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Summary

"Taking an F3 Year in Surgery" is an insightful discussion led by peer mentor Sarah from Australia, along with Core Trainee Aisling, who recently started a family. The session will cover why medical professionals should consider an F3 year in surgery, how to plan for it, and how to get one set up. It will also touch briefly on the core surgical training application process, the pros and cons of this path, and all the crucial dates. By attending the webinar, attendees can gain understanding from real-life experiences of the speakers and potentially get their burning questions answered during the Q&A session. This combines first-hand insight with practical advice to make informed career decisions in the medical field.
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Learning objectives

1. By the end of the session, learners will be able to understand the benefits and challenges of taking an F3 year in surgery. 2. Participants will be able to understand how to go about setting up an F3 year in surgery for themselves. 3. Learners will acquire knowledge about the personal experiences of individuals who have gone through an F3 year in surgery in different circumstances. 4. Participants will develop an understanding of the importance of achieving certain objectives, such as course completion and experience accumulation, during an F3 year. 5. By the end of the session, learners will be able to engage in a Q&A for comprehensive understanding and to answer any personal queries regarding taking an F3 year in surgery.
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Computer generated transcript

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The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

I'm waiting on the way, kind of red light. There we go. Ok. Um Hello, everyone. Thanks for coming to our we event tonight. So tonight, we're kind of doing an event on taking an after three year in surgery. Um Obviously, sometimes people plan to do, sometimes people don't plan on doing it, but this hopefully will give everyone a good insight into the benefits of it and kind of hard to get one set up for yourself um because it is still early days yet, even though people are probably panicking. Um So we have two lovely um future surgeons with us. So we have Sarah who's currently in Australia. Um And we have Aisling who is a core trainee at the minute and is a new mum, like brand new mum. So delighted to have the two of us, the two of them with us. So we will start with Sarah. Perfect. Go ahead. Perfect. Thank you, Kerry. Um So for those who um maybe know me already. Um I'm the peer mentor, mentorship, lead um within this society. Um And I've done a couple of talks to do with it. Um But the reason we're here tonight, I suppose is talking about um, your surgical F three year. Um So I have been working post F two in Craig Avan General Surgery, um with a lovely team there. And since kind of end of March time, then have taken a bit of time out, um, and done traveling. So, um I'm tuned in from Australia currently. Um So tonight is really just all about, um covering my experience um of an F three year so you can go next slide. Thank you. Um So we plan to cover why to do F three A bit about sort of planning or things that I think are useful to have in your head from maybe now, um sort of or as early as possible. Um A bit about my own plan of how I kind of approached taking an F three year. I've sort of very briefly touched on the sort of core surgical training application, but again, this isn't a talk about that. Um There will be plenty of talks about that from this society closer to the time. Um I've talked about pros and cons again, all in my opinion. And then at the end, um after myself and aisle's talk, we'll have a bit of sort of Q and A for anything that any one wants answered. So, um I do an F three year. So um I've included lots of different um points here so some might apply for you. Um Maybe you know, lots apply for you. Um, you know, it can be that you maybe don't know what you want to do. Um It can be that you have had, you know, you're keen to explore a different specialty. You maybe didn't get the F one, the F two choice that you wanted. Um, you've maybe completed a taste a week but are keen to get more experience before you kind of commit to apply. It can be that you need a bit of time to build a CV. So get audits, get presentations, get things that look really good for an application. Um It can be money wise if you have sort of big life events, weddings, houses, cars, things that need to be paid for. Um, it can be that if you're like me, you're keen to get a bit of traveling in, um, particularly with COVID affecting an elective. Um, you can feel a bit burnt out and that you need a bit of a break. Um, or that you can be somebody that is left sort of had applied and, you know, doesn't really have a choice for an every three year, I think no matter which points apply to you all are. Hopefully by the end of this talk, I can reassure you really positive and the year absolutely flies by and is a really something I would never regret and would actually encourage you to do. Um, so first thing then is sort of the plan or things that I think are useful for you. Um If you're thinking about an F three year or if you even want to have it as like a plan b um in the back of your mind. So put, be kind to yourself. Um Just because I think, you know, you go through first to fifth year and every year it's all very laid out what will happen next. You then do your F one, you then do your F two and you're kind of guided down a path. And I think you get to the end of F two and it's very normal to panic, um to feel a bit daunted. Um Nobody is kind of guiding you anymore. You have to kind of step out yourself and come up with something going forward or a plan for you going forward. And I find that a bit scary to be honest. Um And a bit daunting. Um So I think it's important to take a bit of time to actually think how far you've come, how much you've achieved, which is class. Um Look back on your F one F two year, reflect on maybe difficult experiences, things that have went wrong, things you haven't coped well with or that you have coped well with. Um So I think that's really important before you kind of look to progress on again for me. Then I um I am a list person. I like to write things down and take them off. So I had a list of everything that I kind of wanted to achieve this year. Um courses such as basic surgical skills and HL S they can be hard to get into, there can be waiting lists. Um And there's obviously a sort of monetary part attached to that as well. So an f three year is great to get, you know, time off to actually be able to attend these things and also pay for them. Um, which I found useful. I've included some dates here. If you are thinking of applying, I think it's quite useful to have even broad um kind of dates in your head going forward. Um If you're thinking about weddings or holidays or like me travel, maybe save them um until after these sort of major um kind of important date. So really from October time, um you're sort of thinking about your oral, which is your application um process. Um It's the same profile that you would have used for your F one F two. I think it was the end of October for me this year, but generally speaking from October have it in your head because dates can change each year. Um Think about, you know, the fact that you will have an exam in January, um don't book a ski trip or anything like that if you can or wait till after. Um and then interviews kind of February March time. Um And then if you're thinking exam wise, um, MRC S usually, um, they're sitting sort of January May and October time for your part. A, um, and also kind of as you're going, keep updating your CV. So anything you do add it in, so you don't forget about it. Um, I've included in the next slide, then just one important point, um, that I think it's important to note early, um, essentially and again, this can change year on year. But, um, certainly for the year I was applying, um, you can be considered overqualified for core training. Um And that is if you have over 18 months surgical experience from the end of F two, so anything you've done in F one and F two year doesn't matter or hasn't mattered in the past anyway. But if you've 18 plus plus months after your F two in core, you would be considered sort of overqualified. So it's important to just make sure, um when you're kind of, if you're thinking about locum jobs that you make sure you don't meet that threshold, if you do, I believe there are other ways and paths that you can apply, but it's just an important point to know um the next bit then. So this was kind of my plan or my list as such. Um So I put references at the top. So for my, um I was a trust locum within Craigavon. Um And for this job, even though I worked there as a trust locum or as af two doctor in uh f two year, I still needed references when applying for this job. Um So sort of get touch base with consultants or clinical supervisors early um and have your references ready so that when you're applying, you have them sitting ready to go. Um It's also good to have kind of a rapport with these sort of senior members of staff for your application as well so that you can say, you know, you can get references from them as well. Um An important question I think to ask yourself is, are you, you know, thinking about trust, locum versus locum agency perks um to both, um I'm sure you've all heard of the likes of direct medics. Um and there will be loads of agencies that um reach out to you. Um at the end of your f two year. Um for me, I was keen to go back to Craigavon. So it was a trust looking post for me, which worked great, but they can have different sort of benefits in terms of sick leave or um kind of study leave. So that's probably worth looking into and that will obviously change on a trust by trust basis. Um start your evidence collecting from now if you haven't already. So I've included a picture there of the um E log book app that you can get on your phone. This is essentially where you log any operation that you are, anything from observing, standing in the room scrubbed right up to scrubbed right up to perform, start to start to finish. So, um, log everything. Um, and I'll touch again why this is going to be useful to you, um, a wee bit later on, but the sooner you kind of start that and get used to it, um, the better, um, applying this year then. So I've put that as sort of, I suppose a big question, you have to kind of decide quite early on in your f three year. Um Because of those kind of, as I mentioned earlier that oral process starting kind of October time, um you do have to kind of hit the ground running. Um And I think for me, it was quite, it would have been quite daunting to apply as an F two. I think definitely taking a year to kind of just go at it all. Guns blazing was the right approach for me. Um But obviously everyone is slightly different, um, or has sort of different strengths and things on their CV. Um, read a list then as I'd mentioned before. So for me, it was I wanted to apply, needed to set my exam interview, wanted to do my part a and get sort of courses and things up and it's really just looking how, um you can kind of build your whole CV in terms of like clinical academic management and personal skills and that's all gonna be that's going to make your interview stations um really simple because you'll have already been thinking about these things and ticking these boxes. Um So my next slide then, um so this is just very briefly um about the core surgical training, um sort of what you need to know early on and I think the earlier, you know, or the earlier you're working towards it the better. Um And it's really to do with evidence required. This is mainly for England and this changes year on year. So this is by no means official or not subject to change. It's very much subject to change. However, it's a really good framework that actually Aisling had showed me on my taste a week, um that I work towards. So, um, it says here about your operative experience, generally, you know, if you're applying in England, sort of 40 or more cases would get you full marks. So that was what I mentioned with your E book. So just keep logging. Um But at the same time, you can be slightly sort of strategic with it in terms of once you've got your 40 you kind of know that you're probably going to be getting sort of full marks in that type of that type of area. Um But don't stop recording, you know, keep thinking ahead to the future as well. Um In terms of conferences, generally speaking, three is what in the past anyway, um has given you full marks. Um And then there's a couple more so just about experience. Um So if you haven't seen this before, I think it's really useful, um, it just breaks down each section and things that are really useful in terms of an audit. Um Really what they want is that you are the lead um person for a closed lip audit that's surgically famed um that you've presented um ideally regional or as broad as you can. So I think focusing on one good audit is probably going to be more useful than having maybe multiple audits that are sort of loose ends and not really tied up. Um So it's really just being strategic with your time um in this year. Um And then the next slide, please, Kerry. Thank you. Um Yeah, so this is just about kind of your training skills and qualifications as well. So get involved with this early um join societies, volunteer to teach. Um This society is a great one to get involved with. There's always events going on. It's very useful when you're applying. Um There's talks for the actual applying process, there's talks for your M SRA there's talks for exams, everything pretty much is covered. Um So make sure you're if not already signed up for this society um within Craig Van we teach in most weeks. Um and you would be given a topic and asked to present. So for me, I would always sort of make sure I was keeping a note of things like that as well just to build your CV and make sure you're keeping on top of CBD and things. Um So the next slide then is just briefly on sort of how we can keep ourselves um, in line with GMC on the year out. So, one big thing I think is useful is having an appraiser. Um Now the Southern Trust um, automatically allocated um me an appraiser um whenever I became a trust locum. So this was um, a retired pediatric um consultant who I would and still will contact and meet with. Um, and it's really just to make sure that you're kind of, you know, progressing as you want to. Um, you know, if you've any problems, any concerns, making sure you're logging CBD appropriately and it's, it's just, you know, it's good, I suppose to prove that you're actually trying to actively keep on top of things um on this sort of year out as such, um I've mentioned login CBD. So even on your phone, have a note section where you can, you know, quickly scribble things in if you take medical students for half an hour or do a bit of bedside teaching or teach something in theater. Um And then you can kind of record it all on a platform later on. It just means that you don't forget about those important things that all add up. Um make sure you're logging courses and things as well on your CBD. Um And just kind of let it build up. I've included a slide then for Royal College of Surgeons Edinburgh. So I found this really useful, um, as you can see in that screenshot there, like there's over 91 slides of loads of courses and events. So there are things constantly going on, um, both virtual and in person. Um So it's really good if you are wanting to build up courses or conferences, it's a really good place to kind of look. Um And see if there's anything for you. Um The online anatomy courses are really, really good. They use real cadavers, it's very interactive. Um And the basic surgical skills um is now in a Belfast venue so that for me was very handy. Um And you can also book exams and things through that website. So in summary, um and this is completely bias, obviously. Um I have shown that the pros far outweigh the cons for me. Um You know, so I suppose, you know, you're not in a training program, this is very much a year out of training. Um It can feel daunting, it can feel scary. You're kind of having to take a bit of a lead yourself. Um Generally speaking, you know, I suppose in terms of operation exposure trainees or there'll be sort of a, a thing that trainees would always get priority. Um Generally speaking in Craigavon, it's very fair. Everything is rooted, everyone is assigned to a place, there's never any kind of dispute or arguments. You get clinics, you get elective lists, you get emergency lists. Um And that works really, really well. However, obviously that's trust by trust basis. Um And it might be different elsewhere. Um So it's just kind of making sure that you're able to get as good of an experience as possible. Um But I think it's all about how you approach, you know, the situation can really help and show your key and show your hair to learn and show your hair because this is what you want to do um in terms of pros then. So a lot of these I touched on this is really just summary. So building your CV, get your theater time, start doing your first appendix, making a strong application so you can hit the ground running with the extra time, get exams out of the way. Um Use your money, do a bit of traveling. Um See the world um enjoy your flexible rota um sort of, you know, have a bit of a rapport with the surgical team that inevitably you'll probably be back working with. Um and sort of, you know, get your audits, get your courses um and take time to teach and get involved in societies around you um which are really helpful. So, um final hints and tips then so set a plan for yourself. Um reach out to people around you and try and just enjoy it. It will go so, so fast. Um I think you will look back and never regret it or never wonder why or anything negative about it. Um would be my advice. Um So we have a special guest with us today. Um So this is um aisle, so this is one of my colleagues. Um I've been working with, she is CT one and a brand new mum as Kerry had mentioned. So I'll pass over to Aisling. Hello, everyone. So there's gonna be a lot of overlap with what um Sarah has said already. Hopefully I can string um sentences together cause I'm quite sleep deprived at the moment. Um But it's going to be a bit more about um sort of my career trajectory. I've already had quite a convoluted path. So if there's anyone out there that's concerned, maybe they've had an cl year, they've had a career before. They've maybe had time out with sickness. Um If you really want to do an F three or maybe an F four like I did. Um don't, don't let that be a barrier. Um So a bit about me, um I'm act one in surgery. I'm currently on maternity leave. So this is going to be my third year out effectively. Um I took two years out between F two and CT one. And I was already a postgraduate medic. So you can see how the years are, are stacking up um already. Um But I think all these years out so far have only ever had a positive impact on my career, both as a professional and as a personal, as a person. Um So I'm, I'm really happy that I've took this time. Um So a bit about me, I studied biomedical science in Newcastle in 2012. Then went traveling. Um Then I worked as a biomedical scientist in hematology. And I decided I wanted to be a hematologist. So I went to medical school and somehow along the way, I decided that I absolutely did not want to be a medic and I would like to be a surgeon. Um So I graduated in 2019 and I had about five nice months of, of the normal world. Um And then everyone started talking about this virus and we thought this wasn't really gonna be much of a big deal and it turned out to be a massive deal and it took up about 75% of my foundation years. Um And this was a really hectic time because um the virus was evolving and we were doing the best we could with the information that we had at the time, but services were popping up coming down. Um There was no vaccines at the time. So the level of mortality that we seen was just horrific. It was awful. I worked in obstetrics at the time. So, um, for part of F two, so women were delivering and the husbands were only coming in, um, at the very, very end of labor. Um, so I found all of this really, quite overwhelming and I felt quite burnt out by the end of my foundation years and I decided quite early on that I wanted to take a year out initially. Um, so I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I knew I enjoyed the acutely unwell patient and I enjoyed surgery and I enjoyed A&E so I went back to an A&E department that I worked in. Um, and I wanted to sort of figure out if I wanted to be an A&E doctor or a surgical doctor and, and quite quickly, I decided that I was, um, definitely a surgeon and, and A&E wasn't, um, for me. Um, but I was delighted that I took a lo a year because I was engaged. I wanted to get married, go on honeymoon. I wanted to be able to take time off and not have to do 10 nights in a row or get into Barney with a ROTA coordinator. Um, so this was absolutely perfect. Um, so I got to the end of that year and I thought I'm having a really nice time, I'm going to take another year, um, and collect myself and then apply for surgery. Um, so like Sarah says, I went through all these processes, got my logbook. Together did the courses. Um And certainly your lo and pay can, can help fund um all those courses. Um So for F four, I applied to do a clinical fellow job in urology. I'd done urology as a medical student, um but not as a foundation doctor. Um And I just thought, why not give this a try? This will be fun. And I absolutely loved it. It was brilliant. Um Generally in urology, there are no sh Os you just have the registrars and the consultants. So I was coming in at a really fledgling level and effectively got one on one training. Um So I was really well supported, learned so much. Um And, and was taught loads operatively. Um And I came out of that job, I was the teaching lead. So I taught Queens and Jordan's Town students. Um And that's enough teaching to CT as a consultant. I've been told. So, always think ahead when you're gaining those milestones in teaching, look up, you know, I want to apply to be a urology reg. And I can say I've already fulfilled the criteria to be a urology reg in teaching. And I've been told that I've probably fulfilled it to be a consultant. So always look on at the next stage. Um So I got loads of teaching experience. I'm at here with one of the other registrars. Um I was invited to take part in audits research. Um So this was one of my audits, I was presenting um at the national conference and I have a paper in the works as well. Um, and just generally had a brilliant time and then went on to apply for core training, um, got pregnant and now I'm off on maternity leave with this little sleep thief. Um, so here I am on my third year out, I'm act one. So if you've, if you've had, you know, anything, whether that's sickness or other careers um that are prolonging um your journey, I would say do not worry about it and, and, and do what makes you happy um work on your own timeline. So, in terms of positives um professionally, there's loads of positives for taking a year or two out, um you get to explore specialities that you'd enjoyed as a student or a foundation doctor and maybe didn't get to do. Um in those terms, um you get to gain extra knowledge and skills and, and upskill in that area of interest. Um in terms of surgery, there are index procedures you might not have heard of at this stage, but for example, to apply to be a general surgical registrar, you need to be confident and do. Um there's a set number of appendicectomy that you'll have to do in urology. It's more about competence opposed to numbers and you have to be able to independently um do uh cystoscopies and stenting and scrotal explorations. Um So I have colleagues who did an f three year in general surgery and they have their numbers um, in appendicectomy to apply to be a general surgical registrar and equally, um, a lot of the procedures that you require confidence in to apply to be a urology registrar. I was able to gain them. And that's really beneficial because as a core trainee, I might not get a urology job, um, in core training. Um, so that would mean I would perhaps have to take another year on the other side. Um And I'm quite secure in knowing that I for the most part have, have covered those skills and I can concentrate on other areas of my CV. Now, um if you do another job such as A&E and you don't get a surgical job by no means, is that a disservice? Um I did ATL S there in January in every single scenario I had seen in real life in A&E. Um So there's a lot of transfer skills whether that's actually communicating with your colleagues, um taking referrals, um reducing fractures, doing hands on, you know, in, in certain local anesthetic, there's, there's so much to be learned in other areas and I wouldn't worry about that. Um If you were to do a surgical sho job, you could build confidence, working as a surgical sho before you actually become one. And, and that experience stands by you, as Sarah mentioned, you can build up your CV. So get involved in departmental teaching, medical student teaching, do your audits, they may lead to research and publications. Um So get stuck in with that and also making connections is really important. Um When I was preparing for my interviews for core training, um the urology registrars all mentored me in the run up to it. Um And again in, in Craig Ain, in the General Surgical department, we were the same with um our F two and F threes. Um A lot of us actually enjoy, you know, uh going through the interview questions with them and everyone look out for each other. So those contact are really important. Personally, you've so much more autonomy over leave. Um You can, particularly if you're local opposed to having a trust job, but you can choose um when you want to work. Um I was able to get a month off for my honeymoon and wedding. Sarah's been able to take a couple of months off to go traveling. Um So, so that, that's one less worry and stress. Um If you're feeling a bit burnt out at the end of F two, it can, it can give you a lifeline to enjoy work again, um Being able to choose who you work with, where you work, what specialty you work in is a real blessing. So, um I wouldn't underestimate that. And then a lot of people talk about the financial perks. Um Certainly locum in A&E I was much better off financially. However, my clinical fellow job, I was working 9 to 5 Monday to Friday doing no one calls and I was significantly working off um in that job. But in terms of opportunity cost, it was worth it for me because I was working in a department that I loved with really great colleagues who were very much invested in my career development and I got so much out of it. So um I don't regret that in terms of negatives. Um, it's time out of training. If, if you're, if you're concerned about the timeline, something to be aware of is specialties like general surgery and Ortho do mark against you when it comes to the registrar applications. So it's always worth looking that up year on year. Um If there are specialties that you're interested in, in some departments, you can feel less well supported, you're not a permanent member of staff, you're not a trainee. Um, certainly in Craigavon. Um it's not that way, um, in general surgery, but um, in the A&E department I worked in, um, the trainees were cherry picked for the training opportunities and um, if they couldn't find the trainees, then they would get the, the locums, um then to fill in afterwards. And I II don't disagree with that in some way. Um, but they would get all brought into the big trauma calls and we would be kept just to keep the department running and we were there for service provision and at times, you, you somewhat have to just accept that um There's a lack of stability. Um You can leave your contract at short notice if you're local. Um But in the same way your department can end your contract at, at, at short notice. Um some regions have scarce supply of work. So I've colleagues in England who are saying at the moment, local work and clinical fellow jobs are quite hard to come by. So I'd take some time just to, to research, um where you're wanting to, to work. Um What's quite topical for me is um, something that you won't come across really until it lands on your lap. But if you are a female trainee and you're thinking about having a family in the next year or two, it is worth looking at um, the maternity policy because if you take more than a year out of your training or of an NH contract, um you have to be back in the job for a year by a certain week of gestation um before you qualify for full maternity pay. And I do know a few female colleagues who've got caught out and have, have been significantly penalized financially and they've maybe missed out by a week or two weeks and it would be awful to be in that position. So, um, just bear that in mind. Um And then your time as a locum is not always fully counted towards your NHS. Pay scales. So, although I have two years above ct one, my increment is a year and a half, um sort of in advance if that makes sense. Um Because they condensed my A&E loe to 50%. Um I think that's a H HSE and I um ploy to dissuade us from, from going to the lo of life. But um it probably works out in the end anyway. Um But overall, I had a really positive experience from taking these two years out. Um Both specialties enriched my current practice. Um The consultants that I work with um have said to me that they can tell that I've had that extra time. So I think it does stand by you. Um And you can improve your work-life balance while improving your CV at the same time. And as I said, I've went the long way around life isn't a race. So don't let that dissuade you if it's what you want to do. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um Ashley and Sarah, they were great um very helpful for someone who's gonna be taking them after a year. Ok. Um So a few questions have come through, just kind of, you both mentioned, you have done kind of a kind of separate agency or like local work trust um Lo work in terms of kind of the difference between those. Is it more like study leave and sick leave or what kind of way does it differ I think, um, I think it does probably vary trust by trust. Um, I obviously only have Southern Craig Gavan experience. Um, for me, I was able to do, you know, get a bit of study leave, get a bit of, you know, cover if you were unwell and things. But I think generally it all kind of depends how the jobs advertised. So for Craig Gavan, it was always that you had to, if you wanted to do the general surgical sho job, um, you had to do it as sort of trust locum. Um, there was no kind of involvement of external agency um for it. So it made the decision easy for me. Um The pay can be slightly different per, per hour. Um, but you've always within any hospital, you know, you've like enhanced rates and you've plenty of shifts or plenty of ways that you can build the pay up to basically whatever you want it to be however hard you're prepared to work. Um, so I locum with direct medics in the first year and I don't think you get any holiday pay, you don't get any sort of employment um, safety net there. You get paid for the r you work and, and that's it. And you're paid really well. I think you're paid higher than, than trust los because of those circumstances effectively. Um I actually entered into a job share contract. So I worked every second week and this other girl worked every second week. Um, and then we were both able to, like pick up extra shifts and that worked out really, really well. Um, I could have took the full line if I wanted to. But, um, and I ended up doing more than full time hours anyway, there was loads of hours going. So that was great. Um, but then in contrast, my clinical fellow post was a, um, a year long post with the Southern Trust. Um, and I had full sort of employment protection. Um, but it was on the registrar rota and I was pre core so I couldn't do out of hours. And then that meant my pay was quite poor at the end of the day. But, um, it was a really good job and they both had their benefits. Perfect. Um, I think we applying for jobs. They do, they all tend to be advertised on the HSEN I website or, or kind of, did you hear with them? Yeah, I think that was a, um, advertised on, is it he jobs? And I, there's, yeah, something like that. Um, and then someone said how competitive or trust grade jobs that will vary from, from speciality to speciality really. Um, in terms of how references, um, how to make a good application for these. Um, I think if you are interested in doing surgery at all, you know, all your audits and research and, you know, courses, conferences, everything that you'd put towards your CST application. Um, mention that in your application form for your trust job. Um And then also just generally being enthusiastic, you know, that they can tell the difference straight away if there's someone who wants a job in this speciality and someone who's just looking for any surgical job. Um So, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, um references are, you know, go a long way if you can have someone senior level who can say that, you know, you've worked in surgery before you've shown a keen interest, you're still involved, you know, with kind of projects or research work or kind of any of that I think is really helpful and kind of speaks volumes. Um So if there's anyone that you could email that knows you and can kind of vouch for you, I think that's very helpful. Um and just keeping the CV up to date and kind of sending it across as well. Um I suppose there's not a whole lot else you can really, yeah. One thing I did was I reached out to a member of staff in the department that I knew from a, oh, this is where my tiredness is kicking in. I'm having word finding difficulties. What is the week called when you trial as a specialty for a week? Week? Yeah. So I met someone who worked in Urology on Taste Week and I just said like, what's the, you know, what's up to date? What should I know for my interview and they were able to say, like getting it right. First time is huge and I thought this was just for urology, but actually surgery across the board. Um, this is a, a big, um, thing at the moment and there they're looking into how to improve, um, services, um, surgical services and, um, just having a look at your specialties report and seeing, you know, what, what's the direction of travel for your special speciality, um, is, would be good. They wouldn't expect you to, to know everything that's in that report. But being able to drop in these blood buzzwords, like, oh, I've seen this in the G report, um, shows that you're interested and you're keen and you know what you're talking about, I think. Um, that's a good point about taster weeks as well. So if you haven't got the F two job, um, say you're coming to the end of F one year, um, even you might be able to still fit one in, in the last kind of month or two of your F two. But if you haven't already organized a taster week, you can do one, for each block. So there's kind of your three jobs in F two, you can take a week each in each block so you can take a total of three weeks, which would get you like all your, you know, logbook criteria. It could get you in a good sort of experience everything you would maybe need from that point of view. And I think for me that was another way to make good contact. So I did one an ent and I did one in urology. Um, and from that really, it was Aisling who sort of was very helpful in sort of showing me and pointing you the right way in terms of what you need to look at early, to kind of make sure you're getting a strong application. So, yeah, I think that's probably the best way throwing yourself into the departments in the best way you can. Mhm. Ok. Um, in terms of like timeline and actually getting stuff sorted, I know Sarah's probably different for you because you've worked in ga surgery. Um, last year, she might have already kind of had something lined up for a long time. But in terms of like, we're coming up to six weeks out from change over in August. Is there a timeline of when kind of jobs become available or? It's, it's difficult. I don't, we, I had sort of broached the topic before leaving because I always knew I was taking an F three a year. Um, I had kind of, you know, addressed the topic before leaving really, the rotation. Um, surgery was my second F two job. Um, but I don't think there's any sort of timeline. Um, but again, it's all just really using your contacts, I suppose. Um, generally speaking, for most trusts, I can say things don't always go exactly as they should in terms of your notice with Rotas or, you know, generally speaking, you don't always get your rota until much closer to the time. And that can be the case. Mhm. So, I think jobs are generally advertised maybe April time, um, or later. Um, so I think the, the urology job was advertised in April but then that seemed to be the first one and then the clinical fellow job sort of came, came out after and I think they, they put them out later because, um, you'll have a lot of people applying for core who don't necessarily get in and then they want to mop up all those, some of those people um who want a surgical job after that. So there, if you log on to HSE jobs, just Google it. Have a wee look and, and see if there's um, some going now. Yeah, I think in the meantime try and get your, try and get references, try and get everything CV updated so that you're just ready to send it, you're kind of ready to go. Um It's probably the best advice and if you've worked in a department that you've enjoyed working in, um, approach people like your clinical supervisor, your academic supervisor and just say, look, who do I need to talk to um, about maybe local here. Are there local posts? Can I come back? That's what Sarah did. Really? Um Yeah. And then there's a question just about applying for clinical follow and other jobs simultaneously while applying for co turning. So I can even kind of like at the minute, I'm on the waiting list for a co turning job, but coming up to change over time, I'm getting more and more kind of unsettled that I don't have a job at the minute. So I've been ring out like getting my references kind of getting everything sorted and contacting different departments that I want to work in, but they haven't finalized their trainee numbers yet, so there's no posts out yet. Um So I think it's something I was a bit nervous about having a backup in case I do get a training job. But I think everybody is very understanding that if training is something you've tried to get into and then you do get into it, then you, you can leave your plan B alone and everyone very understanding. So I think it's probably a good idea to apply for. If you see something coming up that you're interested in, then, you know, exactly. Consultants will never hold it against you for taking your training job at the end of the day. And I was in that urology job this time last year and I'd said to the department, like, if I don't get in, I was in the same position as you carry. And I said, like if I don't get in, I'll stay. Um And if I do get in, I'm going to take my training post. And when I got word that I got my training post, all my consultants were like, oh thank God, like they said to me, we don't want you to leave, but we're delighted that you've got this and please leave and take it. So no one would ever hold that against you and just put the applications out there. You know, they can only say no perfect. Um And then someone's asked what's a closed loop audit? Um or closed loop ti so audit, that's a two, it's two cycles. So you've done your first audit, you found you have results, then you're supposed to make a change and then you audit again. So you've closed your, your loop and, you know, hopefully you've made an improvement or maybe nothing's changed. But um that's, that's what they're looking for. They don't like people um collecting data for no reason or for no avail. Um So you want to try and make a change and then demonstrate an improvement and um I think sorry k OK. Was not everything. Another, another one. I just seen that question about a template for a reference letter. Um I don't know whether you um do you just mean what the consultant would write? Um Generally you just email your consultant and you just be a nice normal person and say hi lo remember me. Um would you mind being my a reference I'm applying for XYZ, tell them what you're applying for. Um, because then they can tailor their reference to, to that. Um And it's as simple as that. Really? Yeah, I think um for the Southern Trust, I think we did have a template but it was very like, um like essentially like a box. Do you have concerns about this person? Um and then getting them to sign it off. So it was very ii think it would actually look much better and it's probably better down the line for other things. If you just have like a headed letter, just something that looks a bit more, I suppose. Professional. Um, and yeah, exactly. Like telling them what you're applying for and things and you don't actually get the reference, I don't think in my case, I've never seen their reference. Generally they get invited into, uh, whether it's a hen I job system and they'll complete the reference in there. And so you don't see what they write, but maybe there are some jobs where you do see what they write and that's the same with applying. Like, you've no idea what they're saying, but you've just kind of built that relationship. Um, I saw someone say, how early should you ask, I suppose, like, as early as possible, as early as you kind of have made sort of, you know, a rapport with a good surgical team or have those contacts um, doesn't have to be surgery. You know, it could be if you're an Ed, you get an ed consultants, just any kind of, sort of senior members of staff to kind of, do, you know, hold over and say, yeah, you're a hard worker, you're good. You're going to add something to the team. So, um, sooner rather than later I would say. Yeah. And I'd say if you have a job where you get on particularly well with um, a consultant just to ask before you leave. Do you mind, you know, if I keep your mind in the future, can I put you down as a reference and then just give them the heads up when the time comes? Um, so that they can remember who you are. Um But generally, yeah, if you get unwell with someone, um keep them in mind. Yeah, everyone's normally very happy to give references. I also, I had like, I was embarrassed was like emailing being like, is it ok if I use you as a reference? And I was like, scared to log into the computer the next time and then they're like, of course, absolutely no problems. So everybody's happy to give you a reference and then even if they're not when there's gonna be someone else who will be exactly perfect. But I think that is everything. Um Thank you so much girls for your excellent talk. Um Both of you. I need some sleep. Sarah, you definitely need to go bed. You need as much sleep as you can get. Thank you that form that hopefully everybody will fill in and then we'll forward the feedback on to you in the next few days. Ok? Thank you so much. Thanks everyone. Bye.