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Oh, right. I'll try not to cough. Hi, guys. We'll give it a minute or two to let people come in. If I've edited the slides in the background while you're sharing, does it still you need to refresh, right? Yeah. I mean, you can you can You just have to, like, tell me, I guess. Or should I just I'll just stop cool. I think you can keep editing for, like, a couple of minutes. I don't know. It's just, uh I just realized that the versions, like the version that you're sharing, is not the same as the one that I had in front of me, But it should be now if you're refreshed. Yeah. Let me just refresh again for your benefit. Thank you. Okay. Just tell me when you guys want to stop. Do we have some people in? I see Eleanor, Amanda and George and the owner and Rachel. Very good. Hi. Amanda. Regulus? Yes, The regular. Now what about all of October? The and less he's truly Oh, she Oh, they truly the king's. You should give it a couple minutes to double digits or up. Happy. Either way, even reaching the end of people's patients. Let's go home. And it was 34. Okay, uh, there's a question just in the chat from Leona. Is this only relevant to SFP applicants or two people applying through the standard process as well? So the and I think 85% of this session will be relevant to everyone. I think there's only a very small percent of this session. I'll be just sfp but the bulk of the session be how to rank jobs. And I think it's more applicable to foundation program where you rank hundreds of jobs. So this is probably more important for you as well. Yeah, the second half is maybe more sfp focus. But the stuff that Alex is going to do at the beginning is really well worth knowing kind of. Whatever you're doing, you have a start. Yet you want to introduce? Yeah, everyone, uh, welcome back to the eighth session, which means this is the eighth week or the end of the second month that we've been doing these online webinar. So thank you for sticking with us all this time. Is that eight session which were calling, ranking and accepting jobs. So we've kind of been through all of the more proximal ends of the process this far. And now we're talking about where this is all actually going, which is getting you the job that you want, which is, of course, what this series is all about. So welcome back. I'm joined once again by Alex and Aqua. But before I asked them to introduce themselves in case we've got anyone new. Is that anything that we say in this talk this evening represents the view of the speaker only, and not that of the NHS as a whole, or are employing trusts. This is all just friendly advice and knowledge. Hi, everyone. My name is Alex Train that Seizure Med school currently working out real free NHS Foundation Trust interested in academic urology. And he's my jobs has shown. Hi, everyone. My name is Ali. I'm an F two currently working in neurology up at the Royal Victoria in Newcastle. Interested in the Neurosciences, namely neurosurgery and neuroradiology. I'm aqua. I went to Lester. I'm currently sorry. And, um, these are my rotations. I'm currently on cancer slash g I and I'm not very happy, but it is what it is. And similarly similarly to Alex. I want to be an academic urologist, too. Okay, so I'll be taking the first half of this talk aiming to cover in the first half an hour to 45 minutes just to recap as if you're new or if we've discussed this in previous sessions. There are important factors to consider when choosing your foundation program or SFP job, and the main ones are your location. So you know, the big bulk of this will be on the January select but sub to this. There is also, you know, the sub locations. It is a specific hospital or university. You want to work at the other ones. Are your clinical jobs as well. So this is mainly for the S a P, but which clinical jobs you have because you have one fewer. Also for the SFP, the type of academic research project you're doing other things to consider also the duration and frequency. So, as previously mentioned certainty, injuries will have to academic blocks, or some will have a 14 month block versus the Oxford that do one day a week for a year. And the other thing to consider is the order of your jobs as well, so this is mainly important for further applications. So if you're applying to specialty training, have you done, uh, specialty in psychiatry and then going to apply for psychiatry? If not, will that hinder your application? So this is mainly for the SFP, but just a quick recap in your foundation. Year one, which will see you guys will be August 2023. You will have rotations one to and rotation three. Uh, and then after that, providing Meet a ercp competencies and requirements will progress at F y to where you'll have rotation 45 and six. After that. Uh, you know, it's up to you, really? But do you apply for core training, specialty training, academic clinical fellowships or even an F three program? So where are you now? You're about here in the air. Oh, it's currently November 2022. Um, so you're coming up to your office stage really? Things to consider that the next round of applications, even though it looks like two years time is really in a year's time for us. Uh, so at the beginning of that to you already considering your applications So why is this important? Well, because the SNP most academic blocks are in rotations 45 and six. Now, if you're applying for academic gastroenterology and the applications Rotation four and you haven't done gastro or your academic block are both in rotation. Six. Is that going to hinder your application if you've not had any gastro or research experience, so those are things to consider. Other important things to consider are Click Click Aqua. Other courses you may have to do conferences you may have to attend. Are there any membership exams? MRCs, m, S, r, A, m, R, C, e p, and any post graduate degrees as well? So it's important to start looking ahead, say the new course Surgical Training portfolio. What's required. You can start factoring these into your busy rotations during warm enough to Okay, so how do you rank your programs? Well, as an example, the London SFPD scenery itself only has 106 jobs, and that makes your life a lot easier, because that's come down from about 134 last year as an example for just the foundation program. The North London dinner alone has 600 jobs and south London has 360. So what is the most efficient way to screen and rank all of these jobs? Well, we're going to show you now with a live demonstration, but just just a important note to remember Click, please. Is that this is a two step process. What I'm about to cover a Step one. And that's how you rank your jobs yourself in the most efficient way. The second part of this is uploading is to Oriole, and unfortunately, this is a manual process, and you have to click and drag each job yourself. There's no shortcut around that, but at least I can help you with the first half. Um, fine. So I will probably share screen now and just show you guys so hopefully my screen is showing now? Yep. Okay, so just to begin with, why is it important to rank your jobs well, regardless, if you're doing the SFP or foundation program, you ordinary, for instance, London here Because I applied and SFP presents all of the jobs in an XL document and it looks like this you yourself will have to filter through all this information on this thousands of cells deciding, you know, which one do you like? Which one you going to apply for which one? You're not going to rank. And all of that, most people do very manual process. And every year And so I tell you, hear lots of finding your medical students complaining or it's taking forever of color coded my spreadsheet. This is what it looks like. How what does yours look like? Well, I'm going to show you how you turn this into this, which is my actual ranking spreadsheet and for me, that's how I determined. Let me just send it to you guys. That's how I determined this to be my number one job job, which is at the hospital for year one gyn surgeon Psych, Jerry's Royal Free for F two Urology Research and A and E. And that is actually the job I'm doing now. So you know what is the most efficient way in final year when you've got finals to revise for PS PSA to revise for SFP to revise for interviews to prepare for what is the most efficient way to get this done? Essentially So I will now take you through this process. Um, and of course, we are using Microsoft Excel here. I love XL. Uh, use it for everything. Just disclaim. I'm not sponsored by Microsoft Microsoft Hook me up. Um okay, So the example going to be using is the 2023 London dinari sfp jobs bit easier this year because there are fewer jobs. This is the spray that you were given. Of course, this is the exact same. If you were to do a foundation program with 600 jobs, everything is applicable. Step one for me is to identify the columns I don't need because there's far too many cells here, so I'm just going to scroll to the right. And as you can see, there are lots of cells and not all of this information is relevant. So first of all, identify what information you need. So for me, I don't need to know that the job is in London. That is quite self explanatory. I don't need to know that this is rotation. I don't need to know that this is Hee. So for me, I've identified light gray the cells that I can remove. So for instance, all of these the best way to do it is to right click on the cells up here and just click hide that doesn't delete the contents. You can always, um, hide it later if you need further information. So just remove that out of the way to save time. I've done that and you're left with this. I just realized some columns. So for me, the important information is if it was scroll is you need to know the program preference code. Because when you go to Oriole, that's the code that corresponds to this job for me. I want to know the program title. So for the S a p. I want to know what the academic block is in. I want to know where f one is. So, for instance, which hospital I want to know the specialty of the rotation 123 I've kept the location of F two and again just the jobs of 45 and six. So, the most important cells for me, our specialty what the specialties are. But some of them will have further descriptions. So a good example of the general surgery can be upper gi. I can be colorectal can be HVB could be breast surgery could be vascular surgery. So I don't want to hide these cells because they're quite useful to know. So I'm just gonna combine them quickly. So I'm just going to insert a new cell, um, and show you the best way to do it. Okay, so I'm just inserting a cell, right click. So it's quite it's not essential to know, but for me, it's a budding surgeon. I'd like to know which surgical specialties these are. So the best way to do it is we're going to use a formula called contact. So equals contact brackets. I want to combine the text in this cell, comma the text in this cell close bracket. Now, I can just double click down here, and it's going to do that for all of the cells. And now I can hide these two. So now I know if you can, uh, what's it called? The basement basements. One for instance. I know this general surgery. This one is general surgery subspecialty, colorectal, etcetera. So that's fine. So I'm just going to go ahead and quickly do this for the same for the other cells. And this is a live demonstration, so there will be some millions, but Okay, so from this, you can already see that. You know, we filter down all of the important information from a massive spreadsheet. And again, we're just tidying up as we go along, because summaries are the key. Yeah, so nearly done. Just in placement five now. And, of course, this stuff is entirely optional because you can just admit this. And just based on general surgery, if you're not too fast. And so within a couple of minutes, we've filtered this down into all the essential information, uh, shown here. So what's the next thing we'd like to do? So, for instance, will base it on myself. So I'm interested in urology. Um, So I want to know which jobs or which rotations in London have a urology job. And there's very few for the academic program, actually. So what I'm gonna do is going to select all of the cells. Um, and I'm just going to search for urology. Really? Control, find. So the reason I have to do this is because if you search for neurology, actually comes up with neurology as well because the text is within this word. So it's very, very difficult. So has shown here it's picking up neurology with urology as well. So I just want to quickly highlight these, um, if possible. Now, where is it? And again, you could be doing this with any specialty you want. So this is the only manual step I have to do because unfortunately picks up neurology as well. Just mentioned it's an eight x 96 I'm not seeing it. The role, though they're all, like, next to each other. Okay, so, um, one is you see, l 11 placement six u c l uh, And then the other one, they're all yeah, they're all, like, next to each other. That sounds about right, because there's only three this year, so actually four next year. That's that's quite good. Fine. So that's the only manual step, because you want to get picked up. So the next step is voluntary optional. Um, it just helps to color code things. So I'm going to highlight these cells because they contain the jobs. Conditional formatting is a very useful tool. Um, so we're going to select highlight cell rules text that contains so for me as someone who wants to do surgery? Uh, I'm going to set this because it stopped, I think Has it stopped sharing? Like it's not stop sharing. But it froze too many cells now. Yes, that's good. Fine. So just to recap, I'm going to select the jobs and just a color code. A few things. So you're going to conditional format highlight sales text that contains I want to set this to green, because for me, they're good things. So I'm going to select anything that contains surgery and, like, flash up is a good thing. And I'm going to do another role for me. Surgery? I don't mind obstetric. So anything, um, obstetric. I will include. It's green. We've done neurology manually. And so that flags up for me. There are certain specialties I don't really I'd like to avoid, if possible, so we'll set those to read. So, unfortunately, neurology is one of them, but that will flag up the yellow urology. So we're going to leave this for now. Um, other things are psychiatry. Um, not a massive fun. Unfortunately, such as genetics. So we're going to go for psychiatry. It's not. My job does have psychiatry. It's a compromise, but we'll explain why I ended up choosing that job. Um, are there any other things I dislike? I think that's mainly what I did. Okay, so I have a very, very quick glance. You can see we've already broken it down. You roughly know which one's good. Which ones are bad. Um, so at a very, very brief glance, I can see maybe a few jobs that I'd like to avoid at all costs, So any of that don't have. So, for instance, I can see straight away. This is a very low priority job for me. There is no surgery involved. And that's before we even done any further coding. So now we're going to insert a few columns, and this is where the magic begins. So let me just reduce the width of this big. While Alex is doing that, I think it's important that, you know, we were discussing this beforehand. Only Aqua and Alex had to deal with this. I only ranked about 20 jobs for my entire like foundation and we'll specialty foundation program applications. This is complete magic to me that I'm watching. For the first time, I did something very similar to Alex. And I also did, like, heavily Factive location. And I came up with, like, my own little formula, so very similar. Just anything to make the process easier. Okay, so I will try and press ahead. Um, so for me, important things include So this is where I now score the jobs, and that's how you rank them. So everything so far has been visual what looks at a glance as a good or bad job. But now, how do we quantitatively score them? So as someone who wants to do surgery specifically, urology, I want to score jobs that have surgery, So I'm just going to call it surgery. I'm going to call this neurology year old, and I'm going to call this obstetric. Just because urology tends to not be included in general surgery and obstetrics tend to be its own things. The surgery would kind of catch everything else. So the form that I'm going to use here is equals. We're going to use the counter if formula bracket. So I want to count a cell and you want to drive across to where it's located. Want to count in the cell in this range comma quotation marks as to risk it contains surgery close bracket. So the asterisk. It's basically like a free text on either side. So if it was surgery, general surgery, academic surgery, that would count so loosely, I'm going to score if it has that. Likewise, I'm going to do the exact same formula coffee and face to urology. But I'm going to change that to urology. Uh, and I'm going to remove the asterisk for urology just because urologist urology, there's no it's a box around that. And my quiet I'm going to do something for what's the trick? Keeping the the asterisks because it could be upset tricks on its own obstetric, obstetrics, obstetrics and gynecology. So straightaway I'm going to create this. So it's surgery surgery, so I'm going to score some of this. So here are some. So now I'm going to drag this and double click click on it, and that's gonna sort some. Something's up straight away. We can see some good jobs, so something's clearly gone wrong here because it's 47. I know why, because we hit the cells and it's counting the content, so I may have to delete that on the head. So placement. One testament to okay, that was an oversight. I just need to fix this quickly. Uh, so we'll delete. Okay, Slight issue here. So I'm going to have to delete these because that was a massive oversight specialty to okay, as with all live demonstrations, with nothing prepared beforehand, things obviously going wrong. So I just need to fix that quickly, that's for sure. Five. I apologize for that. Also, be just troubleshooting this a nice, especially serious questions. Okay, so I think that's fixed. This is not included in the Okay, So the reason this column is not lighting up is because the former didn't apply to just now. But that's not an issue. So if we go back to here, that's not fixed. We can see we scored jobs. So, for instance, I now know that this job has scored zero in terms of surgery because there are no surgical jobs. This job for me has a score of two because it has to surgical jobs, t e N o, and general surgery. And that's just a very quick way to do that. So now we've said that's applicable to scoring any job based on any specialty you want. You can change that to psychiatry. You could change that to cardiology. You can assign them to any scores. So this is how you score jobs? Um, by the specialty you want. So the next thing I'm going to do is a score based on location or order of your jobs. So for me, I know that surgical applications will be in rotation four. So if I want to apply for surgery course surgical training and I have not had surgery in the first four rotations, I think that's a disadvantage. So for me, I'm going to score a job if it has a surgical placement within the first four. So I just name that's a surgery one support. Really? So what's the formula we're going to do is we're going to use some formula, and we're going to count, if again. And these jobs x, they contain surgery, urology or obstetrician construction. Close bracket. It was something up when we're counting. If this range has either surgery, urology or obstetric, essentially, hopefully that works. No, it doesn't. Because I've got one too many brackets to I'm reading books. Got it. Okay, so it's equal some we're going to do. If I'm going to do this range and we're gonna do comma, I'm going to do poorly brackets instead of a normal bracket. I'm going to do surgery, urology, and we're going to do a prostate check. That's how you got this can. And if that's not working, is I'm not sure if it's not working, equals. Can't if that shit what? I don't see why it's not working. Oh, geez. And that's that should work. I will show you why. Because in this one and here we have used the exact same formula across the cells and in my previous specially, it did work, and that would give us a score essentially. So I'm not sure why that's not working. Apologize for that, Alex. For the interest of time to, you know, just show your finish. One. Yes, we can do. That's a good idea, Aqua. So in my finished one with the exact same formula, which I'm not sure why it's not working in the surgery in the 1 to 4 rotation, use an exact same formula. You can score if there is a surgical job in jobs 1 to 4 and So here we can see this job has scored two because there is general surgery. Uh, rotation one in urology is rotating rotation, too. This job has a surgical 1 to 4 score of one because there is obstruction gynecology in four and that's it. Then, after that, I'm going back to the SFP application pathway for a CF. Remember that the majority of academic jobs are in 45 and six. And again, if you're going to apply for a CF, it's beneficial to have the academic block in 4 to 5. So you've had some research experience? Uh, so again, we use this very similar formula to say score. If the job academic block is in 4 to 5 and again here, you can see all of these jobs have the academic block in four or five shown by the yellow here and then down here, we can see some jobs where it's called zero, because actually, they're in the sixth block here on the right. Um, for me, that's so important, Actually, that I scored if the job was in the final rotation is one, and that's just the inverse formula. So here, there in 4 to 5, and here it's in one. And then this is the grand total for the job, and the formula I've used is, uh, the total. So add up the surgical jobs. If there is surgery, urology or statues for me, I'm going to add, if the academic blockers in 45 a surgical block in 1 to 4. And if there is an economic block and 45 I'm going to actually going to subtract the point if there's an economic block in six, just because that's my priority, Uh and then after that, you end up with a score shown here and then once you get a score, all you need to do is add a filter. So just click at the top of any of these. Go up here for a filter and sort of see what they say. And then you just reorder them. Um, and then from there you can create subheadings. So for me, because I'm based in north London, I thought east of London would be quite far for me to commute. So even though this job here scored very highly score of five, it has general surgery and gave me a good economic block. I thought that lower just because of the distance. For me personally, these were the wrong academic block. So again some interesting jobs with a score of two for me. But I thought that was important enough to rank them lower. Unfortunately for Ali, I ran very low, very low down on my list. Any neurology jobs? Just because I didn't think I would enjoy them as much as someone else who would. So for me, even though these had a score of three, that's quite interesting Tea. You know, general surgery, good academic block. It wasn't for me. And here these are the absolute lowest for me because they had no surgery. So it would be quite pointless to do them, In my honest opinion, for me that these were ranked very lonely because just because I'm based in North London again, this is a brilliant job for me. Has a t e n o ob gyn gave me a good academic block, but unfortunately, wrong location. And unfortunately sorry. It's just a bit too far for me. So, you know, again, literally my job. I know which one is that? I am. I disagree with me here. 13133. That's my job. So, actually, you know this job was actually the bottom of my Oriole list. But, you know, that was my second another month. So it's entirely based on what's important to you. So what's important to me is not necessarily important to Aqua. And what, you know, bottom of my list is actually quite important. Aqua These take all of the boxes, so you know it's all about you and how you rank them. Um, so that's how I objectively scored them. There are, you know, all sorts of factors you can add in. I could have added negative points for psychiatry. I could have added in, you know, additional points for other specialties. And then, in terms of deciding on the final job, it's all about what's important to you. So again, objectively, the score is very highly for me. Subjectively, psychiatry is my next job. I'm not going to enjoy it, but on the balance of what I want to do, it's got the good rotations. You know, I have to compromise somewhere, and for me, this was a job I was willing to take, whereas, you know, jobs of neurology. They're probably better than psychiatry, but I don't think I would have enjoyed them as much. So rank them lower. Um, so that's a brief summary of how you can score your jobs and very quickly rank them. So you know, you only have to do the formulas. Once double click, it filters all through and then just add a filter. And you instantly got all of your jobs ranked without having to manually go through which ones have urology. Which ones have surgery? So that's a very quick tour of how I did it last. The obviously there's many ways to do it, but I hope that was of use to some of you and apologies for the hiccups. With the formulas there, I realized I just watched a man make a spreadsheet for 30 solid minutes, and it was actually really interesting. So just mine was pretty much exactly the same. Except I factored in location, which is why our so UCLA was obviously my number one. Then the second was, well, sorry then. So on and so forth. Yeah, so just briefly going back to, you know, location as well. So just walk through this is what I started with last year. Played some colors? No, not many forms yet a few more formulas. And then I just broke them down by London University. So for me, you know UCLA rank them within each imperial king screen. Mary ST Georges for me, Bright and Sussex in the university. Setting up a bit too far. That's why they're red. And then once you subdivide them, that's how I just broke them down into, You know, these headings, but obviously can just do it all at once with all of these factors that we've mentioned in the Power point taken into account. So I'll hand back to Italy now. Sounds good. Thank you, Alex. Yeah, thanks, Alex. That was someone who kind of didn't go through that process. That was actually really interesting when you have to be systematic in that way. Um, so now me and Aqua are going to take you through the kind of last maybe 15, 20 minutes or so. Um, this is basically about what happens at the other end. So you've done all of your ranking and those same principles apply exactly the same for SFP rankings as they do for foundation program rankings. The process is exactly the same. Um, the thing that you need is that spreadsheet with all the post program codes on it, which you'll get, uh, you can get from the delivery. But anyway, when it comes to offers day, uh, this is when when your priorities are released. So we're talking about the SFP here basically because it's coming soon. So on the Results Day, and there's a slide that has all of the important dates on it in a minute, there are three possible things that you can do. You get offered a single job from potentially each of the academic units that you've applied to. Uh, and your three choices are that you can accept the job you can accept with upgrades or you can reject. And those are the three things that you can do. Um, I think it was Frank earlier in the comments, and the chat said he made a comment about You only have 48 hours to accept or reject a job, and that's absolutely correct. So to understand why all of this is important, we need to go through what each of these choices actually does in oriole to your application before we do that. These are the key dates, and this is just the SFP. This slide doesn't refer to any part of the normal foundation program. So interestingly, it seems that there are four rounds of offers Time tabled. Uh, it was three, I think, in the cycle when I applied in 2021 it was three for us. I think as well, Alex. Right, I think. Oh, um but anyway, there's four rounds that are listed in the U. K F P O documents, so I'm assuming that this is correct. 11th of January is when the first offers come out and the first time when you you could be seeing a job offer in in your pocket and then a week later, 18th, 20th, Another week later, Uh, the 25th and 27th and then the final round between the first and the third of February with an additional clearing round. Uh, at the end of that week, it looks like which is down to the individual academic units of application, and these are what we call the Cascades. So after that first round, where all of the jobs come out on the 11th of January, people will make one of those three choices they will either except reject or except with upgrades, the job that they were offered. And then this process, called the Cascade begins, which is an algorithmic sorting process where everyone has submitted their rankings and everyone has a score based on their interviews and their portfolio. And it's just essentially a giant sorting automatic algorithm that assigns people jobs based on their preferences and their score. So the person with the highest score gets their top choice of job in the Diener E. In the academic unit, the next person. So the second highest scoring person gets their highest preference unoccupied slot. So if the top two people have the same top choice job, the person that scores the highest will get that top choice job. It then filters down to the second person, and the algorithm will go. Oh, well, they're top job is occupied because this other person had the highest score, so it will then go to the second preference for the highest scoring cancer, and then it just rinses and repeats until all job slots have been have been allocated and then it happens again during the next Cascade, which is between the 18th 20th of January. So any jobs to the left will be offered to another round of people and then again a week later and again. And this continues until all of the jobs have been accepted, basically. So to understand what that means on the next slide, the first and most obvious thing that you can do is accept. And most of us know what this means. If you accept a job, you are locking in that job for yourself, and this does a few really important things. The first thing that it does, uh, which have actually put second in the list here, is that it locks it in for you, and it cannot be taken away from you. Assuming you don't do anything catastrophically bad between then and starting your job in August, that's your job. The only couple of situations where that could potentially change would be something like failing finals or, for some other reason, being able to start working as a doctor. Um, you obviously couldn't do that post, but when you accept the job, it pulls you out of the entire selection process. So you're gone from the U K f p o at that point, when you when you select a job. Um, the other thing that that obviously means is that you are removed from foundation program selection as well. By occupying an S F P post, you therefore cannot occupy a normal foundation post because you've already got an assigned job. And it also means that you get your job in advance of the S J T results coming out. So your S J T score will have no effect on your foundation program job from here on, because you've already got a job. The SFP jobs are not contingent on an S F P score. They are actually a a way to bypass uh, the effects of the sgot. Yeah, like you need to get a minimum school. You can't. You have to meet a certain like, I guess, Mark to the point where you avoid, um, kind of being fitness to practice practice. Like if you pick abominably really bad choices, you'll be questioned. And as long as you avoid that, it's fine. That's what I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Just, uh, echo that. Basically, if you apply for the S A p a lot after your Estrace. As long as you don't hear an email saying you've been invited to a meeting of any sort, you know, you're fine. So that's basically it. Yeah, and it actually says on the u K f p o. I'm going to see if I can link it in the chat. Actually, this is the high level timeline from, uh, from the u K f p o. And it actually tells you when those reviews are, which looked to be at the beginning of March. So obviously you're you'll hear your SFP results long before then. But if you then don't hear anything around that time, that's when you know you're safe. Um, so that's it. That's what accepting does. It's It's really as simple as as accepting the job. Congratulations. If you can do that, you've got a job. Um, the second option that you will have, uh, is this thing called, except with upgrades. Now it's actually possible to be in a situation where you don't have this choice. And this was the situation that I was in. Um, because what this means is it's the same. It's exactly the same as accepting. But it means that if you were offered, let's say you rank 50 jobs or something in a big academic unit. And in the first round you get offered your 20th. You know, your 20th preference job. So something towards the middle of the list. And what that means is that in those further cascades in those further selection rounds, you're accepting your 20th job, so something that you maybe feel kind of middling about you're locking it in. But if for any particular reason a job higher up in your preference, sing so maybe your 19th preference job, which you prefer slightly. Or better yet, something like your fifth or your six, or maybe even your first becomes available. Then you will climb. You will be allocated that job instead, and your job that you've been offered and accepted with upgrades then becomes available to someone else in the next cascade. And this is kind of how it works. Obviously, this can't happen in the final round because you leave your job open by by moving up the list, but it's just a way of potentially getting closer. But before, before we go on to rejection slightly. That really key thing, though, is accepting with upgrades is not a guarantee that you will be upgraded. You've You're still locking in that job. Um, so So, Ellen, you just asked the really important question there, which is No, You cannot evaluate the choice that you might be upgraded to if you select, except with upgrades. You are committing to be upgraded by the algorithm if a job becomes available and we'll talk about this in a in a minute. So I guess consequently as well. Um, if you've accepted with upgrades and for some reason, that job is now gone, like, for example, like the better job is not available. Um, but you were locking yourself into the job that you are currently presented, so it's kind of like a normal except like, Sorry, it's not your best. It's not your top job. Oh, sorry. My bad. Another guy has already taken it. Sorry. You're locking yourself with that one. Yes. So? So don't accept with upgrades on a job that you don't want in the hopes that you will be upgraded because it's not a you've got no way of knowing. Basically the only thing you will know is your score relative to everyone else. But you don't know what anyone else's scores are. So it's a It's a gamble, really. The last option is reject and this is exactly what it sounds like. You are rejecting a job. However, this also has major consequences because not only are you rejecting that particular job, but you are also rejecting any future jobs from that academic unit of application. So it's not a case of I'm rejecting this job and I will hold out till the next round and carry forward my really good score. It's I do not want this job and I do not want any other jobs in this academic unit you. So if this happens in the first round, say you got offered a job because you've got a really good score and then you reject it, you are out of that academic unit of application. Now we've got a flow diagram to show you, but it's really important to know that this has no effect on your If you've applied to to academic units, it has no effect on your other application, and they can't see that you've done it. Um, But if you've only applied to one uh, sfp Yeah, I was brought up the diagram here. Basically, if you've got if you're still in the game for your other SFP application and you have not yet been rejected or not allocated a job, then you stay in the game for your other one. You are still eligible for cascades. If it's your only remaining open application or you're in the final round and you're not offered a job or you reject a job at any point you filter down this priority diagram. So after the S F P comes the foundation priority program, so if you've chosen to apply for one of those jobs, you will then enter selection for the F p P, which I think does use the S J. T. Yeah, it uses vessel and sgpt. Yeah, and then after that, you then if you obviously if you don't apply for an f p p, you'll just drop straight down to the foundation program. If you had applied for a foundation priority post, then the algorithm start sorting all of those once the S FPs done, because what the algorithm is trying to do is remove as many people as possible from the foundation program selection before it gets there. Because that's the last step. So anyone that gets an S f p is pulled out and anyone that gets the foundation priority program is pulled out. Uh, I've just seen a question from Anna. Yes, they are. They're national. So? So I think Frank mentioned something about this earlier, didn't he? He was saying kind of what happens? The Cascades all happened at the same time. Yeah. So, for example, uh, in that case, that's the best case scenario, I guess, because then you have a choice. So say, for example, you apply for both London and Cambridge, and you got both offers on 11th of Jan, however, and the London one wasn't the dream job. It was like your 10th or 11th job. Where's your Cambridge? One was your first or second. Obviously, you would go with the second with your Cambridge one. But then, if you've accepted it, you've accepted the Cambridge one. You were automatically rejecting the London rejecting your right to be entered into the foundation program or the foundation priority program. You were literally kicked out of it. You were fixed to that Cambridge job? Yeah, And what? That obviously also doesn't give you the chance to do. And I think this is what Frank was asking is you can't hold out for the further London Cascades. So by receiving two choices, you're effectively forced into a situation where you will be accepting one and rejecting the other. And any future jobs that may be offered in that other Diener E or you could reject both, which is obviously something that you could do and think. Actually, I've got a good guess. I'll and I'm going to hope that I've done well on the S J T. And I might have a normal foundation program job that I really like that will serve me better than the SFP. And that's okay to um but that's a That's a gamble at this particular point in time because you don't know what your s J T score is. Yeah, so it's like a recap. Um, sfp, let's say London, Cambridge, London. You are given, you know, job number 20 as you're You know, when you first offer however, you don't really like it, you accidentally reject it. But you think that you're rejecting. You know that job when you've actually just rejected the entire Diener E? So now that's gone. So even if the job, for example, job number one was available but because you've rejected it, you can never, ever, ever go back to it. Unfortunately, yeah, it's you can you can probably see by the way the Cascades work. It's got to be a You're always moving forward in the selection process. You can't. The algorithm doesn't stand still. You've got to make a choice. Yes or no. You can't ever hold. That's the because otherwise it wouldn't work, obviously, because people would just hold until an ideal job became available, which doesn't work. And bear in mind that London, Cambridge, Oxford, for example you will probably never, ever get, except with upgrades. You will probably get the first cascade. And by second Cascade, 90% of the jobs will be gone already. So don't hold out. Yeah, just as a heads up. What was I going to say? But But I would say do like you can Don't be massively discouraged until all of the Cascades have been because I know I know people who got a job that they actually really wanted in the final round. Like so I was in the situation where I got my I got my top choice of job in the first round, so I couldn't accept with upgrades I could only accept. Whereas I know people that are holding out until the very, very last selection round, But then they actually got a job that they were quite happy with. So don't Don't be discouraged so effectively, Ellen, the waiting list is the Cascade system. Effectively isn't only? Yeah, clearing. Yeah, but clearing again. Sfp jobs. Very unlikely. If anything, priority programs might be on declaring thing, but I don't think sfp would be. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure it does happen. Like, you know, life happens. Things will happen if you miss the 48 hour deadline. Ellen, it automatically rejects you. Do not do that. And then that gave me a heart attack. Do not do that. Yeah, it's so Oriel does it automatically for you. The best thing to do is to accept within the first day, just like when it hits you. It's like, Wow, it hasn't really happened to take a few hours like process it and then like, read everything carefully like, Is it actually this job? Are you reading it wrong? The reputations And then like when you actually click the button and you get a notification like you have withdrawn from the foundation program. And then when I freaked out and I texted, I was like, What's happening? I happened to be too Alex. We were just freaking out. So just compose yourself and don't rush it, but don't leave it too late. It's the most important thing. Yeah, I I saw that someone I can't remember what specialty, But someone this year, I think was offered in a CF. And they missed the deadline, um, on Oriole to accept it. What were they doing for 14? This can't have been this year because they've It was maybe last year. But I've heard about an instance where this happened. Someone was offered like that, the a CF that they worked really hard for, and then it they didn't get an email or something, so they didn't know the offer had come out. And then it just auto rejected. Sorry, Ellen, Just saying yes. I'm sorry, but people would be dying for that position. That urine Ellen. What a fortunate. I'm joking. I'm joking, Obviously, Yes. As I said, it is judgment. But remember, you are in such a fortunate position because that is your job. And you don't need to worry about anything for two years. Pretty much, right? What? I'm sorry, Alex. So if I just quickly show a screen to show a little I've got there's a very good example of this. Um, let me check screen and let me just highlight a few things here. It's a very good example of this island is that some of the programs are one of one and some SFP programs. There is actually two or three of them. They're just order. So I'll just highlight one to you very quickly Is a very good example. So interesting for our year. The only places offering a urology job. We're actually at UCL. Uh, so if we highlight these, let me find them. That's highlight these three jobs. So let's get rid of all the others. Just give me 10 seconds. Person. Lately. Okay, so if we just focus on these three jobs, we can see that the exact same more or less. Uh, they've got psychiatry they've got urology, Uh, got a and economic block here, and there is a bit different. So T e n o uh, one's got and then Johnny, but they're largely the same. So, for instance, it's really up to you. If you're dead set on urology and you know you're going to apply for urology, then maybe this job and this job are suitable. But this job isn't itself bad. Because, you know, having urology experience as your spinal rotation is not going to inhibit you from applying. You can always talk about how it's upcoming. You've done your taste of weak neurology. That's not an issue. Likewise, this is the only one that here has the academic block in four. The other two have it in, uh, in rotation six. So that doesn't mean that you can apply for in a CF. If you're doing research on the side, you've got evidence of research experience that's not going to inhibit you. Uh, so to summarize, it's really judgment call and what's important to you and what you want to do in the future. Uh, just because you're in the wrong order doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't. You still get the experience. Uh, especially you're taking a year out after to maybe do an F three. It means nothing at all. You'll have done it as well. Yeah, Ellen, that's exactly right. I I strongly agree with you. You're outnumbered here. Shut up. It's a very skewed, uh, panel we've got here. We we know that urology is very under represented and very unpopular. So the fact you've got two of us who like it is very, very skewed. I feel like like speaking to my colleagues about it. It's one of those specialties that, like this, is just my dim view of urology from someone who, like isn't massively exposed to It is it's one of those specialties that is not considered massively sort of sexy or cool in medical school. But then when people start working and you know, you get to my stage where specialty applications open like next week, and you're actually thinking about what you want your life to be like and what your career urology, I think, becomes really popular at that stage because because it's a really good choice for probably most people who want to be surgeons. Everybody's like, Oh my God, you want to be a surgeon, know? And I'm like, Yeah, I want the urology and they're like, Okay, that's perfect. Good choice. Good choice. And I was like, Thanks, like nobody questions my choice in that because of the work life balance aspect. Yeah, yeah. I think the key aspects of theology, I think that will agree is it's got really good work off balance. There are very few emergencies. Technologically, it's very advanced. You know, most surgeries are done robotically. There are very few other specialties that the robotics, because it's robotics. You can sit down as well. Uh, there's a lot of academic exposure, and I think nearly everyone will grow up. We've never met a meteorologist. They've all been really nice. Um, yes, what right. Whereas I think things like neurosurgery transplant, cardiothoracic like they go almost exactly the other way where in medical school, there really cool, really sexy, like everyone wants to do them. But then you graduate. You start thinking about your life and you're actually doing some serious planning, and it's really hard to get into their all really mean. They have a terrible work life balance. And there are no consultant jobs. So it's it's that I think it's very rapidly, like whittles down around F two to F three. That's when people most people actually like, you know, on paper, this is just a really bad idea. Definitely. Listen to yourself. Use your two brain cells. Um, uh, Amanda and Ellen, you should go Urology, man and everything is evidence based everything Pretty much right, Alex, Like to the dark side would be radiology, actually True? Yeah. Um, the ent is an excellent choice. Neurology, like everyone is like, Oh, like balance. Oh, and breast. Yes, no one will argue with the anti. It's clearly a great gig. Amanda. You're doing so well. She's got a good dentistry for sure, though true, there's something like more than half of people who go down the max fax pathway. Just go back to dentistry. Bad medicine. It makes sense. Um, and just do it, you get So anyway, um, but yeah, all all of this stuff is to come. And you know, you guys, you guys are nearly there. And when you when you become a foundation doctor, I think it becomes much more about what's realistic and what's going to work. for you And what you actually one from life? I think that's fair, isn't it? And because you're actually doing the job, it's It's like, Is this going to be me in 20 years? Whatever. Um, but I think, uh, that's the, uh, basically, the the bulk of this talk about ranking. I mean, we'll we'll happily hang around if people want to talk specialties for a little bit. Always welcome. So we love to do it. But if anyone's got any questions about the stuff we've talked about today in terms of ranking or accepting or not accepting jobs, please do let us know. Um, hang around for a few more minutes. Yeah, Yeah. Let's see if there's any more questions. Okay. I didn't know that. Amanda. Yeah. Thank you. To everyone who's been attending our sessions is all the start at the beginning. This is our eight session. In fact, the last one actually, of this eight week, eight part series. So you're actually quite sad to say goodbye? Um, but this is all on demand to catch up as well here and medal and on all these YouTube channel. Um, so you know, if there are any small details that you can miss. You can always re watch those, um and yeah, I We hope you've found something useful during these eight weeks, and any feedback would be much appreciated. It's helped us to improve each week sessions. Um, and if you would like some bonus extra sessions if even if any one of the two of us could put them on, um I mean, I'm still a neurology s h o for the next month. I'm not doing very much. I'm going to be a neurology. H o U m. Next month, you got, uh, Nero job stroke. Hello? Yeah, you dumb? I'm sorry. Not the same as near. Oh, it's basically the same to me. It's all. It's all the brain. Yeah, Unfortunately, I'm going to psychiatry next. So it's all the brain you guys both doing, brain. I'm academic. So lucky you. Yeah, I'm doing NeuroOncology. So we're all brain. Yeah. Good for you. You're going to note out for everything. Um, but yeah, if you have any more questions, guys, please. And, um, you have I think Well, let me just share our Twitter handles again. I guess we could just have a big open zoom call or something. Oh, yeah. Final points, right? I guess. The final point. Yes, I think everyone still here. I think so, Yeah. Everyone is still here. I think it was implied by what we said, basically, But just just to be doubly sure, the single most important piece of advice that I received during this process and maybe the same for these guys as well I'll let them see what they think. But only only preference jobs that you would be willing to accept and to work in for two years. You? If there are 20 jobs available in a in an academic unit, you don't have to rank all 20. You can rank one. You can rank five. You can rank 20 you can rank zero. But that would be You shouldn't have applied to a dinner if you're going to rank zero jobs. Um, but the situation that you absolutely must avoid at all costs is in the first round being offered a job that you do not want. Because if that happens, if you don't want it, you will. You will have to reject it. Which stops you from getting any of the other jobs on your list that you actually might want. Um, because what we said, rejection is not just rejecting the job, but it's rejecting the academic unit, the Diener E. So if if you rank well for each job you rank for each individual job, you you kind of have to assume that that is the one that will appear on offers day because it has as good a chance as any of them as being the one that appears. It's a bit. What's that game with the boxes where they open the boxes? Deal or no deal? Yes, it's a bit like that. You will get a box and you have no idea what's going to be in it. Okay, you know, and now that Thank you, Ollie. But I think these are our Twitter handles. Please do messages for questions at all. And I think a couple of at least I know I'm sure all of us were doing more interviews randomly. When we have free time, it's fine. Yeah, it's It's challenging because obviously everyone wants more interviews around this time, but we'll try. Yes, we will try a few messages. Yeah, that's pretty much well No, thank you guys so much. And this is really, really sad because this is our last session. But thank you. Yeah, if anything, we can do at work. If there's demand for it, we don't mind doing something else. And, uh, good luck to everyone with your application. Really good luck, regardless of your SFP or f p or F P p, or whatever it is best of luck to everyone with finals and with every exam is here as well. What's what's really nice about all of this is that medicine is a tiny world and a lot like it's almost certain that at least one or two of us, if not more, that are in the cold. Just tonight we'll end up working together at some point as colleagues, because that's how it is. Yeah, there's not that many doctors. There's only 8000 medical student teacher. Yeah, and if you think how few hospitals are actually are, especially for those of you sfp people tend to want to do more tertiary specialties, I would guess, on average, Um, it's, uh, the odds are overwhelmingly likely that you know Alex or Aqua could be your Reg if any of you want to do urology. It will probably happen. Um, or you'll find yourself referring to them at some point. Aqua, I'm sorry. I've got a difficult catheter. Can you please do it? Exactly. And And if you call me, if I have managed to get a neurosurgery number, I will just not answer. As as is the neurosurgical way it will be like, Can you refer a patient? Reject a patient? Org. Sorry. Don't care about it. Sorry. No acute neurosurgical input. Thank you, guys. I think we'll stop it there. Yeah. All right. Take care of everybody. Good luck. Bye bye.