Computer generated transcript

Warning!
The following transcript was generated automatically from the content and has not been checked or corrected manually.

Um Kegan and I were just talking and we kind of realized, you know, I think a lot of people are interested in getting involved in research and this, this really goes beyond orthopedics as you know, whatever uh kind of research any medical student wants to get involved in. Um, but no, uh II think Kegan and I have worked with a lot of medical students uh over the past couple of years and um I think we can both say we, I seen some people succeed and do really well, uh and others really not really like get into the rhythm and find their place and um maybe leave some bad impressions with faculty. And so this is kind of just like a compilation of kind of observations that we've seen and what we've seen from like really stellar people who have really hit it off whether that's, you know, doing orthopedics research or another clinical field. And uh you know, I just thought, II remember being, you know, a first-year medical student and not really, uh it, it was not exactly clear like, you know, how do I really find, how do I stand out uh working with, um, you know, is this, uh, am I being annoying, you know, am I not being forward enough and all those kinds of things? So, um we kind of thought it might be helpful, uh, to kinda give some advice on what we've seen. Uh, you know, people who really stand up with us and to, you know, through faculty, we hear them talk about the students as well sometimes and, uh, you know, there's commonalities between the people who do really well. And so kind of thinking about it, we realize we can kind of boil this down to the three A and this is common, uh, common like dogma in orthopedics, uh of how to succeed, it's be uh available and, uh of have the ability and I kinda took some liberties with the affability because that can mean a couple of different things and it kind of combined uh proactivity into that category. Uh But I think we kind of just go through this hopefully in another 30 minutes. Um, and just, uh, and I can kind of go back and forth with a discussion and if people have questions along the way, uh, feel, feel free to interject, um, and kind of go from there. Uh So I'd say, you know, first point, um being a team player and kinda knowing your place, you know, if you're a first year medical student coming into a research team, uh you kinda wanna be a little bit of a fly on the wall, I would say uh initially because you don't know how the group interactions work. You don't know necessarily like what, what is normal, you know, do things get sent to a statistician? What should be your role? Um is like how uh how casual versus how formal are things, you know, is it very? Yes, sir. You don't question the authority or is it more, you know, people bouncing off ideas between each other and uh being a little bit casual, you kinda wanna get a sense of that before you really start to jump in. Uh because I think you, it can be easy to maybe come off a little headstrong. Um Or I think I've seen students come in who have had research experiences kinda in other groups and they're used those types of uh the culture of those groups and they come into a new group and things are different and sometimes it just takes getting used to. But if you kind of jump in uh you know, both be forward and uh maybe you um can turn people off um from otherwise being excited about having you on board, taking anything to add to that. Oh, darling. No, nothing added that. II no, you're good. Sorry, I'm, I'm like about to pull into the driveway. Um No, nothing to add to that uh point. I totally agree. Um The uh the next point about um being sincere about your goals I was just kinda thinking about that one. You know, I think part of being that team player is being sincere about your goals. But also I think this early on, um you should really remain pretty openminded and, you know, be amenable to suggestions and, and critiques and um try not to narrow down too much, too quick kind of thing, uh be open to different roles, be open to working with different teams. Um You know, maybe not initially going straight into your primary interest, but um just being willing to work with, you know, what you can get and um showing what you can do so that you can kind of eventually uh narrow down if you interest there. Yeah. And I would say, you know, if your goal is to get a first author paper, you should make that clear because otherwise it might not happen and then you kinda leave the experience being, you know, oh I didn't really like get what I was hoping for out of this. Uh Or if you're really hoping to learn, you know, how to um how to do good scientific writing, like make that clear. So, uh when the people on the team are maybe ed giving you edits on your uh abstract or apps or your manuscript, you know, they'll maybe put a little bit more extra time into their edits and say, and explain, you know, why certain things need to be written differently instead of just fixing it themselves. Um, so I think that that can be helpful and as well, you know, if your goal is, you know, you wanna get, you wanna get involved, but you're not quite ready for, you know, primary responsibility of the paper. Maybe you'd be happy with just middle author having some um lower level involvement. So, like just to balance out your other time commitments, you know, I think being upfront about that uh is definitely good and I, I've never, I can't think of a single time where I've discounted a student or one of the faculty and said, oh, that student only wants to like, doesn't want primary responsibility. Like they're not coming after. Like, I think I speak for uh most of the people that I've interacted with when I say, uh we would rather have you be sincere about, you know, what you're hoping to get out of this and what you can put in, uh rather than maybe taking on more than you can chew or um kind of coming in last minute saying, hey, I was actually hoping to be first author on that. But up to this point, you hadn't done first author work and nobody thought that was like one of the things you had hoped for. Um So I think it can bite you in the butt if you're not uh the next one. You know, being honest when you're in too deep when you don't know the answer. You don't have time. You know, I, I've definitely seen this, uh, pretty frequently and, you know, it happens to me too, you know, like there's been times like during 1st and 2nd year where I was bouncing a, a bunch of different projects and, you know, I was trying to do all these things at the same time and I realized I was just in too deep, you know, there, I wasn't gonna be able to hit, um, or turn things around in a reasonable time frame and, you know, you just gotta take a step back and, you know, be, communicate clearly with your team and say, you know, uh I think I took a little bit too much on, you know, I can get this to, you get this back, you know, maybe in two weeks instead of one week. Um And if, you know, there's somebody else on the team that can pick up, uh the slack there, that'd be great. But, uh, you know, this is kind of where I'm at. I think people really respect that and appreciate that kind of communication. And most importantly, you don't wanna burn a bridge. You know, if you, uh say, you know, I'm gonna get all these things done in, in the next week and then it takes three weeks for you to do it or you kind of fall off and you never respond. That's really bad, you know, and that'll go beyond the research experience. You know, if you do that to the faculty, they'll remember that. Uh when you're coming back to rotate or when you apply for residency, they're like, oh, that's a student that, you know, was supposed to be writing that manuscript for seven months. And, you know, we still haven't seen anything, you know, don't remember that. And so, uh it's better to just say, you know, I took on too much. I don't think I have the time right now for this. You know, I don't wanna, and, and you put it in a way that um uh that comes from a place of humility, you know, you say II thought I could do it but, you know, I just uh don't think I can, like, balance everything I need to prioritize my class work. Nobody's ever gonna discount you for that. Yeah. II totally agree with that point. Um It's, you know, I kinda make mental notes of these things. It's not even, you know, in my mind like, oh, this person's a strong researcher, weak researcher just doesn't care about research. It, it's just mostly like a character note of like, OK, this person is very upfront about like, you know, priorities. Um you know, how much time they have and, you know, it's just the aspect of respecting each other's times and um you know, and, and efforts. Um you know, it's always disconcerting when you put in a ton of effort into something and it's not reciprocated kind of thing. Um, so just kind of being upfront with that. Um, you know, it, it, honesty is just always the best thing. Um, you know, you all work with a lot of residents and attendings and everybody's busy so everybody understands. Um, but, you know, just being, being honest is, is the way to go. Um, you know, and same as the, the next point, you know, don't go mi a check in every once in a while. It doesn't have to be anything excessive. And, um, you know, responsiveness and timing of checking in may vary by person you're working with. Um, you know, you might message them, you know, in two weeks just to let them them know where you're at and you might not get an answer right away by email. It just really depends on the person you're emailing. Um, but it's never necessarily gonna hurt you to check in every once in a while. I don't think you necessarily need a weekly report with most people. Um, most people get a ton of emails and they, you know, it'll just get buried anyway. Um, but it, but it couldn't, it couldn't hurt you. Um, you know, to at least just let people know what you're thinking and, and where you're at and how much you got on your plate. Yeah. And I would say, you know, if, um, if there's like a student on our team who's the one supposed to be uh drafting the main manuscript draft and, you know, he has all the data and they've got everything they need for it and I haven't heard from them in four weeks. You know, I start to wonder, you know, are they still alive? You know, did they forget about this? And where are they at? But like, two weeks is like, ok, you know, they're probably still working on it. So, I don't know, it probably differs uh between different people. But I mean, to me, I'd say 2 to 3 weeks is when I'm like, OK, you know, I haven't heard from this person in a while. I wonder how things are going. Um And maybe I would just check up on them. Um uh The next thing. So taking responsibility for scheduling and moving projects forward, I think this is like, this is what really helps make people stand out. Uh It's the person who, you know, maybe you send uh your manuscript draft out to all the faculty uh to review and it's been two or three weeks uh because, you know, it got buried in the inbox. People thought they're gonna get to it but they forgot about it. You know, you wanna be that one who's gonna taking notes and be like, oh, you know, I said that two weeks ago, I better it got buried in their inbox. Maybe I should just send a follow up email just to make sure you know, I didn't just get forgotten about, uh or if, you know, there's like a IRB in progress and it's been three weeks, you know, it could be, uh like since you've heard back, maybe just kinda check and be like, hey, I'm still really interested in uh working on this project where we have with the IRB is uh you know, just kind of checking in demonstrating your interest and demonstrating that you're on top of the things cause that's really uh some of that makes you stand out. Yeah. And I think like that point of taking responsibility is, is pretty notable and that kind of extends to, to everything, um you know, kind of realize um sometimes the importance of and you know what you're doing and um kind of the responsibility that comes with it, you know, like Kevin said, like, if you have the full data set, like that's a lot of power to have over a project and like, you know, kinda like with great power comes great responsibility kind of thing, like, you know, nobody can move forward um or kind of accomplish what they wanna accomplish if you're sitting on, you know, um the key part of the project. So, you know, just like, appreciate, you know, how much responsibility you're given and the fact that somebody entrusted you to do that job, um even when it, you know, seems less than ideal and, and work's piling up and you have a lot going on. Um, but, you know, I think when you, uh, get used to having that kind of workload and you kinda prioritize and, um, you know, uh, like these kinda sub bullet here, like keep track of your last status state. Um, you're following up kinda regularly and, and talking with your team, um, it becomes a lot more digestible and a lot more cohesive. Uh uh, then the next one, you know, uh I think this kind of goes under the category of being proactive. Uh So you can't just sit back and expect people to hand you opportunities, whether that's to present or uh get involved in other projects. You know, if you're interested, you need to make sure that's known. And these are kind of some of the ways you can do that, you know, maybe uh you're working on the paper and you're writing the discussion and you read about some other um interesting like paper that's kind of tangentially related. And maybe the data that you've been working on could actually answer that question as well. You know, uh Maybe you go do a little bit of a literature search, see if it's been done before already. Uh And if not, you know, maybe propose that to the group and say, hey, I was kinda reading about this and it seems that, you know, the data that we're using for this project could actually answer this other clinical question as well. You know, what do people think? You know, that definitely shows that you're thinking uh critically about the, the project and what you're working on. Um And that you have like a, a strong understanding of, you know, what the material is and opportunities um to answer other questions. And so I think that's definitely, even if it turns out to be something that, you know, oh, well, it's already been done before. Uh we're missing this part of the data to do this type of project. You know, I think it still stands out as, uh, being impressive, uh, from, you know, a team, your teammate perspective and the faculty as well and certainly presentations, you know, whether it's UF uh research day or, uh for orthopedics, there's like the Florida orthopedic Society and these other meetings, you know, I wouldn't necessarily just wait for people to come off and be like, hey, do you wanna submit this to this meeting? You know, if you can, you know, uh, maybe try to have, uh, some idea of or like what meetings you might be interested in trying to present to or submit your research to and ask like, hey, I had this meeting on my, um, on my mind for the, like a couple of weeks, I was wondering if, uh, we might be able to submit this project to it, you know, that kind of thing. And, uh, I'm, I'm sure people differ on this, but for me, I usually start thinking about it like a month before the uh abstract deadline. So when I start thinking about, OK, what can we submit to this? Um And then finally, you know, once you've uh kinda done a lot of the work for your project, say you're working with a bunch of other classmates and you finish your part, but you're waiting for them to do theirs. You know, you can always go to the team and say, hey, is there anything else I might be able to contribute to? Do you have anything else going on? Um That could use another hand? Um II think that definitely stands out as well as someone who is excited, um wants to get more involved uh and is ready to learn. So I think those are good ways to be impressive. Kegan. Yeah, I agree with, with all that. Um I would um really just emphasize the part about vetting the ideas first. Um You know, you don't have to like spend a crazy amount of hours or anything. But I think doing like at least a cursory search to make sure it's not been done before is, um probably the minimum expectation. Um you know, cause ideas are, are thrown around not infrequently and it's not that they're bad ideas but if it's been done before, um you know, it's, it's again just coming down to um saving everybody time and, and kind of efforts and stuff um to see if you know, do a quick lit search, see if it's been done. Um, I think you can certainly even, um, sorry, just jump in. You can, you can even, like, do some of like this lit search and maybe you find some other, uh, uh, papers that might be related, but you're not really sure if that exactly, like, answered the question already. You can even just say that, you know, like, hey, I had this idea. I did a lid search. I found these papers that might be related, but I wasn't sure, you know, what does everybody think like that would certainly um demonstrate that you, like, took the initiative to, to look into it and try to vet it first and I would expect that for sure. Exactly. II agree. Um You know, don't let it discourage you. Um But I just put it, you know, showing that you put in that little bit of work and attempted to understand goes a long, a long ways. Um You know, at least in my experience. Um All right, cool. Uh So we can move on to availability um to prioritize your mentors time. Um You know, at tending are just crazy busy when you kinda think about it. Um They operate, they do clinic, they have families, they're usually on committees, a bunch of them, um, peer review for journals. They, you know, it's kind of unbelievable and I still haven't totally grasped how they do all of this. Um you know, so just kinda consider these things uh be respectful of their time. Uh try to be accommodating when you can, um you know, try to do little things for them. Um, you know, offer to submit the manuscripts. Um If you haven't done it before, you know, spend some time looking up the journal guidelines and, you know, kind of submission rules. Um you know, and, and then, you know, just do your best to just do the little things to, to save them time. Um I mean, at times a hot commodity and it's what we have the least of, you know, through residency and attending ship. Um So anything you can to save people time was a really long way. Yeah. And my advice kinda would be like with meetings and calls and stuff like I would just kinda outline, you know, hey, um Doctor Hones, whatever, I'd really love to meet about to talk about this, you know, Monday. Um I'm free from this range of time to this range of time. Tuesday. I'm free from this range of time to this range of time. Um And you wanna kinda make it as large as possible and then they can kind of cherry pick like, oh, you know, I got this little slot, 30 minutes slot here where I'm driving home. Maybe we could call them, you know, and they can kind of pick the specific time versus you saying, like, how does um, 830 on a Tuesday work. It's like, you know, it probably doesn't, chances are. And so, uh, I think if you wanna be effective and demonstrate that you have, uh, that you understand that their time is limited and that you're trying to make the best use out of it. Uh, you really try to give them maybe even just the whole week and be like, you know, what, like Monday, I'm free from seven to noon and then again from five to like five to the rest of the night. And then Tuesday, like, if you just kinda like, try to outline that real quick, they can uh really figure out like exactly what would be the most efficient for them to meet with you. And I think uh they expect that and appreciate that. And then uh as Keegan mentioned a really good point about like submitting uh articles and stuff. Like, it can be confusing if it's the first time, like doing a manuscript submission or something. And there's a lot of things, you know, uh if you, if you start trying to ask questions for every single part of the main submission, there could be like 1015, 20 questions and you still haven't like, finished the submission yet. And if you're trying to go back and forth by email doing one at a time, you know, that'll, that's uh that's exhausting for everybody involved. And so you kinda wanna gauge like, hey, you know, maybe this is something um that I could ask, you know, a classmate about, maybe they can kinda give me some tips on it. They've done it a lot before. Um uh So something along those lines, um a double hand uh so another um the next bullet, so producing quality work uh before the deadline, you know, often there are no clear deadlines here. Um You know, it'll just be like, hey, uh you're working on this section of the data, you know, just work on it whenever you have time and I think it can be easy to uh forget, you know, that, hey, uh maybe the faculty and the team is expecting you to turn this around in maybe 3 to 4 weeks, but there was no explicit deadline. I think it'd be helpful to, to set one for yourself. And, you know, I kind of just gave this example uh for what I do, you know, there's a time uh during 1st and 2nd year where I was doing a lot of statistics uh for our group. And I would like, when the data got sent to me, I would try to drop everything and just turn it around as fast as I could. Uh One second, Keegan can you take over? Yeah. Yeah, no problem. Um Yeah, I mean, it's not necessarily like the expectation. Um I think any effort kinda goes a long way in that uh you know, and everybody's doing their best. Um, so it's not necessarily the expectation and everybody knows exams and everything are important. Research isn't, is, is one part of your application. It's not everything. So, remember that too. Um, but you will surprisingly find that people will not always be hounding you down for stuff to get it done. Right. A, a lot of it is going to be on you. Um, I was, um, you know, I guess, somewhat pleasantly surprised by that with the first project I did in med school. Um, you know, it was one of those kinda like my MSR P Doctor King where he handed over the reins and the project lived with me or died with me. Um And that's just how it was. Um And so take that, you know, for what it is, it, it's on, you take ownership of it, take responsibility of it. Um, you know, there's no set dead deadlines all the time. Um, just like life, everything's not always totally clear cut, you know, with hard deadlines and finish lines. Um So just, you know, kinda do the best you can take, you know, pride in, in your work and, you know, strive to, you know, better yourself and do the best you can with it. I'm sorry, I had to run, um, where did you leave off? Uh, we've pretty much finished with, uh turning things over. Ok, cool. Um Yeah, and I mean, just adding on to that, you know, if you can pick up some of the slack that maybe uh your fellow students got busy or, you know, maybe there's some other uh like a someone in like a class below you and that's a busy exam week. If you can pick up that slack, I think everybody on the team will definitely uh notice that, appreciate that a lot. And uh it'll really make you like, stand out as someone who um the team wants you on uh future projects. Um And then, so kind of talking about ability, you know, initially, I think most of our contribution is our time. Unless you bring some specific skill, you know, there's some people uh who maybe have a statistics background or uh did a lot of scientific writing based on, you know, where they went to college or what their major was. Um And there's some people who have uh you know, really good, like digital art skills. Um and one of those types of Softwares and that can be really helpful in a way for you to contribute to the team. But oftentimes, you know, if you don't, um your main contribution is time until you eventually, you know, have worked on maybe a bunch of projects in this field. And you start to develop some expertise and can become kind of valuable that way. Um But you have to remember that, you know, your contribution is your time. So uh you gotta try to find ways to carve out uh chunks of that to really contribute. Um If you want to, if you wanna contribute meaningfully, and I think it can be easy to try to get involved in a bunch of different things at the same time initially. Um But sometimes it's better to, to ease in start with one project and maybe try to get an idea of, you know, what is the time commitment for me going to be and for this specific project, because people will say like, 06 hours a week, 15 hours a week, whatever. Um but different projects vary a lot and uh what's kind of required. And also like the timeline, like there's gonna be uh stages of the project that require more from you and then other periods of time where, you know, maybe it's the resident or the fellow who's uh kinda taking lead on the writing. And so you're uh you're not quite as needed uh at that moment. And so trying to gauge like what stage your project is at and try to anticipate like, OK, in the next couple of months, you know, uh my time is really gonna be needed. Uh But right now it's not things like that, it can kinda help you um better uh I would almost say like load share or like balance out like where your time uh what, what your time uh contribution is on a bunch of different projects and you can kinda get a bunch of things done at the same time or be involved in many different projects at the same time, if you kind of load, if you anticipate like when the busy parts are gonna be. Um Yeah, I agree. I mean, just speaking from my experience when I was a first-year med student here, um I had a cursory understanding of stats. Um but the, the kind of turnover for using a departmental statistician was pretty long and I wanted to get more work done. Um And this was before Kevin was at UF College medicine. Um So I watched a bunch of youtube videos, um taught myself how to kind of do the basic stats so that I could finish some work that way. Um And then for writing purposes, um, you know, I looked, I in PUBMED and um pulled up like a bunch of kind of more recent papers from my mentor um and crafted my writing kinda to the, the style of the group and, um, you know, and, and kind of how they were doing things and that was kind of what ended up working for me best. Um That I would second that, you know, uh I think, I mean, II was doing kind of the same thing when I first got involved, you know, I didn't know exactly what uh type of statistics were common and were expected in an orthopedic like research paper. And so I just, you know, pulled up JB Js or uh one of the site journals and uh kinda look at similar papers or most recent papers and try to look for, you know, trends like, OK, um these tests seem very common. So basically just um doing by copying, uh what's being done before and being accepted by journals and then at some point, uh as you're doing that, maybe try to read about it and make sure you're making an informed decision, you know, uh it seems like, you know, at test would be appropriate here. But let me just double check, you know, what are the assumptions of at test and make sure it makes sense my data. And if you keep kinda doing that, like guessing what the right kind of maybe statistical test is and then reading about it and being like, OK, yes, this makes sense or, oh, I think maybe something else would make more sense. Eventually you start to get to a point where you're like, hey, actually, ii know what's right here and I'm reading these other papers and I think they're wrong and um eventually you'll get there. But I think, uh by imitating, you know, what's being done a lot at first, that'll kind of give you an idea of uh uh what is needed. And the same thing for the writing, you know, there's a manuscripts are not uh creative writing by any means. Uh Maybe in the discussion, things can get created, but for the most part, there's a very specific order and uh type of information and uh mannerism of stating it that is expected. Um And, you know, it's just the way doctors and scientists work. You know, we think in these very clear patterns, the same thing when you're presenting a patient, you know, you want uh Mister X as a 42 year old male with a history of, you know, it's the same thing that we do with that is those for uh manuscripts. Uh People are expecting this format. So you just need to figure out what that format is and it's uh I mean, you just look at the recent articles in the journal you're trying to publish in and they'll, it'll become apparent to you real quick and start to see patterns and feel like, OK, they're gonna do this, they're gonna say this first followed by this, you know. Uh So you kind of pick up on that and then seeking feed. 01 more thing I was gonna say about the knowledge of the topic. Um II definitely think, you know, there are some projects where you don't need to know a ton, but there are that there are others that do. So if you're working on like a systematic review and you're figuring out inclusion exclusion criteria, you kinda need to know what those mean because sometimes you need to do some interpretation um of these papers. Um And it's not just clearly stated, you gotta, you know, think about it a little bit. And so, uh, sometimes it becomes necessary to teach yourself some of this information because it's not gonna be like you learned it in med school already. Um And some of this stuff is gonna be, you know, quite specific to the field. And so what I found really helpful is V Medi it's like the youtube for orthopedics. It's actually found in for orthopedics, although it's been trying to spread to other fields. Uh, but it's V Medi vu M EDI, it's basically the youtube orthopedics. You can learn anything in there. There's a lot of uh conferences and paintings, publish all their talks on to Etti. And so you can, I mean, that's, I've learned so much. Uh I just like watching videos like it's youtube on there and then of course over the bullets and all those uh um uh classical face that we think about. OK. Yeah, II agree with all that. Um The only thing I would add depending on who you're working with, kind of the responsibilities the authorships. Um The matter of writing you do it, it just varies pretty greatly. Um, you know, I guess, uh, kinda historically, it's for, um, kind of big papers and big data studies. It's more so that uh the y younger folks and less experienced ones will write the introduction, contribute some of the materials and methods kind of thing. Um Sometimes the results Um And then kind of more senior folks will do the discussion uh cause this interpretation of the data and it kind of requires um you know, a good amount of knowledge of the goals of the study and what the results mean in the, in the context of the field, which is um pretty hard to understand when, when you first start off. Um And that can obviously affect authorship uh regardless of how much time or effort you put into it. Um So don't be discouraged by that. Um On the flip side of that, uh some folks will let you have free reign and, you know, be first author and take on as much of the manuscript as you want kind of thing. Um You know, don't always feel pressure that you have to be the leading expert in that field the first time you try, but um certainly put in the effort to try to be the expert and understand where they're coming from. Um But obviously, that's the benefit of being a part of a big team is people are there to offer their insight and, you know, you can't gain 30 years of experience in an overnight pub med search. So, um don't be discouraged by that and eventually you will pick up on things over time and, you know, kind of like, um Tim's comment there, like the more you read, like y you, you'll be amazed at, at how much you kinda learn, it's, it's all kind of an effort thing, I would say. Um, you know, the first time I wrote a paper I felt like a fraud. Um, and, and now at this point, like, you know, like Kevin said, it's, it's very regimented and, um, there's, there's a science to the science, right? Um, and that's part of what II, like about the research is that I think, you know, it just kinda, once you get used to it, it, it kinda makes sense. Um And there's, you know, not a lot of weirdness about it per se. It, it's, it's a lot of patterns and things that just make sense and, and go together. Well, yeah, and I think that dovetails nicely to the next part is uh seeking feedback. So, like, you know, if you're responsible for any of the introduction of the discussion or, you know, you're supposed to be reviewing articles or something, like it's totally OK to say, you know, I'm not sure if I, I'm understanding this right. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. Um And, you know, I don't wanna make any mistakes and compromise the integrity, the data or uh put a bunch of effort into writing this paper but doing it all completely wrong and then someone's just gonna rewrite it, you know, II think it's completely OK to say, uh I guess in the first example, you know, maybe you wanna go through, uh if you're doing a systemic review and you're doing inclusion exclusion or you're pulling out um data points for the study, doing a few of the studies and messaging, you know, someone on the team being like, hey, uh I just wanted to check if I'm doing this, right? I did a few of these. Do you think you could like, give it a quick look over? That's totally OK. And then with the manuscript, you know, if you wanna, you can definitely create like an outline of like, OK, uh I'm writing the introduction. I'm gonna do the first paragraph. It's gonna be about this and these are the things I'm gonna, these are all the points I'm gonna mention um or like same thing with discussion. Like I think this paragraph should be about this, this one should be about this, you know, I, when I mention uh some of these other studies, you know, you can definitely like create an outline and say, hey, this is like, kind of what I was thinking. Can you just um like, am I on the right track? Does this look right? Um I think it's impressive when people seek feedback and rec they rec when they recognize that, you know, maybe uh they're in new territory and they don't necessarily know the right answer. And so uh they try, they take the initiative to try um but ask for feedback as well because, you know, I think this, this is not just for research, this is for surgery in general, you know, faculty want trainees who they can trust to uh operate kinda at the, at the zone of their proximal development at the, at the the boundary of what they can do but making sure patient safety is um is maintained. And so, I mean, I kinda think about research in the same way, you know, I want you to be able to do as much as you can with the data or with the writing, but not to the point where maybe we start introducing the stakes and we compromise the integrity of the study. So I think about it similarly and you just come from a point of humility and say, you know, I think this is right. I've been looking at other examples, but I just wanna make sure that I'm doing this right before I uh move on. I think that's uh very respectable uh and appreciated. Yeah, I agree and feeding off of that previous points and the next point, like you just gotta at least like try, you know, try and just the minimum. Um And, and I think part of trying, um even when you don't necessarily understand what the discussion points is um at a bare minimum trying to reference uh kind of the mark papers from your lit search, you know, uh the highest yield ones and as much of the, you know, kind of relevant literature that's recent uh to those points. Um, at least getting that somewhere involved in a discussion. Um, cause I think that both shows that you're putting in the time, uh, you're saving somebody else time by not having to like them, not having to go back and find papers to reference. Um, and then I think that feeds in the next point of learning from the high quality, uh, literature from kind of the esteemed folks. Um, you'll start to stumble, you'll fall down the occasional rabbit hole, of course. Uh, but you'll, you know, you'll start to learn, um, from reading some of these quality papers, you'll, uh, start to form your own opinions, uh, both on topics and on what constitutes good and bad research, um, and good and bad studies. Um, which is kind of interesting. You, you know, initially you won't feel you can make that judgment and they don't read enough papers. Um, you know, uh, you'll be super impressed by something or you'll be like, this is total junk. I don't know how this got published and I can't get my study published. You know, you get kind of salty. Um, but, uh, you know, part of maturing is forming your own opinions. Um, and then it, it, you know, the sub points there, it gives you, um, ideas for formatting and style. Um, you'll come across stuff and, you know, you'll be like, wow, I really like how they did this. Um, I really like how they worded the materials and methods or, you know, I think we should follow this example for the next study we do with this data. Um You'll just get a lot of ideas from it. Um And it'll make you better um as a researcher, as a writer, as a kind of clinician. Um you know, it just kind of gets the juices flowing. Um you know, and then just getting familiar with the science, getting comfortable with interpreting data and, you know, being comfortable with the data that's out there that can influence your practice. Um You know, in your decision making, I think it is, is all part of the, you know, maturing process and becoming a clinician and a surgeon and taking care of people. Um regardless of whether you intend to do research or not as a resident and as an intending um the literature, you know, suggests how we should take care of patients. Um you know, so you, it's still something you need to be familiar with and um patients will ask you specifics. Um And so knowing numbers, knowing data um is, is certainly helpful in, in guiding your patients down the right treatment path and um you know, getting them to fully understand why you are suggesting a treatment plan or not. Yeah, and that's something that you'll see kinda like as you go on. And I think, I mean, nobody's gonna expect you the medical student to know data, but something to think about in residency, you know, if you're in Pete's Clinic and you can tell the patient, you know, if you don't get this fixed, you know, 10 years down the line, this is gonna be the consequence, you know, that can be really powerful and demonstrate, you know, you know what you're talking about and you're providing evidence-based medicine. The last point there about the scientific writing articles, there are a few papers I think can think of like three or four from like editors in orthopedics that basically provide best practices on how manuscripts should be written. Um And I spent a lot of time like reading those when I was trying to like really figure out what are, what are the best practices, what is the most effective way uh to kind of communicate science and so those can be helpful. Um I don't have them off the top of my head, but uh if someone wants them just feel free to reach out. Um And I just wanna lastly end on the Matthew effect, I'm not sure that this is like something people hear about all the time. Um But it's, it, I feel like it's so true in research, you know, especially when you're working on teams. If you demonstrate that you're really competent and you work really hard, you gave, you will get more and more opportunities thrown at you and it's just gonna snowball until the point where you have, you know, more papers than you feel like you can handle it at the same time and more research opportunities than you ever thought you, you wanted. Um It, it's kind of just one of those principles of how things work out. And so it can be frustrating at first cause you know, when you have zero, you want one but you'll get to 100 and there's like another 20 waiting for you and you're like, oh, I don't want that. Um, I really wish I had that when I had zero but, you know, it's just kinda one of those, uh, natural principles of how things work. So, just something to kinda keep in mind of how some of the stuff ends up working, you know, that there's some surgeons out there with like thousands of, you know, pub med index papers and it's really this effect. Um, so with that, uh, we can open up the question, sorry, it took a little bit longer than, uh, we had hoped. We thought we could do it in 30 minutes. But.