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CST Interview Series: Session 2 - the Management Station



In this on-demand teaching session, surgical career lead Raya and Mr Andrew Ting, Act One currently working in London, provide vital tips for the CT (Core Surgical Training) interview. Mr Ting specifically focuses on the Management Station, an area in which he scored 100% in his interview. The session covers details on the format and scoring process of the interview, with an emphasis on how to structure and deliver an impactful oral presentation. This session is a must-attend for those preparing for the CST interview as it significantly contributes to the overall application score.
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Welcome to our second webinar in the Core Surgical Training series. This webinar will focus on the Management Station. It is being hosted by Andrew Ting, an orthopaedic-themed CT1 in London.

Learning objectives

1. The participants will understand the structure and requirements of the CT interview, particularly the management station. 2. The participants will gain insights into the scoring system of the CT interview, in order to understand how to excel in it. 3. The participants will learn how to prepare for the preprepared presentation segment of the CT interview and the importance of teaching these skills to core trainees. 4. The participants will understand how to handle management scenarios and follow-up questions in the interview. 5. The participants will grasp the significance of varied leadership experiences and incorporating feedback in their presentations for the CT interview.
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Computer generated transcript

The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

OK, so I think we're live now. Hopefully everyone can see and hear us. My name is Raya. I'm the surgical career lead for mind the bleep and I'm here with my colleague and friend Mr Andrew Ting who is very kindly going to present his tips for the CT interview, the specifically the management station. So Mr Andrew is Act One currently working in London. He's orthopedic themed uh obviously did very well in this interview last year to get this position. Um and he scored 100% on the management section. So no one better to share his wisdom uh during this event. So Andrew, I'll leave it up to you to take a pro. Thank you very much. Very, too kind to say that. But um so hi, everyone. My name is Andrew. I hope you can all hear me. Well, I'll be talking to you about the uh CST interview specifically about the management station, but I'll also cover some uh some general CST interview bits and Bobs and general interview tips. Um So like Freya said, I'm currently Act one in London doing TN O. I did my CST interview about 12 months ago uh whilst I was uh in a busy A&E rotation during my F two year. Um And I'd like to think I'm a little bit uh somewhat qualified to talk about this station um as I got full mi in it and hopefully I can share some of my tips and tricks on on how you can do that as well. So, just a brief overview, uh I'm sure most of this will not be surprising to you guys, but the CST interview for 2024 the way that it's gonna run is similar to previous years, they're going to um rank everyone based firstly on their M sra scores, take the top 1200 of you and um and invite you guys to interview. The interview will be online this year again. Um But what's new this year is that they're going to be doing it on the cer com video platform. And this is in contrast to what they've been using in the past few years, which was uh Microsoft teams. Um The interview window is uh coming up soon. So from 19 to 28th of February. So later on in this month and like previous years, it's going to be 20 minutes total, you'll spend 10 minutes first of all in the management station and then 10 minutes doing uh the clinical station. And um it will between the two different stations, it'll be the exact same panel. Um So the same two or three people um in your interview as interviewers and there will be no breaks in between. So it's, it uh flows quite quickly and quite smoothly uh this next bit. Um The interview I think is it's very important to emphasize the importance of the interview because it uh it comprises 60% of your overall uh CST application scores. So the CSD overall CST application score is what actually determines where you get ranked in the end and whether or not you get a job and uh uh what job you actually get. Um So given that it's worth majority of the, the marks and given that it's the only thing that you can change at this point. It's very important to take it very seriously and you know, try your best to do well in it. The other 30 the other 40% of the uh application score comes from your self assessment and M SRA which you can't really change at this point. And let's, I'm just going to talk a bit about how the CST interview is scored. So for the CST interview, like I said previously, it's split into two different stations, the management and the clinical station and each of them are weighted equally and you get uh you get uh mark from for each domain scored by each of your interviewers during, during each um each station. So there are six domains across the two different um the two different stations. So the management station has uh you get marked on the content of your presentation, your presentation skills. There are follow up questions from your presentation, probity, professional, integrity and awareness of safety and ethics, your judgment under pressure and prioritization and your communication. And for the clinical station, um you'll uh there'll be six domains to get marked um for which is the clinical skills and knowledge, judgment on pressure, prioritization and communication. And that gets repeated given that you have two clinical scenarios in the station. So, uh like I said, there's a, for each domain, there's a score by each interviewer between zero and six with six being the best score. And that comes up for a total of 100 and 44 marks in total across the two stations and coming just moving on to the, the main focus on my talk today, which is the management station. So this is 10 minutes and it will be the first station that you get in your interview. So this is what it starts out with. Uh the f it's split into 25 minute halves really. And the first five minute half will be all centered around your uh preprepared presentation. And so you'll spend three minutes delivering an oral presentation uh to your, to your interviewers and then you'll have two minutes of follow up questions on that right after. And then for the next five minutes in this station, you'll get a uh management scenario question and some follow up questions to that. Um And so the first, the first three minutes, uh what I, what I allude to was the preprepared presentation and this is a purely oral presentation. You don't get uh you, you're not able to use any powerpoint slides or any visual aids um during it. So it's just you speaking into the camera for three minutes straight. Um And so you're, I don't think you're allowed to use any, any prompts as well. So you'll have to really commit that to memory. And the title of this presentation is usually sent alongside the invite to interview, uh which I believe will be in the next uh week or so for you guys. Um But it usually relates to sort of leadership and management experience and in the last, the last uh few years, they've always used a very similar prompt, er, similar title for the presentation. So it's worth um sort of starting to prepare for it now or at least thinking about what you're going to do for it. I've paraphrased. Uh I paraphrased the uh the title uh that we got from last year. Um And it was what leadership experience do you have and how will you apply this during co training? So, if I were in your shoes, I'd start preparing based on the assumption that it would be something similar to this. Um I think there was just one year, maybe a few years ago where it was something different. You know, it was about um how will you maximize your, your uh training progress during COVID or something like that? Um But every other year it's been about leadership and just a reminder that the domains specifically about this part will be uh are your content of your oral presentation, your presentation skills and their follow up questions to your presentation. And so just um thinking about how to structure and what kind of things you want to include in your, in your presentation. Um I thought it would be a good idea to really go back to the CST person specifications and to really see what kind of things they're looking for in their, in their candidates. So I've took, I've taken some screenshots and put them on the right side which I think were relevant and I'll just read out the relevant bit. So they, they want evidence of effective multidisciplinary team working and leadership supported by multisource feedback. They like evidence of effective leadership in and outside of medicine. They want you to be able to work in a multiprofessional team and supervise junior medical staff and they want you to uh have the ability to show leadership, make decisions, organize and motivate other team members. So reading through that, my, my main takeaways from, from that, um which sort of helped guide what I, what I made my presentation about was that one? They need it. Uh you need to include a range of leadership er examples and scenarios. So, ideally, not just in medicine, number two, that you really need to have good feedback from your team and try to incorporate that into your, into your, your presentation. And lastly, um you want to try and simulate, you know, try and convey that you're able to be a leader of a varied group which sort of simulates um being a leader of the MDT. So what I, what I um went with and this is what I suggest to, to anyone who's doing the uh doing the CST interview is that you follow this format. Um You know, you may feel differently, other people may structure their slight, something slightly different. But I think this one worked quite well for me, you want to start with sort of an introduction uh or a preamble about leadership. Uh So talking about what it means to you and why you think it's important and lasting about 15 to 30 seconds. And then you want to jump straight in into two scenarios that you've uh that you've thought of um related to you and your leadership experience. So this should last about 60 to 75 seconds each. Uh And you want to have an important skill and lesson related to your experience and a good, a good way of structuring. This is um like we did in G CSE English and English literature is to use peel. So point evidence, explain link. Um Some people. Um So I chose two scenarios because I think it's a good, middle, middle ground. Um You don't want to do the extreme. So the ex one end of the extreme would be only talking about one scenario and just focusing purely on that. I think that's not a great idea because like we saw previously in the person's specs, it's um it quite like having a varied experience both inside and outside of medicine and equally, you don't want to go and give 567 different scenarios and examples because then you're just, you know, listing bullet points, you're not really elaborating on er, each different um experience. And so you can't really flesh out a good answer from it. So I would say uh go for two scenarios if you must, if you've got, if you've got three excellent scenarios that you can't choose between, you know, you can, you can go for three scenarios, but no more than that. And after each of, of these scenarios, you want to reflect back and link to why you think uh the skills that you've mentioned or the lessons that you've mentioned are important and how you apply those skills as a core training. And then after your, your two or three scenarios, you want to give a closing statement and really sort of bring it all together and into one take home message for your examiner or interviewer. So some of the tips that I have for this uh first half um of the management station is that, uh, well, the first, the first tip is really quite general, but the management station is very important to prepare for. It's, uh I would think I would suspect it's more of a differentiator than the clinical scenario if you're ranking CSC applicants. Because with the clinical scenario, everyone, you know, the clinical bit is the same, Um everyone does uh has sort of clinical scenarios in your day to day job. Everyone's gonna be preparing for the same emergencies. Everyone can rattle through an A&E A to e everyone can, everyone knows crisp and ATL S but the, the management station has so much more potential um for someone to, you know, to not know what they're talking about and not have a, a good structure. Um And so I think everyone's going to score very similar marks in the clinical station. But with the management station, I suspect there's a bigger er range of, of scores. And so it's very important to try and nail it and put uh and give as much um uh attention to the management station if not more compared to the clinical station. Um when thinking about your, your presentation, you want to try and use the opportunity um to talk about your portfolio and really sell yourself because um this part is very important because this is the, if I if it's anything like in previous years, the management station will come first in the interview and the presentation will be the first thing that you do in the in the management station. And so if you have, you know, very good examples, you speak very coherently, very clearly, very articulate and you have fantastic uh leadership examples. Your interviewer might, you, you know, you're gonna give a very good first impression to your interviewer and they, they are gonna dec, you know, probably going to decide in their minds very early on whether or not they're going to you, they think you're a good candidate or not. And so you really want to use some really good examples, some hard hitting examples um for your, for your presentation. Next step is to make whatever examples that you have in your presentation ve very personable. Um because you will, you know, the interview, one of the domains that they score you on is um your ma your presentation skills. And one way to really um do well in presenting something is, you know, to really um have some conviction and really believe what you're saying. And the only way um that can happen is if you, if it's, you know, personable to you and, you know, you've actually lived through the experience and you really mean it. Um my next tip is to um just thinking about what kind of content you want to put into your, your uh scenarios, you want to try and find something that where you were a good leader, of course, and you want to show that you uh you solved the problem and you want to, like I said, incorporate feedback that you got from your colleagues because that's what they like in the person's specs. Next tip is to make sure that you practice uh your presentation um a lot, making sure that you're able to commit it fully to memory because like I said, you won't, you're not allowed any prompts or any visual aids. So you, you know, you've got to really commit it to memory, you need to be able to rattle off, rattle it off. Um while looking at a camera, you know, you never know what's gonna happen on the interview itself. Um It could very well be that the, the interviewer gets the internet gets cut off for a few seconds. They ask you to, you know, repeat what you just said. And if you aren't very confident and you don't really know your, your presentation inside and out, it's very easy to um get lost and sort of forget where you are and that can really ruin the rest of your, your presentation and the rest of your interview really. And again, this is very important uh to practice because you want to be fluent and coherent and articulate because the presentation skills um are just as highly weighted as the actual content which you're speaking about. Um Next step is to make sure that you time your presentation, making sure that you uh stick to three minutes and you ideally want to, you would rather have your, your presentation slightly too, slightly, too short, rather than a bit too long because um, they probably will stick to time quite strictly in your interview. And so, uh you want to be able to make sure that you finish with your entire presentation. And my last tip is to make sure that you get some feedback on your presentation from some of your trusted colleagues. So this can be your registrars that you work with other people that you've um that have done the interviews recently or uh some people that you are uh some other fellow uh sh OS that you're, that you are preparing uh with for the interview. So now I want to just uh go through my uh bits of my presentation that I gave last year and really dissect down what I thought was important to include. And so you guys have a, have an idea of uh my frame of mind and what I wanted to convey to the my interviewers. Um So this is slightly edited from what I actually gave. Um but the main points are, are still there. So the preamble that I, that I had and I gave was throughout my career, I've acquired and developed good leadership skills through the roles I've been elected to. I want to talk about two roles in particular, which have helped shape my view on what it means to be a good leader. So I've just highlighted the uh the, the important bits that I thought that uh would be worth talking about. So, um the first, the first sentence me saying that I've acquiring and developed good leadership skills um via the rules that I've been elected to, what I wanted to do here was show that um these leadership skills um that I have, it's not by, you know, I haven't just fallen into them. I've actually actively and proactively sort out leadership roles. And so that, you know, in my mind, I'm, I'm, I'm already, I already know that being a, being a leader, being a good leader and developing these skills is quite important. And it shows that I uh yeah, I've, II keep this in mind even since um whenever uh you know, medical school and, and beyond. Um and then the next sentence I, this is me setting the stage, I just, I just uh lay out that I'm gonna talk about two roles in particular and just um going to uh talk about the lessons that I've learned from it so that the interviewers are sort of primed in their mind to listen to the two big roles. And then after my preamble, I went straight into my first example, leadership example. So what I, what I wrote down was as vice captain of my university football club. The first important lesson I learned was that leaders should be open to feedback from their team. One of my main roles was organizing training sessions. And throughout the year, I kept an open dialogue between myself and the other team members, actively seeking out and being receptive to all feedback and critiques. I was described by my peers as approachable, supportive and dedicated. This is exemplified when I organized extra weekly cardio training sessions in response to critical feedback from my team. This led to a tremendously positive result in which we finished second in the league, which is the best in our club's history. So again, highlighting the main bit I want to talk about um and apologies that um if you notice that basically the whole thing has been highlighted yellow, uh it really goes to show that everything that I've every word, every sentence that you put into these presentations, you really need, needed to have a, a purpose and it needs every sentence need to have some meaning that you want to convey to your interviewers because three minutes is very short, it's a very short amount of time and you really need to be very um efficient with your, with your speech. And again, thinking about what I said earlier, you can think of, you can think of this uh with, you know, through the lens of using the peel um the peel strategy. So the point, the first point that I'm making is that I was the vice captain of my university football club just um setting the stage, putting it out there. Um what my leadership role was and you want to show that and you want to, you know, put your, your first point, um put your first point through that and, and the lesson that you learned was that leaders should be open to feedback from your team and then you need to spend the next minute or so next 45 seconds, uh really uh showing some evidence for that and going into more detail um with how you, how you learnt that lesson. So, um obviously, in my example itself, I've um put a uh you know, put good qualities, good examples of me doing what II said I was uh what lesson I've learned. Uh So keeping an open dialogue between the other team members, you know, this is kind of like thinking about the uh this is similar to being in um you know, getting feedback from a multi multidisciplinary team, actively seeking out being receptive to all feedback and critiques. So, um I'm just showing that I indeed am open to feedback from my team. And then next bit was uh me saying and telling my, my interviewers that I was described by my peers as approachable, supportive and dedicated. So just incorporating a bit of feedback that I got from my, from my peers and from my team, which is what they like to see based on their uh their person's specs. And then the next sentence is me um acting on this feedback. So really giving, giving them a reason as to why I think, you know, listening to the feedback is important, giving evidence that I am listening to this feedback. Um And then the last sentence is me showing the the results of, of uh of, of listening to that feedback, which is sort of emphasizing the point as to why um you know, I thought that feedback, listening to feedback is very important. So um having a good uh having a, you know, very fruitful, um fruitful result from me listening to feedback. So finishing second in the league best in our clubs history. And then after your example, like I said, you need to try and reflect on this and link it back to um to the question or to CST in general. So what I wrote was in CST being receptive to feedback is imperative to develop as a well rounded surgeon, invaluable feedback can come from all members of the MDT. And this is especially important as a core outcome of CST is the safe and competent perioperative management of surgical patients. Again, highlighting the important bit. Um This is me um linking it back to why um you know, this leadership qualities that I'm talking about why it's important and just showing that I am aware that, you know, as a, as a surgeon you need to be able to, you know, listen to and get feedback from everyone in your MDT, everyone has something to contribute. Um especially um in the last sentence, I mentioned that a core outcome of CST is a safe and competent perioperative management because it's not just the surgeons taking care of the, the surgical patients, but you know, the nurses, the physios, um the dieticians, et cetera, et cetera. Um And also by saying what I said in the last sentence, it shows that I am aware of, you know, one of the outcomes of course surgical training. And I know that it's not just a stepping stone to higher surgical training, but really it's there um to build a strong foundation in taking care of your surgical patients, which the interviewer uh would like to hear. And then after my first example, II went on to, to my second example, which was in a different uh different setting. But um I'm just going to skip over to my closing statement this um in the interest of time. So what I wrote for the closing statement was I will assimilate the leadership skills. I observe from surgeons and colleagues that I respect and develop my own leadership style with the best of all the behaviors that I've observed. I will endeavor to continue developing these lifelong leadership skills which will serve me well for when I become a consultant surgeon. So in this, I, I'm highlighting the fact that um, yes, the leadership skills that I've talked about is indeed very important and it's an active process in learning to, you know, become a leader. It's not something that you are born with. It's not something that you can, you can acquire in one day. But it's, uh, it's a very much an iterative process throughout your time as a, as a surgeon. And so it's important to, you know, to show that you are actively thinking about it. So the way I conveyed that was, you know, I'm going to develop my own leadership styles, er leadership style with um er based on what I see around me and er this shows that I'm not just going to blindly copy someone else's leadership style, but really think about what kind of surgeon, what kind of leader I want to be and very important to show that again that these are lifelong skills. And this last part where you says um it will serve me well from when I become a consultant surgeon. I think it's a nice thing to uh to remember that um some people view the core surgical training, uh interviews as you know, interviewing for a, for a core training job. But really another way to think about it is that you are interviewing for a future consultant surgeon's job. Um So it's good to have to be in that, you know, that mindset that, you know, I'm going to be on this going to enter this training pathway where the end result is me as a consultant surgeon in about 8 to 10 years. And you saying that will um help the ex help your interviewer also realize that yeah, this, this chap this uh this person that you're that I'm interviewing uh can have the potential to be a consultant surgeon down the line. So after that, you'll be after your three minutes is up. Um They, I don't know if they cut you off if three minutes go on or bec um, or if they let you finish, but they'll probably cut you off because timing is very tight. Um They will then move on to two minutes of questions. Um The official line that they give is that the two minutes of questions will be related to your, to the presentation that you just gave. But in my experience when I did my interview last year, they, the questions that they gave, uh that they asked me were, you know, completely, we were completely irrelevant. They weren't, there weren't anything about, uh weren't anything to do with what I, what I spoke about, but there were just generics of leadership questions. Um And so I'm not sure it's, if it's because, um I sort of answered the questions that they were planning to ask during my presentation or if, um that's just the way it is. I haven't spoken to any of my, anyone else who interviewed about this uh but I think it's uh it's safest to be able to uh prepare for both possibilities. So you definitely need to uh know your speech inside and out, really know everything there is to know about uh what you, what you've spoken about. And you also need to know your CD inside and out just like any other interview. Um But you also need to be able to, you need to be prepared to answer generic leadership questions and uh some examples uh of these questions I've listed out here. Um And these are really, you know, if any of these come up and you're not prepared that it's, um you've only got yourself to blame because these are very, very common questions that everyone should, should know before the interview. So first one is what is the difference between a leader and a manager? Um I would definitely prepare an answer to this um because uh this is quite a, an easy one to catch people out on if they don't actually know the definitions of leader and manager. And it's important when you're making up your answer, when you're preparing an answer to really link it back to the NHS and to link it to how, you know, it's relevant to surgery. Next point is next question to prepare for is what qualities make a good leader. Uh This is a very loaded question. Um And there are, you know, there, there are one or two year master's degrees based on leadership. And so it's very difficult to uh come up with an answer on the spot and black out a good answer, good and a good and coherent answer. So it's very important that you prepare for this. So, um try and distill it down to the main, you know, two or three qualities that you think uh makes a good leader. And why the next question is why is leadership important in surgery? Um Again, this is a, this would be a quite obvious question for them to ask. Um And I got asked, uh I think something quite similar to this last year. So you definitely need to be able to um have a good answer for that. Uh Next is how will you develop your leadership skills in core training and in, you know, over your career. So this is just a continuation of, of your pre your leadership presentation. So you've already built the foundations of your leadership skills and they want to know how will you, will you continue uh developing that given that um leadership skills is a uh is a lifelong process to develop. And the last point, um you should definitely always have one or two examples of good leadership that you've seen in your colleagues uh in your seniors. Um And you definitely need to be able to describe the scenario and also um why that was a good example of leadership and also what you've taken away from it. And equally, you should have one or two examples of bad leadership um scenarios, either of your colleagues or your seniors, uh try not to paint them in too bad a light because um it's not nice to talk about colleagues in such a bad way. But um you need to have some examples of bad leadership. But more importantly, you need to be able to really uh reflect on why uh that was bad, why it didn't work and how you've incorporated those lessons that you've learned to your leadership style. And then after the first five minutes is up, it will move you on to the management scenario. So this next bit um is you'll have five minutes for uh for one scenario, they will start you off with a, with a prompt. Um And they will have very limited information to begin with. Um And they'll expect you to answer, answer the questions based on that. Um And they may give some more information later on as the scenario evolves and invariably, it'll be about an ethical dilemma at the workplace and just as a reminder as to what they are looking for and what they're scoring you on. So the first domain is about pro professional, integrity and awareness of safety and ethics. The next is judgment under pressure and prioritization. And the last is communication. So you need to bear these in mind um when you're, when you're prep, when you're prepping with your, with your colleagues and when you're actually answering these in the interview, so the tips that I have from this is um firstly, it's always a good idea to read GM C's good medical practice if you haven't already. Uh some, I think lots of people do read it for the S GT and I think it's always, it's worth um refreshing your memory. I think they may have, the GMC may have released some new good medical practice guidance or something recently. So it's worth getting an update on that. And it's always useful to align your, er, recalibrate your moral compass before these ethical interviews. Um I found that with this, with this uh part of the station, it's in a way slightly, it's different from the S GT, that's for sure. Given that the S JT, you have to pick, you know, they give you five prescribed answers which may be five wrong answers and you, they ask you to pick the best one and you aren't able to have there's no nuance to it and you have to take it at face value. Whereas for this station, you know, it's open ended, you can say you can take it, you know, whichever direction you want, you can structure your answer, whichever way you want and you can. And the reason why you can say whatever you want is because there really is no real wrong answer. And again, there's no real right answer. As long as you can justify whatever you say. And so in a way it's quite fluid and there's no set mark scheme but there will be some, uh some common indicators that they're looking for of a successful candidate. Um, but as long as you can justify what you say and give, you know, give a coherent reason, you know, you should be fine. The way I prep for this part was, um, was reading Picard's medical interview book. It's a very, it's a classic book. I think every specialty er uses this for the core training level. Um The main takeaway I had from this book was the way to structure your ethical, the ethical um questions. So a very good structure to follow is using the spy's acronym. Um I think within me spices, you know, it's, it's actually top tier um acronym. It's, it's up there with Socrates. Er Spice is the gold standard um structure you should use for ethical scenarios. Um And so I'll be talking a bit more about the spyer acronym in a, in a second and 11 of the most important tips I have is within this station. If they, you know, if they ask you to make a decision, if they ask you to give an answer, um you always need to acknowledge that you have very limited information and, and that you are basing your answer based on that. So you need to say that, you know, in real life, I would have more information but based on what I see what I have and what I've seen, I will do this, this and that and if they, if they force a yes, yes or no answer from you, you know, you want to try and in a way, sit on the fence for a bit. So you need to weigh out both sides of the argument because there's never gonna be a clear cut. Yes or no um answer to any of their questions. So you definitely need to try and weigh out. Um And you know, wait up out loud. So you need to say uh on one hand, uh the reason why I would want to do that, do that action is this statin whatever, but equally the, the reasons why I wouldn't want to do uh that action is this statin whatever. But then, you know, if they are asking for a yes or no answer, you should eventually get to a, get to an answer. So just um speaking a bit about the spy's um acronym. So what spy stand for is to seek information, patient safety initiative, escalate and support. So the way to use spies is to, you know, whenever they give you an ethical scenario, especially if it's open ended, you want to um take a few seconds to think, you know, once they've given you the stem, um take about 5 to 10 seconds, say give me one second I'm just going to formulate my um gather my thoughts on this. So use that time to really um have this have the spice acronym in your head and really populate with one or two points minimum of each of the different um parts of spies. So seek information what this means is. And you always start with this because invariably these scenarios are gonna be complete, you know, no information at all, very superficial and you know, you have to go based on that. So you need to acknowledge that you have very limited information at this point and you want to endeavor to gather more information before um moving forward. Because what this shows is that er you are not hasty, you are not, um you don't jump to conclusions but you are taking a very nuanced look, which is what you do in real life, but you need to convey that during your interview. Um you can seek information, you want to, you want to give a few different uh points uh and keep it, you know, uh strictly to the salient points and things that will affect your uh the way that you deal with the rest of the, the scenario acutely. And you can seek information from, you know, if it's involving a colleague, you can speak to a colleague directly, you can speak to the other members of staff, you can speak to the patient. Um and you know, there's so many different ways that you can, you can go about this, the P stands for patient safety. And you know, with all things in medicine, like in the clinical scenario, you need to really acknowledge and state it. You know, I state that patient safety is your number one priority. So you, I would say it in those words, exactly that patient safety is my number one priority. Um And really show that this is the, this is the, this is always on the forefront of your mind. Uh You need to ask yourself, is there a current or imminent risk to patient safety? And this is not just um this is not just, you know, the patient that you have right in front of you, but also the patients uh you know, patients around you. Um and if you have identified a current or imminent risk to patient safety, um you want to try, you want to show that you will take whatever steps you can that is reasonable uh to mitigate this and bearing in mind that you are the sho you are the core trainee, but you still need to um address the immediate patient safety concerns. The I and spies stands for initiative. So what this means is that uh once you've dealt with the very pressing matters of patient safety, you want to try and see if is there anything I can do at this point in time to you know, to help with this um help with this uh this problem and this, you know, this will overlap with the patient safety bit. This will overlap with the escalation bit next. But you need to think about, is there anything I can do as a junior member of the team uh which will help my my colleagues, which will help the patient um which will help my consultant. So obviously, if it's a very acute scenario, there might not be, you know, much to say about uh in initiative. But if it's something less acute, like a like an underperforming colleague or a conflict within your team, there will be a few things that you can say next uh the E stands for escalate. And so once you've gone through the patient safety initiative, once you've got enough information to, to, you know, move on with, you want to uh escalate it up the the chain of command. So as a junior member of the team, as a core trainee, as an sho you will, you are almost never wrong in wanting to escalate uh a problem. So um they are the core surgical trainee training. Uh recruitment team are looking for safe doctors, safe surgeons and you escalating er will almost never be inappropriate and it, it's always better to escalate a bit too early than too late or not at all. Um And you need to think about the appropriate escalation strategies. So the whole principle within escalation is that you want to involve as few people as possible while effectively dealing with the scenario with the, with the situation at hand. Um And so what this means is that there will be, you know, a step wise approach usually. And so, um some of the options that you have uh as a as an sho will be your team's registrar. 1st, 1st of all, uh you can, uh if that's not appropriate, you can think about escalating to your consultant. Um There's also a possibility of escalating to another team's uh registrar or another team's consultant. You can also think about escalating, you know, to your, your es your educational supervisor or your clinical supervisor. And you could also think about escalating to your, to your colleagues education or clinical supervisor as well if that's appropriate and there will always be someone else to escalate you. So if there's a problem regarding your consultant, you can escalate to a different consultant, you can escalate to the clinical lead in the department and it really goes all the way up to, you know, the, the hospital's chief Medical Officer Hospitals, CEO, but rarely, rarely will these uh will that be, you know, appropriate, but those are some options to, to bear in mind. Um Sometimes it's also worth thinking about whether you should, whether you need to or it might be a good idea to get some third party um advice. So there are some organizations that you can speak to for advice, um things like uh your medical uni your medical union, which is the BMA. Uh you can think about one of the medical defense organizations. So this is like the MDU or the MPS. Um And also you can get anonymous advice from the GMC as well. Um And the last point in spies is the s support. So, uh you want to show that you're, you know, you're a good member of the team, you're a supportive member of the team you need to think about. Does my colleague need any more support? Can I provide that support? Um And it really, it shows that you, you know, you are, this is what you're gonna do in real life anyway, you're not just going to be a robot. Um when you see someone else have a problem and just leave them be but you want to, you know, be a supportive colleague to them and within support you also want to think about does the patient need some support um as well because everything really links back to the patient and patient safety. So this uh this next part, I'm just going to walk you through an example scenario and how you can, how you can apply spies into AAA scenario. So um this is a very common um station. So you are the sho on a surgical ward, a patient reports to you that they suspect your registrar was drunk when they went through the consent process with them. An hour ago, you know, your registrar is due to operate on a patient later today. How would you proceed? So, as you can see, there is, um they've set the scene you on the e sit you on the surgical ward. Um They've also proposed a problem to you, uh that the patient thinks your registrar is drunk and, and then they ask you, you know, how would you, how would you deal with this? How would you go about this? Um And there is hardly any information there in real life. It's not going to be this bare bones. But, um, with the interview process, uh they really wanna see how you think and so they just leave this very open ended. So, um, the way I would tackle this scenario is first of all really digest it. Um So really think about the, the issues at hand here and then try and prepopulate in your, in my mind. Uh What can I say for, for s what can I say for p what can I say for IE and s um I don't have to go through all of it immediately because I can think while I speak. So as long as I have, you know, some key points to talk about with uh seek information and patient safety, I'm probably ok to start speaking, but, you know, it's ok to say to your examiner, I'm just gonna take a few seconds to formulate my thoughts, you know, because that shows a level of maturity and that you actually are thinking about the answer rather than just blagging out the first thing that comes to your mind. So with this um going through it, so seeking information, you always want to acknowledge that you have limited information at the, at this point in time. And then you want to say that um before going forward, you want to get more information. So and then just listing up things that you think would be pertinent to know and the most pressing things. So you want to keep it to the salient points and within reason, you know, things that you can figure out relatively quickly and easily. So you'd want to find out, you know, why does the patient think that the registrar was drunk? Is there, you know, you gotta trust, but verify, is there any merit to what they, what they are saying? Um, then you want to do, you want to know if you've seen your registrar today, cos you know, if you've seen, if you've just seen them five minutes ago and they were completely fine, then that changes the way you deal with this scenario. Uh Next, you want to see if the ward staff or any other colleagues have noticed anything and it's important to try and er, when you're doing this probe this sensitively because you do have a duty of confidentiality in a way to your, to your registrar and you want to keep a good working relationship with them and, you know, you asking questions and in a way, spreading gossip is not going to, it's not going to do you any favors. And fourth point that I think would be very important to know is where exactly is your registrar at the moment? And what are they doing right now? Because, you know, if they, if the claims of any merit to them, then you, you definitely need to this links with the next the next point. Um then you need to try and find them and, and you know, take things further and with all things, you, you know, you always want to speak to the colleague in question directly and gather information from them before taking things further. Unless there's a very good reason not to, you know, this next one is um patient safety. So once you have a bit more information to go off on, you want to, you know, say this uh now patient safety is at the forefront of my mind, it is my priority. I want to make sure that the patient is safe, not just the patient in front of me, uh the one that report this to me, but also, you know, thinking a bit more, more widely, more generally any other patients uh that may be at risk. So if my registrar was indeed drunk, you know, everyone that they've seen today could potentially be at risk given that they've been uh practicing medicine, uh practicing surgery whilst inebriated. Um And so you want to, um, you want to check if they registrar see or will see any other patients today. Uh You want to try and remedy that and you need to think about if your registrar needs to be removed from the clinical area or needs to be relieved from their clinical duties. And all of this is very important to sort of say to your examiner so that they have, they get that you are thinking about all of this, you're thinking very um pragmatically about the the scenario like you would in real life. Um And then moving on to initiative thinking about some things that you can do that are helpful at this point in time. So once you've dealt with the, you know, the acute pressing matter, which is if your registrar is drunk, uh and you think about other things. So, you know, in the stem, it mentioned that the registrar um went through the consent process with the patient. Um if they are drunk, going by the assumption, um then the consent form is probably going to be legally invalid. So you, you want to be a good member, a good team player. Um because this, the operation will have to carry on uh later on today, regardless, you want to make sure that theaters are running smoothly. And so if you are, if you're appropriately trained, you may consider reconsent the patient, if there's nothing, if there is no other pressing matters to deal with, and it shows that you are, again thinking very pragmatically about all of this. Um other things that you may may uh consider doing. Um if your registrar had seen a few patients had reviewed a few patients, uh they may need to be re-reviewed. Um If by you, if you are, if you're um if it's appropriate for your level, um If not, you can always, you can try to get, you know, you can escalate this to your consultant, you can get another registrar to help you out. Um But this, but thinking about this shows that you are, you are thinking ahead and you also want to think about who's going to be covering your registrar's duties if they, if they're unable to continue on working. So you can think you can, you know, say that you're going to look at your workload, uh maybe take on some of your workload, whatever's appropriate or if um or if you can try and draft in any of the other registrars to help out or even get, get in contact with the rota coordinator to see if they can put it out for a last minute locum shift and then moving on to escalation. So, um at this point, it's worth um escalating it to the next person up the, up the hierarchy. So, like I said previously, the principles of this is that you want to involve the minimum number of people to effectively deal with the situation just because the more people you involve, the more moving parts there are, the more confusing it gets. Um, and then sort of the responsibility gets, you know, diffused out. Um, and you also want to the, you also want to, uh, make sure that there's no possibility, no possibility for gossip within, you know, within the team and with escalation, you know, regardless of what happens, whether you think the registrar is drunk or not. The fact is the consult, the, the patient has raised some concerns. And even if you don't think they're valid, it's important that your consultant is aware of this, given that they have overall responsibility for the patient. This next one, you know, you can, you can consider thinking about um whether the registrar's e has to know, um, in the long term, they probably should know if they are, they were indeed drunk on the job, but presumably it's your consult. It's your consultant who will be, you know, taking this further given that they are, the consultant is the registrar senior and you are the registrar's junior. And with the escalation, you definitely want to warn your registrar before you do anything before you move it up the chain, uh just as a professional courtesy to them. And in case they have anything, uh anything that they want to mention to you before that then s stands for support. You want to, you know, sure that you're a team player, you want to think about supporting your registrar and the rest of your team, some of the actions that you've done before will be, you know, will cover, supporting them. Um, you want to think about is this behavior out of character for your registrar? Do they need some help? Um And this is uh something that you can think about moving forward and again, don't forget about the patient, whether they want someone to talk to you as well and then following your, your spies, you will, they will probably ask you, you know, some follow up questions related to the scenarios. Um It'll be much briefer than the original uh question, but, um, it'll be, you know, as a follow on question. So they'll probably ask you, you know, what will we do if you have found that the registrar was indeed drunk or what would you do if the reg wasn't drunk, how would you proceed? That's the whole thing. And you can use the same principles, you know, making sure that patient safety is number one, making sure you're respecting your, your registrars confidentiality. All those same principles still apply when you're, when you're answering these follow up questions. And I've just uh compiled a list of common things to prepare for, for this part of the station. Um So, because they, you know, it's very, it's very easy to see them bringing up any of these uh scenarios. So drunk colleague, 100% struggling colleague conflict within the workplace, lack of training opportunities, rude or drunk patients and duty of candor to your patients. You should all be able to um you know, fit the fit a spy um answer to all of these. Ok. So that is all that I have to say about the management station. It was just a quick uh whistle stop tour and just giving, laying down the general principles and how I tackle them and how I suggest you tackle them. Uh, it's not comprehensive by any means. Um So you definitely need to go, go ahead and go away today and do your own reading. Um, but I think using those principles that I've given, um, and really applying that to the different scenarios in your presentation, you should be able to do quite well with that. And this next part, I'm just going to give you some general interview tips for the CST interview. So you definitely want to have the day off for the interview even though it only lasts 20 minutes. Um, you definitely want to be in the right frame of mind. You don't want to be in the middle of the hospital with a, with a bleep going off in the background with sh with bad in er hospital wifi. So you want to be at home, you know, with your, with your et that you're comfortable with. So, you want to make sure that you book professional leave a as soon as possible. So once you get your invite to interview, book your, your interview slot and let your rotor coordinator know and not your CS your es know that you're taking professional leave on that day. Important to note that this is different from study leave comes out of a different pot of leave. Um And so some rotor coordinators might not be familiar with it. So just look on the BMA website uh so that you're armed with that knowledge when challenged. Um when you're booking your, your interview, uh you, it's worth thinking about when you actually want to do your interview. So uh it really depends if you know, if you're a morning or night or evening person when you're going to do better. Um You can look at the evidence, um which is published, which shows that um there is some evidence that there are the people who have S CST interviews, they get slightly higher scores in the mornings and in the second week of interviews. So this was a paper published, I think last year, the f the, the authors fo um the CST um interview scores and showed that there was some, there was a statistically significant difference between mornings versus afternoons and first week versus second week. But again, this is, you know, it's, it's a week data and it really is more of a case by case basis So, if you're an afternoon person, don't just book the morning slot just because you think that, you know, you're gonna do better in the morning. Um, having said that I didn't really have much of a choice for my interview because II was on a course the day that it was released. And so II wasn't able to book till quite late. So I didn't really have much of a choice and I just took what I could get and I wouldn't let it worry. I wouldn't worry about it too much. But most importantly, in my opinion, I think you should avoid the first and last interviews of each of the half days. So avoiding the last interview slot is, you know, it's, it's obvious you don't want to be the last person before the lunch break. You don't want to be the last person before 5 p.m. just because your interviewers are gonna be slightly hangry. They're going to be very tired after a full day of interviewing and they may not, you know, pay much, too much attention. They may not be in the best of moods and they probably have listened to very similar things on repeat throughout the entire day. Um And you, in my opinion, you should avoid the first slot as well just because, um, this is very much pseudopsychology. But um in my opinion, when you're going first, your interviewers don't have anyone to sort of benchmark you against. So even though. You're, you're very good, you're, you know, you're excellent. They may not, they may be hesitant to give you the maximum score just because, you know, they have nothing to compare you to. Um, my last tip on this is easier said than done, but try to stay relaxed on the day, you know. Um, it's good to be slightly nervous. It really sharpens your mind but try not to be overly anxious, overly nervous, you know, make sure you have the day off, make sure you're in a very calm environment and you have no other worries and you can focus solely on the interview. Um and this is going to be my last slide. Um and this is just a compilation of interview t online interview tips that I've gathered over my my few years of doing online interviews. So you definitely want to treat it like a face to face interview, take it just as seriously, book your leave, you know, don't, don't try to get away with doing an interview in the hospital in your scrubs. You want to make sure you're dressed professionally, dressed apart, you know, gents wear a suit and tie, ladies wear something equally professional, please. Um And you also want to have very good lighting in your room. So making sure your face is well lit up, you know, ways to do this. You can either face a window or you can buy a cheap ring light off Amazon or or off ebay or something like that. You want to make sure you test your, your mic and your camera beforehand, making sure that they are working properly and you want to make sure that you get the best uh audio quality you can. So I don't think it's worth getting a dedicated mic. But um for example, II found out a year or two ago that the, the audio quality that I get from the, the mic built into my laptop is better than the, the mic built into my, into my airport. So I've been using uh my, my laptops mic ever since. Next. Uh you want to test the Cuper com software ahead of time. You definitely don't want the interview day to be your first time using that software. It's going to be completely foreign. I've never used it. I've never even heard of it. If I were you, I'd download it um soon, you know, tomorrow and just have a play around with it. So I've, I have a friend who had, who's had quite a horror story with, with unfamiliar software. So this, he had an interview a couple of years ago. Um and it was a team's interview, I think at before this, all he ever used was Zoom. And so the team's interview was uh very much a foreign thing to him. Um And he rocked up to his interview, he clicked the, the link and he was just in the, the pre waiting lobby. So he hadn't even joined the lobby and he was just sat there staring at, you know, the, um, the screen where you can see your own, your own, uh, camera just waiting there and he waited and waited, um, his interview slot came up, interview slot ended and he was just waiting, he thought there was a, a delay or something and nobody, you know, messaged him or got back to him and he just completely missed his um his uh interview slot. And you know, it, it being the way it is, they, they didn't offer a uh a replacement slot. So definitely don't want that to happen to you. So make sure you test the software beforehand. Um Next, you want to make sure you have the best internet connection as um as possible. So definitely don't use hospital Wi Fi uh use the uh the internet that you have at home. So, um if possible, you know, plug your, plug your computer or laptop in, so you can so that you're connected to the Ethernet rather than use Wi Fi just because the Ethernet will be more stable and more predictable. Um If your computer doesn't have a direct connection to it, you can buy one of those dongles um for about a five or a Tenner on Amazon and they work quite well. Next tip is to make sure that when you're presenting, you want to look directly into your camera rather than looking at the, at your interviewers, the heads of your interviewers on your screen, just because you, if you look at them rather than the camera, you'll be looking slightly off center and w what they perceive will be that you're not looking directly at them. So, you know, getting into the habit of looking and speaking directly into the camera and definitely don't, you know, just don't look around the room during the interview. So keep the distractions around at a minimum. And my last tip is um try and keep the camera uh your camera at eye level. Er, so that you, you know, you're not looking down at a pretty unflattering angle and you're not looking up um which just looks a bit awkward. So make sure that you elevate your laptop or your camera or whatever with a few books so that you can um you can present at eye level. So these are all, you know, they're all small tips um which, you know, individually, they may not make much of a difference. But I think, you know, if you sum all of them up, um it actually will probably make quite a big difference and like I said, first impressions um matter so much in these uh short interviews that you want to really convey yourself and give yourself the best chance possible. And that's the, the end of my talk. Thank you very much for listening to me ramble on about the management station um happy to take any questions. Um And if everyone could scan the QR code and leave some feedback, that would be fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so much, Andrew. That was amazing. Um Really great succinct overview of the management station. Um And it's clear why you did so well on it. So we'll have a couple of minutes for questions. Um We've got one already, so I'll read it out for you, Andrea and you could um give us your answer. Must be examples of situations that need to be proven with evidence or free speech situations that you actually did in your career. Um It's not the situation that you need to um no evidence is required. So I didn't submit, you know, the, the things that I talked about in mine, I didn't submit any evidence. Um I haven't even collected evidence for any of that really. Um But obviously don't lie if it comes back to you, er your career is gone. So it's definitely not worth it uh just to score a few extra points. Um But uh yeah, so y you definitely try to keep it real but you don't need to provide any evidence, I think. Uh It's also worth mentioning it, it can be scenarios you've had in your professional career, um situations where you've been a leader in your extra curricular activities such as a sports team captain as you mentioned, Andrew. Um But it could also be situations where you've acted as a leader. So for example, during a cardiac arrest or during an MDT meeting, so it doesn't necessarily need to be a role. It just needs to be a scenario where you can extract leadership skills, how you develop them and how you solve the problems. But they should, as you say, definitely be a rule because if not, you're gonna struggle to remember the spiel during the um the, the interview and it's also, it is a probity issue. Yeah, definitely. So we have another one, does a nonmedical example in the presentation have to be completely irrelevant to medicine. Um So this is, it's not a rule about this. It was if, if anything, this was a rule I made up just to maximize your points uh based on the uh based on the person's specs. Uh they just want you to show a range of range of leadership, you know, you being a leader in different scenarios because, you know, if you're, you know, you can def you can, it's easy to be a leader if you only focus on one thing at a time. But as a surgeon, you know, your career is so varied, you need to show leadership in different scenarios and one easy way to do that is to show that you've done it professionally or academically. And also, you know, something r not related to medicine or peri related to medicine in a way. So, I mean, it really depends on what, um, what scenarios you pick would depend on what you have available to your specific case. I wouldn't, I wouldn't worry too much if it's completely irrelevant to medicine. So, if you were, you know, the chair or the president of a academic society and university, that's, you know, that's not related to clinical medicine. But it also uh would be a contrast to something that you've done within medicine. And remember that these interviews sit through a huge amount of people scenarios. And so if you do want to use an example, that's a little bit different, that might be interesting. Um for example, from travels or from other slightly different examples um that could be beneficial but just make it relevant. Don't choose any exotic example just because it's interesting or entertaining. Yeah, definitely. Have it related back to the question that they've asked. It's best to have a, a slightly more common standard example uh and have it, you know, score the points from it rather than have something that's really cool and exciting but not really be relevant any further questions from anyone, please put them in the charts, I think um it's a really good point and as well about learning your spiel beforehand, it's free points and it's just, you just have to do it, you have to have it extremely succinct. You have to have practiced it with a little bit of margins. So 10 to 50 seconds of margin because you'll always be slower and more nervous in your, in your interview. But there's no excuse for not knowing it off by heart. It's something you can score three points and also something to relax you during an interview because this is your stage. It is your time to shine. Yeah, definitely. And a way to think about it is that, you know, when you're practicing the clinical scenarios, you know, thinking about pancreatitis, thinking about ATL S they those may or may not come up. But the thing that, you know, definitely will come up is your three minute speech, but there's no reason to not be prepared for that. We've got another one. What kind of examples can you use for leadership in medicine? Um Anything really? So what Freya mentioned earlier was, you know, in the clinical scenario, um you in the clinical setting, you leading an arrest, um you leading an MDT, those are, those are good examples of leadership. Um What I used personally was, you know, was somewhat related to medicine. Um I talked about when I was the, when I was uh when I organized the national teaching program, uh again, you know, um uh selling myself showing a little, showing a bit off on the CV. So when I was a national, when I organized the National teaching program, which was related to medicine, there were some problems, ii fixed those problems by displaying this, that and whatever leadership skills. Um And yeah, that's what I used. Do you know what if, what your experience of that was for you? I think you have to um you know, remember that you're applying for a course surgical training role. So you won't have that many experiences of leadership and medicine and no one's expecting you to have. But there are quite a few um times in medicine, in foundation training where you would have been a leader. So, for example, during a ward round, we know that they're sometimes led by the funds nephews shouldn't be, but they are, um that's an example where you would have, you know, structured the ward round, delegated tasks prioritized. Um And, you know, sought support from seniors and offered support to your juniors if you're enough to. Um So that's that scenario, an arrest, I mean, you're very unlikely to lead an arrest on your own as enough to. Um so be a bit cautious about using it, but you can, you know, extract time in your um leadership role in that scenario. Um And otherwise MDT meetings, you know, if you've worked on sort of a more outpatient settings, you might have been a lead there. Um So, but I think that's why people often use nonclinical scenario because you're more likely to have had a leadership role in something extracurricular. And I um my, my personal opinion on this, I think you, you might disagree Freya. But um with the leadership these leadership roles. I, when I was doing it and I was thinking of what to use, I thought it would be better to uh not use one, you know, leading an arrest and, you know, leading water rounds all great. But you're kind of thrust into that as part of your job. Um And almost everyone goes through that as part of your job. So it doesn't really make you stand out. Whereas talking about things that you've elected, you've put yourself forward to doing. And most of the time this is going to be extracurricular. Um If you, you know, applied for a competitive um committee position or whatever, that might have more sway, you know, that shows that you're actively seeking out these leadership um opportunities. But um you may not be able to have two flesh out examples of that. So, you know, you just have to work with what you have really. Yeah, I agree with that. I think you need to be opportunistic and if you have something to show and to be proud of and definitely show you that rather than uh a task that everyone's been through and it's a really good point. Um Another question here for you, would you mention you attended a six month leadership course? Would that be pointless? And is it better used? Uh And it's better used talking about two full examples of leadership? Bye. Um So for this, it really depends on what the six month leadership course was um if, you know, if it was just, you, you attend a few lectures once a month over the six months and not really do anything with it, just listening to what someone thinks, what someone's opinion on leadership is and you just passively absorbing it. You know, that's, that's not gonna, that doesn't really reflect much at all or it doesn't reflect very well. Um And in that case, I would definitely talk about two examples of you taking the initiative and developing your leadership skills. But if it was a six month course where, you know, they assigned you a project and help you, you know, kick start uh developing your leadership skills then and you actually have a, you had a problem which you solved and you, you grew, you grew from it and learned something from it then, you know, that's, it's a good scaffold really um for your, for your answer. So it really depends on what, what that six month leadership course was and what it entailed. I think you have to have a point in mentioning it as well because, you know, a lot of people do leadership courses. But if you can, if you can use that in a, a scenario saying for example, that you want to develop your leadership skills because of X problem by going to this leadership school uh leadership um course you gained y skills, then it would be something worth mentioning. But don't just mention it for the sake of mentioning that you spent a lot of time and probably money on this course because unfortunately it won't count much towards your, your CST application. Yeah. Save the tick boxes for the self assessment. Yeah, you may hear a lot of these interviews. Remember they've been through a career of medicine and probably, you know, tons of interviews and there's not that much that's going to impress them. What's important is that you tick the boxes and that you show that you're a competent um uh colleague uh that someone wants to work with. Um what's an example of bad leadership you can use? Um Let me try and think um off the top of my head um for any, if you have anything to add, you know, I think you can, you can turn around all the good leadership skills, right? Um And, and use the opposite. That's what I would use in a situation like that. So someone there is, by the way, there is um I think there's a document on good leadership on, I can't remember if it's GMC or B MJ, but there is a really good document that exhibits all the good leadership skills to use them and just twist them around. So for example, someone who works poorly under pressure as opposed to someone who works well under pressure, someone who's supportive versus someone who's unsupportive, um someone who acts irrationally versus someone who uh acts rationally. So just try and turn things around and you'll get your answers. Yeah. And how to structure with our colleagues. It's a really challenging thing to present in an interview. How would you approach that scenario? Andrew? Um Ideally, I'd have prepared this beforehand. Um And really think about it. Um But the whole, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that you, you know, you can say that, you know, leadership is not, is not binary, it's not good or there's no real, very good, very bad. It's not a yes or no thing, but, you know, your colleague may not have some of the skills, um some of the qualities that you've, you know, that, you know, to be of good leadership um uh of good leadership qualities. And uh you can mention that, oh, you know, when they were leading this arrest, I could notice that they were, you know, uh they were not communicating uh very clearly to the different members of staff, you know, but we got there in the end. Um This is in contrast to other um arrest scenarios. Uh I have, I have uh witnessed in the past where the team lead, you know, was uh stood, stood back, gave very clear instructions. And I think, and you can say that you can, you think that, you know, having um clear communication um with your team members in high pressure environments is an important skill. The main thing is really sort of uh taking whatever lesson that you've learned um and twisting it to something good that you can incorporate to your, to your leadership uh style. I also think it's worth running through the lead, different leadership styles and you can also apply this to, you know, someone having certain leadership style that doesn't match well with people they're trying to lead. So you're not saying that they're a bad leader but that their style doesn't fit in well with um their team. So, you know, in that sense, you're not incriminating your colleague or leader, but you're just saying that they, they didn't have good insight despite in their way being a good leader, it's very important not to speak down about your colleagues because remember the, the people you're speaking to your interviewers will hopefully some day be your colleagues. Um So we'll have last question. Can we use leading a regional teaching session with your consultant where you liaised with M BT, involved the patient and their family members to collect more information and lead the presentation throughout? As an example. Sounds fantastic. Sounds like it's hitting all the boxes. Uh If there was a challenge along the way, I'd definitely mention it and how however you solve that problem, we'd give you the extra bony points and then reflect on it. Very good, definitely show that you have developed yourself. So they don't just want you to show all your skills they want you to show how you have developed those skills. So if you just at least put in the end, like I said, what this taught you um and how you changed as a result. But yeah, that's a great example. Well done. You. Great. Well, we'll round it off there. Um Any further questions, you can always email uh mind the bleep, you'll find our email on the website and we will have our second session, which is sorry, our third session, which on the um clinical scenario next week, same time on Thursday. So thank you so much again, Andrew. It was really useful and good luck to everyone setting the interviews. Good luck, everyone you can email me. Um I put my email up uh if you have any other questions. But yeah, good luck everyone. Thanks for coming tonight. Thanks for having me, Freya. Thank you.