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Thank you, everyone. Take a seat. If you haven't already found your seats, there's plenty at the front. Uh Don't, don't be shy, don't worry, relax. Uh Thank you so much, doctor holidays. I hope that was interesting. Important and open your eyes to what's going on amongst our workforce where we see the R C are going and I would encourage you all to get onto social media and, and uh make your voice heard, get your opinions out there and get involved where possible Junior Radiologist Forum, Twitter. It does make a difference if you speak out and say your peace and, and provide your opinion. I just forgot to mention earlier regarding food. So, teas and coffees are available throughout. Make sure you help yourself. It's a buffet at lunchtime. The chicken is helal the nuts. There are no nuts, but we can't guarantee there's no cross contamination. So if you have a severe allergy come and talk to me, but you can help yourself later to the buffet, I think that's all I need to say. Uh So I want to introduce our next speaker. I've got the slides up and let me just find my little spiel. Um I'm very excited about the speaker. Our next uh lecture will be from Doctor Cindy to she's a consultant radiologist, hospital, sub dean and Director of Imaging and Anatomy, uh an honorary associate professor at Glasgow University. She's the founder of the website, the student radiologist dot co dot UK. Some of you may know it. If not, I would look at, it's a great resource uh for medical students or budding future radiologist. Uh There's some great stuff on it. So please do check it out. It's a student radiologist, uh the student radiologist dot co dot UK. And it's also very passionate about diversity and radiology. Uh and the role uh and has uh interest in supporting medical students in learning about radiology's role within medicine. Uh Basically, I'm sure you've all found that radiology is kind of lesser known when your medical school. Oh, and doctor choose making active efforts to change that. Her interest in using imaging town, medical students learn about medicine. Thank you. Form the basis of her phd and ongoing research to explore the radiology in medical student education. She's a great supporter of the S R T. She's a great champion of equality, diversity and inclusion and she has some very important things to say that's relevant to all of us. So I'm very much excited to present doctor send you to, to the It's not your smile, your eyes. Who's that teacher? Thank you very much. This is such a pleasure. And this is just wonderful thing. All you people here and I hope, I hope my talk lands okay. So it's a bit of a difficult topic. This not exactly like reading as my husband says, when he was made to, forced to sit through my prep. So, yeah. Okay. Let's go, let's go here. So, so, okay. So my disclosure, I had a small grant to look at how, how to teach medical students to be good active by standard. So the topic today is really quite a large topic. Um Cath Doctor Haliti has heard me speak on this. Uh but um Sandra dropped a few words in in this thing and it's now a massive topic about, about uti and it's important to all of our health and well being and not just in radiology. So let's let's get into it. So the Equalities Act was passed in the UK in 2010. And what that means is that people with any of these nine characteristics are protected in the UK under the law from any sort of discrimination and it's not just them, but it's also people who are related to them. Okay. And so I think at this point is maybe important to point out that diversity is more than just what we can see as visibly different between us. So ethnicities is obvious our age or gender, but they're also invisible diversity that we should be maybe be keeping in mind when we talk about these kind of subjects such as somebody's socioeconomic status, um the underlying beliefs in culture. So it was a bit of a thing this weekend that happened. And uh and I like to kind of say to you that I think health and well being are basically two sides of the same coin. And E D I is right at the heart of it because, and, and this really holds true for us as a society um in work as doctors and radiologists and also you individually as, as a person because we are not just radiologist, we're not just doctors were also citizens of the world that we live in. So research shows that problems like poverty, unemployment all have an impact on shaping our individual health uh and also contribute to health inequities. So what is health equity, health equity means that everybody has a fair and just opportunity to be healthier and to get that we need to remove all the barriers to health such as poverty and discrimination. So I thought I'd do a little kind of pictogram on that. So poverty plus discrimination results in reduced health and well being. And what that results in the individual and societal level is that that combination results in increase powerlessness, decrease access to good jobs, decrease access to fair pay, decrease access to health, really better fair housing and decrease education. And all of that goes into a vicious negative cycle. And I think it's really important that we as citizens, as doctors and as radiologists. Keep that in mind because the end point, if we don't keep an eye on that is this, this is what happens. And then you think while Cyndi, you know, that, that kind of trouble, nothing to do with us here in the UK, it's, it's war torn countries, you know, people are not treated fairly there, but really it isn't, it is actually impacting us here in the Liberal West. Um It's happening in the US, it's happening here in the UK. And this is a, I think this is the most striking example and I'm, I've seen some nodding heads here that you know this to be true. If you're a black woman, you are three times as likely to die and four times as likely to die in the UK from childbirth, then you are compared to a white woman. And as we know, there's something called the COVID that happened in the last few years and the impact of COVID on our health, literally people dying wasn't distributed equally. And that in part triggered this uh commissioning, commissioning of this report by Sewell into, is there really a problem here in the UK? And in short, nobody does to line summary of this report is that the report says there may be individual acts of racism in the UK, but there certainly is not institutionally racism. In fact, all the ills of the world is resulted from single parent families. Uh And if you think that there is racism, it's in your head, you're imagining it. And uh very quickly after the report was issued, uh it was so outrageous and egregious that the experts in the U N felt they had to comment on this. So that's the kind of World station my husband said you need to rein yourself in please. This is, this is a talk to S R T. So we'll try, we'll try and bring it back to the kind of radiology and radiologist context. So hopefully at the end of this, you think and here and, and maybe, you know, go and read up a little bit more about the importance of equity, diversity and inclusion in the work environment, particularly in radiology where we have as Catholics said, uh workforce crisis and the impact when this is lacking, reflect on idea on your own work environment and also reflect a little bit of, of, of this in a kind of more societal context. So I was asked to share this session um at PCR recently, you know, the need for diversity. That's the title of Decision in Radiology and, and with the kind of gender lens on it and uh some notes there. And uh and yeah, and so I thought that's, you know, I could maybe use that a little bit and I want you to kind of, you know, the words examples. I'm going to give you is going to be based on gender, is gonna based on race. But really, you can replace that with any number of the kind of minorities characteristic because the things that I'm talking about will apply. So the first thing I thought would consider is diversity a good thing. Is it really a good thing? We talked about it a lot, but really is it really good? So the need for diversity in radiology, what is diversity? We talk a lot about that. So diversity is, this is Vernon Myers very famous quote, diversity is being asked to a party. Everybody's come along to my party. Come along. Inclusion is when you're being asked to dance at this party, you're not just coming along, standing in the corner being ignored, you're being asked partake actively in this party and belonging, which is what Michael West and Cath was talking about belonging is when you're dancing like nobody's looking right? Don't not, you're not being watched, don't feel you're being watched. So if you have time for the summer holidays and you're looking for a book to read, this might be a good book. And in it, Matthew side says that if we are intent on answering society's most serious questions such as climate change of poverty, what we need is to work with people who think differently, not just accurately. And this is because teams of rebels always beat teams of clones. We know that from Star wars too, right? And that collect, this is because collective intelligence emerges not just from the knowledge of, you know, the, the knowledge of individuals, but also from the differences between them. So Google, I think it's pretty smart. I Google multiple times a day when I'm stuck for information and this is what Google thinks about diversity. Okay. So in 100 2015, they spend 100 and 50 million on their workforce initiatives. And then five years later, they spent 100 and $4 million in grants to advance racial equity. And last year, they pledged to spend $2.5 billion to work with diverse suppliers. That's a lot of money, I think. Um And you think we're all sitting there going well, Cindy, that's Google. Why are you telling me about that? They're worth, I've got this piece of paper here, 900 billion with an annual turnaround of 200 billion, right? So how, how is that relevant to me as a radiologist or as a doctor in this room? Well, it's relevant because actually did you know that the NHS England's expenditure? It's almost the same as the turnover of Google. So are we spending as much as Google on diversity? Are we valuing diversity as much as Google is, have a think? So there's lose of evidence cast already shown you and discuss this, that diversity is good is really good for, for, for, for patient and the patient outcome because it helps organization improve patient care and financial results. It shows that outcome is as good if not better uh women's surgeons compared to, to, to mail surgeons. And it's the same with physicians. Okay. So really diversity is good thing and, and again, for ethnicity and again, like I said, you know, all the stuff that I just, I am going to be shared and I have shared with you, replace it with any number of minorities characteristics it holds. So hopefully, I've made the case to show you that diversity is a good thing. Now, look at each other in this room. This is fantastic, right? This is a wonderful, you know, and of course, all those people on television as well, television. Uh but it's radiology, a good thing is, is radiology diverse or is radiology diverse. Sadly, radiology remains one of the least diverse fields in medicine and you wouldn't really think it looking around this room, right? But we are so again, put that gender, replace it with anything you want in, in, you know, all around the world. Really, women are making up at least half, if not more than half of medical students. And when we're not attracting them into radiology for whatever reason, don't understand a lot of women in this room, but we're not really getting it there and that's just radiologist. And then if you look at positions of leadership, it's even less. And that's part of this thing that's across medicine where, where you have this really good big numbers on the left at the start and then it absolutely trickles the way over to the leadership positions. And this is what we know is called the leaking pipeline of women again, replace it, whatever minorities group. So this statistic came out uh from the World Economic Forum just before COVID and I was shocked, right? And it says that it, it will take 99 years to bridge that gender gap on the world basis. And you kind of go well again, you know, it's the world's and then do the UK two years later, the result, two years, not only have we not bridge that gap, that gaps widened and it's widen massively, right? So this, this is what's happening in the world today and you think that that's just the world is not happening in medicine, we're all super equal, we're not super equal, okay. Wherever we are, we're not super equal. In fact, we are backsliding on gender equality in medicine. Okay. And, and it's a, it's a constant reminder to all of us that progress is a constant struggle. And I mean that it's a struggle and we have to keep at it. I would like the slide given by a Joyeux professor in Stanford. She says that promotions in medicine, if it was a video game, again, insert any number of um you know, minorities characteristic here if rules were like Mario collecting coins to level up um women or whatever minorities group will have fewer coins available to collect because there's buyers and opportunities given to us. We, our coins are more difficult to find because of the buyers and the recognition. And we need to collect more coins to level up because there is bias in the promotion process. So this is where we stand in this paper looking at radiology and, and, and the kind of level of leadership and, and, and the people in the academic radiology here, and you can see from 2007 till today pretty well. Zero change. Absolutely flat line. And so, you know, that's leadership. But what about pay? Because that's, that's important too. And, and in fact, there is a gap and radiology, in fact, is one of the worst gaps um in, in all the other branches of medicine. So we're not really doing great here. And this of course, reflects the data that we do know from the BMA saying that men, all the men here are super happy. Um Men earn 20 to 30% more than women. And I was genuinely shocked, right? I was thinking, well, in the UK, we have like a standard pay rate. So we all started the same, what's going on? How can this be possible? We know Americans negotiate privately, the starting pay that all that kind of perks. But the UK, we don't have this problem. So, so what's this all about what this is about is that women are penalized because of the extras that people get okay. The extras beyond your standard, period, your A C, your C A awards that's in England discretionary points, whatever you want to call it. So they get extra and women, women don't. So that's a problem. So that's gender. What about ethnicity? We're not really doing so good on that either. Um Cath has already shared this, she shared the report and she's shown you what, what happens in the report. These are some of the other stats that's in there, which I think is pretty shocking to. So if you're black or ethnic minority, you are much less likely to be to be accepted into medical skill and you're much less likely to pass any of the professional exams. And in fact, you put a number on it, right. You're actually 2.5 times more likely to fail than your white person. So, so this is, this is something very wrong and that's wrong and bad enough. But actually, this is even worse. I think if you're a black and ethnic minority person, you're twice as likely to be referred to the G M C. And again, that particular paper looking at gender, it looked at ethnicity well, flatlining there too. So, so we're not doing great and like I said, insert any number of minorities characteristics and the disability report says the same thing and there is a ethnicity pay gap, what's going on? I mean, what's going on, you know, as from 2007, you know, people like Cath and I have been talking about this way ever. Why, why is things not just improving is actually dis improving what's going on? And I think this piece of people that came out recently may point a clue to what, what's going on. So you look in this room, perhaps you look at people like Cath and all these wonderful speakers that we're going to be coming out and speaking to you today. And you think this is brilliant, right? This is great. How diverse our leadership, how wonderful, look at, you know, a whole group of people are totally divert these wonderful, we don't have a problem. And then when you actually pull them, what happens is that even though we know, and I've shown you the stats not made up of exactly how non diverse we are and how there is really a gap in all sorts of things that do matter. Um People have a cognitive dissonance, they seem to because we see this different lurk around us. There is no problem. There is absolutely no problem. There is no need for equity initiatives because we're there already. So in fact, what happens is that people think there is no problem. And so when you suggest any kind of equity work, they say no, no, there's no need for that. There's no need for that at all. Uh In fact, I don't support equity work because there's no problem, this is not fair. So, so this, I think is something that we need to really work on to really advance things if we really want to and, and you know, people just don't seem to get it. There is a cognitive dissonance going and, and I think this is a really important point why people stop supporting equity initiatives and equity initiative really important. And this may be a point. They want to talk about some words, what they mean. Equality is a good word, right? We all want to be treated as equal. So equality means that you treat everybody as equal. So this is a cartoon I really like. So everybody there wants to cheer on the football team. So we treat everybody equally. They can't really see because there's a fence blocking them. So you say right, we're going to treat everybody equally. Everybody gets a box to stand on. So everybody gets a box to stand on and the black guys going, yeah, this is great. My team is winning and the little kids kind of going can't see there's no use for him, can't see the boxes doing him no good at all. What is needed in that situation is that we need to take the box away from the black guy because the black guy can see anyway by the way, has nothing to do with ethnicity. Here. It's just this picture. So we we we don't need to give that tall adult man a box because he totally can see without, without, without needing any assistance. But if we give that box to the kid now everybody is cheering on. This is equity, my team winning. Great. And we need to be at equity now so that we can get to justice. So justice is where everybody can thrive with no need for any additional help. And in this scenario, there is no big fence made of wood or whatever it is, everybody can see that team play with no no additional need required. So we to get there, we need to first have equity, okay. We need to do and make individualized support for people to allow them to thrive. So any number of like reports, whatever they will say, we need to do more and we need to do better and it all boils down to culture. Culture change is what's needed. So what does it really mean? Culture change, what culture change means and needs is accountability, our leaders, our managers, people that are in charge need to be accountable for this culture change. And so the institution, the organization needs to have institutionalized equity programs and to do that, we need to have standards and targets that we can hold our leaders and our managers accountable to. And we all, each of us have a responsibility. It's not just our leaders, it's not just up to Cath to like bring about all these amazing changes that we need. We, each of us need to do our bit and we all need to be allies to those people that need our help. Okay. Ally ship is absolutely key. So what does equity and ally ship look like? Here is the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons and they are absolutely streaks ahead and the rest of us and this is what they are doing by 2027. They are pledging that they want to see 40% of their trainees, the registrars entering surgery to be women, 40% to be men and 20% to be of any gender. And they want that same target to be applied to representation of women in their college leadership roles. So that's what equity is about. And the reason like I said in earlier slides is that if we don't have equity, we allow this kind of situation to happen. You know, you guys may have read about Becky Fishers piece absolutely blew everybody away about how there is all this sexual misconduct that's going on in surgery. And, and it's so good to see that last week, these people, you know, led by the College of Surgeons and the GMCR meeting to try and root out any sort of nonsense, sexual misconduct that's happening across medicine. But you and I both know it's not frank aggression. Frank aggression is easy to recognize. Yeah, it's the daily, what we call micro aggressions. The daily small rudeness and disrespect that we get in the workplace that is like dying by 1000 cuts every day. So what is rudeness? What's disrespectful behavior? And why is that important rudeness we can, like I said, you know, aggressive, shouting all that we know, but talking over somebody undermining them, belittling them, these things are disrespectful and when you try and confront them, often they say to you, it's always like that or they say the gas like to you and say, well, I didn't mean it that way. You're just being overly sensitive. But I think it's really important that we hammer home right now. It is not about their intentions. I don't really care about their intentions. What's really important is rudeness is defined but the interpretation of the recipient, okay. It's the impact, not the intent that matters. And why is that important? That's important because the recipient of that disrespectful behaviour, their performance absolutely goes, you know, down plunges can't work because they're spending all that time worrying and it's not just them, not performing anybody by the sideline watching this happen will be like totally freaked out and their performance goes down as well. And not only that they were going out, I'm not going to, I'm not going to stick my head over the parapet. I'm not going to try and stand up and help Cindy there because I don't want to be the next person to be shouted at. And what that means really is that if we allow rudeness to happen in the work environment where we are doctors and trying to look after patient's, this will result in our patient's dying unnecessarily. Some of you may or may not have seen this TV program based on Adam Kay's book. This is going to hurt, but we don't really need a fictitious book or maybe semi autobiographical because this is kind of happening in real life. I was, I was in our send a with Cath when this piece of news hit the news. Uh and, and we heard the inquest that Dr Kuma committed suicide and a big reason was how she was treated at work. And what I thought was really upsetting about it is that she was only one of four people who died in that trust in that one year. So that brings us to this not very pleasant subject of suicide among doctors. So as doctors, we are already at a higher risk of suicide than the general population and the rate of suicide is going up and look at the bottom number there. As women doctors, we are almost four times as likely at risk of suicide compared to men. So this is actually shocking. So a few months ago, the NHS the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges published this report and saying that we must stop normalizing the unacceptable and and can Cath has kind of touched on this, right? Because what is a problem here is that we are working under tremendous stress at the moment, under very difficult conditions and we're trying but failing to deliver care that we, that we want to deliver for our patient's. And what that is really doing is creating a moral injury in each and every one of us. And we just end up fighting with other colleagues, you know, instead of actually working collaboratively for the for the patient's good. And the college, of course, Cath has said has, has produced this information which is very helpful to show us that there is a massive gap in the radiologist that we need. So this small thing kind of happened recently. Um And you know, and it's really something that some of you may or may not have been kind of involved with. And I think Gabby is absolutely right. And that this is not just about pain. So you are the generation that grew up during the first financial crisis. And I think it's, I mean, I don't even know what the adjective to use here is a billionaire guys telling us the subtle differences between that first financial crisis and the current banking financial crisis that we're going through. So you guys grew up through that thing and you guys are obviously affected by, by, by COVID an impact it's had on your, on your training. So perhaps even though I'm not a junior doctor anymore. This might have something to do with it. Perhaps the expectations you might have had coming into radiology of being a doctor and the reality of actually doing that work, perhaps there is a lack of fairness, perhaps there's a lack of respect and perhaps there's a lack of belonging. So how do we, how do we address that? We need to make people feel valued and how do we show that we value somebody, we pay them appropriately, we give them promotion, we value their work. We put them up for leadership roles, they may get publications, they may get grant funding and all of the all of that join up to give a positive feedback of increased prestige and giving you this positive warm glow feeling of being valued. And all of that of course, stems from this Maslow's hierarchy of basic human needs, right? For us to really thrive and self actualized as their words or achieve once full potential, we need first the first layer to be filled, fulfilled. And that's physiological needs, food, water and rest. We all need rest. Are you getting the rest that you need? And in our work as doctors, what we want for self actualization is to have optimized best patient outcomes and to do that is absolutely vital, absolutely vital that we feel a sense of belonging and that we feel esteem in our workplace because let's face it, Cath talked about, you know, there's a workforce crisis here in the UK. But actually there's a massive international global shortage of radiologists. And my work shows that across, you know, the last 13, 12, 13 years, there has been no increase in the number of radiologists that's been added to the G M C register under the special under radiology know increase exactly flatlining there. So Cath has shown you this, she showed you some stats from that report and you know, the politicians will tell you we've got ever more doctors. You are so you should be so grateful. You got so many doctors and those number of doctors are not from homegrown UK graduates. Huge numbers are coming to help us prop up our NHS um by international medical graduates. And those as Cath had said, numbers of international medical graduates are coming to us are also leaving at a much higher. Great. And they've said the G M C have put it to our employers to say they must step up and look closely at why these I MGS International Medical graduates are. In fact UK graduates are leaving UK practice. I wonder is it because they feel undervalued? Is it because they have no sense of belonging? Are they disrespected? Are they feeling burnt out back to that Maslow's hierarchy of needs? And of course, we cannot talk about workforce crisis and not address burnout. And why is burnout? Why is burnout important? Why are we talking about burnout? The reason burnout is important is because of all these things, right. Burnout is associated with increased safety incidents for patient's and all these kind of bad stuff. And so what are mass likes drivers of burn out? And this kind of will chime with what Michael West talks about when there is a values conflict. You know, there's a problem the way what you think is important and important, you know, value and what your your system things is important. There is no alignment, there, there is an absence of fairness, there's a breakdown of community, we stick to our little silos, we do our own little work in their own little workstations and ignore what's happening in the rest of the world, rest of department, rest of the hospital, lack of control, huge work overload and insufficient rewards for that work. So, you know, those are the drivers of burn out and we need to address them. And the thing about it, the stupid thing is really, it's so important to address this because our doctors well being and keeping the doctor happy and well is super, super important and it makes super clear financial sense because to replace one doctor, one doctor that has left your service of your hospital for burn up or whatever reason, it costs about a million dollars to replace that. So in fact, this paper says that physician well being must be number one one and and operationalized in in the board's actions, you know what the board does has to be all about how to keep us happy and well. And in fact, this is Doctor Murphy, he's the American equivalent of the chief medical officer in America. And he says toxic workplaces are bad, not just for mental, but also for physical health. And he's literally his whole kind of public health message was about people needing to attack the toxic nonsense that goes on in the workplace. And what why, why, why are we doing that? And this is why, right? So in the NHS it literally costs us two point almost 2.3 billion every year dealing with this quilli of bullying and harassment. So as somebody in this room might be a champion of why are we not just doing it right? The first time, save some money, treat people with respect, treat people well and then we can take some of that money and actually spending on patient's improving our work lives. So do it right. Do it right the first time because clearly there's a financial benefit to doing that and the G M C is onto this, right? You guys maybe have filled out. I hope your G M C survey last week which closed and, and Colin Melville's onto this. He says that if training suffers, if you guys get rubbish, training, the outcome one or the other way is that patient safety is a consequence. And so the G M C asked you in your survey very specifically. Do you or did you see any evidence of discrimination? And the reason is because they have changed the guidelines? Right. So is now the G M C puts it on us, our responsibility to tackle any kind of is um, at work if we see it. So they're putting it online with, if you see a colleague coming in, drunk on drugs, you have to do something reported. They're now saying the same thing. If we see a witness, any kind of ism network, okay. So they're putting it on us, we have to do the work. So last few slides, now the G M C's report, the summary of the report was we would all be mistaken if we think of inclusion as an ethically right thing to do, which of course it is, they're saying that actually it is crucial. If the NHS wants to retain its workforce, it is absolutely vital because without that we're finished. And if we don't take tangible actions, we'll be doing a disservice, not just to our colleagues, but also to the patient's who are needing their care. So let's do that together, right? This is really important here. We people in leadership can only do so much. You need to demand it. You are the future. You have a voice. Lara talked about social media, but literally even in the G M C surveys, you guys can do this, okay. You need to demand this that we snap out and stamp out the gap that exists because as you know, we only have power if we stand together. And you know that whole thing about they came for the black people who did nothing, they came for the Jews, we did nothing. And then when they came for me, there was nobody left to stand up for me. So we all have to do this together because it is the right thing to do. So what do we need? We need to strengthen that leaky pipeline. We need role models, we need mentors, we need sponsors, we need ally ship, we need to do this. There's a couple of really good papers that you might want to be interested to read. One is called the intersection of diversity and well being but my friend Nolan could get sue. This is another paper written almost 10 years ago. Now, twin papers uh by the College American College of Radiologists and really excellent telling us on the one hand, why it's important and what challenges and recommendations we can do to address this. But to distill it all, what we need is we need structural and organizational by it and accountability because without that, you know that we're not going to really advance this okay. And that means the college RCR, that means the Dean Ary, that means our training schemes and that means our hospitals and NHS managers and we need visible leadership. We need role modeling, we need mentoring, sponsoring and coaching. We need on an individual level. Each one of you need to be a diversity champion and systemically, we need to have safe reporting systems so that we standing up for what's right, don't get victimized for doing the right thing. And the uh our cr is doing lots of really good things behind the scenes. So watch out, watch out for that and be participating in it. But in short, we can't just have an equality situation. We need to have an anti discrimination policy. Okay. It's not okay. Just to allow the status quo to continue, we need to be actively against discrimination because this is the current state. This guy on Twitter, I love Twitter. You see also some weird things. So he says this is absolutely true. You know, we need, we need suggestions, how can we retain doctors, doctors tell them what to do and then the answer Mario says it's no. And I also think this is true coffee shop sign that says with the whole world and this is so true and every, every, every field that we see, you know, the world is the whole world's shorts down, you know, be kind to those who actually turn up to work, right? Don't be shutting down the phone at the request because they're only trying to help their only trying to help a patient at the end of the day. So and it's really important. We are nice and it's really important that we do the right by each other because this is, this is the competition out here. Okay. New Zealand is doing everything they can to try and attract us. Australia is doing everything they can to try and attract us. And like I couldn't, I couldn't believe when I saw this. I was thinking, do you think they would take me as an E D doctor? 10 shifts a month? Sounds good. Um And I shall finish with this slide. So kindnesses free. So please Sprinkle that stuff everywhere. Thank you. That was brilliant. Really thought provoking. Does anyone have any questions or thoughts or comments that they'd like to make stupefied? Uh Well, I've got one, I'm sorry, it's not just a chat amongst the speakers. Um Just, just a sort of comment really about the complexity of these things and how we can do everything I'm coming. I'm using the women as an example. Women ask a few questions in meetings. Uh uh They're very much less likely to speak up in conferences or uh in terms of CASS chemical excellent towards their English thing. But there are, there are those in poor nations. Um Women don't get as many, but one of the main reasons is because women don't apply. Um So whoever you are, the first step is to is to speak up, try and speak up, you may have a little voice in your head saying, yeah, that sounds like a stupid question but you know, be brave, speak up, put yourself forward, apply. What's the worst that can happen? Thank you. Coffee. I just got a question. I wanted to know what your personal experience of mentorship because you work a lot with medical students and junior doctors and junior radiologist. Uh Personally, how have you found your experience of mentorship to shape those individual students just to see if we can encourage people to consider taking up mentorship as well? Great. No, that's really an important question. Um I, I was very lucky in that. I absolutely had a lot of mentorship and sponsorship throughout my career and I've got into lots of scrapes as you can imagine. Um So gabi, um and I got into lots of scrapes and real serious trouble actually. And if it wasn't for my mentors and my sponsors, I'm not sure where I would be today and I've tried to give back and I think that's the way I sort of see it as, as maybe an older, old person, almost 51 almost retire a wage um to, to kind of give back in whatever time that I have. Um because that's kind of what we need to do, we need to give back. And I get great pleasure, you know, for me, I, I really don't believe in reinventing the wheel and if I can stop one person or help one person who may have been in the difficult position that I was in before and help them avoid it in the first place or if they were in it to help them get out of it, you know, just by using whatever resource I have at my disposal. You know, I, I think, you know, that's, and, and I, I mean, I don't know, I mean, I actively a mentor so I, I powered the kind of bizarre mentoring scheme and all various things. But I'm also like to think I'm an informal mentor. Um you know, and, and really I make myself available to people and, and hopefully that they find me approachable and not able to come and tap me and, and, and, and just speak. So I would encourage everybody to be mentor. We don't have to be anybody extra special, really a mentor, somebody who is caring and is willing to give you the time to listen to you and, and help you through whatever it is that you need, you feel you need help with. So I would strongly recommend everybody do it if you can have time. Thank you so much for nothing for. Oh, yes. Thank you very much for encouraging because I exactly have that have that uh small voice opening time. I had it and it's, it's a stupid question. But now I'm the woman I want to speak up. I wanted to understand and ask for the best with most people. You step according to you to close the pay gap that you talked about if you're willing. And man, that is, which is 30% which takes exactly. Really? I think that's absolutely so important because it's not my husband says you Chinese person, all you talk about is money. Uh So, so generalization, right? But he's my husband and there's obviously he thinks it's all quiet. Poor man doesn't know is all going on television anyway. So, but really, and I was saying this last night, money is a surrogate of the respect and the value that you put on people. So it's a complex question. No doubt about that. I think the very first thing is to actually shine a light on it. We actually need to know that there is a problem. So now we need to know there's a problem. We can then try and find out why there's a problem and try and fix the problem. And we know that there are objective marking scales. You have to have leadership position, you need to be on a national presidente of some national college. You need to blah, blah, blah. Exactly. You know, teach medical students, you publish some papers. Yeah. So there are supposed to be, you know, objective criteria. But uh those, you know, we talked about that, that slide are the coins really the same. You know, it's a pound really getting as much as the dollar, as much as, as a euro. Yeah. So, so there is that there has to be greater transparency of how that happens. And part of it is the metric of how you're marked. I think a really important thing is who is marking you. So the selection process needs to be, or the panel that select these people and mark them needs to be, needs to be obvious. And I don't know, there's some journals I've always submitted to journals and I always thought that it was a peer review anonymous program situation. Um But I found out actually some journals are not, they can see your name, they can see where you're from and all that, whether you like it or not is going to bias, you know, how you read the paper and the same thing will be true for these kind of committees. Unfortunately, radiology is such a small field and when we put on CV and fill our forms are, and we put a poster or align saying I spoke at the S R T, they'll know this is a radiologist and then there'll be some other bit of clue in the C V. They'll say, oh my God, this is Cindy. So, oh God, if they like Cindy, great, let's give her all the points. They don't like Cindy. Obviously, I'm in trouble and they'll be all like that's crap. Who cares what the S R T zero points? So, you know, I think, I think there is that element and, and one way around it, people think potentially is to have a diverse panel who actually determining how these extras are being given. Um Can I just come in with? Because the other thing is you need absolutely, totally agree. You need to advocate for yourself, as I say, with the C A s of the cattle excellence or one women don't apply to. And the same is true, that sort of extras for, you know, extra pas and things like that women don't tend to apply and that's, that's nobody's fault. It's a cultural thing, you know, that you are always taught to uh please basically, and that does not involve asking for more pain. Um And the next thing is that when you apply for these forms and things like that, I mean, this is just an example, it's driven, you apply for these forms, you have to say why you deserve it. Again, that is culturally very difficult for a lot of people actually, you know, it's, and it's me, me marvelous me. And most of us find that quite distasteful to be honest. And, and so, but you start with yourself, stop yourself applying back yourself. And, and that's why I kind of run back to this is all about your generation. Some, you know, cat is absolutely right. A big barriers. Apparently according to numbers, we don't apply, we don't apply for these extra bits, but maybe there's a reason it's not just the culture, which of course there is, but there is also like why? And my department is made up of 70% women, right? And none of them have ever applied for the C A S, none of them. And I'm like, you're applying every one of you I was applying to. So I was actually increasing competition myself, but that's not the point. I was saying you're all gonna apply, you're all gonna apply. They said I said big as why should I apply? So you should apply because of what CASS said, you can't get points if you don't apply. And if you don't get points, you can then ask for feedback. What do I need to do next year to get these points? But the important thing about it is the first thing they said to me, no, the second thing they said to me is why bother applying Cindy, I'm not going to get it. So they go, there's no point in me applying and, and that's points. But it's also why bother going for that job. Why bother going for this job? Because I'm not going to get it because that's what the stats are. So showing us. Yeah, they're, they're less likely depict and that's why we need to do the work and culture, right? It's culture change. The top bit needs to know what's happening. Be mindful of a bias is make sure they're transparent processes in place so that everybody gets equal chance the point, the same coins, the same difficulty, the same all the rest of it. But you guys need to step up and you guys need to want it and you guys need to actually demand it and then maybe, then we have a chance to shift the needle a little bit and not flatline this. That's the most current one comment. So my name is use, I'm a consultant radiologist from Nottingham. Uh and I was passed presidente of the S R T 2017 to 2019. I just wanted to make a comment on the mentorship which touched on your amazing presentations. And thank you. I sit here today like feeling like a proud mom watching Lara Excel in her role as presidente of the S R T. And I just want to encourage as many trainees to get involved with the society with mentor ship because just helping one person makes you feel so amazing. And I, I'm really proud of everything that she's achieved so well done. Hi. Uh I have a question about microaggressions and I've seen that the G M C is with the onus on us to deal with any explanation that we encounter. And I'm wondering if you have any tips or any advice of how we should deal with microaggressions in the workplace. Most common even they come from senior professionals and who, you know, if you, if you then um kind of confront them, it may ruin the working relationship you have or any, you know, dreams or aspirations of progressing or doing anything more than what you are, you know, trying to get away. Um, and also sometimes in my experience, a lot of microaggressions actually come from minority ethnic groups themselves. So, uh, that's, that's another whole talk. But so, isn't it? Yeah. So that's a really big talk. No. Absolutely. So, I think that's a really big talk and I think in many ways, you know, it's little bit disingenuous. Um, you know, it's a typical management thing that they do, isn't it? They, they say, oh, there's a problem and they shove it on to you to solve. Um And I think that you're absolutely right. And I stand here and part of the brigade saying is up to you. Um But really it's up to the leadership and the organization to make sure that there is psychologic safe. I mentioned that safety super important that you are protected that you, that you calling something out, you know, doesn't ruin you through victimization, but the system then points back to you. So I think it's uh really important and ba host the organization I your training scheme, your T P D, your management in your hospital and the college to get frameworks to protect you. Um And also I think we all think of calling it out as like a mega thing, you know, like, you know, we think of it that way, right? I have to stand up for our rights and like you are a racist or you're not racist but, you know, how dare you take it back, you know, or you're a sexist, how dare you, whatever. So, sorry, don't pick up. Uh, you know, and we think it's like super confrontational. Um, and actually there, uh, it doesn't have to be that kind of a calling out, you know, you can still stand up and, and, and make that point subtly but pointed and there's a whole course and I, and I'm hoping to get my stuff published in the future. But yeah, there's a whole thing on it and uh and yes, you, but you're absolutely right. Please do not get yourself into trouble because it potentially could. Um it would be disingenuous of me, not to, not to actually say that but find a friend, find an ally, you know, there's strength in numbers um uh and come and find somebody. There are lots of people, good people in this room who'd be willing to help. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. I felt those questions have to be asked. Uh Do you, do you mind if we hang on, hang fire? And I'll see if Dr Chicken answer those questions later. But thank you so much. I just want to make sure everyone gets their break before they go off to workshops, which are starting now. But go get yourself a tea and coffee and water and, and then their head off if you've signed up for that workshop. I just want to thank Dr Halligan doctor to for a fantastic morning session. I think that's given a lot of food for thought. Thank you for making me cry already. I have to wait a day to. I do want to emphasize that the SRT has taken. Uh We've spent a lot of time focusing on it, quality, diversity and inclusion. We're about to have our fourth woman of color be the presidente of the S R T. We constantly make sure our program is diverse and represents all of you. And if it doesn't, we want to hear from you, we want to change it. And when we want you to consider being part of us, either as a member, a rep or uh someone on the committee. So I'd like to thank you, saw so much. I hope you will continue to be a part of the S R T. Please ask questions. I'm so happy to see you all here. Enjoy your break and we'll see you at the workshops or at the next session at 10 50. Okay. Yeah.