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Ok. Um First of, first of all, comment on the chat that you can hear me. Ok? And then we'll get started. Oh, perfect. There's a wee bit of echo, but hopefully Liz's uh Liz's chat will be better. Um Do you want to test your mic and we'll see and make sure that it's working? Ok. Oh, it's stopped now. Fab. Ok. Right. We'll just get started. I'll hand over to Liz and uh out in the email. Ok. No problem. I hand over to Liz. Ok. So good evening everyone. Um I'm one of the S TT S up in Dundee as Caitlin's just said, um, it's, I've basically been asked just to speak to you guys about sort of the best way to sort of apply and how to boost your application into sort of applying for Scotland and also reasons why you should apply to Scotland because it is great and it's really not publicized, especially down south. You may have gathered, I am English, but I did study up in Aberdeen. Um and I discovered how great it was up here and I am very keen to share it to everyone because honestly, it's brilliant up here. Ok. Please do write any questions you've got in the chat. We'll try and answer them as we go along. Um, but if not just ask them at the end and we can go from there. All right. So basically going to talk about orthopedic training in Scotland. A bit of background on me the opportunities you've got in the NBC HB. Any opportunities you've got in foundation yet, how to keep track of your progress, er, demonstrating commitment into surgery, publications, teaching and then a bit on the interviews and it's all things. I wish, I sort of knew when I was applying because you'll soon see it didn't happen first time round. Ok. So orthopedic training in Scotland. Well, it, it is one of the most prestigious training programs. It's got an outstanding international reputation. The main reason is because we have a one run through training. So from ST one, you've got a scalpel in your hand, you're operating on patients and you're on call, you're doing nights by yourself. It's a steep learning curve but it's absolutely great. And the more you do, the more your confidence builds and the log books you get at the end of the year are pretty cool. And especially compared to other deaneries across the UK. It is also apprenticeship method and sort of, that's the model of training in Scotland. You're attached to a boss for six months and you stay with that boss and you basically just learn the craft from your consultant. There are a diverse range of opportunities. We've got cities, we've got the highlands, we've got remote and rural. There's all these different things you can do in orthopedics and in life as well because it's not just about work and there's always things you can do. We also have regional and collaborative teaching. We have the regular Scots and stops meetings which always end with a pretty good knees up and a nice dinner. And I can fully recommend that sort of collegiate approach that we have in Scotland. And also each d has links with universities. And again, our universities are pretty good up here and it's really good for forming research collaboration and getting your teaching um experience and just encouraging others to get into orthopedics. So I think it is absolutely great here and also the scenery is absolutely stunning. And this is a photo I took last weekend after the floods and just of things that you can see up here if you haven't visited can fully recommend it. Ok. So here's a little bit about me. So I sort of run the long route into both medicine and orthopedic training. But I think that's made it more interesting and much more fun. To be honest. Originally, I was going to be a barrister, but then I realized I'd be a shocking barrister. So then applied to do medicine in Aberdeen and that was in 2012, graduated in 2018, I fell in love with orthopedics all the way through medical school and I kept trying to find other ways of other things I could do because I knew how competitive I was. Nothing lived up to sort of the excitement I got when I, I saw anything orthopedic related. So, Fy one was done up in NHS Highland. So that was in Inverness Eeg Hospital and Fy two was done back in NHS Grampian, I did apply to orthopedics straight out of Fy two because I was told you've got nothing to lose. Your CV is great. Even though I never thought it was that great. Somehow I ranked 10th. There was unfortunately nine jobs and so I was a bit miffed. That was one post out. I was offered a call number in Yorkshire. So inter and orthopedics, but I was so determined to stay in Scotland. I thought I'm going to risk it, take a gamble. So actually at the interview, it was face to face back in 2020. This was pre COVID and one of the guys on the admission panel was in Tayside and two of my senior registrars when I was an Fy one worked in Tayside, they both said come to NHS Tayside be a fellow here. We can boost your CV and we can help you try and get in. So that's what I did came down as a clinical fellow to Dundee. That was between 2020 2021. Again, I tried to boost my CV, as much as I could applied. Unfortunately, didn't get an offer. But again, Yorkshire wanted me to go back and do trauma and orthopedics. But I thought, you know what, I'm going to give it one last shot. So I'd formed a good sort of working relationship within Nine Wells Hospital. Everyone was getting used to me. I was getting used to the hospital, the computer systems actually how to do the job. Because as a fellow, you are working as an ST one. And I was doing nights by myself reducing joints and all sorts of fun things and I was starting to operate. So we had a discussion um with the consultants and because there is an 18 month limit on the amount of experience you can have in orthopedics, I was then offered a job as a teaching fellow which was 50% clinical, 50% teaching. This year. That year I learnt so much both practically and academically. And it was really rewarding actually sort of taking over the curriculum in Dundee for orthopedics and doing regular teaching sessions. That was the year I ranked first in trauma orthopedics. And I think it is because of all the other experience that I'd managed to gain throughout my training. And for some reason, I also thought I'd end up unemployed and I applied for radiology AC C and core because my CV had been boosted so much with that extra time, I was offered all of them and again, I declined them. So, since August 2022 I've been in NHS Tayside as a registrar. Absolutely love it and wouldn't change anything for the world. And I'm actually glad it took me a couple of extra years to get in. And so if at first you don't succeed, if it's for, you just do not give up. Ok, that's one of the biggest messages I can give you so opportunities during med school. And so obviously med school elective. So I went over to Auckland City Hospital, did an a week placement in trauma and orthopedics. I did do a bit of operating there, just tiny little minor procedures like incision and drainage of an abscess. And that was great fun. And I did a project over there about navigation with knee replacements, did quite a few medical school projects because I went around told everyone how much I love orthopedics, how much I was keen on it. And I ended up doing an audit and secondary surveys in pediatric trauma in NHS Grampian. I kept that throughout my training up until fy two until I moved down to Tayside. And the reason I've got a picture of a little bear here is that's actually a prize from the college after presenting it at their audit symposium. And they seem to be quite impressed by it. And it was awarded the best presentation in trauma orthopedics So again, that added to the CV. But I was really enjoying what I was doing and it was a worthwhile project. Obviously, I was a member of the Surgical Society up in Aberdeen. It's the Oxton Society and I joined the B A and the College of Surgeons in Edinburgh as an affiliate member. You get lots of information in your email, you get a jazzy little newsletter sort of every six months or so. And it is interesting just to read and just get that extra information about the career. So foundation year opportunities. So I tried to them very broad. Um, fy one, I applied for gen me trauma and orthopedics and gen gen surge. Um I was actually lucky that I got the ones that I wanted. Um general surgery I thought was good because obviously mrcs, you need to know how to examine a diabetic foot and all of that jazz. Um And also it is good to examine acute abdomens and there was hints of trauma during that job, trauma orthopedics for obvious reasons. And when I was there, my senior registrars and I made it very clear that I was really enjoying being there. So they taught me how to manipulate wrists, put casts on, put joints back and aspirate joints. And that was as an F 41, I'd shadow them on call. Granted it was out of hours that I was doing this, but it was so much fun and so much rewarding. And as I say, those two registrars then suggested that I came down to Tayside. And so it was a bit of networking without realizing I was just enjoying what I was doing. General medicine as well just because you need to know how to manage an MRI. And I was always told a good surgeon is a good doctor. So um you can't, even though there's an ongoing joke about orthopedics just being about the bones, you need to know how to treat patients as well as a whole. And that also adds into how you are as a, as a junior trainee. And then as you progress throughout your training, if two jobs, I did palliative care again, I wanted to do that because it's one of the Initail in life, even in orthopedics. We have this discussion quite regularly and I've been on call today and I had it once. I'm sure it'll happen again. The next time I'm on call because of a lot of our patients are frail. And if you get that conversation right, people remember, um, and it's something to focus on, especially as you progress through training COVID hit and I was lucky to have my emergency medicine placement extended to eight months. Um, instead of the usual four, I believe in that eight months, I did 10 day shifts. So the rest of it was out of hours and nights again, it sounds a bit grim. Um, but it was actually brilliant for sort of my exponential learning of everything I told everyone I like bones. So any hip fracture I got C got to do the F I block any wrists. I got to manipulate joints that were dislocated. I got to put them back and everyone was really supportive. If you show that passion and determination and keenness, people will help you. I did do a taste a week in orthopedics even though the department couldn't get rid of me. Um And that also counts for your CV and showing commitment. I started an MS C when I was an fy one and that was a distance learning MS C. It was three years long. It was pretty intense at times because obviously being a junior doctor on the ward when it's really busy can be a bit nightmare is having to sit down and then write your project or an essay and, but looking back on it, I'm actually really proud of what I did with that presentation and the piece of work and I have presented it literally everywhere. So it's been at the Bo A, it's been in Lisbon, it's been in Vienna. I really milked it because I worked so hard for it. So if you've got the time and if you're, you're willing to invest in it, an MS C is a good shout. Um and obviously presentations from as many projects as you've done. So keeping track of progress now, I was talking to one of our current fellows and he was saying, how on earth did you keep track of what you were doing? How did you tick all the boxes? And I really hate box ticking. My rule of thumb is only do something if it's worthwhile, if you enjoy it, if you think you're going to make the world a better place from doing it. So basically my secondary survey order that was pediatric trauma cases that hadn't had the full a two week assessment. After their initial primary survey, it showed that it was being done poorly. We came up with a performer, we put it in place in NHS Grampian improved adherence to the secondary surveys. That's great. And it's picked up on so many of the missed injuries and that could have been a it could have been avoided if it did have done the secondary survey in the first place. Another big point I would say is honest feedback from consultants and senior trainees. Um As I've already mentioned, if you are keen, if this, this is what you want to do, people will nurture you and they will guide you down the right route and they will encourage you and they will be very honest, possibly too honest at times, but it is worthwhile. And I thought the best thing was just a personal satisfaction of the achievements that I had. Looking back at things that I've done over a year, I was like that's pretty good. And then you look back at the CV and how it's developed. And again, that just really helps boost you up a bit as well. So the application process, if you're applying this year, this is the applicant guide. So that's on the NHS Education for Scotland website. Obviously all applications are through Oriel. Um The biggest tips I could give you regarding this are just read all the supporting documentation. So mainly the specific applicant guide the person specification and the scoring sheet don't get too bogged down in it because if you read it, you think how on earth does anyone get into orthopedics? It is possible. Um But it's good to have that awareness of what they're actually after the other big tip I could give you is gather all your evidence as you're doing it. Save it in a folder on your computer and save it as PDF S with dates and titles because when you get long listed, you then ask to put your evidence forward. Um And then it takes a lot of the stress off because it's always around Christmas time and it is always a miserable time and at least if you've got it there, it's good to go. I'd also recommend you research the career in full. Um go in with your eyes wide open of the the realities of orthopedics and it's not all just operating and trauma calls and the glamour of orthopedics there is also a lot of hard work you have to do. But the way I see it is you do the hard work and then you get the reward in the theater. So today I was on call and unfortunately, my colleague was a bit tied up. So I stayed on for about two extra hours. But tomorrow I'm in trauma theater and that's the, the rewards for working so hard today. But that's probably just how my brain works. Um But you, you need to know that the career and the sacrifices that you will have to make is not just hand it to you. The other big tip I can give you regarding applications is time management. Um So there is a lovely timeline that they've put on the Scottish medical training website. It tells you absolutely everything, deadlines for applications, deadlines for offers, et cetera, et cetera, write them down, have them on your calendar and try and get things done at least four days before at the latest and then you're not feeling stressed and worried about it because it's all sorted. So a lot of people say, how do you straight commitment to surgery? Um This is where I possibly went a little bit overboard just because I was so determined to get in essentially. So the E log book is one of the really good ways to show that this is what you want to do. I wish I had an E log book when I was at uni because it would have been much, much more numbers. Um when I actually got in now, bear in mind this was after three years, no, two years as a fellow and two years as fy, I ended up with 257 cases. So 100 and 95 were first assistants. 31 was the name surgeon. And that is literally because I kept saying to everyone, this is what I want to do. And so I was doing a DH S as a fellow. I think I did a couple as an fy as well. And it is, it's so much fun, best part of the job. And also it shows that commitment. But I should also want you, you only need 10 as an assistant or to be performed under supervision. So I clearly went a little bit overboard. Um So all you need is 10 for orthopedics. So don't stress procedural skills. It's always good to say that you're competent in surgical scrubbing, suturing knot tying, you learn those in surgical skills at school. Um And also on courses if you're able to try and learn how to reduce joints and fractures, how to do hematoma blocks and how to do joint aspirations. And that also goes done very well on your application and an interview if you can manage acute referrals and polytrauma patients that goes down well, trauma training courses that you can attend. Um So the top one is one that I did when I was a teaching fellow. It's expensive. It's aimed at ST threes in orthopedics. And I think this was me just proving a point that I'm as good as the others. Um, so don't worry about a o trauma. Maybe when you're in training, that'd be more beneficial, advanced trauma, life support. If you're able to get onto that as an F two, it's brilliant, especially if you've got a job in A&E and it'll get you really up there with the, the trauma calls, you get more involved, basic orthopedic procedural skills. That was a great course I did in Fy and that was at the College of Surgeons down in Glasgow. It's run by orthopedic trainees and you learn sort of joint reductions, hematoma blocks, aspiration, casting and proper casting, how to do it well and how to make the cast look pretty basic surgical skills. They love that one. for applications to both orthopedics and for core surgery. And that's through the college in Edinburgh. I also did a critical care course and that was run through NS again. That was when I was in Fy and I did a prehospital care course when I was 1/5 year medical student going into Fy as well. Um, and all of those counted when I applied and it's all you can tailor them towards orthopedics. Publication wise, everyone gets quite stressed about publications and I didn't really have that many in all honesty. So my medical school elective project from 2018 took two years to publish. Um So that was my main publication. I got involved in COVID search collaborative projects because during COVID, there was lots of projects going on. It, basically just data collection um and just pulling my weight with that. And I got to put my name down on publications. I did a presentation and in it was the summer Scott down in Dunblane and they published their abstracts in the Bone and joint journal. I said that's a published abstract class it as a publication and also a lot of data collection from when I was a medical student. And I'm still doing it now as a registrar, it is unpleasant. There's no easy way to do it. But if you show you can collect data and if you can show you can do a, a good table that's organized logical. If you can analyze it, if you can do basic stats, then you're given more projects. It's a sort of stepping stone to get higher and higher in, in different projects. Closely forward it. I've already mentioned I did my imp improving adherence to secondary surveys in NHS Grampian. And I did a Q I project again. This was one when I was an fy two working in A UE realized that patients were sometimes over weekends and out of hours, there was delays in getting MRI scans for a possible Corinna. So I audited, it showed that it was the case, ended up presenting it at the Scottish Spine Scottish spine meeting down in Edinburgh. And then things sort of took off a little bit. And there were discussions by the consultants with government and the higher management in the hospital. And now they do have 24 hours access to MRI scans. So again, this is going back to projects that are worthwhile and that actually do benefit patients. And then you can always do projects and presentations on things that you've done teaching wise. This mainly increased quite dramatically when I was the teaching fellow because I was also an honorary clinical lecturer, basically worked alongside the musculoskeletal teaching lead. And I designed organized and delivered the orthopedic and musculoskeletal curriculum for the University of Dundee. And it was for their second years and the fourth years, I also led the clinical skills for both of those years. And that was quite intense during endless knee exams and how to teach the hip exam. Um But each time I did it, I learned a different technique on how to teach people and how to communicate with students and how, how to sort of approach um different difficulties that they were having. I also did a weekly teaching session on basic orthopedic principles for the students. And then I did that for the S as well and I end up being roped into doing oo examining which was completely different. See it from the other side. But this is all sort of added to the teaching and the development of me as I progressed through my training. And hopefully, when I'm a consultant and I'm teaching more students, I can hark back to these years and the things I've learned from joining NHS Tayside, I was also given the post of being the junior doctor lead for departmental F I teaching and mentorship. I came up with a project that we allocate every fy to a registrar who's a mentor and mainly for pastoral reasons. But there's also project and audit possibilities and that seem to go down well. And we're still doing that, did a couple of teaching sessions for the Dundee University Surgical Society. It was very kind that I was invited to do that and I was also invited to do National Teaching Foundation Training Surgical Society. Now, this was all by people that I taught before during my time in NHS Tayside or in Aberdeen. Um So again, it's showing that you're keen and then people are more likely to ask you to do things. And then during COVID, again, just one of the benefits of COVID, I was a mentor for the interim S. So this slide is basically just to show there's always things that you can do um regarding teaching and always ways to show you commitment to surgery. Now interviews 2024 information. So it's still going to be an online interview I believe it's about an hour long. I believe mine was an hour and a half because there was a break for lunch, which I wasn't aware of something. There was some sort of delay. It's basically four stations and they're each 10 minutes, you've got a handover station, Communication Station, Clinical Station. And then you've got a presentation which is three minutes long and then you've got a discussion about your commitment to speciality for seven minutes. So you can see the different breakdown of what you're scored for there. Essentially, if you get your foot in the door with an interview, it's the slate is pretty much clean. And then if you impress an interview, the training number's yours, but it is hard work. Um I can't downplay that and you've really got to believe you can do it. I had one of the consultants and he kept saying to me, you can do this, you're great. And I was like, I don't think I am and he was like, you, you're great. You can do this, you're quality. And by the end of somebody repeatedly telling me that every day, I was like, maybe I can do this. And you realize the more confident you are, the more likely that comes across and the more likely that you, you're going to be successful the presentation, this isn't really talked about much in the orthopedic interview, but it is a big thing. Now, it's only three minutes and the first time I did the interview, face to face, you had to wear a suit, stand in front of the whole committee and just speak. You're not allowed any notes, you're allowed one slide and no notes and it was scary. Um, but if it's slick, if it's polished, it really sets the tone of how you are as a person, how you are as a trainee and it, you sort of hit the ground running if you know, you've smashed it from the presentation. Um But we can talk about more of that. If you've got any more questions, there are different ways to approach it and I slightly went off piece and it seemed to go down. Well, so that's basically the interview and then basically just a few key points. So orthopedic training is one of the most competitive jobs in Scotland in Europe, especially training in Scotland. It is possible that I got in. So that means anyone can get in the biggest tips I can give you is just take every opportunity that you're offered and people will help you if you ask and take the risks because you never know. And I was determined I wanted to stay in Scotland. Everyone said, oh, the job in Yorkshire is really good take it. I was like, I'm going to give it one last shot, took a massive gamble. Thankfully, it paid off. Ok. So basically good luck with everything. Um If I can help in any way. Do let me know. And I'll try my best and here's some key websites and it's got the application sort of guide for specialty recruitment in Scotland E log book if you don't know about that as well. And here's a shameless plug for Tayside orthopedics. We've developed a website if you're in NHS Tayside and you want to get involved in our projects. So that is a very long whistle, well, a brief but long as well, whistle stop tour throughout my, uh my journey into orthopedics and third time lucky eventually cracked it. So please do, let me know if you've got any questions or if I can help in any way. Ok. Pepy. Thank you very much, a really helpful talk. Um Yeah, and you've given us some great advice and support. I think the hardest thing as someone, you know, at the beginning of the process is just how daunting everything looks and I'm sure everybody agrees with me. Um, but yeah, I think that was a well of broken down um, presentation and I think particularly hearing about the interview and, um, that kind of, you know, you how you, how that works and how that goes through because everybody just focuses on getting the short list and get your foot in the door. But then like, if you don't know what to do and you get there, it's tricky, tricky and everyone gets so stressed about application numbers, how many points do you need to get an interview? If you ask any of the consultants in Tayside? They will say, I used to say I do not have enough points. And I remember crying that I didn't think I was good enough. I didn't have enough points because somebody next door had even more points than me. Irrelevant. Just think about your own application and try and make it as good as you can do. Nice, nice. And so we're now going to go into the Q and A part of this talk. So if people are happy to pop any questions they have in the chat, um and this will be happy to answer them. Um I can kick off with just a wee question about what was so I don't know if you can give away details, but roughly the presentation that you had to do, was it clinical or was it on a random topic? Yeah. So the, the question for the presentation is given before and it's actually published on the website just now. And if you are applying this year, have another look on the website. It's just been updated. Um The one I had most recently was how can orthopedics recover from the COVID-19 pandemic? So it seems a bit of a dry topic. I tried to think outside the box and I ended up, I'd just seen Mulan, the film I ended up talking about um sort of trees growing in adversity and then the Tree of Andre and talking it that way. Um, and it was just completely off pieced but it seemed to go well, like it was a novel way of approaching it. I remember the first time. Um, I did it, it was about how was the curriculum changing and how would you describe this? I've just been to Amsterdam and the Van Gogh Museum. I talked about Van Gogh. And again, I scored quite highly with that. So you do get the presentation title. It looks really dry. Try and make it a bit out there and a bit different. Allegedly, it makes you memorable. Um, and also it shows a bit of personality as well, doesn't it? I mean, people are gonna be bored sitting through all these endless presentations of how can COVID, how can orthopedics recover from COVID if you can be different? Mhm. Mhm. That's a good, good skill. We've got, we got, yeah. So I, I was a member of Oxin. I wasn't anything on the committee. Um, still got in. If you feel that you've got the time to dedicate to the surgical Society, definitely go for it. Um, I know loads of people that have done it and really enjoyed it. Um, but don't feel that, that you have to, if it's just a tick a box, my rule is don't do anything to tick a box to it because you want to do it. I can, I can, I went through all the different stages and that it was very helpful in terms of the connections I made and in terms of the teaching opportunities, I loved being the suturing coordinator. And that's how I met Liz originally is through pestering everybody on the orthopedic team or in any surgical team from anywhere in nine. Well, if they would come and teach for us. Um, yeah, Pria is here, another desk member and there's a couple of other people as well. Oh, you remember? Well, at least, yeah, so that's very nice. But um yeah, that was one of the other questions that I had. We've got a couple more as well, but was for teaching. What kind of evidence do you need? Because I remember looking at this before and sometimes it said consultant letter and sometimes it just said feedback and it's a bit variable. I don't know if you have any further insight. Yeah. So it is variable and regardless of what you apply to it is variable. And I'm guessing most people, if you apply for orthopedics, you will also apply for call. So you need to have both of what they want. So I had a letter from the consultant lead saying of all the different teaching that I've done and how many clinical skills sessions I'd run. So there was actual numbers, I also had feedback from students that I sort of photocopied and made into a PDF. And then I said, look, I've done this, I've taught and people seem to like it. Um, and basically you can never have enough, too much evidence and so just cover all bases. Perfect. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, ok, we've got a few more questions in the chat. I don't know if you're, if you're able to bring up the chat as well, but I can read them out. Um, the first one was, is there any funding available for a master's in Edinburgh? Yeah. So, unfortunately I couldn't find any funding. I tried really hard and it didn't work out and it was expensive. But my argument was, I was an fy one. I was earning, I sort of paid for it each week and I think I worked up the pay each week was about seven lbs or something, which is like two coffees and that's how I thought around it. But it is expensive and it is something to consider. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's another one that was, is there a way to get involved in researching orthopedics during medical school and any other tips of getting involved in orthopedics during, um, med school? Yeah. So, when you're on your rotation in orthopedics, if it's something you want to do, tell everyone. And I remember fondly being adopted by quite a few of the registrars who I'm still in good contact with, who sort of gave me loads of data collection to do because obviously registrars have to do projects sometimes if we're a bit busy, we'll sort of offload the data collection to our junior colleagues. And as I've mentioned already, if you impress with that, then you get more and more projects to do. Um So just tell everyone you're keen, um if you've got a surgical society at university and make it clear and go to that and then if there's orthopedic themed things, you'll see registrars and consultants attending that and basically everyone's here to help and if you're up in Dundee and just knock on the bedroom door and we can have a chat. Uh Yeah, that's definitely, I think if you're in Dundee, there's a really good orthopedic team, I think. Yeah, you can meet them through teaching, like when they do your teaching sessions or yeah, or go and track someone down. Um, like Liz and was for publication. Would you say it is better to during medical school or f? So I know quite a few people who did get publications in medical school and they worked so hard to get it done. And I think I was just more keen on enjoying medical school because I knew when I qualified it was very different. So that's why I focused on mainly getting the publication as an fy, but it does, it doesn't just happen. It takes a couple of years to get it sorted. You'll submit it to a journal, they'll want things tweaking that you then have to rewrite it. And try again. Um, I mean, if you want to publish something in med school, go for it, nothing's to stop you. But it is quite big. It is quite demanding. It doesn't happen within a week. Great. Um, by the way, if we're not answering your questions to exactly how you want it, just pop them in the chat. We're just getting quite a few through at the moment. So I'm just going to carry on working through it, but we'll get back down to you and someone else is asking. So do I need surgeons to sign my E log book? I'm doing an SSE and Ortho surgery later this year and I find the log book a little bit confusing. Yeah, the log book is confusing and it doesn't get better when you're actually in training and for your applications, all you need to do is print off the summary page. You can actually click on. I can't remember what the button actually is, but you can do a summary PDF, get a consultant to sign the front page and then that's it verified. Um Sometimes when you sort of put in the consultant that you've been assisting with or that you've shadowed it, then goes on to their logbook and then you can press a button to verify it. I still haven't had any of mine verified, but I have had a consultant sign the front of my logbook and before I've been applying to things and so I just do that. Just keep on top of the logbook. Yeah, I found out but, um, in bulk was when I did an elective or did an SS E and a surgical specialty, I'd do whatever surgeries I had, I'd log them and then send my supervisor a PDF of the logged ones and then get them to sign it. Um, I don't know if that's the correct way but somebody had told me that was the easiest way to get them to do it rather than each individual one that makes sense. It's one of those things. Nobody actually knows how it works. As long as a consultant has said, yes, this is true. It's valid. Ok. Well, that's good to know someone else has asked. Um, how would you recommend getting into research or getting started? And where do you kind of, is there any good place to get info about it from and where to gain these skills? Just kind of be? It's a good question because there's not really, it's not really talked about how to get into research. Um, so if you're in medical school, when you do sort of projects, try and get into it that way, if you've got a professor in your department, have a chat with them and see if there's anything that they can do to try and, um, get you involved in their research. I think I ended up going down that research route because I did A B SC beforehand. And that had a project and then obviously the MS C and then projects at UNI I just sort of stumbled into research, but I'm sure there's more formal ways of going about it. And if you speak to the senior consultants who will be heavily, there's always one in every hospital that publishes pretty much every day, it seems. And if you make it clear to them that it's something you want to get into, I'm sure they'll be able to help you. Great. Thank you. Yeah, it's kind of a tricky one. I think you start, as I said about earlier, finding projects that you're invested in and that you're interested in of often come from B MS ES or SSES or projects or things that you've spiked interest in already. Um And yeah, it's, it's a tricky. It's no set way of finding these things. Um Someone else has just asked about if the E log book is only for orthopedics. Um I think it's for all surgical specialties and the only thing you can't really log there is Gyne. Um But if you had those surgeries, but you can kind of keep them in a separate thing. Um Someone else has asked, would you recommend doing a BME in Ortho? So it's not something I did because it wasn't offered in Aberdeen, but the students I've seen in Dundee doing it are really enjoying it. It looks great. I'm actually quite jealous that that's offered um because it gets you involved in research, it gets you involved in the department, you get your face seen. Um And it also looks really fun and quite rewarding. You do projects that are worthwhile. Um So if it's something you want to do do it, definitely. Um I think it also looks great. I, I decided not to do one if you're wanting another, another perspective. Um But that was just due to my circumstances and preference. Um But I think, yeah, as I said, if it's something you're interested in and you like the look of, I know it's a lot of motion technology and maths as well. Um But yeah, lots of research opportunities and getting involved in the department. Um OK. And then next one was, I think someone had already answered this. But do you need to be first author of, of a publication or is being involved in the process? Good enough. Um Yeah, I mean, as I say, I put down papers that I've been a collaborative researcher with literary data collecting and then it was published and that does count. It is good. If you're a first author on two papers, I think that's how they phrase it, but it is tricky to get that done. If you're a second author, that's also great. My paper, I'm the second author from my elective in New Zealand. Always aim for the stars if you want to be the first author, go for it. And if you're the second author, that's fine as well. If you're a collaborator also fine and see, see what we can do really. And then PD diploma slash MS E in medical education, be beneficial towards orthopedics. And would you recommend it? That's a good question. When I was the teaching fellow, I thought I'd do a PGC. I would compliment the job that I'm doing. I'm the teaching fellow. I can use that as the projects and the reflections and things. And, but again, funding was a bit tricky. I couldn't really afford it because it's extra money that you have to pay out. Although they are now funding it in certain hospitals. And so if it's something you want to do, definitely look into that. Um it's also quite time consuming as well and, and I thought because I'm sort of doing a teaching fellow job and being a ST one in inverted Commas fellow, I didn't really have the time to throw my heart into it. So I didn't do it and I wasn't penalized for not doing it. But then I do know people that have done a PD cert in med and they've got points for on their application. And so again, as with everything, it's whether it's something you want to do, if you think you can dedicate as much time as it needs to do it. And if you think it'll make you better at teaching and definitely go for it, but don't worry if you can't do it. Yeah, I think looking at the scale of the application process, someone, um, one of the registrars in Dundee actually had said to me that you have to remember that you're not gonna be able to take all of the boxes on the application process and it's designed to be broad so that everything that you're able to do or that you, you know, shows who you are, you know, will be awarded points in that way. And to think of it more like that rather than you're going to be able to max everything. Um But yeah, I think we've got one more question. Um And it's any useful interview courses you would recommend. Um And they said thank you for the very useful and interesting story. Oh, that's very kind. Um In regards to interview courses, I didn't actually do any what I did in preparation for the interview was speak to every consultant and ask them to grill me. And I told everyone my presentation, somebody once threatened me to do it after a run of nights in on call at the end of that to do my presentation. And it was just to get it drummed into my head that I practiced it. I knew it backwards and forwards upside down inside out. All the consultants were incredible. Everyone had a slightly different slant on how to approach the interview. Um And they were all very, very keen to try and to try and help as well. I also had quite a few senior registrars grill me and sometimes I, it did make me feel a bit like, oh my God, I'm not good enough, but it's actually, it comes from a place of love and kindness and they want you to do better and they want to try and push you to be really good. Um, so I can't give any advice on specific interview courses, but I can just say, speak to anyone and everyone and just practice, practice, practice, especially with the virtual interviews. That's quite a big thing actually. So as I've already mentioned, the first time I could shake someone's hand, I could stand up. And so the body language played a big role, 2nd and 3rd time round. It's all on zoom. You don't get that sort of interaction with someone and you need to know where to put your camera. Where, where is it at eye level? What's the background behind? Can you see boxes from when I moved house? Is this professional et cetera, et cetera? Um And that's always good to do a trial run with. Um I think I did at least six trial runs. I even did a dress rehearsal as well just to make sure that my dress looked ok. And I slightly went obsessive about it. But if it's important to you, you do throw everything at it. Um And people will help. OK. Thanks very much for answering those questions and thank you guys for interacting with us. These sessions are always so much better when we get um questions from you guys and you know, make the presentation what's useful, you know, what's most useful for you. Um I'm going to share the feedback form just now and if you've got any further questions, feel free to fire them into the chat. And the last thing I'll say is a few plugs for good things to get involved in um Dundee University Surgical Society. I know have their applications open for places definitely where I started and great place to get to know people and have and get teaching experience. And then bombs of Scotland who I'm here representing today also have their regional positions open at the moment and their local positions will be opening up. So the local positions are for Dundee, Aberdeen and Edinburgh and Glasgow. Um But, and I'm the Scotland rep for this year and that's a really good position to hold in terms of your CV and you know, being on a national committee. Um and finally torque so the taste of orthopedic um research to have got their annual meeting coming up and they're still, I think they're still accepting applications at the moment. Is that correct? We are indeed, yep, applications still open until Friday. So if you have any new projects, um definitely, you know, consider entering them and presenting them or entering a poster. Um, I've done one before. Everyone's really friendly and you can just get some great feedback and it's a little competition and if you win, that's also going to look great on your CBS. Um But yeah, do you have any last words, Liz? For? No, just on talk. Really? Because I'm on the committee for that. Um, the first committee I've ever been on as a registrar, a med student. So again, don't get too stressed about that. Um So talk, it's off site this year. So it's going to be at the Landmark Hotel and we've got some really interesting speakers. If you want to get involved, you'll get a certificate for attending as well, even if you're not presenting. Um I believe it's already been advertised on the social media channels and you're more than welcome to join if you want to and the day is free. We do have an evening dinner as well, but we have a bit of a knees up, a bit of a celebration. So you're more than welcome to join that as well. You do have to pay for that side. But the more the merrier everyone's, everyone's welcome. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I can send you guys the link to the tickets for those as well. And so I just ask if the slides to be shared and this session's been recorded. So the recording will go up and I can definitely post the slides on medal with this. Um And also we have a few um, extra teaching sessions that were done by Bumps of Scotland earlier this year with a few other members from Tayside and across Scotland. Um So if you like to check out any of our other s events, feel free, but I'll let you guys get away. Um Hope you enjoyed the session and if you have any more questions, just pop them in the chat or get yourselves away and enjoy your evening. Ok. Uh, of sex. Thanks everyone and thanks for asking questions as well and sort of getting involved. It really does make it better than just talking to a screen. So hopefully it's been a bit helpful. And if you've got any other questions, you can track me down in nine wells if you work this way or if you're in uni over here. Um, or I'm sure Caitlin will be able to put you in contact with me in a different way. Yeah. If you've got any other questions, I'll do anything I can to help if I can. Ok. Sorry. All the best ever. No problem. No problem we have up here.