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Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the second day of the M Sra preparation series. Er This session isn't to do with the M Sra, but it's just an introduction session by interview preparation. It's targeted at course of people applying to course surgical training, but maybe you might find some useful to sort of interviews, so it might still be worth attending. Uh Reason for doing this session is so you have this well in advance uh Mara's gonna be presenting for you, so I'll turn over to her. Um Hello. So today we're just gonna go across the standard application process and the co surgical training interview process, mainly the interview. So we had touched upon this earlier if you had attended our introduction section regarding what the interview would entail and we're just going further a little bit more in detail. Um So if there's three things to take away from this session is that you need to be really quick about the booking, that's the first point, you need to be sure that you have study leave, managed that you um so you can take the professional leave in case uh you don't have a study leave planned already. Um And the trust would ideally give it to you, but make sure that around the days that you don't have nights or like long days so that you're not really stressed for the day of the interview, like sometimes it happens that you do nights and then you haven't got a booking for a time that you want and you book the interview for the day after the nights, which is quite stressful and you would be tired. The second thing to take away is that we've provided some resources which would be really helpful for the interview, especially the co surgical interview book, The Green Thing on the left side. Um So that's a book that's quite helpful and most people use to prepare for the CST interviews. So the clinical scenarios in this book, um sometimes they come word to word as a question from the panel. So make sure you gone through this in detail, this does not obviously always happen, but then they have a wide variety of clinical scenarios and management scenarios that would be really helpful for your interviews. So make sure that you've gone through it well in advance and you've prepared for it and you practiced with it. The third thing again, like I was saying is that you practice, make sure that you practice so much that you're completely comfortable about um comfort, completely comfortable with the interview process and the questions that could be asked, make sure that you practice with each other. If you have a friend who is going through the same process or a colleague, make sure that you um get in touch with them and you practice together and practice with your seniors as well. So seniors include people who have just taken the exam who have just gotten through the interviews or even consultants who might have been involved with the interview process a while back. Um Next slide. So in today's session, what we're gonna do is we're gonna give you an overview of the process. So most of the things are similar to the last year's interviews. But one change that has happened this year is that they've added a portfolio section in the interview process where you'd have to talk about the portfolio. So we're gonna talk a little bit in detail about the portfolio bits and about the clinical and management scenarios that could come up. So CJ is gonna join us at the end and he's gonna just share with us his personal experiences regarding the interview last year. Um So we're gonna do that and we're gonna answer the questions at the end as well next slide. Um So the timeline. So the first thing that's opened right now is the oral applications. So the deadline is November 21st, make sure that you apply by then. And something that you need to keep in mind is anything that you submit for evidence saying this is my portfolio needs to be completed before the 21st of November. Um ideally get it signed off before the 21st as well. But even if you don't get it signed off, the dates that you supposed on your teaching or you done your audits need to be before November 21st. Um The second thing is the MSR exam, which is the main purpose of this course. So hopefully this course has helped all of you um in getting a bit of an idea about the MSR exam. Um Obviously, we haven't been able to go through all the topics in detail because of the constraint and time that we've managed to make the most out of the little time we have and given an overview about it. Um Keep preparing for the exams. Um Can you please say what time the next session will be after the CST one? Um So the next one will be at 230. Um We're gonna have a break for around 45 minutes and we're gonna come back to it, right? Uh So the emissary exam we keep preparing for it, keep doing the SJ T part as well. Don't um neglect the SJ T part because it holds 50% of the marks um and keep studying for the clinical part. So today's session is about the CST interviews. So the interview will be held over a time window which is the 24th of FEB to the seventh of March and around the same time is when you'd have to rank your preferences as well. So it does get quite stressful at this time because um you think you have time to prepare for the interviews after the whole exam, but then you'd be ranking your jobs as well, which is quite a stressful thing because there are so many topics in it, there are so many ranks in it. So there's around 650 job preferences. You would have to rank based on where you want to be and what uh specialty you want to train in further later. So uh make sure that you prepare for your interviews and start practicing now itself. Um Another thing to remember is that um once once the ranks have been put out and you finished your interviews and once the offers start appearing, there will be an option to hold the offer and upgrade the offer. So please remember this upgrade is an automatic upgrade. You would not, if you choose to hold an upgrade, it would automatically get upgraded. You wouldn't be able to go back and say no, actually, I want this specialty that like I initially got offered at this post that I initially got offered. If you choose for an upgrade, it automatically gets upgraded next slide. Um So these are just a few PDF links. Uh PDF send a few um QR codes to various links that would be helpful. So there are a few manuals on there. That's the self assessment panel, um uh which CJ submitted and the evidence with CJ submitted as well. And there's interview feed back from C Js uh interview. So all these are things that you can just read and see what they're looking for and see the tiny mistakes that you could possibly make. And there's an I love PDF as well to collect your evidence, which could be helpful. So you need to collect your evidence in PDF format and submit it. So use it if you don't have uh another PDF section. Next one. Um So in terms of the interview process, it is done online using this Cubicle video pla platform. So it is just a platform that's similar to Zoom or teams. It's basically just a video conferencing platforms. Um Again, in terms of booking the interview, it's based on first come first serve. So make sure that you're aware of when the interview uh dates are released so that you can book it well in advance and you don't have to struggle and get worried about what you're doing before and after the date of the interview. So make sure that you have enough time, uh try and switch around shifts. If you're on nights during that period, it's just a 14 days, you might be able to switch for someone who doesn't have interviews at the same time. Um So that you're on regular days and you can take leaves and uh study leaves if, if required to prepare for it. Um So on the day of the exam, the first thing they do is there's a diagnostic tool used to check um uh the compatibility with your system. Um And the second thing is there's an ID check. So you go into the waiting room and there's an ID check for which you would require your passport B RP or your driving license. Um So you would to make sure you have your ID in hand. Um And the next thing is that they would do a camera check as well to see if you're in a well lit room. If your audio is working, um You can check and make sure that your interview, that your uh system that you use is compatible and just make sure it works. Also, make sure that you're sitting in an area with enough lights um where the sound is not where you don't have enough where you don't have any background noise and where you have a good strong connection for Wi Fi. So II think it would help if you ensure your hotspot is on as well. For whatever reason, if your Wi Fi fails, you can immediately connect to your hotspot and continue on with your interview. So all these things, um even though they seem like small things, they add stress when something goes wrong. So make sure that you lessen the chances of anything going wrong in terms of technology, next slide, next slide. Um So in terms of coming to the interview process, there is three stations each of the stations. So usually um or at least last year, there were only two stations. Um This year they've added a new portfolio station. Um So the portfolio station is 10 minutes and they're gonna pick two domains. So before you start the portfolio station, they're gonna review your portfolio and see if you've submitted enough evidence. Um And they're gonna score it based on the scoring on the right. So, um if the evidence is good enough, they're gonna say, ok, um we'll give you the points that you've allotted for yourself. So in that 10 minutes, they review it and they decide on two sections of your portfolio that they're gonna ask you about and each of them would be five minutes each. Um That's what the portfolio is. We'll talk about it a little bit more on further slides. Then there are two stations that's the management station and the clinical station. Both of them are again divided into five minutes sections each. So one advantage about the management station is the first five minutes is something that they've already told you like last year it was regarding leadership and management. They tell you what you need to present before the you. So there's no excuse in getting this part of it and fumbling during this part of it because it's supposed to be preprepared and you, you should know what, ideally, what you're supposed to say. And you should have practiced it enough time that it comes fluently and with an adequate amount of confidence. So that would be just three minutes. So make sure that your presentation that you're prepared comes falls just under three minutes. Um If you exceed beyond three minutes, they do cut you off. So make sure you've timed it well. And then there would be two minutes. They would ask you questions regarding the presentation. Um Like I said, last year, it was leadership. So if it is leadership, they'll ask you, how did you go a what was the process? You probably did this whole thing in and how did it help you and what those are some of the questions that can come. Um The second one would be a management scenario. So again, that book that we initially showed you about the co surgical training interviews has a few management scenarios. So this would, this is essentially a situational judgment type of scenario where they give you a scenario in which so they give you some sort of scenarios and that's based on your sgt and then you have to explain on what you would do in that situation. Um The clinical station again is divided and we'll talk about each of these in detail. Uh So the clinical station is again a 10 minutes station, it's divided into 25 minutes. Um The the five minutes sections, each of them would be based on the ADLs principles or the cri crisp principles. And you would have to initially say that you would assess the patient from AD E and you'd move on to the case. That's specifically a scenario. Um Right. So these are just uh so these are just some structured approaches that can be found online. Um You can, it's found in online, it's found in books. It's something that a lot of people use to answer questions fluently. So these are just suggestions, there is no hard and fast rule that you have to stick to the structure, but these do help you form a more structured answer and it makes you more fluent. Um So for, so the first one is the cam process. So that's about so if they ask you a question, like why, why would we select you or why do you want surgery? This is a structure that you can use to answer that question. Um So c stands for clinical. So any clinical. So for example, if you want to take a general surgery or orthopedic in the clinical section, you can talk about um stuff you've done like clinics you've attended or surgeries, you've gone for at least two weeks that you've attended because purely based on interest. So coming to the academic part, that would be any researches or audits you've done. So it would be beneficial if it's in the field that you're interested in because you can talk about it more and say this is the reason I did this project, the management is any leadership thing. If you, if you walk nice to teaching. So that's something that's in the portfolio this time. So that's why I'm saying teaching. So if you organize something like a teaching, that would be what you talk about in the management and personal is any personal experience you have or any skill that you have that's unrelated to medicine that could have transferrable skills. Next. Um So the second uh structure that you can use is something called spies. So this is used in a situation where there's a problem and like for example, there's a conflict or a complaint or something regarding patient safety. So you can use the spice to give an answer based on it. So the first thing s stands for situation, so you would talk about what the situation is like, whether it's a complaint or a patient safety issue, what it is like that would come from the question. And the problem is how is this posing a problem to you or like how is this posing a problem to the patient? And then the next is initiated. What action would you take to actually um solve the problem? So that would be the initiative. Um And if this doesn't work, would you escalate it? And how would you escalate it? And who would you escalate it? To. And the next last step is the support like where can you get the support for the patient or for you in any situation? Next. So um another structure that you can use is the star structure. So that's again, in case they ask you a question about leadership or teamwork, so you can even use this for the leadership question that you might have to present or whatever question in the presentation of those three minutes. So that would entail the situation. What is the situation like? What was the leadership, for example, what is the leadership role that you undertook and the task? That's how did you do it like? How did you like? How did you form the or organization or how did you organize the event? And the action is um what did you do during the event? How did you make sure that it was um properly presented or properly done? And the result would be um what is the result of it? And how can you further improve it next? Um So coming to the clinical scenarios, so the clinical scenarios can be either trauma scenarios or ward based scenarios. So most of them are based on the atl S principles or the cris principles. So we, you would go first with the a to e of um the situation, you would assess the patient using a to a precip and um you need to practice. So this over here, this is something that you need to remember that you practice it multiple times that you're fluent with your answer. Um Obviously, if you've done an ATL S course or a crisp course, it would be additionally helpful, even the A LS course via the AT E principles. So, but make sure that you say it enough times, you practice it enough times with whoever you can find. So, um the thing to remember here is that it's easy to miss things. Um So if you don't practice enough, but you think it, so it's very easy to think, you know, something because you've done it multiple times. But then if you don't voice it out and you don't practice, it's easy to miss small things. So for example, one of my colleagues, when they did their CST interview session, they had missed out on analgesia, which is technically a fairly obvious thing. We always prescribe analgesia for most surgical patients because most of them are in pain, orthopedics, general surgery, whatever it is, they come in with an acute condition. The first thing we do is like prescribe analgesia to control the pain. But because it's such an obvious thing, it's an easy thing to miss because um you would think, yeah, that's the thing that everyone does. You wouldn't think it's important to say. But make sure that you say it because in his feedback, he had got, you had missed out analgesia. Also, another thing to remember is that you present this very confidently. So um if you fumble during your presentation in an interview, it is very likely that they would pay more attention on what you're saying. And like they would be looking for mistake, even if they're not aware of it. So make sure that you have a structured approach and you say things very, very confidently. So like even if you have missed out on something, they might not actually notice it next. Um So again, these are just the things that we spoke about earlier. So use the cam by structure. So obviously, again, there's no hard and fast rule that you have to use it. Sometimes you have to mix and match them based on each situation. Um Next. So these are just uh some G tips. Um So one thing you have to answer the question, obviously, if they ask, if they've given you a scenario, usually they ask you about the management plan or how to assess or the investigation plan. So you have to answer that question. But even though answering the question is very important, that is not the most important part, like the thought process matters. Because usually the answer to the question is a simple answer. You don't need an interview for that. You're already being assessed in your clinical competencies in the emissary. So the thought process of it, of how you present yourself, how calm confident you are, all that matters and what structure do you give um to make sure that you practice it again, we keep saying practice it over and over again, but that is very, very important also, um especially in the portfolio section, make sure that you mention personal experiences and like things that are specific to you. Um For example, um if, if you're applying for an orthopedics post, like make sure your portfolio, if you can make sure that your portfolio is similar to like an orthopedic thing you've done or a general surgery thing you've done rather than just be it being just very general. Um Again, you have to prepare for the interview, make sure you have your leaves in place, make sure you've done a system, check your clothing reason check, you have your ids. Um, those are things that actually do not need to add on to your stress on the interview day. Next, right? So we're just gonna talk about the portfolio a bit more in detail because that's the new section that's been added. So, like I said earlier, they are gonna assess your portfolio in the 10 minutes that's given before they ask you to present it. And in that 10 minutes, they will mostly decide, um, whether they can give you the points that you have claimed for. And um, in the 10 minutes that come afterwards, they will pick two of the sections to ask you more about it. They'll probably ask you to explain more about it. So this is completely new to this year. Um I think it was there before the COVID Times, but they took it off for the past few years. Um Next one. Um So coming to the commitment to specialty. So these are the three things that was involved last year. Now, this year, they've taken off the conferences. So now there's the involvement in cases um which you would all have ae log book for. So make sure that you, so in case they ask you about this section of the portfolio, make sure you know about the cases that you've done. Uh Especially if there's a case that's a little complicated or something that you've done on your own. There's a high chance that you can speak more about it if you know about it well enough. Um and also the surgical experience. So even surgical experience, if you've done a taster and the specialty you're interested in, make sure you know what you've done in that taste a week, don't just say like, yes, I did a taste a week. Obviously say if you've gone to clinics or if you attended theater during that taste or what you did during that taster to make it helpful for your future uh conference is also uh I realize it's been removed, but it is possible that you can add it on to whatever you say. Like because of my interest, I attended a lot of conferences or like this, this conference, which was aligned with my interest. So you might be able to add it on even though it's taken off next. Ok. So the second bit is the qi and the clinical audit bit. Um So again, make sure that you have an audit that you've been the lead to. So whatever you say, make sure you've done it so you can talk, make sure you've done it well, so you can talk it about it more confidently and with more of a passion, uh make sure so the evidence, you can go through the evidence that's online. So just make sure you have everything ready before the MSR even so that you don't have to panic during the interview part to get the um all the evidence ready. So all this. So I know that like after MSR, it seems like there's enough time, but it does get really busy. So all these are things that you can already put in P DFS and have with you so that you don't have to work for the evidence later next. Um So this was the presentations that were there last year, but they've sort of changed it around to a to A to D currently. Um So they basically clubbed parts of it and like, for example, bi think last year, all representation was of eight points. Um This year, they've just, and I'm sure the case report was around four. So this year they've just added all of them together So again, so if you've gotten points for or presentation or you've done a case report, make sure that you can link it together, so you can mention things together. Um So for example, uh I've done an old presentation on a case report that I have written. So um I can even if I submit the case report as the evidence, I can probably mention that I've done an old presentation at the national level as well right next. Um So this has gotten a little complicated. So initially, when they released the teaching experience, they had mentioned, like before they officially released the portfolio or opened up the opened up the application section, they had mentioned that A was at regional level and C was a local level. But now what they've done is they've taken off the regional and local levels. So it's a little confusing on what the A NC is because it sounds very similar. Um But yeah, uh whatever, but just even at this point, just make sure whatever evidence you submit, just make sure you have enough to talk about it. Um And what the for the teaching program, obviously, you need to teach a minimum of four sessions this time. So last time, I don't think that was a requirement, but this time you should have taught four sessions and you need the formal feedback. So even with the formal feedback, if you should know what the feedback was, because in case they ask you, you know, what was the feedback you received? How do you plan on improving on it? You should know what it is. You should have reviewed the feedback and so that you have an answer to these questions, um even the training qualification. So that's a part again, they've taken it off this year. So training qualifications is also something that you can easily mention uh along with your teaching like this, I've done this in, say you've done teach the trainer. So you can, you can say that you've done a face to face teach the trainer, which helped me organize this program, so you can incorporate stuff from the last time's portfolio into this time. Next, right? So we're just gonna go on to specifics in each section. Um So the portfolio section, like I said, they're gonna just pick out two domains and they're gonna ask you each about it. I think we've covered that in detail. Now, let's go on to the next one. Uh Another thing about portfolio section is to make sure that each thing you say is individualized to your own experience that you um act that you, you say talking about something and you're actually passionate about it. And it usually shows in an interview if you've actually done it and if you're actually very passionately done it, like there's a difference between passionately doing something and doing something just for the sake of the portfolio um on a on a normal basis, like for example, last year, I don't think it would have mattered because no one would know. But this time because you have to talk about it, make sure you have enough to say next. Um So the clinical scenarios again, we go from A to E there'll be simulations, either trauma or what ca based. So, um it would be really helpful to attend an A S or an ATL S or crisp course for this uh because they do tell you how to manage the scenario and uh in a way that you can answer better, but obviously, it's a little late to book the courses right now. But you can borrow the books of Atl SA LS from your friends who have done the course and go through the scenario. So you have a better idea. Uh Make sure you practice this again. II keep saying, practice it, but it's just, it's, it, it needs to be practiced enough that you're very fluent with saying what you're saying right next. Um So the management station, so the management station again, the first one is usually a three minute presentation. Uh practice this enough with different people and get their feedback on what you're saying. Uh improve it in a way that you've uh that you're saying improve it in a way so that uh you know, as in talk to different people and improve what you're saying. Um So this one ma management scenario that can come can be uh from your SJ T situations. So the SJS can actually help with this. Uh There are various possibilities that can be a struggling colleague or a clinic case or a complaint that a patient has put. So all of this comes in that book that we showed you initially. So just go through it in detail left, right? So this is just the OB we again, just keep practicing. Um So I'm gonna hand it over to CJ and he's gonna just talk to you about his personal experience. Thanks Mario. Uh We'll also have go over with us uh when we go into questions to answer what you have. So I'm just gonna flick back as well. I'll mention some things. Uh the QR Codes here, these have the feedback I got from the interview and the feedback from the self assessment. If you want to read these, it might just give you some clues. For example, you can see the bits that I slipped up on when I was doing the clinical scenarios. It mentions things that you forget. And I think it's really important when you think about at Eat. E is one of the structures we're taught. So when we're assessing a patient, we say yeah, this is how we're going to do it and you don't wanna miss anything and you do it in that order of importance and it allows you to free yourself up mentally to kind of think about, you know, what is the thing that we need to treat or whatever? It's a structure to help you not miss anything. And sometimes we're used to just doing this, you know, where we don't, we just do something. But in this scenario, in the interview, because it's online, you need to verbalize and it's very easy because we're so used to doing these things but not talking about it so much. Whereas in this, we very much have to say everything we're doing. So it might be helpful to look through those. And again, with the selfassessment evidence, just to get an idea of how I presented it and then what they said about it, it might be helpful to you, it might not. So for the management scenario presentation, this is the question that was put to me last year and I had to prepare a three minute er, scenario and that, and then the scenario I had was about a patient complaint. So just, er, flicking back to this one here, the presentation even they vary the question. It's going to be about leadership teamwork. I think the person I was, I looked in, I spoke to senior trainees to me and the question they face was essentially the same as what I had. So it will be about something like that. And as Marre said, it's about rehearsing, preparing for it and also anticipating the kind of questions that come up because it's about leadership and teamwork. The questions that come up are always going to be maybe similar. So tell me a prob a difficulty of doing teamwork or something like that. So there are things that you can already have answers for. What's the difference between a leader and a manager and things like that? But also anticipate if you give a specific example that can lead to specific questions. So think about that and when they mark you what they mark you is on content presentation skills and how you do with questions. So obviously, it makes sense that it is preprepared, makes sure your content is excellent because you have the time to make it excellent. But then without addressing presentation skills and questioning, that's two thirds of it, which is also very important. So make sure you're very good at presenting it and then present it to a range of people who will then present you with a range of questions and you might find that someone, each person you present to and then questions you on. It might give you something that you didn't think of as a po potential question that can come up or you didn't ask. So try and get that kind of input when it comes to the scenarios, the management, these are generally not the clinical kind of things. It's not an at e but it's like management clinics or struggling colleagues, that kind of thing. It focuses on the communication interpersonal skills, leadership teamwork, and it does link to your SAT scenarios. So in some ways, what you internalize about when you're preparing for the SAT of the M SRA or what you and what you read in these interview books about how to deal with these scenarios. There will be crossover, I guess the difference is that when you have sat for the M SRA, that's very much these kind of artificial things where you have to try and get in the head of the person who's wrote that scenario. It can be a bit weird. Whereas this one is much more, you have two assessors who themselves are consultants and they want to see how you almost handle this. So you have to kind of handle it within the guidance that's there, but they're also expecting kind of reasonable answers, sensible answers. So just be aware of what things that can happen. The one I got was a patient complaint. And if you look at my feedback, the thing that I didn't really necessarily do is I didn't think of it from the consultant point of view. We're all when you get put before, I'm sure all of you have kind of had some kind of stimulation where someone's got a patient complaint, we talk about pals, we talk about all of that, but you don't think about it necessarily with the consultant or something else. So uh advice I give there is thinking about kind of stakeholders in anything, there's different stakeholders, there's the patient, there's the patient's family, there's the p members of staff, there's the wider public. So think about those things as well with the clinical scenarios. In my one, I had essentially a trauma scenario and I think this is very common from people I've spoken to who've done the interview in previous years they were or is it something like you're in recess? This is coming uh with your at E make sure you've practiced it. So you're familiar with the different kinds of trauma. So it might be something abdominal, it might be something, you know, more kind of there's a big fracture or something like open fractures. It can, there's different parts of the at they could focus on, it could be very much an airway problem. So make sure you've when you go through practicing your at, make sure you're comfortable with all of it. But then make sure you put yourself having done some practice of the different kind of problems you could have in a trauma scenario. So you're confident about that and have this kind of slick introduction where you say, OK, I'm gonna address them, assess this patient by these principles. Cos it shows that you're having those thoughts already and obviously don't miss the things that, you know, pelvic blinders, those kind of make sure you have those. My second clinical scenario was a kind of typical ward based thing. Um I think my one was a unwitnessed fall. Um, so these are all things that you'll be very familiar with. And I think it's important with this that you don't. So sometimes when you're on the board and you come across this, you think, oh, not again. But you're, you're so familiar with this. It's easy sometimes that when you're verbalizing the interview that you think, um, you just go what you normally do and you, you forget to say things also, it's important. So the one I had uh I talked about how you assess the patient, the whole at e you know, do a ct head, whatever and so on and so forth. But I didn't think about, for example, ding for an unwitnessed ha so this that follow up further management. So remember in these clinical stations to fully kind of go through everything, the book that I said, I'm not trying to sell the book to you. I'm just saying that's the book that was recommended to me and people have told me and it was my experience as well. If not word for word, there are very similar scenarios. So make sure you've looked at that. It's well worth doing that. The clinical station is ma marked on those three bullet points at the bottom. So it's thinking about it's not just your clinical skills and knowledge, but also how you function on depression and prioritization and how you communicate. So again, having a good structure and being able to communicate everything you're saying clearly. It makes it easier for them to assess you and give you marks. It means that, you know, they are more happy with you. So if you fumble things, then it's a question. Ok. Did they say that? Did they not say that? Whereas if you're very slick in your delivery, then what I think? Yeah, they said that it's done. It's easy. Now with the portfolio, I didn't have a portfolio station this year from reading the guidance. What they've said is they'll assess your portfolio and look at the evidence beforehand in 10 minutes and then they'll have the station where they select to the domains to discuss with you each having five minutes before that and then they're gonna mark you according to some framework that they've come up with. So they're gonna mark you based on the conversation, all your portfolios are going to be individual. Everybody is teaching. But what teaching you did is different. So essentially you have to make sure that everything you put in your portfolio, you know it inside out, you're very passionate about it. You can speak about it because you don't know which two domains are gonna come up. It's important to be able to have that practice of talking about all the things that you've done. And as my said, if you've done teaching and you've got feedback for it, it's no good to have said, oh yeah, I have feedback for it but not know what the feedback said and how you've changed what you're gonna do in the future. Uh, the other thing I'll just mention about the management scenario that I just remember my personal experience actually, uh, at the time of the interviews, er, they had a bit of a, because of the strikes when I was having the interviews, they moved interviews around. So, unfortunately, my interview got date, got changed and I actually was a little bit under prepared. I felt for the presentation, I fumbled it, but I was able to turn that into something that I said in the interview saying that the unexpected happens. So remember that even if things that are unexpected happen in your interview, it's how you come back from those and how you use it. So make sure that you and these structures that we've talked about these structures that we've talked about earlier in the uh talk today. These ones, they're just tools you'd use, whether you use them or don't use them is up to you and how you use them as well. Again, it's going to be very individual. But what these allow you to do is given something that's unexpected. You can formulate a way of approaching that. Even if it's something you was surprising to you, you can f pick one of these structures and use it when you drive. If th those of you are drivers, you don't necessarily think about you know, shifting the gears m putting your indicators, checking your mirrors, all those things you do it automatically these structures that we've told you about. You'll find them in the books, you'll find them online. That's just the beginning they're there to help you um approach the situations that you get presented in the interviews. So I think what we'll do now is I'll just mention about job rankings. The reason to mention about job rankings when we're talking about interviews is they are a concurrent thing that happens at the same time. So it's well worth remembering that there's a lot of jobs to rank and the way they are in a so obviously, the doctors can be different regions, different themes, some of them actually just be generic themes and some don't have the CT two parts mentioned. Um The way it is an Aureo it comes exports as an XL file. But my experience was that each job had its own single box where it was all free text. So it can be a little bit diff difficult to start filtering them by the job, combination themes and location because of how it's done as a free text in there. So it's well worth if you have some bodies who are also going to be at that stage, getting together and trying to make a spreadsheet or just leaving yourself adequate time to organize these. Remember when it comes to se three applications, the jobs you've done in core training are very important because effectively, assuming you apply for ST three at the start of C D2, you only really have 18 months of core training to get everything together before you make that application and pushing it off to be later. So what's taking a year out or whatever you can do that? But there is a disadvantage and it's a system called N number. So N number is effectively defined, There will be a definition in all the S TT three application guys, but it usually is defined as the number of years you've worked as a doctor post foundation. And what they do is if you're applying CTT, that number is one. If you're taking a further year out, it becomes two and they start dividing your points for each of the sections by that N number. And what this means is effectively every year you'd have to have done, for example, an extra audit to keep your portfolio competitive. So there's a purpose to it, which is to mean that you need to be having continual activity. But delaying application does have that struggle for you. And therefore, when you're thinking about job ranking, it's important that if you have a particular career in mind that you look at the ST three applications, for example, for general or vascular or whatever it is, you look at those ST threes and you think is there a way I can optimize myself for this? And even if you don't have a specific one you've committed to, it's important to look at all the general ones. And I, the other examples I'll give is one, for example, say you're not sure about a specialty having, if you've got a rot, looking at rotations that have that specialty and as your core train to try it out, it's no use having that. Then at the end of your CT two, perhaps because then you have to put the applications for the ST three before you've tried it out or for example, say you want to do general surgery. Part of the things that gets you points in general surgery is having done a certain number of appendix, ectomy cases as ST S or ST U. And if you have had your alternate rotations like orthopedics or ent at the start of your CT and then it's your s your CT, your qua general surgery heavy at the end, the disadvantage of this is that your opportunity to do appendicectomy is going to be less at the start when you want to build up your case numbers in preparation for this. So it's just wise to think about UST three when you're doing the job rankings. So I think at this point, we'll stop talking and we'll give you an opportunity to answer some questions if you have any uh for us. And I hope that what we've said has been a bit helpful to you if there's three things I can consider to take away from this. We had some QR S up. You can easily find this for Google searching, but read what the interview is about because there have been changes, but they do give guidance there. So it's important to know what they're looking for. Two, there are some good resources out there, particularly this book, I'd recommend for medical interviews in general, the book on the right. But this book had a lot of good scenarios. And thirdly it make sure you practice and prepare for this adequately. So preparation is the thing that's going to make you be the best you can be in this. So at this point, we'll answer your questions. Obviously, you're at this point, you're at the application point. So your application deadlines just is now approaching. And the first thing to do is the M SRA exam, but just remember that some of the stuff you do for this, whether it's clinical stuff or whether it's your SAT stuff, it can be helpful then later in the interview. And as soon as you've given that exam, you need to go straight into interview preparation. So at the end of the CT, we will have to compete for ST two. Yes. So the exceptions to this are, well, if you're not apply to say you're an academic trainee, you'll be on a run through. If you apply to a program that is run through, then obviously you're different you're ST one, ST two. So leadership speech, uh can we use clinical? Yes. So you can use clinical and nonclinical examples. It's a very individual thing about um the, the leadership. So going back to my question, uh reflecting your experience of leadership within a team. Um and it's more about if you look here, how will this experience be useful as a core surgical trainee? So essentially whatever you pick to talk about, it has to be something where you can draw out the attributes of a good team player and a good leader. So it doesn't matter whether it's clinical or nonclinical. And actually, you could use multiple examples for me. If you read my feedback, I talk about, I think Duke of Edinburgh, that was just a kind of an introductory thing and I talked about something else. But what is important with this at the end of the day is that you're show you what you're trying to do is sell yourself and see why you have these qualities and what level makes you, what is a good course, surgical training and then link the two of them. How do you possess the qualities that make you a good trainee? So when you come to the leadership speech, it's, it's difficult to answer ex er the specific examples without knowing who you are. But it's, you just mean to find the things that demonstrate that uh just in case I wasn't clear, yes, you had to compete for an ST three place. Again, when can you buy for a TL sequence courses? Um So ATL S and C Crisp, if you go on R CS website, you can find them there. The other thing you can do is depending on where you are, you can look in the depart the surgical department and you can see who the tutor is, who organizes these. So for example, in Chesterfield, I know the general, the general sur there's a general surgical consultant who does the ATL S ones and you can approach them and ask, do you have these, uh what I would say is that you don't necessarily have to have done these courses if you want to do well in the clinical er scenarios, an at E will get you where you need to be. And if you've read the ATS book on top of that, that's excellent because remember they're looking for someone who's applying to be a co surgical trainee. It doesn't mean you have to have done ATS already. Of course, it would be very helpful. Uh The reason I'm saying this is that if you do ATL S or CRIS as a core trainee, it's funded, obviously, if you do it beforehand, you have to pay 100 and 50 lbs for the ATL S and I can't remember the cost of CS, but it's quite expensive. So just bear that in mind. Um You can usually find the PDF for the books free somewhere. But if you're planning to do those courses beforehand, you will be paying for them. Uh If you are a foundation trainee, the budget, the study budget might your PPD might allow you to cover that with, that might be to put the money for that. So it is 130 now. So we're moving into the lunch break time. Um So the orthopedic session is scheduled to start at quarter past two. You're more than free to ask more questions. So I'll stay here maybe for another 15 minutes or it, it depends if you have questions or not. Otherwise we can you go for your lunch and come back for the orthopedic sessions. Um I don't know if God, if you've got anything to add to what I've said. Um I can see in the chart. Yeah. Sequest was 700. Very expensive. No, II think you guys covered most of the bits uh when uh and you touched on the ST three as well. That is really important. You have to think ahead and uh in the interview. Yeah. As someone else, leadership speech, yes, you can use both clinical and nonclinical examples. So it like kind of, it will depend but it does not depend a lot on your example. It does depend how you have presented it. So basically what they are looking for is that you have some leadership qualities because as a co trainee or as a like a surgical doctor in your career. They need you not to be just a doctor or just to treat a patient, but to manage the team around. Because surgical career, it's, it's a big team in theater. You have a big team to manage in boards as well or in the critical scenarios like the trauma scenarios that comes as a big team to manage. So you should have those leadership skills in this example. Basically what you need to do, you need to tell you briefly touch on your experience and then show how you're going to use those transferrable skills in your co surgical training. Uh When you are a co surgical trainee, for example, if I have done uh led a team of uh teaching or of running a course, like I did a vaccination leading course where I was actually leading a team of vaccination. So I just have to tell them that this, this is my, my uh takeaway points were to delegate tasks to people solving the problems, heading the team, knowing what the feedbacks are and then working on those feedbacks, make sure I'm calm. So all those skills are needed when you will be doing any leadership activity as a trainee. So it could be an example, it doesn't matter. And no, there is no difference between Act one and ST three. I would say uh I, I'm an Interna International Medical graduate and uh the system in UK is very good it is fair to everyone. And yeah, so I've done the co surgical training. The only sometimes people sometimes say that they have a language barrier uh because obviously English is not their first language. But uh if you will practice enough that will take care of it. And otherwise the system is quite fair. So I ii can tell you a little small trick. So basically all the interviewers, it's not a subjective assessment that they do. It's not like they like you or they not don't like you and accordingly, they will mark you even interviewers, they have a set criteria on marking you. So for example, uh there's a trauma scenario, a patient comes uh who fell from a ladder and they will give you like, how would you manage a patient? You have been called uh in the emergency department. How would you manage now? So you have to go from A to E. So when you will go to A to E every A to E, there's an only not one letter, there are two letters. So you will say that this airway and also have to think about the CC spine immobilization. Then that would be breathing. I would be looking for pneumothorax. I would be looking for hemothorax. And then what would you do? How would you check for it? Like I would check the tracheal angle. I would check if there's any deviation, I would do the inspection, palpation, percussion auscultation. What are the findings you're looking for, you're looking for, wheeze, you're looking for absent breath sounds and then what you are going to do, like if you think that it's a tension you're going to do needle thoracotomy, if you think that it's a uh pneumothorax, you're going to do chest train. So all these things, even the interviewers, they have kind of, you know, tick points. So, like if you have said c spine immobilization, that would be a tick. Yes. Yes. So the candidate has said this. So it's a set criteria. It's so I don't think there's a chance for bias in it. Uh just because you're international or you're not from this country, it's a very standard set criteria and they are just base assessing your skills as a doctor, as a surgeon. So it the the how this will come is but practice, the more you practice, the more it will happen. The example Mariott was saying before like that analgesia thing that was actually me, like when you do all these things continuously, you say it multiple times, sometimes you skip, you know what to say. But in the exam interview stress, you sometimes skip a one or two things. But those they are, they are counting all the points, all small, small points. So you think it's a small thing. But again, there are points for all small small things. If you have said airway, if you have said chest pain, if you have said auscultation. So if you said like if you activated the max hemorrhage protocol or not, if you did put out a trauma call or you're not like it's not just about the patient, all the things that go around, you have to see if you delegate task. So all those things are important and that takes for it. So II think that's the most of it. Practice, practice, practice, that's the most efficient, voice it out, practice with the team around just to add to that. So difference between starting from CT one ST three, remember core trainees are a sho grade, whereas ST three is a registrar grade. Uh So when you think about the thing for core training, there are some eligibility criteria for core training uh such as you haven't done more than a certain amount of time in surgery. And there's a friend of ours who is in orthopedics, um who actually had maxed out that time. So they're having to apply straight into ST three. So in terms of starting or it's a different starting training from CT one to ST three, it's apples and oranges, it's two different things because core training is the training program that makes you ready to be that registrar which is ST three onwards. So whether or not your international me is two different things. Core training is an sho grade ST three onwards is a registrar grade. Um So you need to think about which is the program that is appropriate for you, which is the program you're eligible for. Um There are people who sometimes they don't get into the core surgical training program and you look at the alternative things because there are the old system in this country used to be before they had a national recruitment of core training or registrar training. They had it at local sites, you would apply and there are some places that still in addition, do that and you have this program and at the end of it, you've got a certificate saying you've completed the equivalent thing. Um If you can, it's better to do the nationally recruited course surgical training because that's just looked on more favorably. And I think one of the registrars, what they said is wherever you can just go to the official training programs. But with regard to your question starting from CT one or ST three, it may, it depends on what your eligible thoughts appropriate for you because those are both uh of the official recognized training program. It just depends at what point you're entering at. Are you entering as an sho or are you saying that you've completed the sho thing and you are appropriate to be a registrar and then you need to make sure you have the necessary qualifications. So you have the whatever they consider the evidence for ST three. And generally speaking, if you've gone through all the trainings here, um competing core training shows that you have the competencies to then be eligible to apply to ST three um discussing clinical concerns. Do we just run with an answer saying eight to e initial management and tell them everything we're thinking. So this is where it comes into timing. So in one of the, the previous uh slides I mentioned in, in the general tips, we have this thing that we say about um answer the question, then time instruction, thought process and be calm, confident. So answer the question. Um in your trauma scenario, you need to make sure that you've been covered the all the important things. So you will have to have covered a at some point in this. But if you're going through at E and you're having an inordinate focus on airway, you're saying every little thing about airway, but this patient has no airway problem. But then the big thing that they have is an open leg fracture that that's no, that's no good. So you need to think about your at E when you do an at so often in these scenarios, if you're doing an at E the inter, there's, there's two ways they can look at it. They might be helpful in that they interrupt you and say, you know, that's fine. This person's airway is fine, they're talking to you, go on continue or they might just let you just run with it. So when you're looking at a a scenario what you're thinking, you only have the limited time, you have a five minute scenario and they may have follow up questions they want to do with you. So this is why we say practice your at e have a system by which you can see all the important points for airway or like how you assess it quickly without becoming bogged down. So you can move through it and get to wherever their critical problem is. Because even though it's a trauma patient and in real life, they can have a lot of problems. Typically for these scenarios, there's going to be one kind of thing that they're gonna be focusing on. Like it could be some kind of, er, kind of euro kind of trauma or it could be like there's a, the thing that they're going for is a splenic trauma or it could be like the open fracture kind of thing, usually there will be some kind of focus of this. So when you're going to the, at it's important you say other, other bits but then you need to make sure you get to the point, that's the main focus of the clinical problem that they're trying to, that's gonna be the test in this within the time. And as you said, so everything you're thinking about the scenario, make sure you verbalize your thought process, obviously, be clear about it, but sure that you're thinking these things, so you've assessed their airway, whatever and go through. So yes, you do say that, but don't make sure you essentially do all of that, but make sure you don't miss the key bit of the scenario. Let you say this one. It's fine. Uh So no, the in the previous point, I was going to say like one practical tip that I was given when I was starting my interview process last year was uh that A two E you should try to finish your A two E in, you know, 2 to 2.5 minutes. So basically, again, like she just said, very rightly said, you have, you can't dwell on it. You have to just uh touch upon the main things that are asked or that are actually the things you'll be looking for in that patient. Like I told you the example, a patient who fell from ladder. So there could be a, if he's talking, then there's no point in talking about airway a lot. You can talk about c spine. You can, you can just brush up on it. That is c spine immobilization. I'll use the triple immobilization method and then touch it and then you'll go to breathing. So you would expect some fractures, some uh pneumothorax, hemo. So you will just briefly touch on what are the things you're looking for rather than covering all those things that can come in there and the breathing. And they do have follow up questions if you just did your A two in five minutes and you don't have time for uh the follow up questions. You will miss up on points. Definitely. So you need to finish it, give them time so that they can ask you follow up questions. So again, see said rightly, it will, it really depends. Some examiners do say that, ok, it's fine. Let's go on some, but some will let you talk. Some will let you talk and you have to decide that when I'm stopping to talk and for procedures we have done outside. How do we log this on E logbook? I think uh you can uh do it on the E log book. You make a profile, it, it, it helps you, you can actually do it uh the hospital numbers that you have there for the patients. So in the hospital, you can select the other hospital, there are criterias there. II know a lot of people who have added a lot of cases from outside and even when they apply for like ST three directly, they do apply all their cases which they have done in back home. So it's really helpful. What I would also mention about this is when it comes to the evidence for your surgical procedures, you just need one consultant here to have signed all the pages of your log book, so name their consultant, whatever surgeon GMC number. So you log this as you're able. So if you, if there is an option and you log up for the procedure to put unknown consultant, not the best thing you can do that. And again, I'm not sure with places, I've never tried to log one that's outside the UK, but either it's possible or you'll put someplace that's unknown. Um Just to emphasize the point that Marriott made again before, say this was the domain of the port. They chose to focus on, make sure you know what's in the logbook and think about it again. So tasty week. So I did a tasty week in vascular surgery. If I've said that as part of my evidence, then they expect me to say what I might have learned on it, what I might have seen on it. And in your log book, if there's things that you've said you've, you know, interesting procedure. So I have this one time that I saw this rib excision. So again, make sure when you've done all these procedures that you've logged it and if you're logging procedures outside of the UK, you might be logging procedures that are different to what's done in the UK. So the main way of how you approach this particular surgical problem, some procedures we don't do in the UK and they're done in other places. So make sure then that if you have a log book that's different, that you can talk about that, I think we'll stay for a few more minutes. If anybody has questions and then we'll go off. Yeah, I can see there's, there's 40 about 40 people still there. Oh, we have the question. My log report only gives a very broad overview of what procedures I have done. So it's not like prompting a question. I'm just the port fo station hasn't been there for a, for a long time. So the advice that I'm just saying there is that make sure that there's stuff you can talk about because if they talk about the commitment to special thing, you that that domain, it's important that you have stuff to talk about. So if there's something that's particularly, you know, interest if there's a procedure, so um you know, say you went to uh an organ retrieval or something like that, there was something that interesting in your love book, that's something you can talk about. So, you know, know your numbers, so know off the top of your head, how many of that particular operation you've been with? Um So essentially just know what you've done. It's no good just, you know, submitting this but not knowing what you've submitted. That's what I'm kind of getting at with the thing. But for example, if all of your cases are urology, if there's a vast majority of urology in your log book, then they might say, are you interested in urology? What's your experience in urology? You know, how come you're going to these theaters or is that what you, you know, so that kind of thing might come up. Uh We restart up to lunch. We're aiming for quarter past two. I think the questions that you're asking to prompt. So as you just said before COVID, uh the interviews used to happen in person so that they used to ask questions about your portfolio and what you have done. And sometimes you have to explain what you have done in the logbook as a co trainee, you just have to see what they are looking for as a co trainee. They are not expecting you that you can do the whole procedure or that you know how to do it fully. They are basically looking that you are adapted to the theater environment, you know, the basic things like how to scrub in how to be in the theater environment, how to maintain uh a ESIs, how to communicate with the team. And you have the basic idea in assisting as well. Uh uh during the like when, when the surgery is going, when a consultant is doing the procedure, you know how to assist, you have the basic ideas of the things. So even that is the thing that they're looking for from a court, like for the person who is applying for a court trainee, they do not expect you. So in the logbook, if you will see most of the cases that they ask for, that have to have a good how to be in a theater environment and you just need to communicate it well to them that you do have experience and, and if you will have, I think if special procedure they might ask me, OK, what are the key things that you have to keep in mind? So, but they won't ask into the core, core concepts of the procedure. They don't, they don't have, I think the internet connections a little bit. Uh not there gov, So he might be reconnecting but just like what he said, they won, you know, be expecting to know how to say all the steps of the procedure. I'm just suggesting ways that you can just further enhance yourself for that portfolio if you know, kind of what you've done, that means you can talk about it passionately. Um So that's important and then everything he said about, you know, knowing that theater environment, knowing the team uh co teaching sessions. So I think it depends on how you, yes, any teaching you've done counts. I'm not sure what you said about co teaching. I'm assuming you mean about, for example, doing presentations, one person does one bit, one person does another. Yeah, that will count as teaching delivering teaching. Uh It depends how it's evidence. It depends how you frame it. If you frame that your co teaching was mainly the other person. The other person wrote the presentation, the other person did the most important bits and I just did a little bit here, obviously, that's less valuable as teaching. If you're an equal contributor or you're the main contributor that's different. Uh And you'll remember this, that, you know, the way of thinking, for example, co teaching is, you know, you're working as a team there. So that's the kind of maybe angle of putting it without saying one person's the main person and the other person's not as important, think of it as teamwork and focus on what you have contributed to that team, how you've led in that team. And obviously, when it comes to feedback, then you need to think about how you've got feedback. How does it affect the teaching as a whole? Of course. But then how is there, is there any individual feedback for you? Because as part of this, you need to present your feedback as part of the evidence that you're gonna present. So if they essentially, if they decide to ask about your teaching sessions, what are you going to say? You know, like, what did you, what did bits did you teach? How did you contribute? What did you lead? What was the overall impact of that team? And then when there was feedback, you know, you can talk about what the overall feedback was for the teaching, but then what was your individual feedback as well? So you just need to think about your part in all this. But yes, it will count as teaching. OK, guys, we'll be live for a few more minutes. I think, uh, if you have any questions, please ask, this is the time to ask the questions. We'll try our best. Uh, but I think due to time constraints, otherwise we'll go off and then let you guys have lunch and prepared for the next sessions. This orthopedic is coming down your favorite girl. That's what I'm saying. I will briefly, I can touch upon the end number. I don't know if people are interested or that would be too much because now it's time just to concentrate on MSR rather than thinking about ST three mention, mention about end number. And then at 155 if there's no further questions, we'll uh stop broadcasting and we'll come back at 215 mention about N number that's useful. I can show you a bit of a portfolio that now I have to apply on AC three. Uh I don't know if you guys can see this. So this is for the trauma and orthopedic surgery that's coming up uh next, next year. Uh So if you will see her, the numbers starts from the post foundation program or two years after your primary medical qualification if you're an img like me. So that's how you just count from the clinical experience that you have after the two years of finishing your medical school. So you will count the time you have worked uh in any speciality uh in the medicine. So the nonclinical jobs that they're talking about is like you were a teacher, you were anatomy demonstrator, you were in academics. So, so something related to medicine. And then according to this number is this. So you, it's pretty evident. So suppose your end number is three. So now if you will go to the next questions, so like first or third, so if you at number one, if you have one first or paper, but you will get two points. But if your n number is three, you need to have at least six publications so that you can be counted because it will be divided by three. So that takes a whole lot of that just changes the game. I know you can, you have to do all these things like papers, audits, oral presentations. So this all numbers they are added and they get so high and it's difficult every year for you to get all these things. So it's better to think of the ST three application forward as well. If like if, if you're applying this year for co training, I know there's not a lot of time you can do. But if you are not started yet, you're thinking to start do keep your ST three applications in mind and do start to make portfolio for this because in the court training, you won't get a lot of time to make this whole present whole portfolio. Uh So this is a classical one for uh trauma and orthopedic surgeries. The other things I think that we were talking about uh will come here. There are some things which will be similar like involvement in the leadership involvement in the teaching and uh audits and I PS that you have done. So this all will count whatever you have done before as well. So like whatever portfolio you can prepare before your co trainee, if you have time, obviously not for the people who are applying this year. Uh then it will help you a lot in your coining uh applications and get you prepared for ST three because uh CT two, it will end uh in CT two will end in August. But before that into the previous year, uh October, the applications open like for me uh next year, August, I'm starting CT two. But in October next year, there would be applications open for ST three. So that uh whenever I finish my CT two, I have to start T three straight away. So there's a time lag essentially six or more months are just gone into this process. So those don't take co training as two years, which you don't have two years to uh prepare your ST three applications, you have 18 or I would say even less than that because there is so much trainings and workshops and teachings that go on co trainees and then you're on call commitments. So you don't get a lot of time in this. So whatever portfolio you can make before that, that would be helpful a lot. And plus that adds everywhere that adds everywhere in your application it speaks up. You don't have to take only one example again and again, you could have done something else in leadership. You can say something else in your leadership speech, you can do something else in your leadership question if they ask something. And so that, that really helps you have to think a little bit ahead. I hope it uh clears a little bit out on the end number and it, it is there in many applications, it's not just in orthopedics. CJ would know about vascular applications, vascular and general surgery, uh uh general surgery. They've taken it out vascular surgery. They still have, they still have it. Yeah, I don't know. Obviously these things fluctuate from year to year. The purpose of the N number I think is to stop or prevent a situation where you have people who are very experienced. So essentially the exam going back to or once told me, you know, um they were a trust grade but they said always do the training program. The mistake he made was not taking the ST three number when he could have because now he's trying to seize it and it's much harder. So I think the purpose of this end number is in a way to stop people who are very, very experienced who working as trust grades from acing interviews and coming right through. Um But ensuring that anyone who's applying to ST three has in the people who are appointing you to the training program has in the, those people's lives has an appropriate amount of portfolio developed for their stage of training. Uh Currently working in Geno sho year two and number two part B should I ST three or CT again? Uh Yeah, so it depends upon the competencies that are required for the ST three application. Um So I don't know if there's any other things you have to have signed off. I've, I've not personally looked at how you go straight to ST three if you were eligible to go to ST three. you might as well anyway, because the thing is if you're going to go to core training, that will increase your n number further, which will make your life harder to apply to ST three eventually. So if you were eligible to do ST three would probably suggest doing ST three. There's a person, this is my personal opinion. I would suggest doing ST three because otherwise you're just driving your own number up. Um Assuming you're eligible to do, I'm not sure all the things that if you've not done a core training program, what you need to prove or submit to say that you can apply for ST three. Uh So, um it again, like she just said, it depends what level you are. If you say year two. So like the, you might be aware about the 18 months uh limit that there is. So if you have 18 or more months in surgical specialties, after your foundation program, you cannot essentially apply for CT training, you're not eligible for it. So to get your competence signed for co training that you need to do for ST three applications. So the basic idea of all these applications or all these pathways that are made in the UK is all the people. They are going to give the tag of a consultant or a trainee. They want that they have similar competencies as they would expect from a normal training person is in training. So if you are applying for ST three, but you have not done the official co training pathway, they would just expect that you have done, you have similar competencies as a co trainee would achieve in his training. Uh like uh there is a crest form that people do. Like I've, I've done a crest form. So I didn't, I'm an IMG so I did a crest form to prove my foundation year competencies to prove that I have the same competencies as a foundation year doctor who have gone through the official foundation year program in UK. Similar, there is a est form. It's I think certificate of re uh to apply for, to enter into specialty training, higher specialty training. So it's a, there is a est form that you need to get signed. So if you will open that est form, basically, it has all the competencies that you need to get ticked. And it's, it's a very fair system. It's again, very similar. They all, they just expect you to have those competencies as a coin you would have at the end of CT two. If you have all those competencies, if you can get them signed, go for CT ST three straight away, then uh but because it's need to keep in mind as he just said, your end number will keep on increasing. Yeah, one year surgical. So essentially you are eligible for a CT again, a CT as well at this point of time. But it depends how much experience do you have and, and what, what, what things you have on your portfolio because in ST three applications, it whatever they are doing the interviews, what they expect, how would you be on the day one? If you're doing a co training interviews, they would expect that you are eligible to be a day one co trainee for ST three application, they are assessing you that you are eligible to be a day one registrar in that speciality. So if you think that you have enough competencies to be a day one registrar, go for ST three, then it it, it will be definitely good. You will be saving two years. But if your competence, your portfolio does not reflect it, then it would be harder. So it, it all depends on what evidence you have. What portfolio do you have? Agree with everything Laura has said. And the thing I'll suggest is um, if you have consultants in your department, you're in general surgery, I would speak to them, er, because someone somewhere will be involved in the recruitment process and they might be able to tell you specifically because there are people who come straight to apply to ST three. And as a result, they had to submit the right documents to say I am eligible to be a day one registrar. So find the consultants in your department who know these things and ask them, this is my position and I want to apply to ST three and they'll be able to tell you what documents it is because it's not only a question of whether you are feeling yourself ready to be the day one registrar and your portfolio reflects it. There is other documentation that you're gonna have to fill for them to show that you've done the necessary things, you've done the M RT S part B obviously. So you've passed those things, but there may be other things, so speak to the consultant of the department and make sure that you fill the, you can fill out the paperwork things for this application that you need to. I think we'll wrap up there just so it's a proper 15 minute break. If there are any more questions we can try, try to answer them in the brain. Just give me one second. Uh I'll, I'll give you a small example. So if you will look on this ST three or two applications, if you look for any of the applications, there is the form there, a certificate of read to enter higher surgical training. So this is what you need to get filled and signed from your consultant, whatever specialty you're applying to, uh, to prove that you have the competencies of the co training. And if you get it signed well and good, you're ready for the ST three applications. Ok? I think, I think we should wrap up now. So at least we should have some break and if there would be any questions we can take in the next session. Ok. Yeah, folks have a good, have a good lunch break. See you back at 215 f for the next orthopedic msk talk. Uh, we're gonna stop broadcasting now.