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So welcome everyone. And thank you for coming along to this uh faculty development series, um Happy New Year and I hope you all had a nice break over the Christmas holidays. Um My name is Nicola Brennan and I'm an associate professor in medical education and research and I'm the facilitator for these sessions. Um I'm just going to share with you the aim of the series just so you, for those of you that haven't um joined before are um clear about, you know, what we're trying to achieve with these sessions. Um um Sorry. Hello. So, hi, who I can't see there. It's me, Nicola. Hi, how are you? Good. But you didn't need to invite me to the stage. I don't know why I thought I was involved in this today. I'm perfectly happy to be, to be a persic. Don't worry, you've been so involved in it so far. A I couldn't leave you off the stage. So um we're just getting started now and I'm sharing the um the like the the session aims et cetera now. So, but yeah, please feel free to chip in whenever you can. Hi, everyone. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. There we go. Ok. So the aim of this series then is to prepare future supervisors for the challenges of coming and being a supervisor in clinical education research. Um The sessions are primarily aimed at new and early career supervisors of masters phd in post doctoral research. Um So the learning outcomes of the sessions are to be aware of the different challenges of supervising and clinical education research have identified what areas you will need to develop in order to further your clinical education research, supervisory skills and hopefully have learned from the experiences of clinical education supervisors. Um So these are the sessions that we've had to date. And today's session is number four, which is focusing on EDI in educational research and supervision. Um The format of the sessions, they are very much a lunchtime chat. We're just coming along to talk about particular topics relating to supervising um clinical education research um where you have the opportunity to ask questions and contribute experiences both both good and bad. Um And we want to make this session as interactive as possible. Um So we will be asking questions in the chat. Um We will also be inviting you to the stage um as we just invited Ailene to so that you can become involved in the discussions and so that it's more interactive and that you ultimately gain more out of it. Um So please do get involved. We'd really be delighted if you could do that. Um And just to let you know, the sessions will be recorded. Um So, as I said, today's session is focusing on ed in education, research and supervision. And we have a very, I'm delighted to tell you, I've got a very experienced and varied panel today who are going to um uh share their experiences and insights on this really, really important topic. Um So we have Dr Lynel Govender who is a senior lecturer at the University of Cape Town. Um We have Dr Amy Alala who is a lecturer in medical education in Whole York medical School. Um We have Doctor Megan Brown who is a senior associate in medical education at the University of Newcastle. Um Jill is supposed to be here today. I'm not quite sure if she's managed to join yet. She's the lead for the NIH R Clinical Education incubator alongside Brian Burford. Um And she's a professor of medical education at the University of Newcastle. Um And we also have a bonus representative day in a has come along too. Ailene has been involved in previous sessions. Um Dr A Barrett um works for the Irish College of GP in Ireland. So we have a variety of people here who are keen to share their experiences and talk about this topic. And so what I'm going to do now is just hand you over to the panel for them to give a brief introduction to themselves and tell us a little bit about their supervisor experience, particularly in relation to, to EDI. Um, so I can see, uh Lynel, Lynel, would you mind going first? Sure. Hi, everyone. I'm from Cape Town in South Africa. Um, in terms of my supervisory experience, it's a bit strange. Although I'm a senior lecturer, I've just started on my own phd journey about a year ago. So I'm occupying, in fact, a little bit of both roles. Um I've done a, a little bit of work in EDI in terms of thinking around concepts like decolonization and indigenous knowledges in South Africa. And I'm excited to share a different perspective with you from a different country on this panel. Brilliant. Thanks, Lynelle. Uh Am I, do you want to go? Thanks, Nicola. Yeah. Hi, everyone. My name is Amaya. Um As Nicola said, I'm a literary in medical education at medical school. Um So I've been in health professions, education for about the past 14 years across Sri Lanka and the UK, and I've been supervising masters and phd students for about the past five years um and also involved in a lot of different EDI initiatives. So like the said, really happy to um share my experiences and also learn from everyone else here. Thanks, Amaya. Uh Megan. Hi, everyone. My name is Megan. I'm a senior research associate, a postdoctoral researcher at Newcastle University of Medical Education. Um And yeah, similar to Myer and Lynel have got quite um diverse research interests. Um But I'm particularly interested in the experiences of disabled healthcare professionals and disabled staff. I'm disabled, uh multiply disabled, myself and neuro divergence. That's the perspective I'll be bringing today. I'm a newer supervisor. I'm a supervisor of phd and master's students, but it's not something that I've been doing for a long time. Thank you, Megan. Um Ailene Nicola. Thanks so much. Hi, everyone. So I am the academic lead for research at the Irish College of GPS. Um And I also teach on the GP training scheme, but I'm also a lecturer and supervisor for a master's in clinical teaching at the University of Galway with PhD and MD supervision as well. But when I originally joined this group, um and we got in and got involved in the incubator, I was editor in chief of the clinical teacher. So a lot of my, I suppose um interest in ed and educational research has been informed by and continues to be informed by the work of everybody else here on the panel and looking really critically at research design from the perspective of what is the actual um I suppose thinking and approach, is it really an inclusive approach to the education research design, not just involving stakeholders at various different points, but have researchers thought through that? So hopefully we can have a chat about that today as well. Um I've also used everybody on this panel. I've used their work to inform my work in this space as well. So I think that's again, the value of this incubator is generating those ideas and seeing what people are involved in and trying to use those um networks to improve the quality of what we're all doing individually and collectively. Brilliant. Thanks, Aileen. Um We've, I've prepared a couple of case studies today just to kind of get the conversation going and I can see that nobody's put any questions in the chat yet. So what I'm going to do is just pick one of these case studies, we'll all get um going on chatting and talking about this and um in the meantime, hopefully that will prompt some ideas for you to put in the chat. Um I'm going to go with just the first case study. Um So Paul is developing a program grant application which requires a member of the research team to have a diverse background. Um How, how could Paul meaningfully go about identifying and inviting potential collaborators for his team? Does any of the panel want to volunteer to go first on that? What, what do you think? I'll go first? Um I'll feel the awkward silence. Um It's a lovely case study because that word diverse is open for a lot of interpretation. Um But let's say whichever way Paul does interpret his approach to a diverse member of the team. Gosh, I think motivation is really important for me. Like, why are you including this person? Is it just for the grant or are you bringing them in because they genuinely have value to contribute to your research project with a shared interest or something like that? Um We had a discussion yesterday amongst the panel how it can very quickly devolve into a tokenistic practice with someone's occupying a seat on your grant application just because we wanna get the grant. Um Yeah, so I'm happy to add to that dinner. Um You know, just to um sort of echo what they said about um identifying the purpose where you're of inviting someone to join your research team. But also thinking about um diversity through different perspectives. So diversity can mean um diversity in terms of different protected characteristics. But it could also mean diversity in terms of different professional backgrounds, different levels of seniority. Um So when you're asked to include diverse members um or diverse individuals on your research team, you can think of diversity in those terms as well and justify it to say that these individuals would bring something really meaningful to this um project. I think that the language that you use to communicate, the opportunity is really important as well. So I think having a, you know, if you, if you've got a kind of description of the role or of the expectations, making sure that the language you use is accessible and would be the preferred language within whatever community it is that you're trying to reach out to and bring into that project. And I think that connects to what now. And I was saying in terms of knowing maybe a bit about who it is that you want to get involved and why it is that they're getting involved so that you can communicate that clearly. Um We've, you know, in terms of involving people with a variety of experiences in project, we've had some success going through sort of specific networks. But again, you know, if there's a professional group or a network, you need to know what the ask is, why it is that you're reaching out to that exact network. So having all of that really clear upfront before you start making those connections and wading into those relationships, I agree is really important. Thanks Megan. E do you have anything to add? Yeah. No, I was going to say again, I think it's been really clear about what, what the role is about, what's the role in the research and why that this is vital to conducting that research in that way as well. So if this is about, you know, a study about learners, you know, we talk about this in educational research the whole time, you need the learner to help you actually, particularly in qualitative research, you don't just assume how you're going to speak to the cohort of participants. You actually need somebody from that community, whatever it might be to tell you how to speak to that community, you know, so I think that goes across as a Maya said, it's not just about, you know, um protected characteristics. This is actually about thinking about the diversity and narratives that people are bringing um particularly in qualitative research, you know, the different experiences that they have had and perceptions and understanding the, the um the differences in those and how you're going to get that diversity and narrative for a particular study as well. So even just building on that, Megan helped me out with a study earlier this year where we wanted to look at the experiences of female GPS and you know, whether GP was a sustainable career and we've used Megan's love and break up letter methodology. But we had a really big think about how, you know, we were going to think about diversity among this specific cohort of female GPS and recognizing that female GP S have different experiences based on the practices that they're in the geographic locations, whether they're rural or urban. Um And also based on where they've actually done their undergraduate and postgraduate medical training. So we how do you capture all that to make sure you're not just getting this one black and white picture of, of what somebody's experiences might be. You're not trying to make that generalis or even transferrable. Instead, we were trying to tell a story to represent the diversity and the narrative of experiences that people had had. So we very much leaned into that, that love and break up letter methodology to do that. I'm super intrigued about what the love and break up letter methodology is. You should work. It's amazing. So we basically asked these GPS, it was really interesting. So as a starting point in the interview, we asked them to write a love letter and a break up letter to general practice. And we asked them to think about, you know, if you were to have a conversation. So you make this phenomenon into the other person in the relationship. So this relationship is now this individual and the context in which they are working or the phenomenon. And we say, you know, dear John in practice, I love you because I'm thinking about breaking up with you because, and we got them to write and think about where, you know, how strong their feelings were in one way or the other. And we use that as a basis for our discussion then that's brilliant. It took it a level beyond asking about barriers and obstacles. We know what they are because we keep asking those in surveys, but we never get into the depth of it. And what make somebody think about those critical things and let them remember about why they fell in love with this profession in the first place? And are those, are there elements of why they still, why they fell in love with it? Are they still there? Very cool? Very, very cool. Um Before I forget a very practical point, sorry, just to come back to Nicholas case study. Um I think timing things well, helps you avoid some dodgy behavior to put it quite simply. So if the grants like we, we're all in the industry. So you know that the grant comes out and then you've got three months or two months before the deadline and you're desperate for the funding. And so you start making a plan perhaps and you start finding this person who's gonna represent this diverse body on your panel just so that you have a chance of getting the funding that you're desperate for. Um I think that's one of those things you can avoid just by getting your ducks in a row early. So if you don't have your ducks in a row this year, then I think the onus is on both supervisor and students to be like, well, no, if we're gonna do this the right way, you're gonna have to spend the rest of the next year planning. Who's the right person to bring onto your panel and not just doing it in the last minute and finding someone to fill the seats, you know what I mean? Um So I feel like poor planning sometimes is the reason just horrible deadlines and pressures. Why, why people sometimes do things that appear to be not ideal practice. Yeah, absolutely. I would agree that that's really important to think about it at the early stage and not being a last minute, Larry kind of scrabbling around and it actually probably for anyone, it never feels good to be kind of just feeling that you, you're ticking a box for an application last minute. Just, just, just, just to echo that Nicola. Um I think it is really important to get your, your, your, your ducks in a row and some of the big funders have recurrent opportunities to seek funding. So your and, and funders will notice if it is a last minute.com, if it is tokenistic. So you're much better to go for the next round of funding and prepare adequately and have the right um uh approach to the, the research design because you're much more likely to be successful. So it's much better to wait six months, get everything in place and then apply. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Pauline, I can see you're trying to join the main stage and we've been sending you directions. Um Possibly you, you're still struggling. So I'm wondering if maybe you want to put your question in the chat? Oh, I'm here now. I can see myself here. Ah, hello, welcome. Thanks for joining. Um I couldn't see, I still haven't figured out how to have more than six people on my screen. So sorry about that. Um Did you have a specific question or did you want to chip into part of the conversation? I don't have a specific question. No, I'm just um trying to work out how we are going to try and support a phd or AD or some kind of um professional doctorate student in our institution. I work in Norwich Medical School and I run all of the um clinical education program. So we do masters in um diplomas and certificates, but we haven't yet done a phd. So that's why I've joined just to begin the journey. So, yeah, learning and listening, brilliant. Thank you. Um I think we should move on maybe to one of the other case studies um which probably is aligns nicely what you were just talking about Pauline. Um So case study b then. Um So Mozzie is in the second year of her phd. Um She has suddenly become um oh no, actually that's the wrong one. So AJ is a first year phd student planning their project. How can AJ supervisor encourage them to adopt inclusive and accessible practices in terms of participant recruitment and data collection? Any thoughts? Um Well, I think as a supervisor, you need to know what those are to start with and critical, but I think that a lot of people, it's not something that we are necessarily trained in as supervisors. We don't get a huge amount of training anyway. Um But some of these approaches are newer. I completed my phd only a few years ago and it wasn't something that I had come across in my phd training or was provided to me through the training I received in my phd, something that I've had to take some responsibility for educating myself in what an inclusive approach to data collection or analysis or recruitment might be. Um And I think that's challenging when you're time stretched as a, as a supervisor. Um One of the things that I've found quite helpful because I don't know about everybody else, but I learn a lot from the students that I supervise at a master level, at a phd level. Um And I think sometimes having that level of honesty in terms of where you're at and your development is a supervisor with your knowledge of kind of inclusive practices. And, you know, accessibility within research design can be very helpful and you can do some sort of joint learning almost with the students that you're supervising with the learners that you're supervising, um do some sort of set some reading and, and do some of that work together to figure, you know, figure out how, um how that might look within the context of whatever project it is that you're supervising. Thanks Megan. Those are really important points. Anyone else want to add to that? I'm happy to go next. Um Like Megan said, it's, I mean, it, it can be quite broad um sort of applying in Ed Islands to research and there are so many things that you have to think about and things that like Megan said, we might not be aware of ourselves. Um One thing that I've, I've found personally helpful is to think um sort of apply the question. Um Are we inadvertently excluding either people or knowledge because of the practices we employ? Um So for example, if we were doing literature, a literature search, um only in English, um can we justify that, I mean, are we then excluding valuable knowledge, valuable literature because we're not including um literature from other languages. And if we can't do that, can we provide a um suitable justification for not being able to do so? Um and things like participant recruitment, what are the sort of what are the methods we use to recruit participants advertiser projects? We use social media by using social media. We then excluding people who don't engage with social media. So simple things like that. But it's, it's important to encourage our students to then think of it in those terms and think about the practices they employ and whether they can broaden them, make it, make them more inclusive and accessible um to a broader, more diverse range of people. Yeah, they're really important to think about. And the one that struck a chord mostly with me was the the systematic reviews and English language. And often we just for ease and because possibly there's not the funding to get it translated. You, you know, you just go for studies written in the English language and you could be, you know, um missing a whole host of literature. I think that funding is an important barrier though Nicola in my experience, um in terms of designing, say um studies and patient engagement with disabled people, it does require some extra, not always but having um having structures in place for accessibility, for example, being able to offer sign language interpretation. So someone can can participate in a in a in an interview, these things do require more money. Um And so I think being able to be planning upfront, sort of even before you have that student in place in terms of what is that can there be pot of money that is earmarked and set aside specifically for accessibility that someone would be able to access to enable them to recruit um you know, kind of people from a whole range of backgrounds, whatever that whatever those needs are based on the, on the project and, and, and the student themselves. I think it's really important to have that planning. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Anyone else? Any thoughts? Hello, everyone, I might, I might just add to, to Megan's point about the making sure that all those structures and processes and methods are in place. But I actually think as a supervisor, part of it is the role modeling and we talk about this in education all the time, don't we? In, in training in, in health professions? And the role modeling is so important that we are, you know, literally living this. We're not just talking the talk. And actually what they see in us as supervisors is actually, they know we're going to ask those questions so that no matter what they come up with, we're going to say, have you thought about what you're not, you know, what you're not doing and who might you be inadvertently excluding? So that actually it becomes a mindset and it's a, it's an actual approach to a whole program of research that is inclusive and that is the ethos of the study designed from start to finish. And I think if you have that conversation and we've talked a lot about the conversations that you need to have with the student at the beginning, but even seeing where they're at, even, you know, just in their own kind of approach to things as well. Is this a concept with which they are familiar? And is it something that they can actually live out? Um And can they come on board to the same level as you being able to think about how to make this, this piece of work as inclusive as possible? And what could we be doing better in this way as well? Brilliant. Thanks. Thanks a so we've got like, you know, setting aside the funding role modeling, anything else to add? Yes. Yes, I mean, I don't wanna. Hello. Hey, Noo. Thanks for joining. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah, guys. Good evening from this side. I am I am I am a medical student at the medical university. II am I'm interested in research and I have two publications now. Yeah, I'm also, I'm also I'm also a generalist for me, for me, for me, for me, I think that it to to promote fairness in to promote fairness in research. We should consider we should consider all the we should consider all the available data. First of all, you should, you, you should encourage the the the person doing the research to consider the available data. And also they should also identify the surrounding the surrounding factors which, which might cause, which might cause biases and and also and also, and also and also and also which and also, and also, which can also influence on the data itself positively or negatively, which should also, we should also include the safely reported data but also when we include, but also when we include the safe reported data, we have to separate it, we have to separate it from the other data, the the other kind of data. So that, so that, so that, so that so that so that we can, so that we can analyze it separately from, from and then we combine it to see to see whether to see whether to, to see whether the congestion of both that has give meaning or not. We should also, we should also over sample which we should also over sample. The the non dominant, they don't, they don dominant populations to see to see whether there is any correlation with the data or not. And uh ha had also another thing that we should also think about fairness from the beginning of the process until completion. Thank you very much. Thank you. There's some really important points. Does any of the panel have any comments? Yeah, I II quite like the um I think it's important to flag that, that distinction you made between analyzing the data as, as a whole and then breaking it down into the subgroups because that can have a big difference on, on the outcomes that you're interested in. Um OK, I'm gonna move on to the next case study now um because we still have a bit of time left and I kind of wanted to move on to the second case study which is more about um disabilities. I think we've talked a lot about um for example, examples around ethnicity and stuff, but I thought it'd be good to talk a little bit more about disability. So um Kelly is in the second year of her phd, she has suddenly become disabled and her study design is now not appropriate for her new disabilities. Um How can our supervisor support her with data collection and analysis and write up because everything's been kind of turned on its head now compared to what she set out to do. I'll go first if that's all right. Um So I think that there's, there's a lot that can be done. Um, I think it's, and, and hopefully by that point in the supervisor relationship you would have the sort of relationship, um, with a learner where you can have a, a kind of, oh, because it's, it requires quite a lot of vulnerability obviously often to share, um, what's going on in your life. Um, and it can be quite rare to have conversations about what you feel able to do, but also what you don't feel able to do. Um So I think having a, a kind of open conversation in a, in a, in a safest way as possible um with the learner to figure out specifically what those support needs are, is, is the first really important step um taking it from them in terms of if they have any idea, they might well already have ideas about how things could be adapted to allow them to say, you know, maybe move into kind of remote data collection rather than doing a sort of in person type of data collection if that's possible about how things can be adapted. But I think you can't expect a learner or a student to bring every available option and solution um or put that responsibility on them to bring all of the options to the table. So also having a think as a supervisor creatively often it's quite a creative process about how things might be adapted. Um and I think an important role as the supervisor in that context is um you're able to provide that guidance on. Yes, we can adapt it in this way. And um and, and that's going to sit with the methodological literature in this other way. So there might already be examples in methods, literature that you can draw on. Um and, and, and bring in different methods, maybe methods that you're, you might be less familiar with. Um But also do that in a way that's maintaining kind of good practice from a a rigor point of view from a kind of ethical point of view, all of those really important considerations that you have anyway in your mind as a, as a supervisor. Um But while supporting the student to, to make those changes into action, those changes, and then the final thing I would, I would add is in terms of linking students into available support networks. So universities have disability support teams, they look different in different universities, but they will also have a really good understanding of the support that is available locally. Um And I think that as a supervisor, you can be a really um important point of liaison between, between a student and between those services. Um So yeah, making sure that you also um kind of can get in touch with those services. Um They might be able to offer you a support as a supervisor as well. Again, it sort of depends on what's available locally, but there might be networks that you can also access as faculty. Yes. Yes, I can also try to try on something on what told you something on what Mrs Megan. I said, I completely agree with her because for me, because for me, my advisor, my advisor knows that II cannot, I cannot communicate ef effectively, but they keep on, but they keep on encouraging me to do the Google, encourage me to do the best, what I can do the statistics, writing, screening, doing everything to do in the research. Now, now on the presentation, they, they book me with other students so that they give me with us so that other students can present my results on my behalf. I think that's the best way because for me then in that way, I feel II feel motivated and continue to do more and more, more research, more learning. I mean, I feel so happy. Thank you very much. No, you're welcome. II think you're right. I think it's about having that sort of like a candy mindset like this can be done. So you know, there are there are ways that we can change and adapt and flex things and having a flexible approach is beneficial actually for us, students, not just disabled students or students who become disabled, making sure that things are accessible from the ground up. Um It benefits everybody not just those who would identify as disabled. So Um Yeah, I think that's, it's good to hear that your supervisor is like that and I think it's a really important. Yeah. Thank you. Anybody else want to add to that? Um I may um, hi, everyone. My name is Lexi. I'm a phd student at Newcastle. Um and I can um I have similar feelings to the case study that you've said. So I found out that I've got some disabilities about a year ago before I started my phd. But it impacts my clinical work because I'm a pediatrician. And actually the most useful thing that my supervisors said to me was just gave me time to process it. But then also asked me what I wanted and I think my biggest fear was I wouldn't be able to work clinically anymore. And actually, just to be able to say, well, that's not the case we can, your goals can still be achieved. And these are the workarounds. And I think sometimes for supervisors to say that that's really important. So it was really nice to hear Megan sort of share her ideas and thoughts as a supervisor as well. And I think also to appreciate that sometimes somebody might not want to continue with the phd or with whatever project they're doing. And for that to also be heard and accepted because they've probably got other things and their life and how their disability affects them to think about because it's a whole new thing for them or that they want to completely restart their project. So I think having a really supportive supervisor who is able to kind of listen and navigate has been really helpful for me and is definitely helpful in my phd as well. Brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for sharing your experience and it, it's good to hear that. Um You had such a supportive supervisor and anyone want to comment on that. Yeah, I can, I can a suggesting that it will be, it will be, it will be very beneficial to students to create an inclusive environment, the development through which development through which everybody feels to be included and hard. So that, so that, so that, so that that can find people to pursue their dreams and, and go other than other than being laughed at because of their disabilities. I think that's the best way. Yeah, absolutely. Um I'm wondering if we've kind of saturated that that case study. Should we move on to something else? Um Or does anyone else have anything they want to talk about? I'm, I'm happy to move on with everyone else's. Ok. Um So what have we got left? Hm. Mm I think there was one area that we talked about when we, when we met yesterday um which was around sharing areas of good practice regarding ed in in grant applications um and in pulling together PPI teams. Um I suppose just a question for the panel like what would be your main kind of um pointer, I suppose in, you know, regarding this. So, so in terms of EDI in grant applications and PPI teams, I think we've covered some of it already. It's about kind of being timely about it, thinking about it at the early stages. Um A any other thoughts I think for me, Nicola, it's about recognizing that it's important and that it might be an area where you don't feel particularly skilled and therefore to acknowledge that and to reach out to colleagues um and ask for advice and support as to what good looks like from an EDI perspective in a grant application, I think emphasizing that proactive early consideration. And um but often you need to be stimulated to think about some of the areas that I think, you know, has been beautifully described by the panel in terms of some of those considerations. So you do need to draw an expertise um uh and we, and, and therefore to try and find those connections, those people, those um those researchers who are experiencing the area and, and building those conversations, right from an early point in the research process. So just be a habit of awareness and, and, and, and raise your hand and say, look, I don't feel particularly skilled in this area. Can we have a conversation as to what good might look like? Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are kind of toolkits as well, although, you know, obviously they all have their own limitations, but they're also a good place to start. For example, the NIH R have particular toolkits for like thinking about EDI when developing your grant application, thinking about PPI when developing your grant applications. So I think, you know, having a look at the toolkits and speaking to people as well um would would set you on a good ground to, you know, to do your best at doing that. Uh mm Anyone else? I think that we come to with a grant application usually with quite a well formed idea already about what we want to do. And then we think about EDI rather than actually starting that process. And I think when we say kind of right from the start, even setting the research priorities and thinking about what it, what questions you want to ask, what topics are important. If you can start that out working with a diverse group, people are a diverse community or the community that the research is going to affect, then I think that EDI will be more naturally threaded throughout that process and you'll already have some relationships established with a group of people who might then be able to, to help kind of cosign some elements of that grant application with you. So I think even pre I think that um that thought of kind of having it from start to finish extends. Yeah, absolutely. Any anyone else, any thoughts and Nicola just on a practical note just to say, a lot of organizations now will have um PPI networks. Um We developed one this year in the Irish College of GPS. Um originally on the basis of our ethics committee because we've quite a, a big cohort of PPI representatives. We wanted to grow that on our ethics committee. But actually, we got so much interest. It was really interesting. We got so much interest from a PPI network that we actually created a panel of PPI representatives who would help us with other opportunities, um whether it be to engage with other projects within the college or other advocacy issues or initiatives or whatever. Um So a lot of the institutions may have a PPI cohort who are already sort of maybe a little bit informed about what the particular institutions priority is or, or research priorities are and may already be aware of some of those and those people could be actually named on that grant application with you then. So I think again, in terms of moving things to stakeholder engagement, to actual meaningful PPI involvement, I think it's having a named person on that grant application with you, where appropriate and where possible given the, the the the grant criteria that can really be a strong statement of, we're not doing this without the people who are going to be involved in this. We're not just involving them at different times, but actually, they have complete involvement from start to finish in this as well. And I think that's a really strong statement depending on the, the project. Brilliant. Thanks, Aileen. Um, ok. So we've got about four minutes left. I think we've covered a lot of ground today, um, and had some really, really interesting conversations. Um I'm just wondering if we couldn't just wrap it up by, um, each panel member giving us their kind of their top tip or the most important point in relation to um Ed and educational research and supervision. Anyone want to go first or should I pick on you? I'm happy to go first. I think what stuck out most for me was Megan's point around having the funding to do it. Um Having the funding set aside for EDI in whatever kind of research project you're working in is, is crucial and will facilitate kind of effective um EDI in your project. Anyone else for me? I think for the electronic data interchange, the best way is to have a network of don't need to experienced people in that field, be being, being surrounded by a network of people that you can rely on with, with the exchange for me. That, that I think that that's the most important thing. According Thanks G um Nick. I think what it's really reinforced for me is the actual advocacy role that we have as supervisors. Um And you know, within a grant application, we have very defined boundaries around projects, but actually we need to recognize that sometimes we need flexibility on that too and sometimes life happens and we need to be able to pivot and we need to advocate for that student to be able to do that. So that's something I hadn't really thought through before today. So I think that's really important. Yeah, I agree. Thanks. Ailene. II. Think related to Aileen's m my take home would be the importance of as a supervisor, being proactive and partnership. Um Having like a kind of partnership driven approach to that supervision. So um supervisor often sounds quite sort of top down, doesn't it? Like there's a, there's a kind of implied power, Dyn. Well, there is a power dynamic except that even in the term rather than being a sort of more of an adviser to the student. Um It is their project and you're in, you're in a partnership with them to help them. Um take that in whichever direction is that they choose and is best for them at that moment in time. So that would be my take home for me. I think it's um always trying to look at things from the perspective of others. So either from the perspective of your supervisor or from the research participants, um because something that might seem very natural, very commonplace to us might be completely different experience to someone else. So always trying to look at it from that perspective, might open eyes to other people's experiences Thanks. I think. Good, good. E EDI is a learning process. Whether a supervisor or supervisee. I, it would flag that there are resources that research teams can access, which I think we should um are good places to start in terms of looking at, at what good looks like. Um I think it's something that we had talked about um in one of our research projects was, was drawing on a member of the community that you're interested in. Um being part of the mentorship with the supervisee so that you've got somebody who um lives and is in that community to bring that insight to the research design process. So that might be a co applicant on a big research grant. But actually, there's often an enthusiasm amongst individuals in that particular community to support research. We just need to reach out and ask for it and to have that degree of, of and to have some element of mentorship or, or advice and guidance. I think members of the community are very happy to, to offer that. So being open to continually learning within the research process. Excellent, thanks, Joe. OK. It's, it's two o'clock. So I'm going to close this session. But thank you very much to the panel for coming along today. And more importantly, thank you to everyone else who has participated. We really, really appreciate you coming along to these sessions. Um We learn from you and hopefully you learn from us. So it's a win, win all around. Um Hopefully you can come along to our next session, which is on the 13th of February. And in that session, we are looking at leading supervisory teams um including working across multiple research paradigms. Um So hopefully that will be of interest to you and we will see you then. Thank you very much everyone and have a good day. Thank you. Bye bye.