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Hello, Liz. I can actually hear you. That will help a mute. There we go. Yeah, that's great. Thank you for joining us this evening. And do you have any slides that you'd like to share? Do? Yeah. Would you like me to do that for you, or would you like to share? And, um, I can share from here because it's quite big, so I'm not sure how I get it to you. Okay, Let's Let's give Isabel's It just arrived as well. If you gain, we can protect you. Co host yet just like, you know, I'm just gonna camera off and, um Hi, Isabel. Um, yeah, I've got I think I've got a bit of an eye infection coming, so I feel like I'm I look a bit strange, so I'll camera off if that's okay and leave you guys to it. But I will be in the background. So if you need me at all, just, um, check your fancy board. Yeah. It's a good backdrop, isn't it? Yeah. Remain is here, too, So I'm gonna have a play. Sure. That so? That should do it. Yeah, I can see that. That's fine. Okay. There's nothing if I forget that they put things. Why? Oh, it's not going further. Oh, that's strange. Stopped. Maybe it wants me to click. There we go. Coffee? That's your book. And then Oh, stop. Share a call. Great. Are you? I am recording at the moment. Are you happy to be recorded? Yes. Yeah. And are you happy for us to share the recording after? Yes, as long as I don't see anything. Too bad. I didn't talk on leadership to the Northwest, ICM, Cheney's and I didn't say anything bad about my colleagues, but I wasn't 100% complimentary about them. And I was like, this better not get shared anywhere. Let's just face it. But I'm not expecting to say anything. That's not 100% lovely about my colleagues tonight. If you did, if you do think you said something you'd rather not share, just let us know, and we would obviously Hi, Kim. We can't We can't hear You can see you, but higher. Amina. Hello. Thank you for sorting it, Tessa. No problem. Uh, I think she'll be coming back in a sec. Um, how are you? I mean, have you just joined our National Medical directors clinical fellow scheme. Did I see you on the It's the original one. Yeah. The regional regional. Yeah. For the Northeastern Yorkshire. Yeah. Was it day one? Yeah. It's still introductory type things and be learning and admin, but yeah, it's very exciting, though. Can I just ask you a quick question? Are we? We're on the right link now, aren't we? Because I know that. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the link for the presentation. And then there's another one for the the workshop after I just wanted to separate them, Um, so that we didn't have lots of people staying on for a limited workshop. So yeah. Um, did you hear me now? Oh, yeah. Hi. Everyone thinks it's all kind of coming in and doing this way. So I would I will leave you guys to it. I'll just I'll just do the social media bit. Twitter bit. Yeah. Any issues WhatsApp and I will do. Yeah. My only tip is that if you mute all speakers, it meets the present as well. I didn't know that until I cut the guy off last time so I can be in the background and just checking. Everyone's on mute if that helps. I just hated something. So So to kick off, I'll just do a very mini introduction to the event. And then I'll hand over to Isabel to introduce you. Liz, if that's okay, and then go for it. And then hopefully Isabel can just go through and check the questions at the end of people put things in the chat, okay? And then we'll move over to do the, you know, do your talk and the break out sessions afterwards. Yeah. Isabel, do you know enough facts about me? You asked me a question, which I didn't answer. No, that's fine. I just wanted to check if there's anything specific that you want me to say in the introduction. So I was just going to introduce you, um, using the blurb that you provided and, you know, just mentioned obviously that I worked with you during the coated pandemic, and I saw some examples of great leadership. So which is why I thought of you when we were doing this talk. Thank you. Yes, I've just had, um I notice in the city, actually, because I have done it for four years in December, and it's a bit of a draining role because every problem is suddenly your problem. So I think four years is quite enough, but I think they'll be other leadership things to go on to. I hope so. Are you still happy for me to introduce you to the clinical director? Yeah, I'm still clinical director. The first of December. My colleagues don't know yet. That's good. Yes, I have told the medical director, but have not told my consultant colleagues. I'm telling them later this week, so I'm actually going to log out of my whats app on my laptop. It's always It's It's, um so let's we just let you know we had around 70. Sign up for this evening. Um, I imagine will get a little bit of drop out, but it's a good sign up so far. So yeah, it helps me. Yeah, it's so hot in London. It's 29 degrees. I can't cope. It's just that disgusting. Like sticky, horrible weather. Yeah, she didn't come out the weekend. Really? Yeah, Exactly. So people come and they don't go to the pub instead. Get coverted. Yeah. Yeah, I got a couple of friends who went to festivals and now have coverted. Oh, dear. Yes. Yeah. The other sense vaccinated people that would have, you know, that don't take risks. Generally, I wouldn't go to the festival this year because I just didn't want to, But they weren't and yeah, no, they're coated Positive. Gosh, Maybe that could be our new marketing. Uh, tagline. Stay in for our webinars. Don't get coated. Yeah, like that. I quite like that. Hm. Mhm. My two year old son is yelping in the background. So I do apologize if he continues to do that, hoping you can hear him. I can't hear him. Okay, good. I think my husband is trying to like quite Linda. My Children normally have to appear on every zoom call I'm on. But I've dispatched grandparents tonight, so there won't be any small people appearing here. Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming along and doing this because this is a This is a pilot, really? This webinar series, and it's the first time we've we've done it and we're trying to sort of develop basically what will become like a 12 month program that's a bit more kind of well defined but this is sort of pilot year just to see what works and find interesting people and things. So thank you so much for coming along. All right. I'm always happy to talk about leadership and things because it was never you're here soon, but it was never really on my radar. It kind of accidentally happened. Um, Now I appear to be talking about it quite a lot, so yeah. No, it's brilliant. Thank you. And we we over subscribed in the workshop test. Uh, no, we're just about spot on, actually, 24. So, um yeah. So I I hope we don't get any drop outs on that one, actually, Uh, just to make it more interactive, if not going Yeah, I would say there's a couple of stragglers that I think we'll join from the TSG if for some reason people do Okay, we always have some people on the back bone. And just to put things out if needed. Yeah, uh, so we've got five in the waiting room, and I'm just going to send out a quick starting in five minutes. Email. I'm going to delete that, you know? Yeah. Um okay, So we've got about one minute to go. You happy for us? For me to start letting people in? Yeah. Everyone happy? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Mhm. Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining. I'll just give it another minute to make sure everyone is logged in, and then we'll begin. Mhm. Okay, we'll get started, and then people can just join as and when. So hi, everyone. Welcome to the FMLN trainees steering groups Third webinar, which is part of our introductions Leadership Webinar series. My name is Namenda and the north of England lead for the TSG. And my colleague Isabel is the deputy for the region. When we were thinking about which topic to pick for this webinar were both immediately drawn to the concept of compassionate leadership. And that's because compassionately ship has always been important. But in terms of health care, there's now mounting evidence that it improves not only staff engagement and retention, but also patient outcomes. And we know that our communities and humanity desperately needs more compassion, particularly this point in our history. Um, if we want to successfully respond to the ongoing covert pandemic and the impending climate crisis So if we can encourage authentic, compassionate leadership to permeate not only our work environments but also our societies and are cultures. Then we can hopefully have a more positive future for all humanity. So tonight's event is aimed to discuss competitive leadership in more detail. And it's split into two sections with the Webinar by Doctor Liz Thomas, followed by a limited access workshop with Dr Seuss Easterling, which will follow on the separate zoom links that you'll have all received. If you've registered for that particular workshop, we really hope you enjoy the event and take something away from it. So without further ado, I'm going to hand over to Isabel to introduce our first speaker. Uh, so high all thank you for coming this evening. Uh, I'm giving a warm welcome to Doctor Liz Thomas, who's a consultant, anesthetist and intensive care practitioner at Stockport NHS Foundation Trust. She's also been clinical director for the trust Um, for the last four years. Uh, I'm finally Doctor Thomas is somebody that I looked up to an as an example of excellent leadership during the co vivid, uh, pandemic outbreak when I was redeployed to I see you. Um, so even as a surgical trainee, um, you know, I learned a huge amount from Doctor Thomas and the way that she sort of lead the team, Um, joined the copay pandemic. So without further ado, I'll hand over to Dr Thomas herself. Hello, everybody. I'm Liz Thomas, and I'm going to just share my screen. So let me just press a few buttons. So thank you for inviting me to talk to you tonight. I'm going to talk to you about compassionate leadership. So for the next 20 minutes or so, you get a reflective talk on things that I've learned over my time as a clinical leader. Um, there's a lot of evidence and a lot of study out there in medical leadership and business leadership. Um, but I think quite often things that you learn as you do it and reflecting on things that have gone one and things that have not gone well generally formed you into a better leader. So a little bit about me. Um, I graduated in 2003 from Manchester. I did some junior doctor training. I was a p r h 01 of the last lot. And then I did an F Y two pilot year I then decided I want to be underneath test. So I got an anesthetic rotation and then Lantus hit and I took, uh Well, I got an ST post. Um, I realized that I was just part of the machine and I was going through and I wasn't anything special, and I want to do something a bit different. So after ST five, I went to Australia for six months where I worked in a helicopter retrieval of pediatrics. Neonatal intensive care. Um, then I had some maternity leave. I got a consultant job. I've had a bit more maternity leave and then in 2017, my hospital was undergoing a restructuring and intensive care, had a clinical sleep, but it's going to be made into the directorate. So the advert went out for clinical director in intensive care, and I didn't really consider it. But then people started tapping on the shoulder and pulling me in two offices and saying things like, You should apply for this job And I laughed in their faces at the start because I said, I'm the part time one. I'm the most junior in the department. My my youngest child was only 18 months at a time, and I said, I don't think I can do this But as more people said I should try, I thought, Well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So I applied for the CD role and was competitively interviewed against my colleagues. And then I got the post. So what do we know about leadership? Well, the G M. C. Is very, um, involved in leadership and feels that there should be leadership and management responsibility in training for all doctors. And obviously I'm preaching to the converted here because you're all member or training members of the factory of medical leaders and managers. So just for a little minute, think about what your leadership style is. As I said, I hadn't really thought much about leadership until I ended up in a leadership role myself. I had a consultant interview for a job I didn't end up getting, and one of their questions was, What is your leadership style? Um, and this flawed me quite a lot because I knew what teaching style I did, and I had lots of other ideas, but my leadership style, I wasn't so sure about. So I did say I was like a little ray of sunshine, hoping to get everybody to do things and lead by example. But if I'd have known about the term compassionate leadership back at that point, I would have used it then. So when I started thinking about leadership, I thought I'd do some research and obviously go to Amazon, see what you can find. You can see my postcode there if anyone wants to send me presents. No joking. But if you put leadership into Amazon, you get 50,000 results. So that's an awful lot of information. Oh, if you put compassionate leadership into Amazon, then there's only 339 results, so it narrows things down quite a lot. And if you put medical compassionate leadership, the results get even smaller. So just for a few seconds can you define what compassion it is? Because quite often we think we know what these words mean. But just in your head build, build a definition, and then in a second, I'll read you the Cambridge Dictionary definition. I won't leave the awkward silence too long, so it says compassion is feeling or showing sympathy and sadness for the suffering bad luck of others and wanting to help them, which seems a slightly strange way to be a leader because it's talking about suffering and bad luck in others. And I really hope that the people I manage and the team I lied doesn't have bad luck and suffering. But I guess we all have different types of suffering, and there'll be times that things are not quite as straightforward as others. Um, this is a blog post that was published last year in the It's freely available, and I suggest that everybody has a reading this article. It's not a very long articles that won't bore you, because I found it very useful when I was trying to collect my thoughts on compassionate leadership. So the references in this article come mostly from the last 10 to 15 years, so it is quite a modern term, and as we saw previously, there's not been that much written about it. But there is evidence, as runny Nose said, that compassionate leadership makes a better team. There's a lot of evidence in H s that if you have a happy, healthy team, then their levels of sickness will be lower, and that they will make less errors and that they will, you know, happy team work harder and better. And at the end of the day, as a manager and as a leader, you want all your staff to be happy and healthy because then they'll actually come to work and do the job. So I don't know if it's slightly self centered that I want my team to be happy because it makes my life a bit easier. But if I've got a happy team, then they're more likely to be able to do the job properly and do it well. And if people are happy, then they do the job well. And then there's less unforced errors. So the four areas of compassionate leadership involved attending to people empathizing with people, understanding and helping them. So, um, being available, attending to them When I'm around, when I have my CD sessions on the weekly rotor, I always make sure I'm in my office because quite often people will just come by and tell you something, whereas if they don't know where you are, then they're not going to tell you if it's the chance conversations where the key factors will come out. Um, empathizing and understanding is quite interesting because you need to empathize a certain amount and probably not sympathized too much. But sometimes the amount of empathy you need. What am I trying to say? Um, yes. I find empathizing sometimes easier than others, depending on the situation. So just to yourself, think, what do you think makes a good medical leader? And I know you're all from a very wide range of backgrounds with a wide range of experience. Um, but just have to think for a few seconds, another uncomfortable silence about what makes a good leader. So I actually think it's easier to turn this completely on its head and think about your worst colleague or the worst consultant that, you know, and then reverse everything. So now I just think for a few seconds about your worst colleague, and generally these kind of words come out, you know, not a team player, A poor community cater. Rude, lazy, self centered, lax self awareness. So simply if you turn that all in your head, you get a great leader. Um, so other things that compassionate leaders show being available open and honest. Um, I live my life. Very honestly, I can't lie and I don't like lying. So if something has gone wrong or hasn't gone to plan, then I will put my hands up and say this. I'm sorry. This is an ideal situation or I'm sorry this area has been made or even I'm sorry. I've made a mistake, and I know that can be quite hard, and a lot of leaders won't do that. But I definitely believe that being authentic and honest is very important. Um, I also think that listening is perhaps the most important role of a compassionate leader because people will tell you what the problem is, and people will tell you what's worrying them. And as the old adage goes, a problem shared is a problem halved and especially in the first way of the pandemic. I spent quite a lot of time talking to people to find out what was making them concerned. And it would generally be a family member or somebody abroad or their own health, because at the start of the first way of the pandemic, we were all at sea, not knowing what the future is going to hold, not knowing how it was going to affect us what we're preparing for. And if people verbalized what exactly made them worried, they generally felt a bit better about it. Or you could help them or talk about it and say, Well, we're all worried about You know, I understand that you're worried about your elderly mother or, you know, could we do this? So I'm a big believer in listening. And, um, what you need is active listening skills. So there's courses on active listening, or you can do some research. It's far too simple. Well, it's far too sorry. It's quite difficult to do proper listening. It takes concentration and focus. And my brain goes a million miles an hour sometimes, you know, have I fixed the kids? Peek it. Did I switch off the hot water heater? Do I need to take my car for a service? Know you need to wipe everything out your mind and actually listen to what the person you're talking to saying, Um and then it's amazing what comes out. Um, I also think I've taken a lot of, um, influence from inspiring leaders. So the two ladies at the top are too intensive care consultants. The lady in the turquoise is the dean of our faculty, Um, Allison Pittard and the lady in the Royal Blue is Danny Bride and the Vincristine. And I've been lucky to work with them on some committees at the faculty of I see em, and I think they're both very good leaders. When I'm not being a doctor, I sing as much as possible. And the man waving the stick is so Mark Elder and he conducts the choir that I sing with. And he is an amazing leader, not in a, um, in a kind of crowd control way, because he has to look after the orchestra almost 100 players plus 140 singers and get us to do what he wants us to do when he wants us to do it and then explain to us what we're doing wrong and how we should change it. And I've learned an awful lot over the years being conducted by some Mark and then a colleague that I work with the smiley gentleman, the bottom. He was our medical director for five years, and he's an intensive care consultant, and it's always nice to have someone local that you can look up to and learn from their leadership styles. So something else which I found important and helpful is, um, understanding myself and understanding what makes me tick. And then you can understand what makes other people's tick as well. So we can probably talk for hours about Myers Briggs, whether it is a good tool or not, good tool and the logic behind it and all that kind of thing. I like it because it's a mother daughter combo. I like it because we talked about it a lot, and it seems to make sense. But if you realize that what makes me take it's not the same thing that makes other people take, and everyone works in different ways that can really help your leadership style. Um, interestingly, the first time I did this, I worked out, and my husband was the complete opposite to me, and it made me understand our marriage a lot more because he's a computer programmer, so he starts tasks. But he's not a complete tasks, and once I worked out in my head that he would never complete the task, and that's just the way he's built it made things a lot easier, but it's also useful for colleagues. Oh, um, so I'm an executive. I'm a e S t j. And it means that I'm a bit of an extrovert. I like leading. I don't mind making decisions. I can work under pressure, so I think it is quite helpful. And the websites? 16 personalities. You can do it for free if you want to work out who you are. So hopefully some of the things I've said will resonate. I know that I've not spoken about leading an intensive care unit through a coated pandemic because, to be honest, it's still a bit fresh, and I don't think I'm quite ready to talk about it. Um, I do believe that there's leadership for everybody, and I'm delighted that there's this training scaring group because I think as doctors and medics, we were all leaders. You know, if you become consultants, I'm sure some of you will be on the GP training path. But concern GPS are all leaders. You might end up in management educational rolls. There's leadership there, and in time you might go on to have national and regional rolls. And also there's leadership in your everyday, you know, work if you're working on the ward's if you're doing a war drowned if you're involved in teaching. So I do think that we should all embrace leadership and learn about it. So as I got you here, I'm going to give you some unsolicited leadership advice. Um, I do think this is part of compassionate leadership, but get to know people. I try to remember people's names. I'm not very good at it because I work half the time in intensive care, and I remember all the intensive care nurses names. Then I moved back to theater. Then I try and remember all the theater nurses names. Then I go back to I see you and we'll. I've forgotten all their names again. Um, but I do try to remember people's names and use them because I think if you use people's names, then they feel more humanized and they feel more, um involved, and they feel like you're interested in them. And also I'll probably be asking them a favor in the future. So it's always good to have people on side. Um, this one's slightly controversial Update your wardrobe. Look, the part. My mom said to me that you should always dress for the job you want, not the job you've got. I would love to be a professional. Oh, my computer is just That's a bit better. Um, yes, I would love to be a professional opera singer, so I'll go around in a ball gown all the time. No, I won't. But I do try to dress smart for work because if I'm leading things that I need to be responsible, although I do have slightly pink hair at the moment, so I don't know if you can see that. So maybe I take a slight pinch of salt. My own advice. This is one of my favorite slides of all times, and I think is one of the best bits of leadership advice I've ever been given. There is always two sides to every story, and occasionally both sides can be correct. So when you're in a leadership role, lots of people will come to you and say, No, no, no exit. It's a bit like parenting, my Children, you know, ex said. Why such and such hit me this happened and it's really bad. And what would be bad. So if Mister six came to me and said Someone's telling me that it's nine and it's just not it's completely wrong. And if I went to Mr Nine and shouted at him, saying, Why are you arguing with Mister six? Mister Six is clearly right. I wouldn't get anywhere. But if I went to Mr Nine and I said, Could you tell me about your part of the story? If I say Mister six has come to speak to me, would you like to tell me what's going on? Then I'll get Mr nine side the story and sometimes both sides are right. So I do think you should try to ask around without any preconceptions to find out what actually is going on in the situation. Um, Charlie Maxi is a fantastic author. I hope you all come across his books. He has a lot of wise things. Another part of being a compassionate leadership is we're all part of the same team. I could not do my job if we didn't have the cleaners, the porters, the pharmacy text, you know, the admin people. All the lowest paid people in the hospital team are such vital parts. And so I do Thank the cleaner. Talk to the cleaner. Apologize if I've walked in there freshly mopped floors. I talked to reporters help the hcts just because we're all in this together and if we want our patients to get better, then we're much better if you work as a team. Um, we all have periods of self doubt, and we all have times in our life where curve balls are thrown and things are difficult. So when you're going through one of these difficult periods, I think this is quite a good adage to hold on to that. All you need to do is take the next step, because if you keep taking the next step, then you will get through the difficult period. Um, other management stuff. There's always work, politics and things. I've ended up sorting out as the CDs. I've had loads of budgets to manage. I suddenly had to buy 16 intensive care ventilators when I started the CD. I don't have a clue what to do, but I managed to buy the right one's. Thankfully, lots of things can be daunting and difficult, but I've also learned that you're never alone. Um, no matter how high you get up, there's always someone at the end of the phone who would happily give you advice. You know, if you're a CT trainee, there'll be a registrar around or a fellow CT trainee. If you're a registrar, there'll be a nice consultant or someone I would much rather one of my trainees, One of the consultants rang me up even in the middle of the night. If I can help them with a problem, then they got into a lot of trouble. And I'm very lucky that my associate medical director, my boss, is a very accessible person. And I've got otherwise shoulders to share my issues with, um, challenges of leadership there will. As I said earlier, there will always be difficult times, and there will always be natural periods of self doubt, and most of the time we're all just dragging it so I might come across like I know what I'm doing. But probably 75% of the time, I am just doing what I think is best and hoping it's all right. Um, leadership challenges. There's always time time management, you know, my clinical duties versus managerial duties versus my other interests. Um, as I mentioned before, unanticipated responsibilities. If I knew I had to buy 16 ventilators when I started the CD, I might not have done it, because to me, I don't care if I drive a Ford Escort or Scooter October or Mercedes. They're all cars, and I felt about the same about ventilator. But then I also felt I wasn't a proper intensive care consultant if I didn't love the ventilator. Um, we all know about the workload in the NHS having to do things as trainees. You'll have to do lots to get through your ERCPs, and you have to do lots of stuff in your own time. Um, difficult colleagues can be quite a challenge. Um, some people are more difficult than others and also sometimes staying professionally, because if I've had a difficult colleague do something to me, the first thing I want to do is go around about it to everything, but unfortunately, that's not a professional thing to do. So you have to have strategies to help you with these issues as they can. Um, just going off on a slight tangent in leadership, you're quite often find that you want people to do things for you, either a favor or delegate. Some tasks, and it's quite interesting because there are normally quite a few barriers on people. If people don't deliver the goods, there's always a reason why they haven't delivered the goods. So, first of all, can it be their personality? Are they a person that just doesn't deliver the goods? But have they done it because you've given them something? They think it's a difficult thing to do. So are they struggling to do it? And they're not saying, Is it a stressful thing, or is it not their priority? And sometimes when things haven't gone to plan or when things that have been promised haven't been delivered, I try to think about why people might not have done something and what was the barrier to why they didn't do it. Generally, at the end of the day, it's not because they're a difficult person or they've got a bad personality. It's just because they've had other priorities or it's stressful or they have not known what to do. Um, last pieces of unsolicited advice never walk past the problem. It's always much easier to sort things out in the here and now, if you can. I'm not sure I like this advice, but it's things that I've been told in the past. Once you've heard something, you cannot hear it, which is quite difficult as a leader because there's been times that people have said to me about people's poor behavior. Um, and once I know about it, then I feel it's a responsibility to deal with it. Because quite often, if people displaying poor behavior, then they're struggling and they probably need some help and they might be unwell and for the job, you know, there might be something going on. So, um, I do have to say people sometimes, you know, if you tell me this, I don't want to hear gossip. I only want to hear things that are substantiated, that you'll stand by because once I've heard something, you can't even hear it. And as I said before, you're never alone. Sometimes it does feel lonely as a leader, but there is always help available. Um, so I'm coming to the end of my random walk through compassionate leadership, and I hope you've all had or something resonated with all of you. So what is my take home message? Um, I try to distill this earlier today, and I'm not sure I've got one. Um, I think compassionate leadership is definitely the way forward. Um, I think I've developed it without really realizing it. But at the end of the day, if I had to distill compassionate leadership, I would probably distillate into listening and listening to what people tell you. So thank you all very much for coming. And I'm very happy to answer any questions. I think Isabel will be dealing with that. So, yeah, I feel free anybody to If they have any questions, come forward and ask them. I think you really can ask me anything. I really don't mind. Um I guess I have a question to start with. Which is how would you approach a quote difficult colleague. Um, because I think that is something that is quite a sensitive topic. And like you've mentioned, you talk, It may often be that people are struggling with something. Yes, I'll start showing so you can see my face and my beautiful chair a bit better. Um, it very much depends on the situation. And then It's a bit like any task that you might do. It's the pre preparation. So work out what you'd like to say, or what is the exact issue that you want to raise with them, because it's very much about picking your battles and sorting out things you can sort out. There's no point in wasting your energy on something that you will never change. You know, I I've ended up managing a lot of people who are older than me and mail, which has had some interesting challenges. But at the end of the day, there are certain things that I will never be able to change the matter What? So if you have to have a difficult conversation, I always spend time thinking about what I'd like to say and how I'd like to say it. I generally have a chat with a confidante first, who knows the person that I want to speak to, to ask their opinion or kind of say this is what I'm trying to say and then find them when you say to somebody, can I have a word? They always think they're in trouble, so generally they say Yes, right now, I'll come. So, you know, find the person and I try to find people an appropriate time. You know, if they're if they're doing an icy wardrobe, go up to them and say, Can I talk to you now? I find them in the coffee room or look at the rotor and find them and then just sit down and ask them how they are. Always try to get on side and then generally ask them what they're taking. The situation is a bit like the six and nine thing and then always have a debrief afterwards, probably with the same confided person we've spoken to before. And sometimes things will go well, and sometimes things will go really, really badly. But I think if you stretch yourself all right and you know what needs to be done. There's been a few problems that I haven't been able to fix, and I've had to get my associate medical director to fix for me, and at the end of the day, I don't think it's anything down to me, my personality. Maybe people don't like me, but realizing that these were problems that I would never fix and would potentially damage me trying to fix. So, yeah, I know your limits as well. So we have some other questions from the audience as well. So the first one is from the mood, and he's asked, How do you tell your boss if you feel they have an issue? E. Simply if you feel unheard about declining, declining by clinically your study leave. It's the same kind of situation as in work out what you need to say and how you're going to say it and then approach the situation sometimes having someone with you, because I know it can be difficult if you're approaching a person in power. So sometimes having someone with you can help you put your side across Sometimes. Doing it in written form is easier, you know, because you can spell out what you want and why you want it. And sometimes realizing that may be what you want isn't in the good of the trust. The department, you know, because some of those things that I want I can't get so really looking to see if what you're asking for is the right thing. And Sarah Page has asked, Have you ever felt to approachable? Do you find that people come to you with too much, and this makes time management difficult. Yes. Um, so I'm a manager of doctors, you know, I'm a clinical director of the I See you. So I'm ultimately responsible for the intensive care. But I'm not a manager of nurses. And I do have times when because I've worked with him for many years and I do consider a lot of them to be friends. There have been times that the nurses have wanted me to fix their nursing problems, and what I generally do is give them some of my time and say, I hear what you're saying And, gosh, isn't this awful? However, I'm going to talk to Matron about it, and you need to talk to me about it because this isn't my bag to sort out mhm. And we've got another question, Which is any tips? Slash key readings on managing your own imposter syndrome slash learning to professionally quote wing it. I think I'm quite masculine in my approach because I don't think I really have imposter syndrome. So I'm not the right person to talk about that. I don't know. I think it might come from my musical background and my performing as in, I've had to just get on with the performance a lot of times. Um, there are so, so sorry. I'm not amazingly arrogant either. I do have all the self doubt and things, but I don't really relate to imposter syndrome, So we're just about on time now, So just to avoid us running over, um, I think we'll move onto the next part of the this evening's Sorry, that's my cat. If anyone wants to find me on Twitter, I'm Liz going on. And you can do, um, meet if you've got anything, any questions or anything that I can help with because I love meeting new people and thank you very much for the invitation to speak. Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much for volunteering your time. Really appreciate. It just popped a link into the chat box to do feedback. If everyone doesn't mind completing that and you will get a certificate on completing that for this particular talk for those of you that you put on to the workshop, if you're able to now leave this event and we'll restart, we'll start the next link and we'll see you there in a couple of minutes for the workshop with Dr Susie Sterling. So thank you all for joining. Thanks so much.