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Hi, everyone. Um Welcome to this faculty development series. It's the first session of the series in 2024. Um It's our third time running this series and I just like to welcome you all here today. It's lovely to have you here. Um My name is Nicola Brennan and I'm going to be leading um all of these sessions. Um I'll just give you a little bit of background about myself. Um I'm an associate professor in medical education research based in the Camera Research Group in Plymouth. Um And I'll introduce you to the rest of the speakers in a minute. Um But what I firstly want to do is um just talk through a little bit for those of you who are not familiar. Um A little bit about what the incubator is, um and how this faculty development series fits into it and what we're trying to achieve with this series. Um So I've prepared a few slides which hopefully I'm going to be able to share. Um Let me just check two. Sorry, I'm quite new to me all which I'm sure probably all of you are as well. So just getting used to it. Um There it is, there, there is a chat function on the er device surface and it might be worth just saying if people can say hello just to so we know that people can hear us and maybe say you are as well. Yeah, and hopefully you can all see those slides. Um So the clinical education incubator was um launched in April 2020 by the University of Newcastle, with the goals to build capacity, develop careers and to realize the impact of clinical education and research um and essentially build a national interprofessional community of practice in this space. Um And as part of this aim to build capacity and develop careers, it runs a number of different training initiatives for people at different stages of the clinical education research career and pipeline. Um And one of these is the Faculty development series, which, as I said, already, we've been running for three years now. This is the third year. Um And so the aim of this series then is to essentially to prepare future supervisors for the challenges of becoming and being a supervisor in clinical education research. Um I think all supervision can have challenges, but I think there's different challenges that are unique to, to different disciplines and fields. So, so we want to focus particularly on obviously clinical education. Um And so these sessions are aimed at new and early career supervisors of masters phd and postdoctoral research um the learning outcomes then from these sessions will be um by the end of it is to be aware of the different challenges of supervising in the clinical education research um to have identified what areas you will need to develop in order to further your clinical education research, supervisory skills. Um And hopefully, you will also learn from the experiences of clinical education supervisors. Um So you've probably aware of it already, but just to quickly run through there's six sessions in the whole series and today is the first one and these are the variety of different areas that we're going to be focusing on. Um, so essentials of research supervision for new and early career supervisors that's today. Um The next session then is around mentoring new research supervisors, followed by getting the best other doctoral student or post doctoral researcher. Um Then we'll be looking at EDI in educational research and supervision. Um The fifth session then will focus on leading supervisory teams including working with and across multiple research paradigms, which I think is a particular challenge for clinical education research. Um And also looking at the developmental needs of supervisors in the final session. Um So the formats of the sessions and it's very much a lunch time shot. It's very informal. It's an opportunity to chat about the focus of interest on the particular day to ask questions and to share experiences both good and bad. And the sessions will be recorded OK, so today's session then, as I said already is the first one. and we're going to be looking at the essentials of research supervision for new and early career supervisors. So what are the key things that you need to be thinking about when you set off on your journey as a clinical education research supervisor? Um And we have a panel of different people who are, who have different expertise in different areas um and in different aspects of supervision. Um Currently, we have um Alan Williams who's the academic lead of professional of the professional doctorate program at the University of Derby. I'm sorry, but I use the old slides. So Jill V is not here. We have Megan Brown, um Megan is a senior research fellow in medical education at the University of Newcastle. Um and we also Marie Bryce who's based here in Plymouth with me. Um was supposed to be on the call. She's having a bit of difficulty getting onto me all which we're hoping that she will manage to sort out at some stage. Um and she will be joining us. So that's the panel today. So what I am going to do now is hand you over to um the panel who will just briefly introduce themselves and we will move on from there. Mm um Just to check um that it is recording because I still have that go live button guys um which is freaking me out. A bit. Um, Megan. Can you see that everything is working? Ok. I think we temporarily didn't. I think we've temporarily gone non live. Ok. All right. Um, so should I just keep going? I think we have you press the button. It's, it's, it's, it's got circling around now. So it is, it looks like it's live. Um, no, I think when it's live it comes up in like a different color. I think that means we're not live but I don't know if if anyone can hear us and we are live, please post in the chat. But yeah, please. Ok, the chats um I can hear you. Great. Rachel has said she can hear and see me. Brilliant. Ok, so should we continue then with introducing the panel? I'll hand you over to a brilliant thanks, Rebecca, hand you over to Alan first to introduce himself. Thank you, Nicola. Uh Hi, everyone. Um My name is Alan Williams. I'm a registered nurse background, still a registered nurse. And as I say, two decades, time served in the NHS in emergency care and resuscitation education. And for the last 17 years or something like that, I've been working in higher education and um pre registration and post registration, health professional education and in 2019 with the online nursing and health program and since 2022 leading the professional doctor in the um University of Derby uh College of Health Psychology and Social Care. Um but my education is just a, a thread that runs through my professional career. I really like learning and education. So I've been involved in this is, is really good and talk more in a moment. Thank you very much. Brilliant. Thanks Alan. Um I'm going to head you over to Megan now. Hi, everyone. Um So I'm Megan. As Nicholas said, I work at Newcastle University as a senior research associate, a, a fellow in medical education research. Um I have a background in clinical medicine, but I don't practice anymore. I did a phd in medical education and graduated from that a couple of years ago um and have been working since full time in research and part of that journey has been supervising master's students and I'm early in my journey as a, as a phd supervisor. So that's the kind of the angle that I'll be approaching the discussion from today. Thank you, Megan and welcome Marie. You managed to get on. It's good to see you. Thanks for coming along. I've done the kind of introduction. Um So we're just kind of introducing the panel now and then we're going to move on to the questions. So please introduce yourself to everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So here I am on my phone. Sorry, technical issues. Um So I'm a senior research fellow at Plymouth University. I work in the medical school and the dental school. Um I'm a qualitative social scientist by background. Um I've worked at Plymouth since 2013. Um My research is mostly on professional regulation in the health professions um and clinical education, particularly post graduate training across various specialties. Um in terms of supervision experience, I started supervising my first phd student as a co supervisor in 2017. Um currently supervising three phd students, one of the Director of studies, and I've done a lot of supervision at masters level as well um um masters in clinical education dissertations. And I've also been on our faculty doctoral committee for a number of years. Um So kind of contributing to post graduate student induction um and overseeing various kind of administrative processes in relation to research students. Brilliant. Thanks Marie. Um So, so I've got, we've got a couple of questions that I'm going to ask the panel. But also if there's any specific questions that you would like answered today, um please do put them in the chat, but I'm going to kick off the conversation by just asking each of the panel members to tell me a little bit about their first kind of um you know, supervisory experience. Um You know, what worked well, what you wished you'd known beforehand. Um I'm going to start with Alan again. OK. Thank you very much Nicola. Um Just to follow on from Marie, I feel similar, I'm again and Megan and relatively new to the PGR um supervision process. But I think you build from your postgraduate, taught and probably undergraduate skills as Well, that one has. So, although it is different, it's obviously the highest level of study, the principles are much the same. And I think it's just having that clear process. So I've got four phd students and Director of studies for 1/5 1 that I'm first supervisor for. And again, I'm involved in our college research degrees committee. And so knowing the landscape is probably a good starting point, which you'll know probably from your own studies and your own interaction with colleagues. But it's finding it from a different stand. So actually being organized and referring to your organizations, academic regulations or whatever they call it called manuals, not in academic regulations is in derby and you all have your own. And I think the other thing I'd just say is about that relationship and it's developing relationships with the students, with your supervisors and with the organization. So I think that's probably all I'll say for now and I'll hand over back to NLA. Great. Thanks Alan um Megan. Um Yeah, thanks Nicola. And thanks Alan. I would, I would echo a lot of that and II think that um my reflection as you know, masters as phd supervision is that, that each of those relationships is different. Obviously, there are sort of general principles for learners at each level. Um that, that might prove helpful within the context of that supervisory relationship. But I think my main learning from the, the process of that is that every student sort of brings with them different needs, different things that works, you know, for them in the context of that relationship, how they like to receive feedback, for example, um it can really vary between the different students. Um I think some of the main challenges have just been knowing because those relationships are so different. Um whether something is going well, whether something is really landing with that student and, and actively helping them. So trying to get that two way feedback almost or feedback on your own um supervisory style from the student. Um And I think sometimes that can be um my own experience as a learner is that that can be a little bit intimidating because you've obviously there is a power differential and there is a um you know, you are in a, in a relationship as a, as a learner, you, you need something from that supervisor and you often need their approval um to, to move forwards to the next step. Um So, so sort of developing that space where you can have that kind of open and honest conversation in both directions I think is, is important and challenging and um takes time and support for you to be able to develop that skill set as a new supervisor. I think it's a work in progress. I wouldn't say that I'm there. Um I think it's a, a sort of ongoing um ongoing. Brilliant thanks Megan. Um Marie, do you have anything to add to that. Um I think one thing what Megan just said, kind of made me think about some of my early experiences um having students from different backgrounds and with different levels of experience. Um So one of the first students I supervised at masters, um you know, kind of came into a project, didn't have very much experience at all of research and came onto a project where we'd kind of designed the project and provided a lot of the data. Actually, it was kind of secondary analysis of data from a project we were working on. And then the next student I worked with was somebody who had a huge amount of experience in the topic area. And in research, very much brought their own idea for the topic, had developed the thing um themselves. And so I think your contribution there as a supervisor is really different sometimes and it goes back to what Meghan was saying about those different relationships. Um and the importance of kind of treating people as individuals and kind of tailoring your approach to supervision to what they need. Mm Using the simple hands up feature. And I can't find one on me like I know where it is on zoom. Um I think it's that, that that relationship. I think that's really important that Marie and Megan have said and that's building on, I always see the supervisor PGR students, the doctoral student, particularly as this to counsel and advise and yes, early on in the process, there's probably more that a supervisor will be saying because you, how do you know if you haven't done this before? You have to, uh, lay the foundation, start the process off and probably more hand holding. But in a positive way and just signposting, I suppose is a better word. I certainly remember from my own studies when I was doing a professional doctorate with my supervisors. And towards the end I would ask questions and they'd say, well, you got to make that decision and there's that sort of transfer grown into an independent researcher, I suppose, from, I don't know if there's any medical doctors in the audience, but going from a resident doctor and not a junior doctor these days to a consultant, it's that same process that is becoming more experienced. So, yeah, I think it's that different relationship and a master's student or certainly undergraduate student. It is different in that step. So certainly think about how you will interact with people. Thanks. Yeah, they're really good points. I think what I'm picturing now is like kind of having a, a basic set of, you know, plans for supervision. But then you're kind of tailoring that depending on the person's experience, their needs, their, you know, their are different, um, wants, I suppose. Um, anyone else, anything to add and just on that about thinking about maybe at the start what their trading needs are and kind of things that they need to do alongside the research project that are kind of part of it, but maybe are a bit adjacent to it or contribute to it. So, you know, we sometimes send people on systematic review training courses, they might need particular analysis type courses. Certainly our institution and I'm sure others as well will have kind of post graduate research, skills training programs that students can access. So it's about kind of almost doing that bit of a skills audit as well as you are starting supervision with someone as you're getting to know them, you know, and where their strengths and weaknesses are, as we talked about, kind of helping them to put together a training plan alongside the phd as well. So it's not just about focusing solely on the research topic itself, it's about building those skills around it for them. And if I may come in there, it's also about the type of program doctoral program because the Communist is the M four phd that people default to. And that's the probably the most well known one there is the phd by published work and there's a professional doctorate that I did. And also I lead the program now. And I think those early stages, certainly when you get into the PGR phase for the professional doctor and obviously on the phd and for phd, you're in there from the start there, there's quite a lot of admin at the beginning, probably for the student particularly and for the supervisors to a degree just to set things out. And I think there needs to be a bit of hand holding at that point. Again, the signposting thing and it can feel quite sort of dry. You're going to be writing documents waiting for review. We are the first stage of the application for registration. I'm sure everyone else has similar and then you'll have to get ethical approval and you can't get into your project until you've got your ethic approval. Also, there's quite a lot of them might be just sort of not drink water, but I need to be getting on with it. So you need to say hang in there to them. It's not, this is not a weekend job, this is a full time and ultimately really fulfilling. I think that's probably the big message. So you need to keep them positive. Absolutely. Um And what you've been saying there has prompted me to think a little bit about another aspect of supervision, which is not just around the um you know, the research skills and the training. It, it's the pastoral support as well and you know how it's important to um think about the student as a, as a person um and bear in mind, you know, providing that support for them so that their mental health and wellbeing etc are all being looked after. And um you know, I personally have always kind of, you know, that's just as important in a meeting with my student, um, checking in with them how they are, how they're getting on how, you know what I mean? Because it's particularly a phd, it's a long and sometimes lonely journey and, you know, it's a difficult one and so making sure that, you know, those kind of needs are being catered for as well. I would agree with that. Oh, no, I was just going to agree with what, with what you were saying there, Nicola, I think that um as well as the other thing to consider is that usually most often people completing a phd would be more advanced in their career life tends to happen. Um I had two periods of maternity leave during my own phd. Um So it's just thinking about um the fact that this has to be, it's not somebody's life, it's structured around somebody's life and how you facilitate that. Um because I think often as supervisors, we might be under some external pressures to get this work done. Um And I, and I think that sometimes even if we, you know, we're trying really hard not to let it. I think that can sometimes pull us in the other direction to say, you know, we need to make progress, we need to provide reports. There might be funders that we're answering to and there might be a lot of admin to organize periods of of leave that are additional workload for us as supervisors that we might not have, um a lot of time, a lot of for in our kind of jobs and our day to day work. Um So I think sometimes those pressures can sort of pull us in the direction of, of actually, you know, not feeling, not, not feeling filled with joy when somebody mentions some of the, the needs that, that they have to, to, um, to sort of flourish within their phd program. Um I think that that's sometimes due to external pressures, but I think kind of consciously reflecting on that and thinking a little bit actually, um, you know, where, where are some of my own feelings about this situation coming from is really important, um, so that we can provide the best support to them that allows them to do. Um, yeah, to get from the phd program, what it is that they're looking to get from it and it is a positive experience and I think that's probably the message you'll be sending. There's a lot to do. There is a lot to do. But, um, it's also highlighting the opportunities and what it can give you. I mean, I've certainly found that from my own progress and I'll, I'll hold that up to the students saying, have you thought about, ah, confidence you and you might not, they might not know some will be very engaged with the community and the wider research community, but probably so it's highlighting those opportunities. The three mt three minute thesis national finals yesterday at the University of Derby in there just saying it was a great, there were actually there were three females, three males and I thought the females wiped the floor with the blokes to be honest. And it was really good to see and I think that was all power to them. So, yeah, being positive and it's judging, like everyone said, it's judging the situation and what the person is and sometimes they might need a bit more formal hang on a sec. Do you want to do your ethics in two days or maybe not? And there's balancing capacity and all that sort of thing. But sometimes you need to say, come on and give them the confidence and they can do it. I certainly need that. Yeah. Ok. Brilliant. Thanks. Um I'm guessing because there's no questions in the chat that um people don't have any specific areas that they want to address, but I'm just giving you that opportunity again, like if you have any questions, please do put it in the chat. But other than that, I'm going to push on with the um the questions that we, we, we kind of agreed beforehand that we, we try and cover which is around the first meeting and discussing, you know, what's, what's important to do and to think about and to say in that very first meeting when you sit down with your supervisee for the first time. Um So a and I, I'll start with you again. So we, we talk about being organized and that, that's my approach to academia. To be honest, you've got to have a plan there. At least you can deviate from the plan. And I've got a, we've got a new round of students coming in. Um I've got the first couple of next week I think, the week after and, and what I did once the first time I started, um, it's been last year, uh, particularly I went and put a plan together and that's for all for the student and my fellow supervisors, I director of studies. There are certain responsibilities that you have, they fall on you and rightly so, so being organized, being prepared, I think gives a good, gives this student and I suppose your fellow staff confidence that we can do this. It's a, it's a good degree in project management and time management and organization as we all probably know Megan or Marie anything. Yeah, I'm definitely with you on the organization thing. It can really. Sorry, Marie. Oh, no, go on me. No, sorry. Um, I don't know if I've got a bit of a delay on my audio, so I'm really sorry about that. But, um, yeah, I was just gonna agree that the project management is very important but II think in general, you know, we're not taught an awful lot of those skills and often the universities will have an offer for students in terms of actually bringing them into some of the, um those kind of key project management, time management study skills that we assume people often assume people know and, and have and are on the same page of us. But often that is, that is challenging. I think it's really helpful in those early encounters as well. Um To think a little bit about what the students motivations are for pursuing a phd. So again, as people in research careers, often we can assume that that's where people want to go, that's what people want to do. And that's not always the case. Um You know, it, it might be something that someone is pursuing, you know, purely from interest and passion, it might be a step into industry. Um It, it might be to further their kind of clinical side of their career and they're not interested or they don't feel interested in a research career long term. And I think that that changes the focus of, of, of the work really and, and also of the supervision in terms of what professional development opportunities are you going to be able to signpost them to in the long term? So I think having an idea of that early on, obviously that might change as the student goes through their, their phd and their studies. But having an idea of that early on, um I think is beneficial in terms of tailoring some of that support that you can offer. So, yeah, having, having a clear understanding of what their aims and goals are in the kind of medium long term. Um I think is really helpful alongside that, that project management. Yeah, I like those two points. Um Marie, yeah, so I was just gonna say um I'm similar to Alan, I've got a first meeting with a new phd student next week actually. So I've been thinking about all of this um in quite concrete terms as to what, what we need to cover and things like that and kind of building on Megan's points. I think about checking in with motivations as well as kind of setting expectations or kind of uh understanding both what you as a supervisor kind of expect from the student, but also what the student expects from you in terms of frequency of meetings. Um things like times scales for returning feedback, you know, how often you're going to expect to see something written from them. Um It's about from you and from co supervisor as well. I mean, we certainly here have institutional kind of guidelines for how often you have to have meetings, but they're fairly actually um sporadic really. They're not very often. Um So certainly I sort of would like to see students more frequently than that and the university sets out. Um So I think it's, there's a lot to do about kind of putting groundwork in in the early meetings to kind of set up that relationship for long term. Um So kind of having that framework for the whole project, but particularly in detail for the first year. Um whilst they're going for things like we have project approval processes, um ethics processes, things like that. Um So kind of kind of setting yourself upsetting expectations, expectations around publications, things like that authorship, there's kind of lots of things that maybe aren't important until further down the line, but it's probably important to at least cover at the outset. I think. Yep, they're all really important points. I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I would add to that list. I was just going to say thinking what our institution as it might be worth sharing what we do. And it would be interesting to know how other institutions do. So in academic regulations, it's a minimum of six supervision sessions, whether you're part time or full time, there's no distinction. I think that's right. So you're thinking about every six weeks, two months, I think a meet again, it depends what's going on, you know. Um So sometimes there will be that downtime but encouraging the student to maybe do other things. So maybe the CPD type training, the research type training, who do that session while you're waiting for ethics or your, your initial project approval. Um to come through, we also have streamlined the milestone approach, which I think is good. Um for our head of PGR, this has come up this academic year. So they have a progression review sometime between September and December. And then they have a um annual progress report in May. I think we brought in slightly sooner. We used to have more monitoring almost micro well, it was micromanaging the student and the supervisors, which we're all adults in the room there. So we should have some trust in our processes. So as long as you have clear processes be interested to know what others experience are or what other people have, Megan. Do you want to jump in? Sorry. Yeah. Um No, I think what you've what you've said there and highlighted there, Alan is, is really important and I think just kind of picking up the point you made around processes. Um and, and it maybe a slightly different point relating to that is that I don't know how everyone else feels but as a kind of newer supervisor. Oh, sorry. I think I just, it's not, I'm not sure it's um yeah, it's whether it will satisfy the Tender Hooks. Um I was just going to make the point that um I think it's a new supervisor and I don't know if other people here supervise in other institutions as well. So sometimes you would be invited to. Um one of the things that has happened to me is actually my first experience of supervision was being invited to be part of a supervisory team that was located at a different institution with different processes, often processes that I, you know, I didn't have a university login or an email and I couldn't access that system. And I think because clinical education research happens in these little islands across different university sites, that is something that can happen in terms of collaborating to find someone with methodological expertise or, you know, lived experience or an interest in, in the topic. Um So I think that that can make the processes, you know, even more challenging and it's already challenging as a new supervisor to sort of sometimes know where to start. Um I think, um and I'm sorry if I missed it when I broke up. But II think there's a point made around the sort of mentoring for new supervisors as well. Um I think a lot of what we've touched on, I think this happens informally a lot but being sort of taken under the wing of often somebody um when it's informal, I think it's often somebody within the in the supervisory team who's a bit more senior who's maybe done it before, has experience of relationship development and, and some of the processes that we've, we've spoken about. Um And I think that that can be, be very beneficial. I think there's a lot to be said for formal mentoring as well as a new supervisor. Um But II think that those schemes are a little fewer and far between and often those arrangements end up being more informal um as you sort of get to grips with the um that experience and some of that skill development. Sorry, I don't know if that makes sense because I broke up. So I don't know if that all makes sense. No, it does. It does. Um it can get quite messy though. It can't. And there's so many different arrangements. Is, is there anything different that we're doing, Marie or is it, does it all sound similar? I think it sounds fairly similar. I'm not kind of supervisory meetings are quite as frequent as Alan's maybe sounded out like, I think they're quite certainly for full team meetings, aren't they? They're um, yeah, we, we have a very clunky online system for monitoring, um, everything, all the paperwork, um, which I think is an in house thing that they always talk about replacing and they never seem to get around to replacing, but it's quite, um, yeah, clunky and hard work, but everything is on there online. Um, in terms of um, kind of meeting notes and things like that, go on there so that all the supervisors can review them. Um, we have an annual monitoring process as well. Um But otherwise I think it's all fairly similar in terms of the formal processes. Um I don't sli slightly jumping topic but not really something Megan talking about mentoring. Um for the supervisors made me think something I was thinking about earlier, which is the importance of kind of being embedded in kind of wider groups and wider networks. And I was thinking particularly in terms of that for the students, but I think it's probably also important for the supervisors as well. So in terms of making sure that everyone's connected into kind of wider research networks, be it research groups? Um yeah, kind of wider external networks as well. I think it can be really important doing a phd can be quite isolating um taking on this huge thing on your own. But I think also for supervisors, it can probably be quite important in helping to kind of, as you say, kind of get different perspectives on things if issues do prop up kind of having access to people that you can kind of um discuss things with, talk things over with. Yeah, absolutely. Marie. And that's exactly what this, you know, group was set up for really is to try and pull together a community of practice in terms of supporting supervisors. Um because like, you know, I will normally, um if I'm struggling with something Bend Marie or, you know, maybe Tom who is the director of our group, but I know not everyone has that um that same access to people that they can just, um you know, talk about problems they're potentially having or just get their views on things and it's really, it's really important. Well, in every area of my work, I find it really important. But, um, I think particularly when you're supervising because you do feel responsible for that person and you are, to some extent, to a lot of extent and especially when it's a phd as well. I feel even more that weight of responsibility. Um, Megan's Noggin. Noggin nodding there. No. Yeah, I, II think that the, no, the weight of responsibility I think is really, is really real because it's such a big undertaking. It's so much, you know, it's a huge portion of someone's life and I, especially if they're a clinical academic and they're doing it part time and it's gonna be six years of, um, of a relationship with somebody and of that kind of, II guess not just impact on them as well. Is it because, II suppose, you know, the purpose of such a big, such a significant piece of study is to influence knowledge and to sort of try and create change in whatever topic or field that that person is working in. So I think there's also, there's a responsibility to the individual. I think there's also a responsibility to the, to the field and to that kind of like building that change and that academic knowledge base, which is really quite significant. I think when you're, you're doing a phd yourself, you sort of, it's a bit easier to own that you're very sunk into it. I think as a supervisor, um, where you're juggling lots of other responsibilities and you, you know, all of us are probably trying to keep lots and lots of different plates spinning, I think. For me there's always the worry that you're going to accidentally drop one and, and then, you know, there's consequences, not just on yourself and your own interests and your own work. Um, so, yeah, I, that really does resonate with. Yeah, absolutely. Anyone want to pick up on any of the other points that have been kind of thrown out there? I think, I think we're covering, I wrote some things down just before we started was organization, academic regs and relationships. And I think that and then mentoring I didn't put down, but that really sort of, I think encapsulates the discussions over the last half hour or so, be interesting to know what people think and maybe that's what their expectations are or not or maybe where they are on their potential supervision. Yeah, we'll see if anyone comes in um on the chart there. But um yeah, I'm, I'm trying to think if there's anything that we haven't really kind of touched on. Um It's also interesting what systems you have. I mean, it's a relatively small area so it's not like a huge virtual learning environment, blackboard or mood or whatever. So I think there's relatively limited software and certainly when my studies, when I was a student, um there wasn't anything my supervision notes ended up in a 200 page word document which sufficed. But as far as an organization goes, it wasn't great for auditing. Yeah. And I just hate to think what it had been like with paper. I mean, of course, the world has moved on. Not least the last technology thing, not just because of four years ago, but technology has moved on. We're doing this here now. Um, which is great opportunities, although the face to face contact is good. I mean, my program is online and we have students from Singapore to Caribbean and the UK all over the UK. So um online by default is, is, is the place, but meeting is quite good. And I did meet one of the new students actually very local to us and he's going to probably come up to our new doctoral college, which has been well, nine months now, but a just dedicated space. So I think if you got those opportunities, have those networks and meeting up um as a student and a supervisor, I think that's quite a good forum because you just never know what you might find. Yeah. And I think that like having um yeah, trying to fit your, if there's not like a natural group of phd students that um you know, your student can slot into um like when I was doing my phd, there was about six of us, seven of us doing a phd. We all started at the same time and we immediately kind of bonded and that was our kind of gang and we all supported each other throughout it actually to the point where I'm going to one of their wedding in Dublin this weekend. And so, you know, you make great friends and you support each other. But if there's not that easy, kind of set up kind of um group that they can, you know, be embedded into, I think, embedding them into say research groups. So, so for example, we've got a phd student who started in our group, Marie and I, um, there's not that many other phd students around. So we're trying to just get him involved in all the kind of research activities that we're doing like journal clubs and, you know, social lunches and, um, you know, some of the projects that his researchers align to trying to bring him into that. So he's, he's definitely kind of part of something bigger than just the, you know, his own research I think is really important. Yeah. Ok. The conversation seems to be drying up now. Um, and we've got about five minutes to go and I suppose, um, the last question I had, I suppose that we said we'd dress today and it's good for wrapping up was your, you know, your, your top tip. Um, what's your top tip for getting started? Um, and this might even include how to ensure, um, that, you know, your organization or collaboration is no, you're interested in doing this. But um so I'll just, I'll put it to Marie first. What would your top tip for getting started in clinical education supervision? Wow. Ok. I'll put you on the spot now. So I think, I think it's probably just take up whatever opportunities you can. I think for a lot of us that will be through masters supervision first off, I think, as we said, at the start, that really does provide, it's very different to doctoral supervision in some ways, but it does provide quite a good basis. I think quite a good grounding for kind of building some of those skills. So definitely kind of seek that master supervision experience if you can if you don't have it already joining teams as a co supervisor, if you can and that, you know, might just be a case of having to ask around um for who's putting projects together, who, who's kind of um got potential students. Um You know, it, it can be topic knowledge, it can be a methodological knowledge that you can contribute. But yeah, just trying to kind of get involved and get yourself there because I think it's then easier to kind of make the case for taking on something as Director of studies or for putting in applications as director of studies if you've got that other their experience. Um So yeah, I don't know if I've got any more groundbreaking top tips than that. Thanks for uh Megan. I think my top tip would be to try and establish kind of clear expectations right at the start of that relationship. So everything that we were speaking about relating to project management and developing that relationship and having that kind of two way open kind of those feedback channels throughout the, the sort of path of that project. I think if you can, you know, II don't think you need to be too kind of um formal and, and strict about it, but having some conversations where you lay some kind of expectations in both directions, you work out what the student is looking for from you. Um you have, you know, those set kind of milestones or targets that you need to try and get the student towards yourself as a supervisor. So having that as a kind of open conversation around, you know, can we lay some kind of almost some kind of basic ground rules. They don't have to be too, you don't have to be too kind of strictly adhering to them. But I think it's helpful to just build on as a foundation for that relationship. Right. Brilliant. Thanks Megan and Alan, I think just briefly being organized and knowing your organization's processes not to the nth degree because academic regulations are usually a bit like the Ts and CS and then you upgrade your software on your phone or something like that. But I certainly look at relevant points and if I'm trying to understand them or try to translate them into I speak, so just know your organization's processes in sufficient depth to be able to confident and obviously say when you don't know them, go and find out and be organized. Thanks. Yeah, brilliant. Thanks Alan. So, so, so we've got being organized um setting expectations and getting out there and getting a variety of research experience or supervision experiences in different types of teams. And so I think they're all really, really important tips. Um ok, so, so that's it for today's session and thank you so much for coming along. I hope you found it um beneficial. Um I know I certainly did. Um The next session is on in um four weeks time and in that session, we are looking at um mentoring for um super supervisors. So we're focusing specifically on mentoring um and all things about mentoring and we've got bob mckinley coming along as well to um talk to us. He's part of our panel, but um hopefully you can come along to that session. Um And um yeah, we'd love to see you there, but thanks everyone for coming and hopefully see you again. Thank you. See you then. Thank you everybody. Bye.