, if you're really busy, it's very easy to drop something and not pick up again. Whereas if you drop something and you have somebody who's like even you're very good about, where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Here, then kind of we'll do, Um, forget about it as much because you don't let side down. And so that's the kind of thing lots of hands will help to do. That and any Cleese somebody might say, Oh, you're bit too busy. I could do that. Don't worry about that. Teamwork is in science and in medicine, very important. So we found a team we found Don't submit Teo really instructions ready paper. We'll kind of wait. Good t start writing now and but had me start writing What? What what we do how we do it and say Probably the The overall thing that I want to say to you is it's like writing a story and you'll do really well if it flows together. So you have a nice beginning. There's kind of a This is the problem. This is what we're gonna do to address the problem. This is how our reception I was gonna be really helpful is how we did it. These are the people have it. He's the results from study. And then this is why it's really impacting at the beginning, middle of lend. And it has something that links it'll up throughout. And then it kind of has a big ending and says, Look, this is what we found. We blowing it wide open. What? We know we found that actually, this thing that people thought was the thing is that I think or, you know, we confirmed it was a thing and say, Well, they're people. Think about some of your writing is very factual. Actually, you should be no creative with the results, but creative with how you write something and how you engage somebody reading it to make sure it flames and and see hints to go closing. But my talked it in terms of trying to make some fluid is before you start writing, right, Bill, it points and say, this is the power of refer. I'm going to do this. This is what I'm going to say. These are the point. I want to make in the discussion kind of out really kind of out and and use a few words possible. Usually if I think when I'm writing an introduction is no longer in a full page and on the discussion is kind of three pages, Max. It was a kick it really tight. And I used a boat. Points out that I say this is what drug? Do this here. This one here. So you found story. Defend really crazy story, but went to out and and And so we take the Goldilocks example as well, and we need to make sure we're telling the story. Right? So we need to make sure he includes away important thing. So if we try, um, try to write the Goldilocks story where the little girl comes into the bears house needs that origin and then we'll sleep in the bed and we admitted the porridge. You know, people that what is this? And it's just about ago who goes into the best house? Doesn't really make any sense. She's a vandal, insures a handle. And but if you committed the bears, then people also be asking what you're talking about. So you need to make sure the important things are in the story and and tell people why. It's important. Goldilocks just went into eat some porridge and there's no there, a consequence to it. Okay, it's just a story about somebody 18, the breakfast, which isn't really interested and how people right it's in now. What are the right? That's how do you know what the right, That's our well. Fortunately, it doesn't website, and that can tell you what it's you should include. You should talk about in your study particular with the methods and say this is called the Equate in that wreck, which is? It hurts in the quality and transport transparency of healthcare research, and they have little checklists on the checklist, say title. And they'll say boys, including entitled to say abstract, just include the abstract results, which simply the results of methods which thinking that and even going through and you can take them off. And so there's one for each types to be a randomized trial observation start system that you've used to people talk about, say, even case reports. And there's this stuff said, it's really important. There's also good to help you structure. Your work is well, so if you're kind of and everyone gets right, spoke difference can do lots writing. Straightway use one of these checklists and trying to work through it. And is anybody a question of what I can hear? Some people somebody, um, Mrs and Neck Wonderful. That's absolute fine as well. And so writing tips You've got your structure thought back story. You've got points down. You used to check this to try and mention the important things. You think I should go back to the show this and okay, even ask cause they get to teach the high impact publications would be one today, and that didn't use this and just didn't mention the really important things about that type of method or the study design they used ignored it take. And ultimately, if you don't tell people what your methods are. Tell people why you did something or you know why. It's not the gold standard to study designed. You're done and people just going to look at it. And that's the thing we gotta fix. Um, writing tips, yes. Say there's one of those rating scales that we talked about making a plan. It makes you think about it, makes you do the methods, right. Use something to help you the structure checklist, Equator network thing and which, if you skip your request now, it could be up to find these checklists really easily. And probably the top thing that I don't suggest and I'm sure you lost uses anyway would be to use a reference manager. So Reference Manager takes at the journal articles that you're going to quit. I'm going to reference inside your your piece of work. And it started in a form that you can just pop into your documents so you don't have to time out your references by hand. It'll it'll do it for you. These programs have free and they make your life so much easier if you're trying to do a systematic you. Particularly referencing are 100 studies by hand is sure fire way of making you. You basically want to up and leave and probably go to does Island somewhere, and it's not fun and mentally and tear it really great. And the other thing, if you're working in a big team, is Google Drive or Google docks or maps of one Dr Use an online writing application because it means that people can add it the same thing with the same time and, you know, trying to string together multiple copies and A. And I read a study that recently, and we ended up with, like, 20 different versions everywhere. Document and they're the answer isn't magic on and cause people doing later. Weird things. It was very confusing. So if you can try and avoid that you something my good with right good docks him or Microsoft problem to try and bring it all together really nicely, and it makes you light flow easier. So trying to stress out and and then try and finds okay, a study that you like and and find your favorite studies and try and emulate how they talk about things and how they can do their sentences and so usually really good things that you could join medicine. Dilantin. Really nice, concise language him and try and avoid of competition is the risk of being medically is what we like to use. What's pants? Let's try and show you how how many words we know. And so one of the things that kind of gets me is because used their terms like placed operative, what post hospital? A hospitalization and then I Rexall words that usually practice sometimes. And you kind of like. And if you think about to take step back, why we're using the pyrexia. When you say about temperature, everyone understands that we know what we need and after hospital rather than post hospitalization and be re clearing really simple here language because ultimately, if you're trying to communicate, something's really complicated. If you do it simply, people aren't stand it and be able to think about corporate get concept rather than thinking about what you actually just written and particular people have to stay here. I'm slightly dyslexic and on if I read a big sentence or lots of big, long, complicated words, I really I really struggle, and so I have to read something three or four times notice for it to make you make sense to me. And whereas if you could have used really straightforward language than it's going to really clear and we'll go Oh, yeah, I think so. And we need Okay, so, summary today's well, pretty. Find a good story. Read the instructions. Find something you like to try and emulate that better work and also use a very clear structure check list which has provided to you by these wonderful people will be a greater network. It's really easy to use their checklists. They'll say what you need to create in the study. Finally, we're gonna submission journey and submitting a paper. You usually go to the general website and you think they're submit thing and then it will be filled out some electric forms you create your log in and then you a place where documents and this is a great achievement. You've got to this point You nearly there. Well done. You select General Donald writing. Really? They're nearly there. Once you filled our notes, you were document you. Then you then get sent General on the General, have an answer on the ends two ago. I think that's a good idea or you don't really like that. Maybe we'll go somewhere else. And so they will decide to send it out here of you or they will send, you know, saying, actually, yeah, really great that work. But with the general chemistry and And you seem to have a written article about kind of and genetics or something like, it's not really our thing. And so I'm going to send it back to you, reject it and say, Try and find some rails If it s to, like, sit. And they might send it out to some other people so they might send it to a peer review Our So the experts look at it and you're suppose it experts some of it's quite subjective. And and the peer reviewers, well, then say, Well, I think this is good. I think it's bad the time scared of this, how risk reddest. And yeah, people think, Oh, it's probably yeah, and updating things that so this is after you've written that which can take a six months, a year to three days to upload. It has never you. Well, I always do. Anyway, I never quite read the instructions right, I'll send it in and they'll say, Oh, actually, you put the wrong color there. Um, can you please have it back again to redo it and send it back to us? That takes two or three days left knee? Yes. So continue in between 24 hours or less and to several weeks to think about whether it's send it's pure of you. And the peer reviewing bit takes months a week's toe, absolutely months. And so it's not a quick process, and and if he gets rejected from first tell you submitted to take, it goes to review, then you have to repeat this process over, say a good example. Have we one of the so so recently done? And we submitted it in January, and it was only published last month. And so this whole process can take 6 to 8 months, and that's for would be relatively quick and so just be wound. If you want something for an application quickly, it's publishing something is probably not going to be the thing. And to do the publishing stuff takes ages. But if they do come back and say, Well, we love it. Reviews thought it was great and they probably won't accept it. They probably went said to it straight, Really? Might just say, uh, yeah, Well, sorry. Couldn't accept it this time. This is how you know, suppressed so we can accept this time. But if you do a little tweak to it, we might think about it. And and that's really positive emails to have. It will sound a bit depressing when you get it, but actually, that's that in medical speak, that's, like all really good Well done. And see you some revisions of it. You have to redo you some writing except trip of and then that gets sent back to the P reviews to see if they like it began. And if they do like it and they'll say, Yeah, well except it on. But, you know, just be there was somebody uses or actually spotted another thing and which is really know him and and then the process continues. So it takes several months. I have to do this now, possibly weeks to do this. But keep going. You're doing really well at this point you're nearly there on, then they'll accept it on. Do they send you a copy of it in a pdf usually and they'll say Come and go through it in a different spending the stakes from typos or anything and you do that. And then a few weeks they said it becomes a publication. So the whole process takes between six months, which is fairly fast to t years and say, Just be mindful that publishing takes a long time to keep it up there. They just think you have to have a lot of work to get to something that's in a published former, but it really is worth. It is quite fun seeing your name on it, and and yeah is really important that people do research so patients can benefit from it, right? So we don't know and say first to give you four things for bits of ice. In addition to everything we talked to, these would be the four things when you say methods. If you do good research and do it really well, you have no problems. Getting published might feel like a slow, but it will be a lot easier to decently. Well, then it would to, you know otherwise, I don't know. Methods look like going a course. Sweets and books ask somebody ask about. It takes a lot of hard work together between six months, two years or more to get a piece of work published. I don't know what to know what my records in terms of time has been quite long. I imagine it's probably it's probably some stuff. It's 23 years hard work employer. So what's the story is the next thing. So what's the story of your ask? Well, why is it going to report be important? What's the impact on patients? Why you doing it? That's, you know, how do you sell it? How do you really sell it? And then the most affordable. Make sure your B party and try and find a team to be part off or make a team around to you ask for advice. This will make things so much easier and so much quicker than trying to do things like alone. Usually a greater checklists and other tools to help you and publishing is probably a kind of go across can be frustrating. So try and find a way of working that's less frustrating for you. And make sure your GI fun things as well. So if you look at their working getting really frustrated by it, you put it one side, then come back to it that we Hey, you do every during the day and then make sure you have lots of fun and and, you know, if if you're really struggling a bit where ask help or go on holiday and then often you can come back and we approach it really well. Okie that's me. Done. Thank you very much for staying with me during this rather long presentation. And behave, we we go across, um, really important things and I hope I haven't skated off too much. I think so. Oh, I did. I honest posted a link to the feedback for him. So please feel that and it's on medal. And if you have a metal a current, it means that you get your certificate automatically Order to prove fall. I'm going to stop recordings that people can feel free to ask questions