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why everyone hope you managed to grab a C or coffee and structural legs. So just to let you know, there's been a slight change to the program, and there's being slight. Eso issue with the plastics talk. So we're moving the plastics talk, which will still happen, thankfully, to have been stepping in at half past four. And so now, instead of the plastics talk, will be having the academic surgery talk by Ms Catherine Love Grove. We'll follow that with the innovation Surgery Talk by William Ballston On There morning were three max fax in urology is planned, and then plastics will be pinned in the end. I hope that makes sense to everyone. I'll put something in the shop shortly, but and we're going to be starting now and instead with academic surgery for Ms Catherine Love Grove, who is a urology, a CF based in Oxford. So I'll hand over to her and she, Emily can ever and see my stick clean. Yep. Well, good. Thank you very much. So like, and they said, Money's tight friends on, um, I'm an academic clinical. Sell it in urology in Oxford on the Oxford, wrapped for acid and also the osseous singling trainings. Bulletin editor. So a few things I thought I'd cover today are what have I done? What is the pathway? What is the academic training pathway? Who is it for? Where do you do it on what's good and what's not good about. So this is just a quick overview. I'm not gonna tell you an index, a personal history. But actually, when I was at school and and coming up too sick there, I thought, I want to study by a chemistry at love to do some drug discovery That's quite cool. Had already planned a gap here. Um, and then I realized very quickly I didn't want to be a biochemist, but fortunately had a gap. Your plan. So I re applied to medicine, did a gap here and woes in Malawi and applied to you cast on, then started medicine in Edinburgh on at that time, Adam, But was one of the few universities that didn't interview. They're rationale being some people amongst you won't want to be patient facing, and you might want to be a research doctor. And I was like, No, I don't think that's me. Not all. Um I then went and interconnected on my first real passionate medical school was anatomy. I find it fascinating. I love it. And I went to Kings College, London to do that for a year, and I got stuck in with my dissertation, which was related to a surgical education within the stream of urology and robot assisted surgery. I thought, This isn't so bad, actually. I mean, they're quite like my project. Maybe maybe it could. Orthopedics that ties in my love of anatomy with a bit of surgery and Scott good research, then realize I had a real passion for my urology project and urologist a specialty. I thought. I want to keep going with this research. I don't know that I want to be a researcher, but I then chose to transfer my clinical studies and do all of my clinical studies at King's College London. I'm going through university. Everyone said, Oh, you'll do research. You'll be an academic training. Was I? No, no, I won't buy state. I can't my hand in with a few research projects, tied up my dissertation and stayed involved in surgical education simulation and and then I did apply for the academic foundation pathway, and I did that in London for two years and everyone's at all. You'll then do the academic pathway through and through. And I thought, No, I won't and and actually then applied for academic clinical fellowship on my research to pick a spin from social education in urology to actually kind of more clinical with neurology and prostate cancer applied from academic Clinical Fellowship in Oxford. Because I was like, actually, I really do enjoy this, and I do want it to be part of my career bathroom on here I am today to inhibit years into the academic Clinical fellowship on my research, Slant has changed again, moving from cross prostate cancer to kidney stones on hopefully any year's time, we'll start a PhD, so that's just a little bit of iron. Me. But what is the integrated academic training pathway? So along the middle, this quite complicated diagram, but I'm going to try and explain it so long. The middle is your conventional training. You've got medical school foundation years, core training years on registrar training, and then you come out the other end. No, there are various things, so you have medical school the opportunities for students, selected modules or components, depending what you call them interrelated degrees. Then there's the foundation program. But in tandem is the opportunity to do the academic foundation program, which I believe that just renamed and S f g. And within that you have two years, and within the two years, one of your locations to a four month block will be related to research. Now, depending on where you do that, that might take different forms. It might be that you get a day, a week, or it might be that you take a four month chunk or it might be that you have a week every month. And that took up to the dina rate on yourself and your supervisor. Now there aren't foundation programs for every specialty that you want to do. But my advice there should be imaginative. So if you're interested in orthopedics, for example, don't many foundation programs, academic foundation programs with orthopedics. But if you think well, actually, I'm really interested in, um you know, uh, childhood pediatrics and, uh, pediatric orthopedics, for example, you could think, well, actually a primary health that might be a really good way of doing it because actually, GPS need to see a lot of the first presentations they might need to see a lot of adolescent knee pains on. You can think of it that way. Or, you might think, Well done. I could do it through the end of crying room and think about bone turnover, for example, on before you might have uninterested in and in education. You could do a medical education one. So just because there's no one within the specialty you're interested in doesn't mean that you can apply. So I actually did on academic program in general surgery, but I knew that the prostate was in charge of my program, was going to say, What would you like to do? And I was going to say I'd love to do some urology and he went great. Who do you want to work with? All th this up? Similarly, one of my colleagues who did the same academic foundation pathway. He wasn't even sure he wanted to do surgery, but he thought, actually, this is gonna be something that gives me skills on do you? We? He was asked at the start. What do you want to gain from your foundation program. And he went, I want to be able to do a meta analysis. I want to get those skills. And actually, it's much more about developing skills in research than it is making a groundbreaking discoveries or making huge amounts of progress about equipping you with with skills and making you think, Do I want to take this any further? Just don't want to do more research for no. So that's one option there. I will point out that you can move between the academic pathway and the clinical pathway of multiple points. So just because you haven't done an academic foundation program doesn't mean that you can't draw convenient for the wrong. Equally. Just because you do do the Academic Foundation program doesn't mean that you then have to you convey much, come back into the clinical pathway. So any of the core training years on day thick with a lint of accident in academic terms is the academic clinical fellow. So that's where I am, and that tends to be a two or three year depending on your program position were 25% of the time is that located in his academic on between yourself in your supervisor, that time continues in different ways. So I've had colleagues we throw out there. Three years have been two or three days a week dedicated to research equally. I, for example, had a day, had a day a week, and then I took a six month trunk between February and August of this year to actually take time away from the ward and focus purely on research on that is up to yourself. You supervise, and it depends on the project. Some people will then choose to do a PhD there after the idea of an academic clinical fellowship. Is that account set you up to do a PhD? It doesn't have to. You reached the end of a nakatomi clinical fellowship and say, I've had enough of this research. I just want to go back to clinical work. That is possible. Likewise, just if you haven't done an academic clinical fellowship doesn't mean that you can't send you a PhD between 62 S. T three free sample or any other point moving up to higher specialty training. The academic equivalent is called a clinical lectureship on that tends to be proportionate. 50% of the time is academic victim cents clinical, and then you can apply for higher fellowships. So the equivalent within within research off a consultant is what we call a clinician scientist on That takes you down the route of having an academic post affiliated with the university under hospital. On the end of the academic to clinical split will be very much up to the job. I've got consultants to do 80% research and 20% clinical. I've got something to 50 50 so the world is your oyster on. I think it's important to know that just cause you haven't had a background in research doesn't mean you can't. And just because you don't research doesn't mean that you can't go back into clinical work. So this is a very flexible pathway, despite the fact that it looks like a ladder. So what? Things to think about well at different points along the way, there is a different ratio of clinical times academic time. You might be thinking, I won't use basic science. I want to be in the lab. I want to learn cell techniques or you might think, No, I want to be involved in a clinical trial, and you can think outside the box and think along the line of innovation that engineering. So one of the options I was given was, you know, I could look into the different developments of lasers for use and kidney stone surgery and laser stone fragmentation. Equally, you might think along the kind of bone remodeling pathway if you're interested in orthopedics. So you wanted to think about the different materials with which we use joint replacement. It could be really multi disciplinary. So, for example, I'm a urology trainee on I'm going to have a supervisor who is a plastic surgeon on a supervisor who is an epidemiologist in an acute medic on my projects, going to be on kidney stones so you can really shape it. And that's one of the really fun things. And you will have an academic and a clue clinical supervisor, and you will need to make sure that you meet both competencies so the academic time isn't just sitting around and reading and thinking big ideas. There are competencies that you also have to have to meet on that does present a range of challenges. So who is it for It's not, for instance, and it's not for people who just have a real passion for the lab. I'm certainly not Einstein on D during my clinical Sorry during my research block, the six months I had this year spent most of the time trying and failing to keep cells alive so you don't need to have a background in it. I had no background and lab research, and I said that up front at my interview from my academic clinical first ship here in Oxford, and I said, I don't have a background in basic science, but I want to learn, and that's what it's for. It's actually having the ideas and having a passion for learning and different skills that you want to develop. You have to want to do it. Like I say, I think it's a very difficult job to do. If you don't want to do in the first place, have questions. But you don't need to have all the questions because your supervisor should be able to go into through and bring out the best in you. So there might be things that you've had Southern thoughts about. What? Why don't we do this a certain way or I had a patient, and I wonder if I wonder why we do that or what we could do. Or I feel that there's a real gap that needs to be addressed. And so you need to have some inquisitive nature about be prepared to multi task, and I have quite frequently spend time on my clinical days answering a research email and vice versa. And I get clinically meals when I'm on a research day and it's not. There's not a nice dividing line, is you? My hope. Think about what skills you have, but also what skills you want to. Where would you do it? I think there's some very important things here, So think about yourself on your mental. Who do you want to work with? That's quite important. Who do you want to supervise? You have a supervised other people before. Do you know them? Do you know, reach out to them, have a chat, send them an email and say I'm interested. Would you have time to have to meet up face to face if that's possible, if you live in the same city or if it's someone who's further away. See if you can schedule the teams call or a phone call. Do you already have a link with the department? So it might be that in your intestine and interrelated degree, you work for the certain department or you've already done the foundation program or your find A should training now and you have done a place in in general surgery and it was great. And you actually want to keep working with that department and apply for an academic clinical fellowship. So that's that might be something else on the project that takes a huge range off shapes and sizes. So some foundation programs are they're on. But they were very much we they were much, very much have a project. You apply, and you want to do it equally. I approached a supervisor who said, Oh, here, a range of options is, Do any of these interest you on? If not, you have a different idea, so it could be very different as well. So it's worth looking into and asking the right people. I'm not a huge thing. That I think is important regardless of whether you want to academic training or not, is your personal life where your family, where your hobbies. What matters to you? What's going to keep you going when you have a bad day at work? Because that is the thing that will come back to on drink. That's a very important thing. So don't don't underestimate the importance off your personal life and your family and your friends on D. That will be that you have for your art club or your sports team into thinking about where you might want to work in the country. Rosenbaum's The great Thing is, I get dedicated time to ask questions, to read papers to learn. Um, it's it's great and get amazing supervision, and you get to work with, um, very talented people on. The nice thing is that when your point for an academic clinical fellowship, for example, I know that I'm good to be here for the rest of my training. I have a lot of urology training number, so that training number is mine. So I know that I'm going to be here for at least eight years, and that's quite nice. And disadvantage is you got to serve two masters. You've got clinical and academic commitments. You've got supervisors on both sides. You expect you to be there all the time. They will send you emails and expect the response. They will say, Can you have a meeting? And it's I've got to go to clinic. I can't come and have a research meeting on etcetera. So you are saving two masters. Academia comes with its own stresses. It's not quite the same as having a stick patient on the ward, but there are still things that you need to do. It could be stressful with regards to date on management or yourselves not surviving or that can take many shapes and forms and on do you do also have certain achievements or certain target. So, for example, if you've got a grant, you need to fulfill that ground. People have given you money to do something. You need to show them that you've done it, and you need to demonstrate that you're able to publish on to come up with proposals. So can you secure funding to do a PhD kind of come up with a good research proposal? Can you present your research so the other people know what you're up to? The listed for both those on and on. So I'm going to finish their on a lot of people to ask questions on Go. Please do keep them coming. And if you have any questions and I don't cover, you don't have time to ask these. Drop me an email or send me a message or tweet on Twitter. Great. Thank you so much, Katherine. And there were a couple off questions. I'll feed our feet from the metal trap so someone has posted. They want to get better at medical statistics. Are there any courses or resource is that you'd recommend? And oh, I actually have a resource. Oh, go for it. What's your wrist know? So it just came to me. So I am, you know, personal interest. I'm I sit on Star Search Committee. So student order and research in surgery, which are a student like Collaborative. We've recently launched a free online platform called In cept's on be Run Basic models, taking through the basic study design and based it basic statistics. And it's pitched a pretty good level s. So I I'd have a look at in Septus the free resource, So yeah, definitely medical statistics at a glance is a good place. I think so. I've just finished doing them just on a medical student sticks course for the last week, and I think my take home message is You've got to have something you want to apply it to. You've got to have a question or a data set because otherwise it's like sitting time and deciding. I'm going to teach myself Spanish today and starting with the dictionary A A and that's just very dry, and you it's not gonna go in. So if you've actually got a question, you don't need to have a huge data set. You could have 10 patients before 10 patients after you could make it up. But I have a question that you want to ask rather than the theory. A. I personally would be personal advice. Sure, I'm on one more thing. Well, few few more questions, actually, since we have the time and so someone's also posted do a CFC need to apply for ST three or Reg Post? Um, no. Uh, it's the short answer. So you have a part of the A C F. You get a training number, so I started my ICS at ST a CT one ST one, technically, a zesty one. Because I have a training number you don't need to reapply. Right? Is my understanding from a specialty to you Definitely don't need to reapply within some specialties, and some Diener is they might ask you to benchmark, so that means that you need to be appointed ble. You're not at risk of losing your job. You just need to be good enough that if you had gone to interview, you would get a job somewhere in the country, it's m on. Be victims. Asked what industry opportunities for your research every hot? Well, yeah, so I actually have them and I will confess I've turned them done. Um, options have come along off in terms of work with people like Boston Scientific, because they do a lot of laser work. So one idea that one of my supervisors had was working with the math department and the physics department in the engineering department of Boston Scientific, and they would have been funding to go over to the States on do work with them in terms off, coming up with a model with regards to the water pressure with which you can fragment Stones s. So that was one option. And my research at the moment is actually taking the form of virginity basis of kidney stone disease. Andre the are there is a genetic research company out in San Francisco that my supervisor said to me, How do you feel about working abroad for a bit? And I was like, Yeah, I'm up for it And he said, How do you feel about going to some things disco to do some of your PhD? And this's what I mean about make sure you know what's important for your personal life, because I think many people would got a great opportunity and I just went, No, I'm really sorry. I don't want to do that. It's very important for me personally that I'm near my family on. I don't think that going to the other side of the world to nine hour different plans own to a culture in a community and a group of people who I don't know for six months, and it's going to be very good for me personally. And that was completely respected, actually. So while he would have been delighted if I said yeah, sounds great. I think equally he was like, No. Okay, you've made an informed decision on, but I have been to San Francisco, so I do know what it's like. It's not that I'm blindly putting something down. Great on be on a couple of things. Does it disadvantage you if you haven't done an AFP post when you apply for a CIA? I don't think so on. I wouldn't hide behind that fact either. Um, so don't be ashamed. Don't think that it's a barrier. I'm really passionate about the fact that academia should allow that flexibility. I think like I say, it's all about skills. And can you demonstrate that you have tried to develop some skills or you've had experience of developing skills, but you want to take them further in a research setting Just cause you have absolutely not. Just cause he's not on the Academic Foundation program doesn't not mean you cannot be in a CF on. I think last one. Are there any different specifications for the academic pathway application and where can I find it? Um, I'm not sure exactly. I think that means, you know, is there's specifications of a F B in a CF in stuff that great question and two months of that short answer. Yes. Second answer. Stay tuned. Because in February we're going to run a knack Ademola Surgery Career Day. It's quite similar to this that will be on evening in February. That's plan where we look at how the application process works, but in essence, both you have to apply separately as well as to the clinical path for both foundation on a CF. I'm going to presume that there are no people thinking of doing a C. Else. Here is a separate application where you have to, um, fill in some questions, whitespace questions. Or what is your experience of research for? What is your experience of manager, management and leadership? That's something else. Point out. You don't need to do science research. You can do on academic pathway in teaching or in management and leadership or research. So medical education it's a broad field, so you've got to do that. And then interviews are also different, so that foundation level there is a clinical station on on academic station, so your clinical station is a simple 80 someone sick. How are you going to treat them because they need to know that if you're going to take time away from your political job, that you are good, clinically and so there's that. And then the academic station is take the form of, AH, critical appraisal of an abstract so you'll be given an abstract, will be given 20 minutes to have an opinion on it to make it make notes, and then you have a chat. And personally, I find that quite fun because it's just a chance to have a discussion about a paper and to say I didn't think that was very good, but I don't think that was quite good. Or if I was doing this, I would do that. That foundation, um, at a cf level, he you have to still apply for course surgical training as well as the A CF. You need to be successful at course, surgical training application in order to take up your A CF post on the interview for an A CF takes the form off. It's tends to be a half hour interview. We can ask the range of questions, and you will get asked about yourself, and you will also be given an abstract or it's not necessarily an abstract. When I interviewed at Cambridge, I was given unlabeled grass was 20 minute. They were, like, Here is your thing to look out for 20 minutes and was on labeled graph. I was like, What I'm going to do 20 minutes looking at this blank piece of graph. So, yeah, just get used to chatting about an abstract about research reading. So I think New England Journal of Medicine are great abstracts to start reading. And because of easy to to read and to have thoughts over lovely thank thank you so much, Katherine. And that that's really useful when I'm, you know, gave another sort element of surgical training that it doesn't have to be a clinical grand name. Is it any time. Thank you. Um, so before we you know, we move on to our next talk, I'll actually be handing over to